Inclusive Negotiation Techniques: Jonathan Lacey’s Guide

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Jonathan, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Fantastic. Well, we are excited to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure, I'd be happy to. My name is Jonathan Lacy, and I think the best way for me to frame my background is through the lens of what you do at ani how which is applying the foundations of negotiation to any difficult conversation in life and business. And I think difficult conversations require that we connect with people in some real or meaningful way. And so this theme of interpersonal skills has woven its way through my background. My undergraduate degree is from a leadership school, West Point in. And after that, I was an army officer, and I excelled at interpersonal skills. After the Army, I sold pharmaceuticals, again, a field where you try to influence human behavior through your contact with another person. Worked briefly for a member of Congress. And then I got my main career, which was becoming a FBI special agent. Did that for just under 22 years. And in that job, you certainly deal with a lot of people on a lot of different levels. And I can talk more about that in detail a little bit later. But through the arc of that career, I found myself being asked to take part in conversations that were increasingly challenging and complex and really honed my negotiation skills. And now I'm in private practice in the consulting world, trying to help people at the critical nexus between diversity and security.

This is great. And listeners, you see, my friends are very humble. Right. And he said he went to a leadership school called West Point. This is great. Listen, this is incredible. So you have a background in as an FBI special agent, work for somebody on Congress, and you have a background in sales as well. Could we get a more perfect guest for this podcast? So I appreciate you taking some time with us today, Jonathan. This is exciting.

It's. It's absolutely my pleasure. I love your podcast and it's a pleasure to be a part of it. I'm honored.

Definitely. Oh, man, this is great. Well, listen, this is your. Your career is fascinating for a number of different reasons. We went through the what led you to this point. But I want you to give a little bit more detail about your consulting firm because you are tack a really interesting challenge. It's a combination of expertise that aligns perfectly with your experience. But I haven't seen out there in the world as frequently as I realized that I need to see it. So tell the listeners about the unique angle of your consulting firm.

Absolutely. So what we say is that we are at the critical juncture between diversity and security. And at that intersection point, some potentially, in the best of circumstances, potentially traumatic results can happen if people are not operating under a DEI informed methodology. And so we are diversity, equity and inclusion and security consulting company. We help people become safer in a physical security standpoint without compromising the psychological safety of their neighbors, their customers, and people who just happen to pass by their organization.

Yeah, this is great. And it's so interesting because as we were talking before, it became really obvious how necessary this is. And, and I've heard before that one of the hallmarks of a brilliant idea is that it seems obvious in hindsight. So kudos. You checked off that brilliance checkbox there because it's important, because like you said, we want people to be physically safe. We need to have security in order for people to feel safe. But at the same time, we need to be mindful of the psychological safety of the community members that are being protected by, by law enforcement. And with what you're doing, you're focusing not only on police officers in general, but also private security as well. And can you paint the picture for the listeners the distinction between private security and police officers who are employed by, like, city government, state government, those type of things? Because I don't think many people are very clear on what that is.

Absolutely. And so police officers, generally speaking, have more diversity training than private security. Many private security workers have no diversity training whatsoever. What's interesting is that many police officers migrate to the private security realm after they retire. I'm one who did that. After I retired, I worked for a security nonprofit organization. And one truism of law enforcement is that it has, generally speaking, across the board, has a diversity problem with respect to Its ranks not adequately representing the demographics of the communities that it serves. Now, there are exceptions to this, but it is generally the case. And so because people migrate after retirement from law enforcement to private security, many times we see a corresponding absence of diversity in the private security world. And, you know, again, I work with corporations as well that don't want to incur liability as a result of a security guard taking action on their behalf, that is, causes trauma or injures or kills a member of the public or a customer or a visitor.

Yep, that makes a lot of sense. And let's put this in perspective for the listeners, too, because I want to make sure that we're giving them practical tools, and I want to be able to paint the picture for them of the value of the type of work that you're doing. Because I think what would be helpful is if we think about those core skills that that might be lacking in the industry and paint a picture of what could happen, that would be a good outcome versus what could happen, which could be a bad outcome without those trainings. Can you give a couple of examples?

Yeah, definitely. I think if we go back to where we started, that communication is essentially about establishing a meaningful connection between two or more people. And so that connection, in my opinion, is a key part of the whole field of diversity, equity, equity and inclusion. And what I mean by that is, if we have empathy for the person we're dealing with. Let's say I work at a house of worship and I'm an usher, and somebody walks in who looks like they may not necessarily belong in that congregation, they don't look like the rest of the people. If I am aware of how my actions might impact that other person in that setting or in any other setting that your listeners can imagine that applies to their business or their lives, then I'm going to have a much better interaction with them than if I just look at this from my own perspective. And I think the first aspect of communication at a high level is to understand where the other person is coming from, and you automatically are going to have a better result than if you just consider your own goals and your own perspective. And I think, you know, another aspect of that's really critically important is to actively listen to the other person. You know, we can learn a lot by just asking an opening question and letting the other person talk. And that can also diffuse an initially tense situation. If we just let somebody tell us about themselves, tell us what they need, how we can help them, as opposed to approaching them with a confrontational style. As an example.

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Absolutely right. This isn't about politics or political correctness. This is about if I want to be more successful at my job, which involves communicating with someone else, then I'm going to necessarily think about where they are, what they've experienced. That could involve doing some research. If this is a formal business negotiation, look at their bio, you know, find out where they grew up, where they went to school. Look on the walls if this is an in person or even if it's a zoom meeting. You can see, you know, an American flag is above my head in this little zoom box that I'm standing in. And that is a big part of my identity. And so I think if we use the, this empathy to understand a little bit more about the person we're dealing with, we will be more successful. So you're absolutely right. This isn't about political correctness. And you know, from a macro level that's been shown in study after study that businesses that are, are more diverse, equitable and inclusive, perform better in, in various financial metrics, they have an easier time recruiting people, they have better retention rates of employees, they have better brand recognition because people associate their across various demographics, are aware of their brands. And so it's really, there are numerous substantive metrics that are improved. So this really is more about performance than any kind of political correctness.

Absolutely. And one of the things that you mentioned earlier was that diversity means different things to different people in different contexts, too. And I think a lot of times we can make the mistake of having a really crystallized, concrete idea of what diversity is, because it's going to be different in different contexts. And you had a really cool example. Can you tell the listeners more about that?

Sure, absolutely. You know, depending on where you are, if you just say the word diversity in Lebanon, it might mean religious diversity. If you're talking within a particular organization I used to be associated with, it meant whether you were coming from a law enforcement background or some other background. And so, you know, it can. It often is associated with. It's not always about race. It could be about gender. And so it is really important when we use terms like diversity to specify what we're talking about and, you know, in the. In the context of our conversation. But yeah, it really can mean different things depending on our geography, the organization we're dealing with, and other variables like that.

Absolutely. And I think one of the most important things for us to realize is that inclusion includes you, whoever you happen to be. And I think that it's easy for people, especially if they identify with the majority, to say, well, DEI isn't for me. No, it's for everybody. And I think it's. We miss out on people's perspectives when they kind of self select out and say, oh, no, this probably doesn't include me. No, whoever you are, we want you to be included as well. I think that's really important.

Yeah, I completely agree. Inclusion means everybody, and we do better if we have unique. You're the proverbial you involved in the discussion, whoever you happen to be. And the inclusion simply means that we recognize that some groups have not had as many opportunities or as much of an opportunity to have their voice heard, and we want to bring them to the table so we can hear everybody, including you, for sure.

Definitely. This is great. And let me go back to one of the things that you talked about, which is the importance of active listening. And I always try to advocate for different audience members. It's almost like I can hear their voices in my head sometimes. So let's imagine there's an audience member out there saying, all right, Jonathan, I'm hearing you. I'm hearing what you're saying. I'm picking up what you're putting down. But I have a question, because in these law enforcement Types of situations or a situation where it might be a security guard analyzing a circumstance. Let's use the exact same example that you gave. Let's say it's a private security officer who is tasked with protecting a religious organization. And then they see somebody who stands out. It's like, you don't look like everybody else who's here. So that triggers a little bit of curiosity, which I think is a good tenant for somebody who is in that position. Now, they approach the person and have a conversation. They want to make them feel safe, as you suggested. How do they balance making the person feel safe while still doing their job of protecting and serving, while being respectful and giving it enough. Giving the conversation enough time as well?

You know, that's a great question. I was on a panel recently where we discussed this very topic. And. And a person who happened to be a person of color who attended a house of worship that had. Where she was the only person of color, she and her family went into a house of worship and had an experience that was less than ideal. And she was asked that very question. So this comes from somebody who experienced that exact situation. She said, what. What I would have liked to have heard from the security guard is some vulnerability. Maybe they could have even said, you know, I feel really uncomfortable approaching you because I don't want to make you feel badly, but my job is to keep everybody here safe. I've never seen you here before. Is there anything I can do to help you get adjusted? Are you a member of the congregation? As opposed to something, you know, accusatory or direct, like, excuse me, what are you doing here? You know, I. I was actually at a public. I'm sorry. I was actually at a park that was a playground behind the private school near where I lived. And I've told this story on a national webinar on this exact topic, where person acting in a security capacity walked up to me as I was playing basketball with my sons on Thanksgiving Day and said, who are you and what are you doing here? And this person actually happened to be the groundskeeper of a Christian school. And it immediately put me on the defensive. I felt humiliated. And so I can answer the question from my own perspective. It would have been great if he had just said, hello, I'm the groundskeeper here. Are you guys planning on using. Did you clear your presence here or. And what's interesting here is that it turns out the. As the conversation continued, I said, I actually live around the corner. And he. He said he didn't believe me. And, you know, obviously, that's not a model of how we might want to represent an organization as we keep it safe. And later, when I spoke with the administration of the school, they apologized profusely. They said, we have a long standing policy of letting people in the community use our facilities. And so, you know, that's another reason that we need to educate people who are acting on behalf of our companies, of our houses of worship or other organizations and law enforcement on the potentially traumatizing impact their actions can have. And these are actions they're taking on behalf of your organization. And they are people who are. In this case, he was a groundskeeper, the facilities manager. In some cases, it's an official security guard. Regardless of what it is, when people are acting on behalf of your organization, they should be doing so from an empathetic standpoint, recognizing the open impact of their words.

Oh, that's a great example. I apologize that. It's unfortunate that you had to go through that. And the reality is, I think most people of color living in this country can relate to that type of experience where your legitimacy of your just mere existence is questioned in a location. Right. Especially when you see other people who are enjoying those same types of situations completely unharassed. Right. And so it becomes very clear that there is, there's an othering that's occurring. So again, inclusion definitely not feeling very included there. And we're recognizing, for me, as a lawyer, I say, okay, well, now we have the potential of lawsuits, right. The organization can get sued for improper behavior of their security or the people who are representing them. From a business owner perspective, I see a branding issue. If you're being harassed, racially harassed by my employees, now I have a branding problem, right. And just the people problem. This is not how we treat people. Right. So there's, there's a lot that goes into this. And the training that you described could be one of those solutions for sure.

Exactly. You're not just. It's multifaceted. The benefits are multifaceted. And you know, as you mentioned, it's a business thing, it's a liability thing, it's an ethical thing. You know, how do we want to be out in the community? Do we want to be perceived as. And are we a place that is welcoming? And in fact, I had friends and neighbors who played a big football game. We were actually hanging out before that. So we knew the place was open to everybody. But you know, again, there are times when you decide not to necessarily get into a big argument on Thanksgiving Day in front of your children. So, yeah, Really, I just. I couldn't agree more that there are benefits in a number of areas, both the ethical area, the business case, the liability case, and, you know, really, they all add up to, let's be prepared and do things in a purposeful way as opposed to just by happenstance or the lack of adequate training.

Definitely. And so, Jonathan, this will be the last question I ask, if you were to think about a consulting firm that really spoke to this issue of training people in the police department and people in private security on how to manage these tensions as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion. If you're thinking about a consulting firm, perhaps one that was led by somebody who has over 20 years of FBI experience, maybe a graduate from West Point, do you have any suggestions for a consulting firm that might be able to solve this problem?

Yeah, right. You know, look, I think a consulting firm that. That had that kind of questionable leadership would need to be engaged in meeting people where they are. We want to be sure that we're not here to demonize anybody. You know, you mentioned if somebody happens to be a member of the majority and, you know, they're. They're just not sure about this DEI stuff. You know, I'm here to say that, you know, you are part of the solution. We need you. And we are. We in the DEI community are appealing to you because we need your support in hearing the other voices that have great ideas and supporting those people. Because a lot of times the. The critical element here in dei, like I said, is understanding that the exact same set of circumstances can impact two different people differently based on their lived experience. And so, you know, the example I always give is if I'm pulled over by the police and I. I see the red lights behind me and I hear the yelp of the siren, I'm. I just swallowed hard because I get nervous. And that's based on some personal, lived experiences that may be different for other people. And that's in spite of the fact that I went to West Point, served in the army, was an FBI agent for over 21 years, and I still feel that. And so someone else might get angry and irritated and maybe mouth off to the officer. I guarantee I have never mouthed off to a police officer. My hands are at 10 and two on the steering wheel, as I've instructed my sons to do. And, you know, that's a whole other topic, the talk that people have with their. Their sons of color. But I think what's critical is for us all to work together to understand that different people have different lived experiences and that causes us to have different impact from, different from the same set of circumstances. So if you see somebody in a meeting who's who may seem upset by what was just a light hearted joke, it could be related to that, that factor. And I think it's just really important for us to remember that.

Oh, well said. Well said, Jonathan. Really appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom again. Let the listeners know about how they can get in touch with you, your company and I'm going to put links in the description to make it easy for them.

Absolutely. It's securityofbuffalo.com is our website and infosecurityofbuffalo.com where you can send inquiries if you need more information. Thank you so much for the the opportunity to be on this wonderful podcast. Kwame, it was always a pleasure.

Hey, my pleasure. This was great. Thanks for coming on.

Okay, thank you.

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