Improving Your Negotiations Through Focus With Dave Crenshaw

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Dave, thanks for joining us today.

Hey, great to be here, Kwame.

Yeah, it's great to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. So I am an online instructor primarily. I have lots of courses on LinkedIn Learning, which is where you have them. I also do live speaking events and some consulting. And through the years, there's been an evolution in my career where now I am focusing on productive leadership, meaning I'm helping leaders become more productive, and I'm helping people do leadership in the most productive way. And one of those ways is about being more effective with how you're managing your time, which is what brings us here right now.

Fantastic. And everybody, Dave is being very modest. He is one of LinkedIn's top course producers. So I'll link to his LinkedIn so you can check that out. So make sure you get into that and check out his content. And of course, the book. Dave, tell us about the book.

Yeah, so the Myth of Multitasking is interesting. That was my first book, and that came out all the way back in 2008. And so now we finally have an opportunity to do a second edition where all the research is updated. All the experience that I gained from working with people, you'll find that in there as well. So the second edition is out in January 2021, and I'm really thrilled about it.

Congratulations. And so that brings us to this conversation. And I know there are going to be some folks out there asking the question, why are we talking about multitasking? On a negotiation podcast.

Yeah. So it's a perfect question. And the answer is, it has everything to do with negotiation. And the reason why is there are four costs. And we'll get into the difference between back tasking and switch tasking in a moment. But basically, when you try to multitask, when you try to do multiple things at the same time, there are four costs. The first is it takes longer. And if you think about the situation of negotiation, time is precious, and you don't want to waste your time or the person you're talking to. The second is you make more mistakes. Now, what is the cost of making a mistake, either in the execution of your negotiation or in the terms itself that can be extremely costly? Number three is you increase your stress and the stress of the person you're talking to, which you can imagine how that compromises the whole negotiation, the whole discussion process. And then the fourth is that you damage the quality of relationships. And I know Kwame, and everything that you talk about, there's always that concept of mutual respect. And if you are trying to multitask on a human being, you are almost immediately damaging that respect.

Well, I am sold. I think this is great.

At least you're sold. Now we have to sell everybody else attention to this, right?

Exactly. No, this is fantastic. I'm excited for this. And like the listeners know, my background's in psychology, so understanding how these mental processes have an impact on how we're connecting with each other, I'm really excited about this. And then for the sake of organization, the three things that we're going to focus on today as it relates to multitasking and these difficult conversations is, number one, we're going to talk about multitasking and what it is versus what it isn't, just clarifying what that really means. Then we're going to talk about switch tasking and how it damages the quality of the relationships. And then we're going to wrap up with the power of focus. Now that we know these challenges, what can we do about it to improve our relationship? So let's talk about the first one. What is multitasking?

Well, it's not what most people think it is. And when we try to have a discussion around the word, we run into a problem. The word itself is. Is weak. It's not an effective word to describe what are multiple, complex processes. And to understand how we got here, you have to understand the origin of the word. It really had nothing to do with human beings. It had to deal with computers. And we looked at the way Computers started to operate in particular at the beginning of the 90s. Now I'm dating myself a little bit. I'm 45 right now. Back in the day, if you wanted to switch a program, if I wanted to change the video game I was playing in my Apple IIe computer in my bedroom in the mid-80s, I had to take out a floppy disk, turn off the computer first, take out the floppy disk, put in a new floppy disk, turn it on, and that allowed me to play whatever it is I wanted to do. Then somewhere along the line, Windows came out and Windows could multitask and the computer could do multiple things at the same time. It was brilliant. The problem is, even the word itself with computers says if you look up a computer definition, it says a computer's apparent ability to do multiple things at the same time. So it's not really doing all those things at the same time, it's just switching rapidly back and forth. Case in point, you start browsing and you open up 20 different browser windows on your computer. What happens? Everything starts to slow down, the computer starts making mistakes, it gets hotter, all those things. So with that as the backdrop, people heard the word multitasking and they said, we can multitask, right? We can do this. But the brain has the same limitation put upon it. It can only do one active task at a time, one attention requiring task at a time. When you try to do multiple things at the same time, you're not multitasking, you're switch tasking. So you're switching rapidly back and forth, and when you do that, you incur switching cost. So that's the main problem is that when we say the word multitasking, people are using it in different ways. And because we're using the same word for different things, it creates confusion. So should I explain what back tasking is?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So let's address all of those definitions.

Yeah. Okay. So switch tasking is when you're trying to perform multiple attention requiring tasks at the same time. Like I'm talking on the phone while I'm checking my email, I am going to pay switching costs back and forth. I'm trying to have a negotiation while my phone vibrates. That moment that that phone vibrates, they lost me for a second. I lost them because I'm thinking, what was that all about? And then you start doing that multitask, that switch tasking thing. Huh, huh, right. You're kind of giving partial attention to them, but they know you're not listening and you know, you're really thinking about what that beep was on your phone. So that's switching costs. That's switch tasking. There is another way that can be effective, and that's background tasking. Or I've shortened it to back tasking, meaning something mindless, mundane, or automatic occurs in the background. It doesn't require your attention. For example, I might, you know, start something cooking in my oven while I make the salad. That is productive. That is effective. The problem is when most people say I'm a good multitasker, or they say, are you? Can you multitask? They're talking about switch tasking. And switch tasking is not never effective. It's never productive. So another way to think about it too is someone will come to me and they'll say, well, Dave, is it good if I do this or is it bad if I do that? It's not a moral question here. The question is, what is productive? If you're switch tasking, it's always less productive. If you're back tasking, that can be more productive, that can be more efficient. So that's the question you want to ask yourself. Am I switch tasking or am I backtasking?

This is great. And it makes a lot of sense. And it reminds me of an episode we had earlier in the year with Lauren Newell. She's a professor of law at Ohio Northern University, and she talks about the cognitive dangers of online negotiations, all the distractions. And now it reminds me of that because here, a lot of times, like you said, we are switch tasking all the time. Anything that comes up that distracts us, it's going to have an impact, it's going to have a cost. And it's funny. I mean, as much as I teach this and I practice it myself, I fall victim to it every once in a while. And then I come back to the conversation. It's like a reawakening. And I say to myself, where am I? Could they tell I wasn't there? Like, what happened? But it's very real when it comes to the impact. And so one of the things that I'm recognizing based on what you're saying is that when it comes to back tasking, it's something that we can do. It can be productive if the other thing that we're doing is minor enough. And I'm assuming then that whether or not it's minor depends a little bit on the person too.

Yes, absolutely. In fact, a good example of that is when I speak to audiences. I'll ask the audience a question for how many of you does listening to music at work make you more productive? And half the audience will raise their hand. They'll say, okay, great. Now, for how many of you, does listening to music at work make you less productive? And half the audience will raise their hand. Now, part of my backstory is that I was diagnosed as. And this is word for word from the psychologist. Freaking off the charts. Adhd, right?

My gosh.

So and so, when I'm talking about focus, this is something that I've intimately dealt with my entire life. One of those being career focused. Now, I've been focused on my career for quite a while, but back in the day, I was trying to be a rock star. I had a band. My wife supported me while we were, you know, down the road and stuff like that. And so for me, when I hear music, I don't hear music. I hear chord progression, I hear lyrics, I hear structure, I hear melody. So it causes me to switch tasks, as it does for many people. But for some, it's nice. It kind of creates that background noise. So that. That to me illustrates that question that we can ask ourselves. Is this helping me be more productive or is this getting in the way? That is the deciding line between switch tasking and back task.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year. If you think you might want one, I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. This is great. And now I'm thinking also about the environment that we create for our negotiations, because something for us might not be distracting, it might just add to the ambiance. But we can still focus, but we don't recognize that it could have an impact that's negative on the other people around us in these negotiations. And so considering that, what are some things that we should put into our conscious awareness when we are maybe arranging a room for a meeting or a negotiation or setting the stage for a zoom call and the things that are behind us, what are some things we should think about?

Yeah. I love thinking of it in terms of the five senses that keeps it so simple. So, for instance, sight being in a room with the window open could be enough just to pull someone's attention away. Especially if we've got something significant happen outside. So look around. Are there posters? I would remove anything with words in that environment if I had that opportunity. I would make sure that the line of sight between me and that person is as least obstructed and less distracting as possible. Sound. We already talked about music. What's happening in the ambiance of people talking outside. You know, if we do an interview like this. In fact, Kwame, you sent me a list of. Here are the things that I want you to do to make sure we don't have a distracted interview. And one of those was, you know, just having somebody in the office say, you need to be quiet. He's having an interview that pulls people's attention away. So you can think about that. You know, you can think in sight. Sound, touch. What are the ergonomics of the chair? You don't want someone to think that they're being uncomfortable. Smell, believe it or not, can have an impact. If I'm thinking about what is that phantom smell that I'm having, good or bad? Wow, smell those chocolate chip cookies. I just lost that person for a moment. Taste. Making sure that we have snacks and water and things that are less distracting. I would try to have things that don't have packages, you know, stuff that can be easily grabbed, that kind of stuff, especially if you're going to be in a long haul negotiation.

And I'm sure you can see my eyes now darting back and forth. You have me in deep thought here. This is really.

At least you're thinking about our conversation and not the laundry that you didn't do yesterday, right?

Exactly. Yeah.

Whatever it was.

Because for me, as a, as a mediator especially, I'm trying to create that atmosphere where people feel safe, where they can focus on the conversation. And for the majority of people, this is not their life like it is for me. And so this is a very stressful situation for them. And now just thinking about the different things that I may have done in the past or the staff around me might have done in the past, that could pull their attention away, could increase the level of stress and decrease their performance as a result.

Every little movement, every action like, you know, this. You film courses for LinkedIn learning. And I do it. I'm sitting there, I'm working on the teleprompter. I'm Delivering the course. But out of the corner of my eye, I can see if the camera guy looks at his watch, and if he looks at his watch, I'm thinking, what's wrong with the time? Have we gone over? Is there something that he needs to take care of at the same time that I'm delivering the words? And for that moment, I'm not at my best, and you want to avoid that as much as possible. One other thing to consider, too, in terms of distraction, is what's going on in your mind. I teach a course called Time management fundamentals on LinkedIn learning. And one of the things I discuss is that your mind has so much influence on your ability to be productive, and we want that thing to be cleared out. I don't want any unresolved tasks in my head when I come to interview with you, Kwame. Everything that I have to do has been dumped into an approved gathering point, meaning I've sent myself an email. I've put it in a notepad. I know those things that I'm going to deal with. Like at the beginning, you said, hey, I'm going to refer you to somebody, right, to have a podcast. I immediately took that and dumped it into my notepad so that I don't have to think about it again. So if you have these random thoughts, like the example, oh, I forgot to pick up my dry cleaning this morning, I lose that moment. I lose my edge. But if I have it all cleared out, if I have it all scheduled on my calendar, I can go into a conversation like this. You can go into a negotiation knowing that you can give that person 100% of your attention.

Yeah, this is great. And again, listeners, this just goes to show, with this show, what we're trying to do is we're trying to get you to think differently about negotiation. This probably isn't something you'll see in a negotiation book. I know that because I've written a negotiation book and I didn't talk about it. So this is great. I love that we're being pushed to think outside the box and think about how these things are having an impact on the way that we think, the way that we perform in the negotiation, and the way that we interact with others. And I think that's a great segue for the second point, which is switch tasking reduces the quality of our relationships. So let's dig deeper into that.

Dave. Yeah, so one of the biggest costs with switch tasking is what it does to the interactions that we have with human beings. And sometimes when I talk about switch tasking, they go, oh, well, Dave, that doesn't apply to me. I can be more efficient, I can be more productive. I don't pay my switching costs. Then I'll say, yes. But you can never get away with the impact on relationships. Here's a fun little exercise that you can do just with a family member or if you had a company training, have people pair up for just 30 seconds and have Person 1 talk to Person 2 about something they're passionate about. Their favorite football team, their favorite hobby. Okay? The other person just listens patiently, 30 seconds and then you finish. Then you switch roles. Now person two talks to person one and they talk about something they're passionate about, their family members, their favorite sport, whatever it is. And person one listens, but they give partial attention. So, you know, they pick up their phone and they're looking at their phone. Uh huh, yeah. Okay. And you just. Yeah, I'm listening. But I'm, I'm switch tasking on you. At the end of that, I ask everyone, okay, people, person two, in one word, how did that make you feel? And the one word that I hear consistently is unimportant. Now imagine that someone, you start your day, you wake up, you go downstairs, you see your partner, you see a significant other, and you say, hi, honey, you're unimportant. What are you going to do today? Or someone calls you and you say, thank you for calling the American Negotiation Institute, where you're unimportant. How can I help you? Now we would never do that, right? But we do that, right? Every time you give partial attention to someone else, you are communicating to them that they are less important. Important than whatever it is that you're doing at the time. The best testimonial that I ever received and can't use came from the wife of a business owner that I consulted. And when he first started with me, he was all over the place. He couldn't finish his sentence. And he was taking that behavior home to his wife. And he had five daughters. Five daughters, okay. And he was taking that home to them. Then after working with him for a while, I took him out to dinner along with a few other clients. And we were getting ready to go. And when I was putting on my jacket and his wife pulled me aside and took me by the hand and with tears in her eyes, she said, I don't know what you did to my husband, but thank you. That is the power. On the flip side, if we become people who give others our full attention, that is a powerful statement. And if you're negotiating with people, if you really communicate to them, you're the most important person in the room in my life at this moment that is so critical to effective negotiation.

Wow. So I hope all of the listeners out there feel as bad as I do.

That was my intent. I wanted to make you feel bad.

This is crazy. But I think this is fantastic, too, because it provides us now with an opportunity, opportunity to recognize. Recognize our blind spots, because it's more than just an individual thing. And, Dave, you specialize in this, so you tell me if I'm on the right track here. This is also a cultural thing as well, where we're. We're all part of this. This pernicious cult of busyness where we feel like we need to try and do things at all time, at all times. And then it's impacting the way that we're interacting with people, because I think about even with my son Kai, or my wife Whitney, just trying to be present with them, but then paying attention to my phone, checking an email, those type of things, it's creating an unhealthy.

Dynamic in the relationship, and we're all tempted to do it, including myself. And part of the reason is the way in which things were created from a technology standpoint. An excellent show, if you haven't seen it, is the Social Dilemma on Netflix. And it talks about how it demonstrates how we are just getting sucked into these devices. Yet I say that technology isn't the problem. It's our improper use of technology. Technology has evolved over and over and over. It's evolved so quickly since those days that I mentioned of playing a video game on my Apple Iie computer. Think about where we are in the last 30 years. It has evolved rapidly, but we as humans have not evolved rapidly. So that means that we have to learn a new set of survival skills. And that's really what I'm advocating here, is saying, look, this is a skill. This can be learned. Unless you have adhd. If you have ADHD like me, go talk to a specialist. Go get a little extra help to level the playing field. But most people don't have that. Most people have what I call sass, Short attention span Syndrome. It's a learned behavior. And because it's a learned behavior, it can be unlearned just by starting to implement boundaries in your day. You know, just a simple boundary. Like if I'm talking on my phone, my wife starts. Or I'm looking at my phone, my wife starts talking with me. I have conditioned myself to go like that and just pick it up and put it down. She's talking to me. She's the most important person in my life. I'm setting this thing down in favor of focusing on her. It's a habit. It can be developed.

That's great. And I think, again, this is a perfect opportunity to segue into that final point, which is learning how to give people the full attention, our full attention. And I think that example that you just gave was really powerful. So simple, but so powerful. What other tips do you have for us when it comes to increasing our level of focus and really investing into the relationships through that focus?

Yeah, I think it begins by establishing boundaries. I believe boundaries are a good word. Sometimes people feel that they're going to take freedom away, but they don't. They're like the rules of the road. I can drive from Salt Lake City to New York because there are rules of the road, because I know that, you know, in most cases, everyone else on the road is going to follow those rules, and that gives me the freedom to make that kind of journey. So when you think about what you want to accomplish in terms of negotiation, in terms of your career, you've got to ask yourself, what are the rules that I'm going to establish myself to be as successful as possible? And part of that success is saying other people matter. So I have to create boundaries that say, you know what? Here's a simple one. Get in the habit of, rather than having an open door policy or allowing yourself to be contacted at all times, have a closed door open calendar policy which says, here are the blocks of time when I'm going to focus on you 100%. Feel free to block yourself in, just like I blocked myself in with you, Kwame, for this interview. It wasn't like you said, you know what? I'm going to allow other people to send me text messages or emails during this time. That's ridiculous that you would do that in a podcast yet. Why can't we do that in a conversation with a family member, in a negotiation with a conversation with our co workers? And we say, during this time, you're the most important thing. I'm going to turn my phone on. Do not disturb. I'm going to turn all those notifications off. Then when I'm done, this is also part of it. Have buffer time on the other side of it. So if you know you're going to be in a meeting for an hour, give yourself 15 minutes afterward or something like that that says, then I'm going to give myself permission to get caught up. What that does is it allows you to feel relaxed in the conversation to know that, you know what? I am going to have a time to deal with this, and this is when I'm going to do it. In fact, that reminds me of another principle that's really important, which is the culture of now versus the culture of when. Do we have a moment to share that?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. So the culture of now is what we live. It is the idea that if I have a question, I want to send you a text message, and I'm going to get an answer now. And if I send you a text message and you don't answer, Kwame, what am I going to do? I'm going to send you an email, and if you don't answer the email, then what am I going to do? I'm going to give you a call, and then if you don't answer that call, I'm going to send you another text message. And it just goes on and on. And the more channels of communication that we have, it just gets worse. So what we have to do is instead establish expectations with other people and establish expectations with ourselves and say, rather than now, I'm going to default to when I am going to respond to every email. I am going to respond to every message that I receive, and this is when I'm going to do it. So I have that time scheduled in my calendar, and I protect that time just like I would with an important negotiation, just like I would with this podcast and say, I'm not going to allow anything else to get in that spot so that I can use that to get caught up and get relaxed. We have to create those kinds of moments. Otherwise, what we will default to is constant continuous switch tasking.

This is so helpful because again, when you think about it in terms of negotiation, putting that buffer time is going to be important. And if we get into the habit of the doing that buffer time before and after, before we can take the time to prepare. And so for listeners, you've heard me say it about a billion times, make sure to download those free guides. The link is in the description, so you can download those negotiation preparation guides. Salary negotiation, car negotiation over, I think 15 different negotiation guides. How to talk about race, how to talk about politics. All of that in there walks you through how to prepare. So if you give yourself 15 minutes before, you can easily go through those preparation guides. And then afterwards, you have that buffer. Because we've all been in that situation where we see the clock ticking close to the hour. And we say, oh, man, I have another meeting to get to. And we're thinking about the other meeting but not thinking about the person in front of us. We are at times potentially losing focus because of that time pressure, at the time where we need to be most focused, when we could be closing the deal. Right. So I think it's really powerful to put these buffers into our schedule so we can be more effective and really focus more intently on the person in front of us. I'm looking at the time, and I so want to keep going, Dave. So that tells me you have to come back. You have to come back on this journey.

I'd love to.

I'd love to. And so. But before you go, let's wrap it up with one more takeaway. Something actionable that the listeners can do to improve their ability to focus wholeheartedly on people and avoid the temptation of switch tasking.

Yeah. I've mentioned practicing with your family getting the habit or your friends. People that you care about get in the habit of just paying attention to them. We have to recondition your brain to think that way. And if you can do that with friends and family, then you can do that at work. So just get in that habit. All this talk, though, that we've had about the buffer, I just want to highlight one principle, and this is something I cover in my course on how to slow down and be more productive. The problem of our day is that we operate on a razor's edge. Everything that we do is just stacked back to back to back. Like you said, we've got one negotiation and we're immediately going into another meeting. We answer one email, and we immediately jump into the other email, and we're conditioning our brain to just walk this line that's just so tight and it's so dangerous. And more often than not, we get cut on it because we run long, we make a mistake, and then we have to make up. So just the simplest thing that you can do, it's so easy to do, but it's more difficult than it sounds, is just take a minute break. Just set the timer for 60 seconds. I don't want you to meditate, don't focus on your breathing, don't do anything. Just set the timer for 60 seconds and let it be. And what that does, you'll realize, first of all, something that 60 seconds in our year that we're living in right now seems like forever. You know, I ask people, on a scale of 1 to 10, how long did that feel? Most people, they're somewhere around a seven to an eight. Think about that. 60 seconds now feels like an eternity. If you get in the habit of just being for 60 seconds and then go on to the next thing, you start to communicate to your brain. I do have control. I don't have to operate on this razor's edge. And it's okay if I don't constantly stimulate my brain by picking up the phone and going to the next thing.

This is great. I feel like this was a personal therapy session.

I'll send you my bill. I appreciate it.

And I'll send it to Kathryn. She'll handle it. But, yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for this. This is great. And one last time, let the listeners know about the book and how they can get it.

Yeah, so the book is the Myth of Multitasking. You can get it@multitaskbook.com. that'll take you right to Amazon. And, yeah, please get it. And please get it. For people that, you know who are struggling with multitasking. That's really what it was written for, is to help people who are struggling find a new pathway to have some more sanity in their day.

That's fantastic, Dave. Thank you again, my friend. We really appreciate it.

Thanks. Kwame.

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