IBM’s Cindy Anderson & Anthony Marshal on Thought Leadership for Negotiators

Cindy and Anthony, thanks for joining us today.

Pleasure to be here.

Great to be here.

Yes. It's a pleasure to have you both. So, Cindy, how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Absolutely. I work as the CMO and the global lead for Engagement and Eminence at the IBM Institute for Business Value. I have the best title ever. Engagement and Eminence. Right. And what that means is I work, my team works on taking our thought leadership and really getting it out into the world, getting it out to our clients and to the folks who can use the business insights. I'm also on the board of advisors for the Global Thought Leadership Institute, which is a brand new organization that I know we're going to talk about later.

So similar IBM Institute for Business Value. So I lead thought leadership, which is, you know, I've got all the, the, the people that are the experts in various industries or technologies or various functional areas like talent or supply chain reporting to me. And we work together to actually formulate the thought leadership content. Also, I've got the analysis team who do all the statistics and econometrics and all that kind of stuff on the, for the, for the thought leadership as well as our global network. So we're actually. You have a global network of IBM Institute for Business Values around the world, engaging in specific countries, and I have them, that team reporting to me as well.

Amazing. Well, welcome both of you to the show and I'm really excited to have you here because this is going to be one of our most unique approaches to negotiations ever on the podcast. Because when we think about the book that both of you co authored here, the ROI of Thought Leadership, I think some people listening to the podcast are, they're going to say, well, Kwame, here, I'm here for negotiation. What does this have to do with negotiation? But listeners, I promise you there's a really cool nexus between thought leadership and negotiation. And if you can master this, it'll help amplify your negotiation persuasion and communication skills exponentially. And I think a good place for us to start is first of all with a definition for thought leadership. But let's have some fun with this. I don't want just the definition because I know you've talked about this a lot. I, I want to hear some of your favorite misconceptions about thought leadership that hold people back from fully appreciating it.

All right, I'm going to go for it. Anthony. The best misconception is that thought leadership is squishy and that it is not definable, that it is not just quantifiable, that it is not justifiable. This is a huge misconception which we will talk about as we go through this podcast and when we talk about the roi. But that is one major misconception of thought leadership.

Yeah, I think that's important because I think when it comes to thought leadership versus maybe something like just research in general, thought leadership is a lot more tangible. And applicable research oftentimes can be useful, and sometimes it is just intellectually stimulating, but without a very clear purpose. You know, So I like that, the pushing back on that squishy, nebulous misconception of thought leadership.

I think there's a misconception often that thought leadership is marketing. And what we've found in our analysis is if you, you know, thought leadership is. Can be a really important piece of marketing. It's a marketing equation. But if you start treating thought leadership as marketing, if you start trying to push product in the thought leadership, it ceases to have its impact. People, whoever your audience is, they're going to stop listening to you and they're going to not take it as a credible piece of analysis and insight. And so that's one of the biggest misconceptions that I see out there.

This is great. And based on what both of you said, it sounds like these misconceptions are often rooted in people's past bad experiences with thought leadership. And so when thought leadership is done inappropriately or incorrectly, then it kind of sullies the experience or perceptions that other people have about thought leadership going forward. And then we lose the persuasive value that the thought leadership has. And so now, before we get into the X's and O's, because I had to stop myself, I'm excited to get into this. I love this. But for me, I see myself as a thought leader in the field of negotiation and conflict resolution. Now, the challenge is that a lot of the individual contributors and leaders who are listening to this podcast might not readily see themselves as thought leadership. And especially for both of you coming from IBM, this is a massive organization with massive credibility in creating thought leadership. And so when we think about the things that you have talked about in the book, the ROI of thought leadership, and all of the work that you've done, how can we take some of the gems of wisdom that are in this book and apply it to everyday leaders and managers and as they use thought leadership persuasively?

Yeah. The beauty of this book, Kwame, is that it's relevant for an individual as a thought leadership producer. So as an individual thought leader, or for very large consulting concerns like an IBM, and for everything in between. And we have a number of different aspects of the book that are specifically oriented toward those folks. But you as a thought leader or any of your listeners as thought leaders in other parts of, you know, the world have to justify what it is they're doing, right? You're doing it because you love it, but it's a business for most of us, right? So there's gotta be some justification for doing what it is that we do beyond the fact that we love what it is that we do. And that's really being able to calculate the value.

Right?

And in this case, because we wanted to de squishify thought leadership, we created this ROI calculation. ROI in itself is a really easy. It's really easy math. But all of the parameters that go into the easy math can be really complex. And so that's what we simplified, tried to simplify. For folks, whether they're individuals trying to justify what it is that they're doing for their business, whether they're trying to start a business as a thought leader, become a thought leader, it's really important to know what you're going to measure yourself against. And this is one way they can do that.

So let's continue to de squishify this and let's try to make it really relevant for somebody who might be within a company leading a team, or an individual contributor within a team, or maybe an entrepreneur who's starting a company. So for those people who might not readily consider themselves thought leadership, how can they use the ROI calculator and some of the methodologies in the book to their advantage to promote whatever it is that they're trying to push forward.

So I think there's. There's two. Two things here, Kwame. One is that you create thought leadership. So I know talking about writing a book, right, or building a thought leadership capability in your organization, that's one side of the equation. But I think your listeners are also interested in how do I project the expertise that I have, how do I convince other people that I am a leader in my field? And so a fast way of doing that is actually endogenizing it, consuming the thought leadership there and then making it part of yourself and then communicating it out. You can synthesize thought leadership, you can add to it, you can combine it, you can do all sorts of things with it and then communicate it out. And so you can bring some of your own Original insights with content that's already there, and project it out through social media, through LinkedIn, however you want to do it, but basically bring all that content together and make it your own message, your own unique personal story, and then project it out there very efficiently, very quickly. And so by being a good consumer of thought leadership, you're able to build your own eminence and project your own eminence in addition to, you know, spending the. What you know, is like the years that it takes to actually write a book and get it out there right. You know, there are big delays on that. It's huge, huge investment. And so, you know, there are faster ways of getting there if you actually become a really robust and healthy consumer of thought leadership as well.

This is great for so many reasons. First of all, it just substantiates why it's important for. For so many people who are listening to this podcast to continue to listen to the podcast because you're consuming thought leadership. So kudos to everybody listening. You're on your way there. That's great. And I love the idea, the distinction between the. Like the verb and the noun. So we have a thought leader who is somebody who produces thought leadership. And when you think about it through that lens, then you recognize that you can become a thought leader as long as you are intentional about producing. Producing thought leadership. And that makes it really doable because it doesn't mean that you need to have hundreds of thousands of followers in order to be deemed a thought leader. If people can see evidence of your thought leadership, then you become a thought leader. And we often overlook the power of authority in negotiation and difficult conversations. And when you think about authority, that goes beyond tactics and strategies. Imagine if we have somebody who has a lot of negotiation tactics and strategies at their disposal, but not much thought leadership or authority in their field, versus to somebody who has absolutely no negotiation skills, but an immense amount of authority and thought leadership, that person with no skills and authority will be more persuasive in a tough conversation. So this is the nexus that is really powerful that is often overlooked. And so let's say somebody is saying, all right, cool, I'm following this. I'm seeing a path, but I'm not clear on the first step. So if somebody wants to start to start on their path as a thought leader by producing thought leadership. Cindy, what are some of those things that could be really tangible, realistic first steps? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations. At the American Negotiation Institute, we we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

I think what Anthony said, I'll just reinforce. You can't be a thought leader without consuming thought leadership. You need to know what's out there. So whatever your field is, whether it's negotiation or thought leadership or something in between, whatever your field is, you need to consume what's out there. You need to integrate and internalize the thought leadership that's already in the market in your area. And only then can you determine where or what direction you should take and what kind of research that you should do to create new insight that's going to add to the, you know, kind of the body of work that's already in the field. So many people we see, you know, some, some folks that come to us and say, I want to, I want to write an article. What, what do you want to write an article about? Well, I don't know, what should I write about? Right. That's the wrong question to ask. You don't want to write an article unless you already know what you're going to write the article on because you've done some research, you've consumed what's out there, you've looked at what's in the market and you have an idea of which direction you want to go, then your research really helps you hone that idea. And then you write your article and then you figure out how to promote your thought leadership and then you're on your way. Right. But the starting point is always consuming first before you actually start producing.

Yeah, it's a very good point. And this is something that you, you know, we, we grapple with, you know, some of my team when they're, you know, particularly if they're new to the field. And it can be very intimidating going into a C suite member's office or a CEO's office if you are not, don't have decades of experience in the industry that you're in. But the content itself brings that expertise. And so even if you are sort of at a certain point in your career, maybe three, four, five years in, rather than 25 years in, if you've actually got the content that the executive or whoever you're engaging with is interested in for that content, you know more than they do, right? You can be an expert in that content. And if you've got the sort of content that is of interest to them for whatever reason, whether it projects a future for them, provides a strategy or a negotiation or however you want to think about it, if you've actually got expertise in that piece, then you are valuable in that discussion. And so that gives you the confidence to be able to project that. And, and, and that, that helps you build, build the engagement that, you know, we're all, we're all trying to look for, I think, in our, in our, in our respective careers.

I love this, this is, this is so empowering and practical too, because there are these two elements because we need to understand how to go about becoming a thought leader and producing thought leadership. But we also have to believe in ourselves enough to have the swag and confidence to do so.

Right?

Those are two separate things. So we have to start by consuming. Everybody can do that. That's an easy first step. Now when we talk about sprinkling in our insight, I think we have to just give ourselves value or recognize our own value in our own experience, because there are a lot of people, there are a lot of different thought leaders and none of them are you. You have unique experience and expertise that you can bring to the table. And then lastly, when it comes to the thought leadership that we're sharing, like you said, Anthony, it can be very intimidating to go in front of a high ranking person, like a CEO, and produce and share what it is that you've discovered. But you have to, that expertise is relative, right? So as long as I know more relative to the other person in the room, then I'm an expert. And you need to give yourself permission to walk in that expertise. And the thing is, I know for me, because I've, this was my life journey. This was hard for me because I was looking up to the luminaries from Harvard and the other bestselling authors and nobody knew who I was. I'm like, what can I add to what is already there? But I recognized none of them were me. None of them had my unique background. And once I gave myself permission to use my unique voice, then that's when things started to roll. Now when you think about somebody who might be listening to this podcast and they're like, you know what? I believe in myself. I'm going to do this now. We've already talked about the misconceptions. What are some of the mistakes that people make when it comes to the production of thought leadership that can hold them back and undermine their authority unintentionally?

I would say the biggest mistake is assuming that thought leadership is the same as other types of content, for example. Well, let me tell you what it is first. Thought leadership really needs to have evidence behind it. So it's got to be distinct and evidence based intelligence. So there's got to be some research behind it. It's gotta have insight. You just talked about that, Kwame. That expertise, the, you know, give the permission to express that expertise that's founded or at the, you know, has a foundation of that research and that's what really helps leaders or helps your readers or your audience make better business decisions, which is the intent of thought leadership. Right, but thought leadership is very different from marketing content which has product promotions. It's very different from an opinion piece which is just that expertise without the data behind it. It's very different from academic research, which is really, really heavy on the data but doesn't often come up with a lot of insights or conclusions. It's really different from news, which is much more kind of timely and urgent. Thought leadership is a long term relationship building activity. So those are some of the things that you don't want to fall into when you're starting out trying to produce thought leadership or build your emine as a thought leader. You want to have those, you know, those key aspects of that define thought leadership, which is that evidence base, that research, that's the foundation of good thought leadership.

Now as I'm thinking about this, I'm kind of reevaluating some social media strategies too because this is, it's really fascinating because once I recognize some of these mistakes, I can see times where me and my team, we've made these mistakes too. I think especially when you think about it from the lens of business and entrepreneurship, you can say, all right, cool, I'm going to give a lot of value and then I'm going to direct it to one of my products. And that it like pretty much instantly undermines the credibility of the piece that you're creating because it introduces a little bit of self orientation versus the generosity. So it seems like for somebody to be, to do this very well, there needs to be a long term plan and patience and restraint as well. So this piece is pure thought leadership. Thought leadership needs to be pure and devoid of self interest. And then subsequently maybe I can post something that could be Marketable. But those two things aren't the same.

Correct.

That's.

You got it.

This is a coaching session, everybody. It's not a podcast anymore. This is coaching. This is great. And Anthony, I want to pass the ball to you now. As we think about the ROI of thought leadership, the book that you wrote here, co authored here, what were some of the most surprising findings?

Well, an incredibly surprising finding is that we found that the average ROI on thought leadership was 156% if done correctly. But Kwame, if I can just build on something that Cindy was saying, because in the book, one of the things that we do when talking about thought leadership production within an organization is think about the thought leadership in terms of three elements. Quality. Does it have data, as Cindy was indicating? Are the insights compelling? There was uniqueness, and that is the extent to which the thought leadership aligns with the strategy of the organizational brand, or in this discussion, personal brand, if you will. And reach, to what extent is it integrated into publicity campaigns, promotional campaigns, marketing strategies, et cetera? And what we build out is actually eight different archetypes for individual organizations depending upon whether they have those elements in them. And in this discussion, it occurred to me that you could apply those archetypes to one's individual as well as an organization. So I'll give you an example. So one of the archetypes is the thought leadership academic. And so the thought leadership academic has quality. They've got all that stuff, but they don't have uniqueness and they don't have reach. So it is really an academic discussion. Another is the thought leadership narcissist. All right, so the thought leadership narcissist is all about uniqueness. I have a personal message. Listen to what I'm saying. But they've got no quality. They've got no data to substantiate it, and no one really wants to talk to them. And so that turns into a sort of a self perpetuating echo chamber, if you will, and that's not going to work. Then you've got the thought leadership influencer who's got the reach. And a lot of social media got the reach. But you don't have the uniqueness in message and you don't have the quality in there. But when you bring all those things together, and I think that was what you were pointing out, Kwame, in terms of one's building one's personal brand. Right? If you can bring all those things together, that's when you. You're cooking. That's when you really have something very special. Because you've got the substance, you've got the communication skills, you've got the alignment with what you're trying to achieve in your personal brand. And that's when you can have a huge impact in the room. That's when you can have a huge impact, sort of across the board.

Amazing. And Anthony, as you were speaking, it reminded me of my undergrad in psychology. One of the things that they said, which nobody listened to, but they said it. They did their job. They said, hey, as you learn about these different psychological disorders, do not diagnose your friends. You cannot diagnose friends. And as you're talking about the different archetypes, when you said the thought leader, narcissist, I'm like, some names are coming to my. So, listeners, do not diagnose your favorite influencers here, please. This is not what we're encouraging.

That's right.

This is great. And I really love how tangible this is because what we can see is that there are going to be different elements of different archetypes that we can sprinkle in from time to time. Or we could say, listen, let me try to fit squarely between in one or another. But the point is clarity. We actually have guidance. Because, I mean, even for me, as somebody who is a thought leader, like, this is bringing me a lot of clarity that can help to adjust the way that I navigate the world and present myself. It's incredibly helpful for me, and I'm assuming it'll be helpful for other people. And now, one last thing before we move on, because I know you're in the middle of a busy, whirlwind book tour, so I want to be respectful of your time and energy. Let's talk about times where thought leadership could be inappropriately utilized or overutilized. So times where somebody might, instead of creating a true connection with somebody in a conversation, they rely completely on thought leadership and try to persuade through sheer force of data versus connection. So what is that Goldilocks zone, where we sprinkle in thought leadership for persuasive purposes, and then we have to pull back and fall back into just traditional negotiation, persuasion, and communication skills. How can we start to balance that?

Yeah, I think. Well, Anthony didn't tell you that the eighth archetype is the thought leadership superhero, and that's the archetype that balances all three things exactly as you mentioned, Kwame. So when you get your quality, uniqueness, and reach in the right measure, that's when you hit that sweet spot. And I don't think there's A magic formula. I think it's going to be different for every organization and for every individual. Because you go into it with. You mentioned early on, Kwame, everybody goes into it with their own unique perspective and nobody else is you same for an organization. So there are going to be organizations that are much stronger on the research side, there are going to be organizations that are much stronger on the insight side or on the subject matter, expertise side. And they're just going to have to figure out how to augment and balance out where the weaknesses are. And that's a trial and error thing. I think you walk into a CEO's office and you say, hey, let me share this piece of thought leadership with you. What do you think? And you get a reaction like, talk to you in a month, you know you've gone too far on the overloading on the data. Right. And there's not enough of that kind of expertise and insight piece. So a little bit of it is really going to be trial and error in terms of how you balance all three of those elements.

Yeah, I think some people make the mistake of throwing data at the wall and thinking that's thought leadership when the thing that we focus on is the narrative underpinning it. And so number one, it's the narrative that's important. But I think the other point I'd like to highlight is knowing what the role of thought leadership is in whatever you're doing. So from our perspective, in the IBM and my perspective, engaging with clients, when I engage with clients, might be in with a CEO or a CIO or a cto, I'm there to project, to represent the thought leadership and represent the expertise. But I need to know when to stop. And so ultimately the objective of the thought leadership is to sell products and services. Right? That's what I say, build relationships, all that kind of stuff. I can't be involved in that, nor can the thought leadership. And so in the room, I need to know when to stop talking. And so if the, if the conversation transitions to something that is sales oriented, I stopped, I stopped talking. And hopefully there's someone in the room that will continue that conversation into, into that direction. Hopefully it will be productive for both client and the IBM in this instance. Right. But, but I'm. Because I have a very clear sense of why I'm there and what the thought leadership is, is supposed to be doing. I think that's the second part. Sort of knowing why you're doing it, what you're doing and when, when to stop doing it.

This is brilliant, brilliant. I mean, it comes down to this. The same rules of any kind of communication. We have to begin with the end in mind. What is it we're here to do, why are we doing it, and then what is the best way to go about doing it? And I really applaud both of you for your restraint as well, because I know author and especially having probably some pressure from publishers too, you might want to get to a very clear way of saying it. Well, what is the Goldilocks Zone? Well, I have a 36 part test for that, my friends, and you're keeping it real. And I think that's equal parts scary and encouraging because some people would want like a very clear way to do it. What is the, the like the perfect balance. But the reality is it's going to be different for different people under different circumstances. But the book gives you the pathway to understand how to understand the different bright spots or maybe mistakes that we could be making and make those strategic adjustments. And then we just need to try. We need to treat it like our own experiment and make the adjustments in real time. So this is great. And I know I'm sold on this book. But before you both go, I want to just say we're talking about the ROI of thought leadership first. We'll start with you, Anthony, and then we'll wrap up with you, Cindy too. If there is one return on investment for maximizing thought leadership for the listeners, which one is your favorite one? Anthony, you go first and then Cindy. We'll see.

I think it's what you've been talking about here today, Kwame. It's a juxtaposition of the organization and the individual. And so we can think about this from the perspective of an ROI for an organization. We've done the calculations for that in the book. We've got a calculator that people can put in their own numbers and calculate their own roi. And we've also done analysis on what can be changed to have the biggest impact on improvement of roi. But from an individual perspective, the lessons are transferable. And so from an individual, one can build up one's personal brand. One can become better at creating and projecting thought leadership and build one's eminence. And this is really a fast way of building one's eminence and building one's career into the image that you want to create of yourself.

Yeah, I think my takeaway is use thought leadership as the platform. That's what it's there for. The ROI is high, it's valuable, it's demonstrable. It's credible, and it's there as the platform. You can build everything else on top of thought leadership, but you got to start there.

Same date. Anthony, thank you both for joining us. Really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, learning. Keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.