Humanizing Interactions Using Curiosity & Empathy With Daniel Oppong

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Daniel, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Yeah, it's my pleasure to have you. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. So I'm Daniel, the founder of the Courage Collective. The Courage collective is a DE&I consultancy. We got our start in 2020. Really quick context on my background, so I come from pretty untraditional path. Got my start in nonprofit, then I went up to Gonzaga and went to grad school, studied organizational leadership and then moved to Nashville where I took a job in venture capital, which is hilarious because I had never even heard of venture capital before I got there. And so they hired me. I was head of People and talent, had a quick stint in tech, and then went on to start the Careers Collective. I think largely because I wasn't seeing the kinds of conversations I wanted to have around equity and inclusion and felt like there was a meaningful opportunity for us to create a new angle. So took the leap and been doing that. And then I also have a company called Boundless, which is focused on creating access for black and brown folks in marketing, consulting and tech.

Appreciate this work. It's a really important work. And I think what's interesting about hearing your background is that you came from the business world like a traditional business role, and then you transitioned. Here you're using negotiation and conflict resolution in both of those capacities, but now you're still using it in DE and I. And so when you think about that type of work as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion, what do those types of Negotiations look for you day to day?

Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost, it's when we're identifying clients that we want to work with, that's where we start. And I think about negotiation as it relates to, are we aligned at a values level. Are we looking for the same thing out of this work? Right. I think one of the things that we saw in the wake of the murder of George Floyd is a lot of companies sprung into more of a reactionary mode and they were looking for a quick fix or a check the box type of action item. And for me personally, that's just not the type of work that I'm interested in. So when it comes to negotiation, I'm having a conversation with the prospective client and very quickly I'm like, are we aligned on why we're doing this first and foremost? Because if you're looking for a check the box, we're probably not the best vendor for you. We are interested in meaningful impact and change. And so that's probably the first negotiation we have. And then you go into the negotiation of the scope of work. What are we trying to achieve? Are we aligned on kind of the outcomes and then go from there. So that's where I would say we start.

Oh, this is good. This is great. All right, check this out. So essentially what I'm hearing is that when you approach a negotiation with a client to become a vendor, you're trying to find fit first. And so you're not just looking at the deal terms. You're saying, all right, partner wise, are we a fit? And I think that's a bit of a different perspective because I think a lot of times people get into that feeling of need. There's this deal escalation. Oh, there's a prospective deal right here. So my deal, my job is to close the deal. That's how I determine a win. But it seems like you're evaluating the quality of the deal differently. So I want to go deeper into that. So when you're thinking about fit, go deeper. What are you looking for?

Yeah, to me, maybe I would reframe instead of fit and say alignment. Right. So, like, it's alignment at a values level. And I think what that means for me is like, I want to make sure that our why is connected. And part of the reason that's important is because if we are trying to pursue specific goals, like the essence of De and I work is usually it's involved, it's human centered, it takes a lot of work, takes resources, et cetera. And so, for example, if the starting point is the business case for De and I, which is like, if you do this, it'll improve your business results. I'm like, I don't know that that's the starting. That's not the starting point for me personally. Right. And so if that is their primary why for getting into the work and they start to do their training and they do a survey, but they're not seeing results in the near term, then they're going to say, I'm not going to invest in this any longer because it's not successful. Whereas for me, I'm looking at transformation and broader impact. And I'm like, okay, if we're actually looking at transformation, that's going to take a little bit more time. It's going to take reframing the way that we approach some of these things. 1 Unconscious bias training isn't going to get us there. We have to really be invested for the long game. So that's where I start. And fundamentally, when people come and they just want to tick the box, we're not going to have the same measures of success. Which is why starting at values alignment is most important to me. From there it's like, okay, we can expand, we can explore different perspectives and points of view, but if we're not looking at success in the same way as determined by our alignment at a values level, it's a lose, lose for both of us.

That makes a lot of sense. I think that's really important. Right. Because again, we have to start about, start at that values alignment. And of course we can see how that that manifests itself in a meaningful way with the work that you all do. But I think all of us, when we think about the deals that we're trying to make day to day in our personal lives and our professional lives too, there needs to be values alignment a hundred percent. Because even if you get the numbers right, if the values are not aligned, then the deal is just going to crumble and it's just a question of now or later happen. So we need to get that in line. And so for you, let's say you run into a situation where you have a prospective client and you recognize that they are approaching this in a more transactional type of way, Business case, nothing else. And there's clear misalignment. Do you try to persuade them to approach it differently or are you just trying to get that information to recognize probably not a fit? I'm going to go a different way.

I think it depends on the context. Right. And it depends on who we're relating to. I would say sometimes there are people who are maybe at the highest level of the organization. Maybe you're talking to the chief people officer or the CEO who actually have a little bit more, let's say, authority to implement change within the culture. So when I'm interacting with someone at that level, part of my M.O. is like, how can I introduce a new way of thinking about this work? Whether or not they hire us as a vendor, I want to introduce, hey, the old way didn't get us to what we wanted. And so if you think about it this way, this could actually drive more meaningful human centered results. So that is kind of the angle that I approached depending on the level. Now if I'm talking to someone who, you know, maybe is, let's say a middle level manager and they don't have as much deciding power, I want them to feel heard and seen and empowered. But ultimately they're not necessarily going to be the ones who make the final decision and can shift the culture. So I think it's usually I want to assess and understand who has decision making power. What then becomes my responsibility in this interaction. So that's usually how I think about it. I don't like to persuade. I don't want to tell you why equity is important. That's not the business that I'm in. I'm not trying to convince you as to why you should foster an environment of belonging. If that's the conversation we're having, we just aren't starting at the same point. Right. So that's a whole other thing. And I know that some consultants and clients and whatever, like, they like that. They like coming in and being like, no, you need to prioritize this. And I'm like, if we can't agree fundamentally that it's a priority, probably not the best person. Because I'm interested in impact and transformation. Not like the very basic, we can't, we don't know where to start and so help us. Da da da. I want to think about it big picture and think about the impact that we want to have. So that's usually how I approach it. And hopefully I'm talking to someone who can help us drive that.

Absolutely. And that makes a lot of sense. And it's really helpful for you and your team to have that clarity as well. Because I could see, for instance, let's say you bring somebody else on and then they say they like to use their persuasion skills. Oh, these people aren't approaching it the way that we do it. So I'M going to persuade them. Right. But I think it's really important for you to have that clarity for yourself and other people. So everybody knows how and when to use those persuasive skills. Because I've done the same thing with my team. If there's a. Not values alignment, then for the sake of my team and their mental health and their wellbeing, then there's certain people we don't work with and I give them the ability to say no. And so it's important to remember negotiations, the art of deal discovery, not deal making. We just shouldn't feel forced to make deals that should have never gone through.

Yeah, I love that point. I think about the idea that who you have to be or who you have to be to get the deal is often who you have to be to keep it. So if you show up inauthentically to get the deal, then you're having to sustain this level of inauthenticity to keep the customer happy. And you're the one who's suffering on the inside. Right. And so for me, I'm like, nah, I'm going to show up authentically off jump. And if we work, we work. And if we don't, that's okay too. There's probably someone out there who can support you better. So that's just one of the, I guess, values that I have personally.

Oh, this is good. So Daniel, this gives me an opportunity to bring back something I haven't done in years. You just reminded me a five star point. And so there every every once in a while somebody says something on a podcast, I'm like, that's the one, that's the point. So listeners, if you like that point, make sure to give us a five star review because I don't ask for them enough. So please, if you like this episode, give us a five star review. So Daniel, that's my five star point. That's really. And I think this is something that we need to consider not just in the business world, but also in our personal lives. I've never heard it articulated in that way, but it makes a lot of sense. I think back to some of the episodes we had on people pleasing. Sometimes you have that people pleaser inside of you and you keep on making these concessions. Nobody knows you're making those concessions. And then you have to in order to maintain the relationship at the same quality. You keep on making those concessions and you're killing a part of yourself sacrificing yourself in order to make somebody else happy. They don't Realize that you're sacrificing your authenticity for their benefit. It leads to you kind of like snapping later on because you're just so mad all the time. And people are like, I didn't even know you were upset. Why didn't you just tell me? Right? And you're so right. Because we have to be authentic in our approach and recognize that we want that authenticity to exist and be at the forefront of our interactions with the other side throughout the duration of the relationship. And if we're making those types of sacrifices, especially in our personal lives, to maintain friends, relationships, those type of things, just recognize there is a price to pay. At some point it will break down.

Yeah, I think you lose your authenticity. And then I think the path forward becomes like, either you end up resenting the thing that you compromised to get, or you feel trapped in it. Right. And so for me, I'm like, I would rather show up authentically from the very beginning. And again, if it works and it evolves, amazing. And if it doesn't, that's okay too. Right? Like, I don't have to like what we have and what we do and even who we are. Maybe there's a level to which it's available to everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's for everyone, and that's okay. So I think transcending scarcity, not feeling like, oh, this is the only deal we're ever going to get, I would rather do 10 deals that I really, really feel aligned with and excited about than do a hundred that require some level of compromise to maintain. Because ultimately that's going to erode something internally. And that's not, for me, it's not worth it. Right? I think, yeah. There's no dollar amount that is worth your level of authenticity and inner peace and alignment. So that's kind of the point of view I come at this with.

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Absolutely. I think that's great. And one of the things that you talked about is your human centered approach. And this goes back to what we were talking about before when we were kind of game planning for this episode. You talked about the need to humanize interactions versus thinking about it in terms of transactions. Can you go a bit deeper in what you mean there?

Yeah, for sure. I think about just how so many of our interactions these days are pretty transactional. Right. It's focused on an exchange. What are you doing for me versus what am I getting to you? Getting from you? And we've missed the art of connecting with the human experience. Right. So even just meeting you today, I'm like, there's a unique collection of experiences you've had that no one else in the world has had. That inherently is beautiful. Right. It's worth creating space for. It's worth creating space to see and engage. But if I'm only coming to this for what I can get from you, I totally miss the opportunity for meaningful connection that could be profound and transformational. So when we look at this through the context of DE and I work, there's a quote I love that Dr. Crystal Jones says. She says there's a big difference between the ideas. All are welcome here. And this was created with you in mind. The latter of which is a much more human centered approach. Who is coming to our organizations and how can we uniquely design our culture with their experience in mind? As opposed to, this is just transactional. You get a check. Here are the things that I need you to do. Inherently there is a level that work is transactional. But what would happen if we infused attention for the human experience into that equation? I think it would be much more meaningful. And so, yeah, I think for me practically, I want to create space for people to be people and engage them at that human level. And my hunch is it will create much more meaningful and substantive things than if I approach relationships only transactionally. Right. So that's kind of the approach that I apply both to my personal life and to work.

Oh, this is great. And I think about quotables. You quoted somebody, but I was saying, Daniel, like the quote you said before, that's the one I want to focus on. That's good. A unique collection of experiences that only you have. And I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it because you're right. It's like every single interaction, every single person that you have is unique. They have a combination of life Experiences that make them different from everybody else in the world. And that's a fascinating type of thing to cherish the opportunity to interact with this person because you're never going to see this combination again. But then they're ever evolving. Right. So I think that's really fascinating. Now we can understand just semantically the words that you said. Okay, I'm going to have a human centered approach. I'm going to humanize this interaction. I'm going to focus on this person. Now, people can understand that, but how do we operationalize that during a conversation?

Yeah, for me it's curiosity and empathy. I know you spoke about curiosity in your, in your TED Talk. That's a value core value of mine. Right. So I think about how can I show up with curiosity and invite the person to engage holistically, show me who they are. Right. So I think curiosity and empathy are two fundamental things. Part of how that looks for me, when we think about operationalizing, I'm very curious. So I ask a lot of questions. Who are you? What are you bringing to this moment? How are you feeling? Like, how do you see the world, those types of things. And not to determine whether I agree or disagree. Right. Like, that's where it gets into transactional and binary. I'm just asking because I'm curious to know about your unique collection of experiences. Right. So that's where I start, I think empathy, for me, it's the idea of creating capacity to understand and hold space for someone's unique experience as well, which is a pretty profound and meaningful thing once you experience it and not rushing to judgment. Right. Like I think about how each person has the capacity for both great and terrible things. Right. And so I want to create space for empathy to understand the human experiences and what were the, the moment that brought you to where you are, how you, how you behave, et cetera. So that's how I operationalize it. Leading with curiosity, creating space for whatever they share to just understand and to know people better.

This is great. And I'm thinking about what you said about curiosity, where you said you're going to invite them to engage. You're not forcing them to engage or pressuring them, like, or extracting information. No, you're inviting them to engage because you genuinely care, you genuinely want to understand it. That's important because a lot of times people can, people can be curious, but that curiosity can really be more a tool to either, like, set somebody up. Right. Or to, you know, really just further our own objective. And so it's really important to not only be curious, but frame your curiosity in a way that makes the person feel psychologically safe when it comes to meaningfully engaged. And so I'm sure you've probably run into some people who are skeptical where you ask a question. They're like, why does Daniel want to know how I'm doing? Why does he want to know how I see the world? There's probably a wrong answer here, right? So at the beginning of those interactions, when you're getting somebody to trust you and buy into your process of the way that you communicate with this human centered approach, what are some things you do to help them to feel more comfortable, engaging?

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think that we. One of the things I go back to often is this idea that people know where they feel seen, valued, heard, accepted, free. Like people know where they can be their authentic self. Right. And so I think, first of all, people aren't used to just being asked questions with curiosity about themselves. It's like a lost art even for me. Like someone who's super curious. It's interesting how sometimes people just don't even know how to reciprocate asking you a question about you. So I think that in and of itself is a lost art and kind of a revelation for people when you just invite them to share about who you are or who they are. So I think that's point number one. And I think as far as getting over skepticism, I think it's listening intently so actively and not listening to respond necessarily, but listening to understand. So I'm listening to engage and understand. And usually that's evidenced by potentially asking a follow up question. Oh, this is what I heard you say. Tell me more about this. Oh, that's really cool. I had that experience as well. I would love to hear how that impacted you. Right. Not a kind of cul de sac question where we just come to the end. Oh, that's it. Thank you for sharing. Turn around and go back. Right. How do we invite something more expansive? That's the thing that I'm curious about. And again, I think not everyone, which is okay, feels inclined to share parts or aspects of who they are. But I do love the idea of creating the opportunity to invite people to engage and even meet themselves. I think there's something about meeting and connecting at a human level. Me meeting you introduces me to myself even more. And so there's something really powerful about that. I think about how I've heard it said, you can only meet other people at the level at which you've met yourself. Right. And so I think about, I want to continue to create those spaces where I can meet myself and meet others in a meaningful way.

This is good. There are so many quotables here. You're so right. That's a really fascinating way of thinking about it. One of the things that I've started to do when I'm having questions, asking people questions, is that I'm trying to essentially not act as Kwame the negotiator, but try to be Kwame their internal voice. Because a lot of times what ends up happening is I can recognize that maybe especially in the context that you're working in, sometimes people simply haven't explored some of these concepts. And so I'll ask questions that they might have been better served asking themselves, doing a little bit of introspection. But I'm going to be compassionate and empathetic and ask them. And in order mainly to get them to go to a place that they've never been so they can learn a bit more about themselves and the way they think about it as they're sharing it with me.

Yeah, super powerful. Because then you get to operate as a bit of a mirror. Right. You're holding up a mirror for them to see themselves and inviting them to see themselves and maybe process something that either they didn't have the invitation to, the capacity for, no one had invited them into. So I think it's really powerful. I like that approach.

Absolutely. Man, this is good. This is good. So we're coming up on time and I want to make sure we keep this tight. But at the same time, I also want to make sure I give you an opportunity to talk about your two companies, the Courage Collective and Boundless. So can you let the listeners know about how to get in touch with you and how they could work with you?

Yeah, for sure. So the Curse Collective, we do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and training. And so we've been fortunate enough to work with Fortune 500s all the way down to 10 person startups and anything in between. Like I said, it's most important that we're aligned on the why and the values level. But our work, we like to take what we would call a strategic, holistic and human centered approach to diversity, equity and inclusion work. What that means for us is when I look at the state of the industry, so many people are taking either very reactive approaches or very acute approaches. Right. So you can't solve systemic problems with acute interventions. You have to think about it holistically. Right. And so for us, what that means is looking at the entirety of the organization, looking at the full employee journey and thinking about how does DE and I show up before someone starts at your company, while they're at your company and once they leave your company and what is the role of leaders and managers in making sure that people feel a sense of belonging and operate in an equitable environment? Right. So those are just the high level themes that we look at. We usually start with listening and discovery, then we dive into strategy, et cetera. And then we do learning and development as well as and not the off the shelf unconscious bias trainings. Just because I want to do things that I think are meaningful and that actually work. So for me, that's how I think about it. I have a brilliant team that I get to work with and they're also some of my really good friends. And so I feel grateful for that. Really fantastic folks. And so how can you get in touch with us? Go to our website, thecurricollective.co. you can find us on LinkedIn. So those are probably the two primary places as far as Boundless goes. Yeah, Boundless is a newer project that I've been working on and I think the impetus for that one. I have been one of the fewer, one of the only in most spaces in my professional career. And so the way I got into venture capital at the beginning, I felt motivated and inspired by another black man who was the co founder of Jumpstart Foundry at the time where I was working. And I was like, okay, if he can find his way into that space, maybe I can as well. And so I know there's a level to which representation really matters. And seeing people who, you know, share the same identities in certain ways as you, it's just empowering and impactful. And so with Boundless, I'm trying to create points of access for black and brown folks in industries that they haven't historically been represented. So marketing, advertising, pr, et cetera, consulting and then tech, all very homogenous. Trying to think about ways that we can help bridge people who are, well, deserving of opportunities with those opportunities. So Those are my two companies, Boundless. You can find it at BoundlessFellows. CO.

This is awesome. Yes. I appreciate having you on and it is clear, my friend, that you are a fellow child of immigrants. So many things on plate, but I can't expect it. Yeah, this is great. Well, thanks for the important work that you do and thanks for joining us today. This was really awesome.

Kwame, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

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