Jeremy Delk: Failure is the Ultimate Teacher

If they would have just talked and said, hey, I need the inside, you take the outside. They get what they want, right? Because now they put it up to someone else at a third party by not communicating. What exactly is that you want? They both, neither of them are happy. They didn't know what they want and they wasted a ton of time and resources. So long orange juice story to tell. You say what you want, say what you need. Fucking just say it. Don't be scared of it. And then. And if you can't help him, you can't help, but you're. You're just speeding up that process. I'm telling you, for a guy like me or anyone that's pitching or getting investments or trying to get coached or whatever, our biggest resource is the time, right? I can't handle the bullshit. So just like, hey, I can help you. I can't help you, dude. I can help you. Good. You're decisive. That's decisiveness. That's kind of showing that. That piece and the vulnerability and transparency of admitting what you do know. That's great. You're a sort of manager, but it's even more powerful to be able to admit to a business partner, a colleague or investor. What is it you don't know? What keeps you up at night? What scares you?

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Jeremy, thanks for joining us today.

No, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Yeah, it is our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So I'm Jeremy Delk. I'm a small town kid. I'm from a town called Bargetown, Kentucky, which is probably most notable. We're the bourbon capital of the world. So grew up in a small town, probably 20 something thousand people, 25,000 people. It's grown quite a bit since. And by growing up there, I always had this ever yearning kind of feeling to want to do more, be more and see more. And that led me on a pretty wild and twisty turny ride. That's why I wrote a book called Without a Plan, because that's kind of how I live my life, knowing kind of where I wanted to go, but no clue on how to get there. So you've heard that adage, some Sinatra, right? You can make it here, you can make it anywhere. So New York was that kind of thing for me that I wanted to end up. And I ended up on Wall street through a quite interesting path, but went to school in Providence, was a day trader early on, made a bunch of money, lost a bunch of money as a kid and found myself in New York on Wall Street. And then I ventured out about 23, 24 years ago and started Delk Enterprises, which is my like family office venture capital firm. And we've been in, you know, I like to say we're industry agnostic. We've done everything from real estate development, hospitality, building materials to to life sciences, health wellness and health tech. So quite a bit of different businesses all in between that and yeah, excited, excited to be here. Yes.

And we're excited to have you because you have such a rich and diverse background when it comes to business and entrepreneurship. And what I like to see is people who have found success in different areas in different ways. And I'm assuming a big part of that is the through line of difficult conversations and negotiations. And actually, Jeremy, this isn't something that we were planning on talking about, but I think it could be an interesting element of the conversation too, because if we think about that journey from Bargetown to Wall street and you got there without a plan, I'm assuming there were some tough conversations that helped to steer.

You on your way.

Can you tell the audience a little bit about that too?

Yeah, well, I mean, I love the topic and like the title of your podcast, I Can Negotiate Anything. Because what I found, and this may be a different spin on what you guys talk talk about typically, but outwardly looking in at like, hey, how do you negotiate from a boss? A tough sales call, how do you negotiate that? I found the hardest negotiations I've had in my life have largely been with myself. Right. And I think a big thing I talk about in the book is the title of the book's Without a Plan. And the subtitle is A Memoir of Unbound Action and Failing My Way to Success. So that's really, I think the big piece I really preach on is failure and, and our human. I think how we're conditioned when we were younger, it was school and everything, but how we're conditioned to look at failure as this negative connotation and this negative thing where I believe failure is everything. Failure is where the learning happens. Failure breeds confidence, and that's where you get to success. Right. But for me, that kind of gave me the foundation of getting through it and using that as the confidence of like, wait, that was a really tough time, but I didn't stop and I actually got through it. So humans innately are, you know, we're very protective, psycho somatic, and you know, we lose a parent or we have trauma in our life, we grieve, have those things, and we just kind of block that out. And I don't think you should look in the rearview mirror and live your life that way. But we are so strong. Everyone on your podcast right now has had a career, ending relationship, ending life, ending thing that's happened to them. In my world, my life is over, but it's really not right. You kind of got through, but you forget about that. So for me, that springboard, like when I decided I built myself back up, I moved from Rhode Island, Boston, with fidelity and on Wall street, making more money than both my parents combined. As a young 20 something in Manhattan, I wasn't fulfilled. I was just. I was only making money, a lot of it. But I found out very fortunately that I was a creator And I like creation. I love business, I love learning. And that was kind of my passion for me. And, and probably like a lot of young folks. But what was different for me is I wasn't scared of the risk. I wasn't scared of failing because I looked back and I literally had the conversation with myself. So this goes back to negotiating. I wouldn't negotiate with myself. I'm like, dude, how bad can it be? How bad can. Can it actually be? Where you. Are you going to lose $2 million again in four days? Probably not, right? So if you go out, give it your all for a year and fail, dude, okay, you can go back to Wall Street. You can go and do that. So that's that negotiation that you kind of go through. So I think that was a deal I made with myself that, hey, you don't know, and let's give it a try. But I don't know if I would have had the fear, if I would have had the courage to do it, if I hadn't already proven to myself that I could pick myself up so much more. I think that's what happens. Like, you see it and you see it so often, especially in corporate America, which there's a need for corporate America jobs and all that. But I'm an entrepreneur at heart, and I saw myself. If I didn't leave, I would have died. Like, not physically, but mentally. And mostly I think I would have died because I saw it happening. I was this young kid who had all these ideas and things that were, I thought were good. Maybe they weren't all good, but some of them were good. And it was just like, sit down, kid, stay in your lane, kind of go through. And you're taught this conformity approach, which wasn't for me. So that was negotiating. I had really with. With myself and have that hard conversation. And then once I came to that decision, I was going to do it. Nothing was going to stop me. I told my mom, like, hey, I just resigned today. She thought I was absolutely crazy. Like, Jeremy, you just pulled yourself out of this. Two years ago you were a wreck. Now you're like on top of the world. What is wrong with you? Are you just a masochist? And I made a deal, gave myself a year. And that was 24 years ago.

Oh, man, this is so good. And I think this is such a strong place for us to start, right? Because it's funny, we. We hear so much about post traumatic stress, right? Something that really, really bad happened to somebody and it caused damage for a prolonged period of Time, mentally. And that's very real. There's studies and people have experienced it. Something that people don't talk about enough is the reality of post traumatic growth where something really bad happens and then they use that as a catalyst for growth. And I feel like if we talk about that more, more people would lean into the power that can come from failure. And that's not to undermine what other people gone through and the trauma that they carry, but it's also to recognize that there is another way to look at this so we can push forward and excel.

Yeah, I mean that is where the true growth happens. I speak a lot on stage and for events and I always have this fun exercise is who in the last three or four years their business has had the biggest transformative growth, the biggest impact in revenue, sales, differential thing, pivot, whatever it is, like who's had that? And then you'll get a few hands that run that roundup and then I don't care which one you pick. What was happening in the business six months prior to that chaos? Something was going on. And it's that piece where. And that's why this, this thesis on without a plan. I'm not saying we talk about in the opening of the book like I'm not saying you should just have some vision board and think it's all lollipops and gumdrops. That's just stupid and naive. But I'm a firm believer that and cause I've just seen it happen in clients I've coached that they have got this 275 point plan for the next three years that, I mean, show me a plan that was like, who had a business plan for a global pandemic in 2020? Like you just don't, you don't have these things. You don't, you can't.

I agree, I agree. I like that military saying, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. And that's where the resilience comes in. You have to be adaptable and flow. And now when I think about pivoting back to negotiations and difficult conversations because we talked about the first hard conversation really has to come with yourself. You have to have that conversation with yourself. And what's funny is you said I had to have that hard conversation with myself and then make a decision. And then it's the exact same framework that we use in actual tough conversations and negotiations. At the end of the day, negotiation is a problem solving tool, but it's also a decision making mechanism. We have these hard conversations for a reason. So we can decide and advance. And so when you found yourself in those tough situations, when you were now pulling yourself up and you had that conversation with yourself, and then you started to. You had to build a team.

Yeah.

For the VC firm that you would start. How did you get people to buy into your vision? What did those conversations look like?

Yeah, I mean, really bad at first. Right. Well, and I talk about this now. Now I'm on the other side of the table. Right. I. I invest with my own money. I make my own decision. So founders are pitching me where I was on the other side of kind of pitching. And. And I talk. And like, the book is very much about business and my life there, but it's also about the personal side. I've talked about really intimate and. And hard to talk about things that I think have really related to people because business is so personal. But, you know, one of those pieces of things that took me a long time to understand is no one fucking cares about you. Right. Other than maybe your mom and your wife, your kids, like, no one cares. And we. When you go to the thing with fear and what am I going to ask Kasey or what am I going to go through? Like, we all. Well, what's. If I do this and I fail, what are they going to think? What's this going to happen here? What if I ask this? Whatever. No one cares like you are you. Like, everyone cares about themselves. Everyone's going through their same struggles, and they're all in their own head. So you have to get that out of your way, number one. Number two, if you understand and agree that no one really cares about you and not be like, I'm not trying to be like a negative care about you, but no one like your things that happen to you in your family unit. Yeah, it could be a hot topic for. At a cocktail party, but after that, they have their own stuff. Right. And everyone has their own stuff that they're worried about. But what that does is lifts this massive burden that we put on ourselves of, like, let me just be who I am. And then you can be way, like, I'm all about authenticity and just being yourself and like. Like there's, you know, hundreds of millions of people in this world. Not all of them have to fucking like you. And that's okay. Like, know who your tribe is and know what it is going through. So you get that authenticity. And then authenticity leads to vulnerability. Right. And if you can be that, it just speed dates everything, whether it's the girl you want to marry, the deal you Want to close the job, you want to get the company, you want to buy. Skip through the bullshit. So like a great example of like, let's make that practical. I've got a founder that comes into me and this is what I did so I could recognize it now. They asked me questions. Every question I asked them where I was asked. I had all answers. I knew it all. I had it all figured out. Bullshit. Like, no, you know, no one. I don't have. I've been this game for 24 years. I don't have it all figured out. Right. But, but if. So if you see that, like you're going through it just. It's just a natural thing of be people wanting to please people and hoe. If I'm going to be getting money from this guy, I have to have all the right answers. I've got to figure this out. I got to know I'm decisive. All these different things. I, I know you're either lying or naive enough to not know that you don't. You don't know. And that isn't good for anyone, right? So if you can be vulnerable and say, hey, I've got. I'm a great sales guy. I can sell iced Eskimos. I can do any of this stuff better than anybody, but I can't balance a checkbook. And I'm asking you for money. That's so reassuring to me. Cool, great. I got finance guys. Go sell make rain. I can now help you because now more than money, you're telling me where you suck at as opposed to telling me you have all the answers. Six months later you burn through cash. And so just be vulnerable. And people are like, oh, well, I can't say that because again, what are they going to think? It's not like this is. It's going to a personal relationship, dude, you know, don't act like you're not who you are because your marriage ain't going to work, bro. Like, you see me say, hey, listen, I'm a great guy, I'm loyal, I'm loving, but I'm probably a little sloppy or I'm this like, just be yourself and it will either work or it won't. But you are doing each other a disservice in your personal life, friendships, business, what have you. So the quicker you can kind of get down to that, your negotiating point, just you bridge it down, right? Because I've seen it. There's a. I got a bunch of lawyer buddies that. And I think they do this maybe in. In the like AUSA Training or something. They do this where they're both given a case. This was what I was told from a lawyer. And they have prosecution and defense, right? And the prosecution is basically like fighting over who has intellectual property over an orange. And I promise it sounds fucking silly, but they'll get there. And they bring expert witnesses in on both sides. They're going through and fighting over who has this IP of orange. Well, hey, is it a three legged stool model I've done? This was prior art. I have a US provisional, but we didn't follow the thing. All this stuff for a four week trial, blinded, right? They're going through it and cost, you know, it didn't really cost as a, as a moot court, but it took months and months, four months to go through and basically it ended up getting cut up. The judge made a ruling, split it up, had a royalty agreement and it was letter. So they wasted four months, okay, going through it and neither party got what they wanted. Each party had a business, a fake business that they were going, they were kind of going through and that's what they were fighting for. Prosecution had a global distribution of orange juice concentrate sales throughout South America. The defense had a novel technology that used orange peels for bioenergy. If they would have just talked and said, hey, I need the inside, you take the outside. They get what they want, right? Because now they put it up to someone else as a third party by not communicating what exactly is that you want? They both, neither of them are happy. They didn't know what they want and they wasted a ton of time and resources. So long orange juice story to tell. You say what you want, say what you need, fucking just say it, don't be scared of it. And then, and if you can't help them, you can't help. But you're, you're just speeding up that process. I'm telling you, for a guy like me or anyone that's pitching or getting investments or trying to get coached or whatever, our biggest resource is the time, right? I can't handle the bullshit. So just like, hey, I can help you. I can help you, dude, I can help you. Good. You're decisive. That's decisiveness. That's kind of showing that, that piece and the vulnerability and transparency of admitting what you do know. That's great, you're a sort of manufacturer. But it's even more powerful to be able to admit to a business partner, a colleague or investor. What is it you don't know? What keeps you up at night? What scares you?

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Oh, Jeremy, this is so good. So good. So let me do a quick recap and add to it because I want to make sure that the audience could capture this brilliance here too. Because when you start to recognize that people are not thinking about you as much as you think they are, it is one of the most freeing realizations you could ever have. Because a lot of times we make decisions based on the perceptions of others. What are they thinking? Thinking about me, trying to avoid judgment and trying to inflate our status and make us look better than we actually are. But if we can just say, hey, they're not thinking about me as much as I think they are because they're busy worrying about their own stuff now. It liberates me to be myself and be authentic. And I think that's one thing that's lacking a lot of times in the negotiation world, it's that authenticity. So I am going to figure out what it is that I truly want, who it is that I truly am. And once I get clear on that, now I can negotiate with clarity. But what we often have is we have these people who have incredible negotiation skills going to the negotiation table and getting what they want, only to find out that is the worst deal possible because they were not authentic and true to themselves and true with the other person. And when you can just say, hey, this is what I'm good at and this is what I'm not good at. We're not being vulnerable in a naive type of way where we're putting ourselves at a strategic disadvantage. We're being authentic in a way that allows us to find the right deals with the right people and the right partnerships. Because now they know who we are and it gives them the license, license to be authentic and vulnerable with us as well. So they are more likely to show us who they are and what they really need. And now we can have really transparent conversations and better deals.

A hundred percent I'm sure you've, you've talked about this book, but never split the difference, right? I mean, that's like Costa Negotiation, one of the greatest negotiating books ever. But I mean, again, I won't ruin the book. And. But you guys can get the idea. But the whole idea of going into a negotiation with this bullshit thing that you already gonna start, like, hey, I want to buy the house or I want to buy the company, I want to pay a million for it. Starting off at 500 knowing you'll go to a million, it's just okay. Like, just skip those parts because it's silly dancing as opposed to going through. And I think the other piece of negotiating, like the, the you heard that adage, like the best sign of a good deal is no one's happy, right? I don't necessarily believe that, but I, I do try and really understand, like, I just put an offer in for a commercial deal that I think is a great deal. I know the guy is not going to accept it because he's a pretty shrewd business person, but we'll see if I'll get it or not. But I put in a situation that is a great opportunity for him. Like, it really takes him out and gives him a lot of aligned on our pieces. Like, hey, listen, I'm willing to take some risk. I know what you're in the deal for. I'm basically doubling your value for that. We are aligned on whatever upside deal I get. We're splitting it. So we're starting off on a basis of like, this is not me getting over some tricky put option or something like that. We're starting off on a basis where I'm consciously not. Of course I'm thinking about myself, what I want, but I'm trying to put myself in their situation and is it a good deal for them? Because if it's not, like, are they ever going to do a deal with you right if you got them right and really kind of true somebody. It's just a shitty way to live. Like, I can. Like, I've got lifelong friends that started off as business relationships. Lifelong. And I wouldn't have that if I fuck people. Right. That's just not a way to do it. There's no reason that there's. There's enough. There's an infinite supply of money, especially with the Fed printing it every day. But there's so much money out there and opportunity that it's. Life's too short. Just be genuine. Come up with something that's a great deal. Could you make more money being super shrewd. Yes. But like, I just don't personally think that's a way to live. And you're going to probably never do a deal with that person again as opposed to like, you know what? Del actually took care of me on this one and this. Like that, that currency of your, your word and your reputation that you can't buy. And you can't speed it up either. It's just you got to start doing the right thing every time.

That's powerful.

And I think it's even more legitimate coming from somebody like you who has made millions, who has a VC firm. You're negotiating deals at the highest level. And now this is really good. People can understand this. And I'm with you 100%. And now I'm hearing somebody in the audience saying, all right, Jeremy, I got you. But not everybody thinks this way. So I can come up here being all nice and vulnerable, open and honest, but there's some sharks out there who think the old school way. So how do I make sure that as I'm negotiating with authenticity and using strategic vulnerability when appropriate, how do I make sure that they don't come in and eat my lunch?

Yeah, look, I mean, don't mistake kindness for weakness. Like, I'm the nicest guy until I'm not, right? So like it's like you, you have to have the tool belt, man. You have to have it all. I'm just saying the right. And I, I think it's the, it's of my opinion you don't want to use that bullet first. But let them know, right? Let them know you have that in the chamber that you can kind of go through and do it. It's not the way to do it, but yeah, you can't be a meek, meager oh shocks. I mean, you got to be able to kind of go in and you know, we, we've seen this. Like we try to do strategic deals for bolt ons in coming in. I think coming in with kindness and an opportunity is the right way to do it at first. But if you're met with adversity, just tell them. Right? I mean, that's best thing I've ever done is like it's so some secret plan. I tell them, well, let me tell you what I'm going to do. Like we, I read this in the book. We had a lawsuit with an animal health company and this guy was just fucking an asshole. And we went through and it was in federal court in San Diego county and I flew out there and this was a little bit of a bluff. I have like 250 grand. I said, I had $2 million legal defense fund. I had a couple hundred grand in it. And he was suing us for a patent infringement. His patent argument was weak. He wasn't even the. The. He was a licensee of it. And the person, the university where he had the IP from, we were friends with. So I basically kind of went to him. We're in mediation in San Diego. I see him in a hallway because we've taken a break of four hours mediating and walked up to him and said, listen, I don't give a fuck. The lawyers, they told me not to talk to you. But I'm going to tell you what this is going to do. We're either going, I've got. I'm on the red eye. This was like back and then. I don't know if they still have it or not, but Delta has a nonstop from San Diego to cvg. And I was on that red eye and I'm like, if I get on that plane and we don't have a settlement, I will spend every bit of this $2 million, like, wiping you clean. I will lower my prices to 50% of yours until I put you out of business. I'm stupid. So you make the decision and I deliver the message very articulately. Where he, I think, got it. An hour later, we were in a hotel lobby. I was having a cocktail. He was having a cocktail. And our lawyers were sitting across from drafting settlement agreements and press release. So. And it wasn't a threat. I wasn't prepared not to do it. I would have done it. It would have hurt us both. But you have to show that. Sometimes you have to show the teeth. Like, hey, there's one or two ways we can work together, work against each other, and nothing. This was a very small emerging business. And I said, guys, like, you're fighting a battle in a market we haven't even built yet, right? Do you see, like big pharma fighting on? Like, do you see Ozempic fighting with other lyric, goose, hide or whatever? No. There's enough people over there overweight that they can sell to. So, like, they're just talking about the benefits of GLP1s, not like Olympics better than this one. So, like, take a script out of their book, man. Like, they're building a market and all, taking a piece of a much bigger market. You want to kind of fight, so which way do you want to go? And again, that was being super authentic. Like, this is what's going to happen one or the other, you choose, and I can't make that decision for you. But he saw, and I think probably his board saw that we were serious.

That's brilliant. I'm so glad you said that, Jeremy, because what I recognize is that people have this binary type of thinking where they say, all right, either you're a nice guy or you're a mean guy or whatever. But really, the greatest negotiators are the ones who have range. They have the right tools for the right situation. And in the majority of situations, going in, being warm, being friendly, being compassionate, empathetic, that is the way to go. And then as you go through the interaction, you're going to recognize with this particular person and this particular situation, I recognize that that strategy by itself is not going to work. And when you think about game theory, for example, they say, all right, the best strategy is tit for tat. So without going too deep into economic theory with this, just recognizing that, hey, if you are nice and friendly, then the other person is nice and friendly. We can both go on and negotiate in a nice and friendly way. If they betray you, if they do something mean, if they are aggressive, then you respond with that. With something that lets you. Lets them know, hey, you're not going to take advantage of me.

I'm going to be very, very clear.

You have to be clear with that boundary and set it very, very clearly. So the best negotiators recognize that sometimes, hey, being warm and friendly works. And they also recognize that sometimes you need to put your foot down and defend yourself, because there's no superhero with a cake who's going to come in and save you. It's your responsibility to save yourself. And I love the fact that you still tied this in with being authentic, because you were being authentic. You're saying, hey, listen, I want to work with you. I want to get this done, But I want to be very clear about what happens if we do not get this done within this time period. This is going to be my next move. And that was authentic.

And you can't. And like the only piece add on that it can't be a fake threat, Right?

Right.

It can't be a fake threat. You have to be. It's your word, like, I will do this deal, and you have. We can have the lawyers draw the paperwork, and I will be the nicest, and we'll just. We'll do the deal and we'll be fine. That has to be true. Same thing is, I will blow it up I will blow my company up and your company up just for principle. You have to be, and you have to be willing to do it because otherwise you get called on that really quickly. And you're the boy crowd wolf and no one believes you have teeth, but you do it once and then you show someone else and you. And I call it hanging a body in the lobby. Right? You hang a body in the lobby sometimes and they see that. All right, well he's done it before, so what do you want to do? And I think that's the piece. I mean you see a lot of stuff in 20 years.

Absolutely, absolutely. It's like, hey, sometimes you have to recognize that the war chooses you. We go in peaceful. And sometimes the war chooses you and it's your responsibility to step up and do something. And now, before we go, because I know we're coming up on time, I want you to think about in all the difficult conversations that you've had, difficult negotiations or conversations in general, what would be the one piece of advice, one foundational piece of advice you would give the listeners when it comes to what it takes to become an effective negotiator?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it really starts with everything with yourself at first, really getting comfortable and understanding what your core beliefs and non negotiables are. So that's, that's kind of like your moral compass of what you're willing to do and what you're willing not to do. Having that internal peace and. Cause it's just gonna give you so much more strength by understanding that, hey, I'm okay being who I am. I love myself. Like I didn't love myself for a long time. I did a lot of therapy and kind of going through it like you know, just self destructive behaviors and all kinds of stupid stuff and like learning to love yourself because you can't love anyone else until you do, right? So think getting. So basically what I'm saying is kind of getting your own house in order. Like who am I? Am I comfortable with myself? Do I love myself? Do I believe in what I'm doing? Because if you don't have those things, you're not going to be able to lead, you're not going to have anyone follow you. You're not going to be able to negotiate authentically. So it's getting to that point of where you can be your most truest and authentic self. So that's the, probably the first, the first part, because if you're a fraud and you're just fucking lying to yourself and you kind of put it through that, hey, it gets tiring me, like I couldn't do it. Like, I am who I am. Like you like me, don't like me, I don't care. But like, I can't be two people. It would be so hard to be that. So it's like two jobs. So once you kind of get that, you're further than 95% of the population, right? You refer the 95% value. So now when you go into the agreement, into the thing, before you look at yourself and what, what it is in my deal, right, That I want in this conversation, put yourself in their situation. We're having a meeting. What would be the best outcome for them, right? And, and, and it really starts there and then, and then, because also it speeds you up. Like if you're just completely different direction, different, you know, modes, whatever, you're probably never going to get to a deal anyway. So like just, that's fine, never get to a deal. Just accept yourself as colleagues or adversaries and just kind of move on. But putting them first on, like, hey, what would an optimal deal look like for them in your mind? You don't know all the information, but you're taking a hypothesis of what that is, then could you live with that? And then could you work in a framework that would make your deal your optimal situation good as well? You're never going to, but that's a good place to start. Then you can start prioritizing what's really most important to you, kind of. And that's where the negotiation comes in, whatever. So that's that. Then the. And I'm not giving you any direct answers, but the once you have all that stuff, the one thing that you should do after you get all your house in order is my team hates this. And this is going to be hard for most people that are planners. Don't go into the meeting with any predisposed plan or objective. Just go in there, talk about you talk about what you want to do, talk about it. And that sounds so asinine because, like, hey, I need to know what I want. But you don't know. You think, think that you know what goes on in their office. They have a dumpster fire. We have a company that we were trying to make it their whole board. You can look at a public company, their whole board resigned last two weeks ago. Like it's in a free fall. Like you think you know what's going on, but you don't know, right? So going into it, I can't tell you how Many times I went to a meeting that went that we thought was going to be a joint venture sales agreement that halfway through we're like, this is an acquisition target. Like we're going to buy this company, right? So you never know. But when you go into the meeting, vulnerable, authentic. Hey guys, this is what we think. You guys are doing some really cool shit. We're doing some cool stuff, Whatever. Hey, you guys are this. We think we could be a great value add. If I'm selling them a product good or service, whatever that is. Go in there with confidence of who you are, confidence of what it is, but just you sharing and being vulnerable and being. Because like, what are you not gonna give me trade secrets or algos that you're like, just tell them where you want to go, be honest with them. You will be surprised on what they will tell you. And now you actually are at the table and like, wow, like we can really do something cool together. And I'm telling you more times than not, well, you just get to the result quicker. Like, I'm not saying this isn't a recipe that you're gonna get every deal done, but every deal isn't meant to be done. But it's managing time and going through and getting to that result of figuring out, hey, there's nothing to be here but like, we appreciate you and like, let's not fight, right? Let's just kind of go through but. And hey, I'm not a customer today, but I really respect you and like, this is what would really good, especially if I'm honest. I'm thinking more deals, like how to do deals if you're selling something, dude, maybe your product sucks right now, but you want them to tell you it sucks. They're not going to. They feel like you're just buttoned up and you only leave your product go in there like, hey man, we, we really love this. We think what's good, we think this is a great fit. But dude, you are our ideal customer and I want to hear your honest feedback because if, if you don't buy this product from us, then we failed you. And I want you to tell me because we built this in our little black box thinking that this would be the best product for you. If you don't buy it, then it's not price because the value we give you is so massive. So of course it can't be price. We must not have. We missed the mark. And my obligation is to my company, but really to you as a, as a potential customer. Tell us what we did. What did we do right? Or what can we do to make this product an absolute game changer for you? All of a sudden they're giving you the shit to sell them. They say, well, if it did this, this and this. So, okay, Kasey, so if you tell me if we were able to take this, make the integration easier and make this and do these things, that would be something that you guys would use? Absolutely, Jeremy. Cool. I'll be back to you in 30 days. Right. And you've just got to that point as opposed to like, oh, we went to the sales meeting, they didn't like it, it is a miss. So again, it just breaks down. This shit is easy. I've been in different businesses because business is. Business is business. You're dealing with people. That's it. People have their own challenge, your own problems, and they're trying to look for their own solutions for their own things. That matters to them. Ask them what matters to them.

This is great, Jeremy. You ended with some fire there, man. I appreciate it. And before you go, remind the listeners again about your book and how they can get in touch with you.

Yeah, so I'm jeremydelk.com, jeremy S. Delk on all socials, the books without a plan. So it's on audible, Amazon, anywhere Barnes, and nobody where you find find books. But yeah, check it out. It's got some good stories. It's a bit Wolf of Wall street and Slash. Like the hangover problem. Yeah, that's right. The best way, but with business advice. But look, business is personal, man. And you should keep it, make it personal and lean into it. Have fun and get to love yourself and know what's important to you.

Amazing. Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, my friend.

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