Influence Is Your Superpower: Zoe Chance's Insights

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Zoe, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Yeah, it's great to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. I'm the author of a new book called Influence Is yous Superpower. And I based this on the course that I teach at Yale School of Management. It's the most popular course. That one's called Mastering Influence and Persuasion. And I wrote it to share tools and science insights, strategies of influence beyond the ivory tower so that I can help lots of people do good and do well at the same time.

This is great, and kudos to you. I think you picked the best title for a book on persuasive communication ever. I think that's absolutely brilliant.

It's funny you say it, because I had a lot of titles that I liked and my agent and my editor hated all of them. I hated the one that they liked, which was Influence for Nice People. And actually, for four and a half years while I was writing this manuscript, you're making this face of like, oh, that's how I Felt no. Influence for Nice People is terrible. It's not wrong about the material for the book, but it's so not influential. It's cringy. Right?

Yeah.

So I failed to negotiate this new title, and it took just waiting and waiting until the sales team finally, when they got the manuscript, they were like, we love the book, but we freaking hate the title. We need something new.

That's great. And when you say cringy, I mean literally cringed.

Yeah, it did.

So I'm glad you moved to that because, I mean, I consider myself to be a nice person, but I don't know if I, like. I don't know if I wanted to reinforce that with the book that I got. I was like, what is this? I don't know. Yeah, right.

Like, it sounds like Influence for losers. Yeah. I consider myself a nice person, too.

Right, Exactly. We're on the same page. Well, I'm glad you made that shift. It's a brilliant title. I think this is really great because what you've been able to do with your skill set is you've been able to take what was, like you said, it's the most popular course at the Yale School of Management. You put it into a book, but now you're going to share some of those practical tools with us. I want to focus in on that term, practical, because you're from the ivory tower. I taught at the Moritz School of Law here at osu. And the thing is, there's a lot of great stuff that sounds incredibly intellectually stimulating, but is so theoretical that people can't put it into action. So I'm glad that you've been able to take that and synthesize it into a way that can actually be useful for people in their everyday life.

Yes. And I promise, before we end this session, no matter what questions you ask me or don't ask, we'll make sure that I get to share my very, very favorite influence technique. It's so powerful that I call it the Magic Question. And it's super, super easy.

Let's start there. Listen, I know I think that I could have teased this a little bit longer, but I'm excited. I think we should start with the Magic question. So tell us about it.

Great. The Magic Question is powerful because you can ask it in almost any situation as long as you have rapport. And you can ask it repeatedly of the same person, you can ask it of whoever you taught this question to. Your colleagues, your kids, in my case, my students. And the magic question is just what would it take? And I'LL share a story to illustrate the power of this in a couple of different contexts. And let's talk in the work domain, since that's what a lot of people are thinking about listening to this podcast. When I was an MBA student, I interned at this medical device company called Guidant. It's now part of Boston Scientific. And this company had the problem. That's a good problem. But it's still difficult. That demand was outstripping supply for their new medical devices, these stent systems. And the number two person at the CEO, Ginger Graham, had to get employees to come in and work overtime three shifts a day, including the period over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Nobody wants to do this. And when you think from a negotiations perspective about incentives, you can offer people high enough incentives to do most things so they're not disinclined to work. They've already agreed to have this job. You can pay them enough to come in and work overtime. However, Tyler Cowen, this economist at George Mason, writes about how incentives can make people feel like slaves. And that's what happens if you just stop at incentives when you're asking your employees to come in and work overtime where they can feel like they didn't have any choice in the matter. Then at the end of that period, there's no goodwill left. There's no engagement. And in a case like we have now, where we have this great reset or stagnation or resignation or whatever you want to call it, if all you've offered employees as their incentive to work with you is money, they're just going to go look for more money in another job, right? So she asked the magic question. She said, what would it take to. For you to feel good about coming in and working overtime during this crazy period? And they told her. And by the way, she said, of course I'm going to pay you money, obviously. So they said, listen, we take the bus. These are employees working in production. She's an executive. She doesn't have any idea how buses work, but they tell her the buses don't run at night, so we need cab fare. They say, we're hungry and we like pizza. Okay, good to know. And they tell her we're stressed about wrapping our Christmas presents, so if you could hire a Christmas present wrapper, that would be really helpful. So she does all of these things. Production hits record highs. Everybody got, I think it was a 30% bonus at the end of the year. And most importantly, after this crazy period where it's a big success, they're still excited to work for her. And to work for this company because they felt respected. So the magic question shifts the mindset from resistance to like. It's like there's this inner two year old inside all of us saying, you don't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. When someone's trying to persuade us, we shift that to collaborative problem solving. And like, with bus fares that you just wouldn't have known about, cab fairs and Christmas present wrappers, who could have had any idea, you get information that you never would have guessed. And then when the person sees that this roadmap has been followed, whether it's you following it or other forces or just waiting that needed to happen for that breadcrumb trail to lead to the outcome that you said that you wanted. So in this case, it's them being engaged and working overtime during this period when you've done the things they're happy to support that outcome. If you think of this in a personal situation, say at work, where you're thinking that you would really like to negotiate a raise or a promotion, you can use the magic question and you go to your boss and you say, what would it take for me to be at the top of the salary band? Or what would it take for me to get to the next level? They'll be so happy to tell you exactly what it takes because they want you to succeed and they want you to know how to succeed. And then when that trail of breadcrumbs is followed and you say, here's what you said it would took, here's what I've done, here's what else has happened. They've already implicitly committed to supporting that raise or supporting the promotion. And they'll do what they can to help you out if they have any shred of decency as a human being. Magic question, what would it take?

Zoe, this is great. This is really great. It's so great, in fact, that I'm going to use this the moment this conversation is done. Seriously, what are you going to ask for?

Do you know?

Oh, yeah. Because there was a situation here in the company where somebody was hired to do job. And then as they started to do the job, we realized that the job would take something completely different than we initially anticipated. And the only way we would know that is through execution. And so I feel bad as a boss because it's almost like I don't want them to feel as though this was a bait and switch where it's like, hey, we think you're going to do this. Hey, now you're doing that, and it's completely different. Right. So now we're moving them into another role that's same level but very important. And so I want to make sure that they feel respected and honored through the transition. And I know that I did not, as a leader, set them up for success, and I admitted that today. And so the question I'm going to ask is, what would it take for you to feel honored and respected in this new position as we go forward? And so I think when it comes to respect, you can only respect somebody based on what they feel would make them feel respected. I can't guess that. And I think in the past couple of months I've been guessing that. So I think this is the. This is like the question that can be the catalyst to getting things back on track. So I appreciate that. This is incredible.

Awesome. That's a great example. I love it. And we should be asking this kind of question of each other much more. We can also ask the magic question in lieu of criticism. So simple context is I had a teaching assistant who was repeatedly late and I was super stressed out. And I was really just wanting to yell at him, but I try to walk the talk when I can remember to. And so I said, hey, Saif, what would it take for you to come in on time every day for the rest of the semester? And he's talking to himself about his bicycle and his alarm clock. And he's like, okay. And I said, is there anything that you need from me? He's like, no, consider it done. And he not only does come in every day on time for the rest of the semester, but we've preserved this relationship because I helped him save face. And so we're cool with each other. Which is very different from me strong arming him into coming in every day on time for the rest of the semester.

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Yeah. Okay, so, Zoe, let's break down that example. Because it's really interesting because I think from the outside looking in, somebody who is not well versed in influence or persuasion, they might not fully appreciate the magic of the magic question. They might not fully understand what happened beneath the surface, because they'll just say, so we just asked a question and the guy talked to himself and then he changed his perspective. When you think about beneath the surface, if we're going to assume what was happening cognitively, what changed for him?

So I'm letting him know, hey, this thing in the past, that wasn't cool, but it's okay. Let's focus on the future and let's figure out a plan together. And it turned out we didn't need to do it together. But I'm also respecting that he knows about his situation, he knows what his obstacles are, he knows what his interests are, and I'm not telling him what to do. People hate to be told what to do. And people love to be asked their advice or for their expertise. So I'm saying, listen, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm asking for your input and your expertise here. What will it take? And in doing that, I'm just respecting him as a human being. And also here, he knows that because I'm his boss, I could have done this in a very different and much less respectful way. Right. I could have just called him out on it. And that's what I might have done in the past, as, you know, baby boss, when I was first trying to figure this stuff out, like, just if you're somebody's employee and you have to show up at a specific time, this is table stakes. You can't violate that. You have to be there at that time. And I had this sense of entitlement as a manager. And now I try to be unfairly forgiving with people whenever I can. And if we've been working together for a while, I trust you, I respect you, you can mess up and you can even mess up again. And I'll say, you know, what will it take for us to get on track? And then at some point, if it keeps happening, then we just realize this isn't working out. Right? But I really think it's so important for managers to have this bandwidth, this zone of forgiveness for people who've been doing a good job otherwise, and not to penalize people as though they have failed us as a human being just because they fell short in one area. And I think the pandemic has hopefully shifted a lot of people in this way.

Yeah, well, and hopefully it sticks because we have a tendency to forget. Yeah, absolute. Now, I want to go a bit deeper, Zoe, on one of the things that you said kind of in passing, but I think there's a lot of richness to it. You said unfairly forgiving. That's really interesting because I think, especially when we think about it from a leadership perspective, you might be a boss, you might be a manager, you might be a parent. Then also from self leadership, because a lot of time we need that internally driven motivation to go and do things, and we feel as though we're almost obligated to hold people accountable in a way that goes beyond assertive to aggressive, where we feel like it only works if it hurts a little bit. The advice of being unfairly forgiving almost flies in the face of that, because some people might say to themselves, but if I keep on forgiving people and I keep on letting them think that it's okay, then wouldn't that encourage that behavior? How do you reconcile persuasion as your superpower with this potentially problematic mentality of accountability needs to be painful.

There's this idea that a lot of us have, especially who are kind, that we don't want to be a doormat, right? We don't want to let people walk all over us, take advantage. And it's very, very different to be unfairly forgiving than to just pretend that everything is fine. So being unfairly forgiving means that there's some kind of acknowledgement that this thing didn't go well, it wasn't cool, this was an anomaly, and it's okay, and we focus on the future. I take inspiration of this effect or phenomenon from marketing that's called the service failure paradox. And what research finds is that sometimes when there has been some kind of snafu or even a disaster, the people who it happened to, if they're treated surprisingly well, end up being even more loyal than the people who never had that happen. And if we map this onto leadership, what this says is there are these moments of truth where something bad happens. Maybe it's a mistake that you made, maybe it's a mistake somebody else made. Maybe it's a tragedy or error that has nothing to do with either of you. If that person involved is treated unfairly or surprisingly well, they can be even more loyal to you or to the organization than if this negative event had never occurred. And for leaders, the two big ways of facing these kinds of situations are, first of all, taking responsibility yourself or the organization. When you or the team or the organization has done Something wrong. So you apologize and you say exactly what you're going to do to make sure this doesn't happen in the future. And compensation, if compensation needs to be paid, absolutely. And then the second piece, though, that most people don't think about is this unfair forgiveness where your employee or someone in your sphere makes a mistake or they fall short and you choose to forgive them, let it go, let them know that it's really okay. And you don't see that as who they are. It's just this thing that happened and we move forward. Employees can become so much more loyal when you're unfairly forgiving to them. And even if they have screwed up, if you are not forgiving to them, they can become disloyal. So their error is this moment of truth that can lead to loyalty or disloyalty, depending on how you handle it.

Wow, that's incredible. And now there's going to be, let's say somebody intellectually understands what they say. Zoe. That makes sense. My problem is I don't want to do that. How can somebody really adopt the mentality that allows them to do that? Because what I found, when it comes to negotiation trainings and things like that, a lot of times people can understand what it is that they need to do, but they struggle to do it because they simply don't want to do it. They don't feel like doing it. So how can we reconcile those two points?

Let's put this in some kind of concrete context, because we were talking about hierarchical relationships where you don't really get to say that to your boss. You don't really get to say, like, yeah, that makes sense, but I really don't feel like it. Right. So what's a. Like, is there a context that you face this? Or this is a general question. I can help you.

I think it's a general question, but let's use a simple conversation or a situation where there is no hierarchy. We're on the same level. Let's say a friend does something to offend me. They thought they were okay doing it at the time. Let's say there was no malice in what they did. But that happens in human interactions. Somebody does something, it causes offense. I'm hurt. And now they apologize. They say, hey, I'm sorry for that, but my feelings are hurt in the moment. And so, Zoe, even though I recognize that I could be unfairly forgiving in that moment, I don't want to extend. I emotionally don't want to extend that grace. So how can I adopt that mentality So I can do this in the moment, even though I don't necessarily feel like it.

Thank you. I thought we were talking generally about things people don't feel like doing. Now I understand you're saying, what if you don't feel like being unfairly forgiving? Thank you. I am not at all saying that everybody all the time should be unfairly forgiving. I am only saying that this is a tool for leadership that can be powerfully influential. And when it's powerfully influential is when you have power over this other person so you don't have power over your friend. And your friend makes some offensive remark and you saying, like, oh, okay, that's okay, I forgive you. It doesn't influence them because you didn't have power over them.

Gotcha. Oh, that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. I appreciate the clarification. That's really helpful. That's really helpful. And so it brings to light an important part of that dynamic. It's the power discrepancy. I remember the book Charisma Myth. I forget the woman who wrote it.

Was this Olivia Fox Cabane.

That's it. Yes. Yes, that is exactly. That's the person. One of the things that she said about Charisma was that it is power plus warmth. So I have power. I could use that power to make your life worse in this moment, but I also have warmth, and I'm not going to. And that draws people in. So I think it's persuasive. But also per that definition, you could also add charismatic, too. But I think most people listen for the persuasive tools. So I think this is really, really helpful.

Yeah. And thank you. That was a very important piece of all of this. That absolutely. It depends on power. And you feel that in relationships where people have power over you because you were anticipating the negative outcome of them being angry or disappointed or whatever that was. And when I say power, it doesn't have to be structural power. This includes people in romantic relationships have power over each other because we care so much what each other thinks of us.

Right.

So when your partner is unfairly forgiving of you or you're unfairly forgiving of your partner because you were feeling bad, that is influential. But it's if your friend is not upset or fearing that you were going to be upset about this thing, and actually what you're saying is they didn't even perceive that they made a mistake. Right. Like, they just said this offensive thing and they were like, yeah, you know, Yeah, I see that. That Rubbed you the wrong way. But freedom of speech, self expression, authenticity, all that, it's hard. And actually, since this is a topic that came up and right now my brain is just like, this is going to this one person in my life, close family member, who is so much like that, and he says offensive things. I get upset, other people get upset, and I haven't figured out how to navigate this. And all that I do is just say, okay, I would rather not be in this conversation anymore. And then I leave so that I'm just. I'm not part of it. And I figure this is at least not giving the positive reinforcement that says that it's okay. But what advice do you have about that?

That's a great example. I think we have to focus on power in this situation. Where is the power dynamic in this situation? It's equal like you and your relative in that situation. I think we all have friends or at least associates who are like that. We have to recognize that everybody has autonomy and control. They can do what they want. And so what you've done is you've said, hey, listen, I know you have freedom of speech. The speech that you used hurt my feelings. For the sake of the relationship, it would be helpful if you modified that. That has been communicated. And then that person says, I hear you, but I'm still going to be me. That is how I'm going to use my power. And so that is their choice. And the thing is, with life, one choice leads to another choice. They have a choice and you have a choice. And then you said, if that is what you would like to do, that's fine. And then I will choose not to be in this interaction with you in particular. And I'll choose to minimize my interactions with you in the future. You have that choice, I have my choice, and that's it. I think if we use this and break this down in the context of negotiation, it becomes really clear. We have offer and acceptance. I made an offer. My offer was rejected. Am I just going to sit here and accept the bad offer offer? No. I have a batna best alternative to negotiated agreement. And it is not spending time with you, sir. That's it. I think a lot of people miss that last point. They just said, well, I made that request and it wasn't given to me, so I guess I have to sit there and take it. No. If you think about it in the context of a negotiation, you always have options. And you need to feel empowered to execute upon those options. Because like you said, if you stay in the Interaction. It's almost like tacit content consent. I am essentially condoning this behavior and thereby encouraging it by my continued presence in this interaction. And we don't want to do that.

Yeah. And then I just feel bad about myself. Can I ask you about something that I think is so cool, and I also wonder if it's problematic, and this is your sparring sessions. It's so cool. I think it's so fun. And the problematic part. Part is that I talk to and train so many people who have this fear of negotiating because of what they see in Hollywood movies and things. So you and I know that people are negotiating all the time. We don't get through a day without negotiating. But there's this idea of negotiation with a capital N that usually involves strangers and usually involves money and usually involves a lot of money. And. And we hardly see any of these. And when I see people who feel like baby negotiators negotiating with each other, in the kind of cases you do in business school, there is a lot of bullying. That happens because people are scared and because people think that's how negotiating works. So how do you reconcile this idea that actually in real life, first of all, most people are just trying not to be suckers. They're not trying to take all of the value off the table. They're just trying not to be a sucker. And if you show that you're not trying to make them a sucker, they're like, okay, great. Let's just talk like normal people, figure things out together. So how do you let people know negotiating is actually way easier and more comfortable than you fear it is. But then also have this super fun, engaging, and helpful training paradigm of sparring sessions.

Yeah. Oh, it's a great question. Essentially reconciling the fact that you and I both see that essentially the media teaches us bad behavior, and we want to. Essentially, that's one of the goals of the negotiation. What we're doing with the American Negotiation Institute, rebranding negotiation with everyday episodes that we have, like this one, it's really cordial and nice, and we see the theoretical side, but everybody says, but, Kwame, what if it doesn't go right? That was a question I kept on getting. They're like, hey, I tried what you said in that, but it didn't work. So what do I do in that situation? That was really interesting to me because I said, oh, that's right. Because when we talk in this conversation, we were talking about the strategies, the tactics, how it should work in those situations, and we're Giving practical examples. But I realized I wasn't doing a good job of showing them. Hey, there are still tools and tactics and approaches that you should use when it breaks down. And if a specific tool or tactic doesn't work in that moment, that doesn't mean you abandon it. Part of the persuasive process is persistence. My goal with the sparring sessions is to show people. Even at my worst, and I say that in the disclaimer. I was like, don't look at what I'm doing, look at what the guest is doing. Even at my worst, you can still stay level, calmly and confidently use the tactics that we talk about, and eventually things go can be more productive. You have the skills to move forward. And I think it's fun for me because even when I'm trying to be unreasonable, I'm like, damn, Zoe's good.

I can't.

Ah, she's not breaking, she's not breaking. You know, and then we do the breakdown afterwards. So I think it's that part, recognizing that, yes, negotiation. These are everyday conversations and they should be approached as such. And there are going to be times when things get a little bit tough. But that doesn't mean that the skills that we're talking about don't work. That doesn't mean the ethos of respectful communication shouldn't be applied in this situation. It can be. You just have to believe and have confidence in the skills that you bring to the table.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the context and 100% amen to the but what happens if it doesn't work? And to modeling and role modeling. And I hope that people who are listening to those sessions will then also try role plays on their own. What I find when I have people role play an influence negotiation situation with somebody who disagrees with them or wants something else is. And I have them role play the other person. So you take the other person's role who's resistant, and then it'll be me or somebody else who's practicing the techniques. The fear is that this other person is going to be so abysmal or abominable or so, so, so resistant and recalcitrant that they're just going to roadblock you at every turn. Having had the experience of this sparring session then makes the real life session go so much easier. Because even if it's a little bit bumpy, it feels like it was a piece of cake.

Exactly.

And I'm glad you said that, because I think that's an element of roleplaying. That people often miss because they always say, okay, I'm Kwame. I'm going to play Kwame in this negotiation. No, you're going to actually play the other person first. And it helps them to empathize at a higher level, because I find when I start to do that, I start saying things that I never would have considered before for. I'm like, oh, you know what? The things that they were asking for aren't that unreasonable. I can actually see where they're coming from. So it helps me to anticipate a little bit more, and it makes it feel less scary because it feels like I've not only been there before, but I've been there before as that other person. And so it helps me to anticipate and feel more confident in my approach.

100%.

Yeah.

Oh, this is great. This is great. And I see we're coming up on time, but let me say this because you've given us some gems of wisdom on this show thus far. If you were going to give the audience one more parting piece of advice before you go, what would that be?

My parting piece of advice is people like you more than you realize, so you don't have to worry so much about that. There's research by Erica Boothby and other scientists finding that there's this 12% liking gap where when you meet somebody and afterwards, you say how much you like them, and you say how much you think that they liked you, you think that you liked the other person more than they liked you. So I just want to leave that as a little confidence builder. You're cooler than you think, and people like you better than you think that they do. So let that be easier for you. Walking into the next negotiation knowing that you're charming.

I love that. Zoe, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Thank you so much. Kwame.

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