Jonathan Jones Shares Contract Negotiation Secrets

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Jonathan, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, glad to be here. Thank you for the opportunity.

Yeah, my pleasure, man. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Certainly. So I'm Jonathan Jones. I'm a two times TEDx speaker, bestselling author, and now I'm just focused on helping speakers, coaches and consultants start their podcast and show them how I can elevate their brand.

Fantastic. And you have a background in college athletics too, right?

Correct, correct. I was a junior college national champion as well as finished out my career at the Division 3 level. But yeah, it was a good journey. It was a good journey.

That's great, man. That is great. Yeah, I was one of those people who I was a spectator, professional spectator.

That's great, man. Well, today we are going to talk.

About name, image and likeness contracts. And so this is revolutionizing student athletics and I think it's a really cool opportunity to talk about how negotiation is playing a role in the development of that side of the Business. And so we're going to rely on your background, not only as a student athlete, but also in your previous work working with student athletes. And then we're going to transition into a really unique way that the student athletes can get more power and leverage in their negotiations. And listeners, of course, you know that the principles that we talk about can be used in whatever negotiations you're having day to day as well. So, Jonathan, how about we start off with just a brief overview with name, image and likeness and why it's such a big deal this year?

Certainly. So name, image and likeness is just. What's the best way I can break it down? Okay, so ultimately, college athletes for the longest time have been competing. And after their four years or some, maybe a few more years than that, their bodies are beat up, their bodies are bruised, and sometimes they don't really have what they would like to be able to show for it in terms of monetary gain, maybe even in terms of status. So name, image and likeness has been such a big thing where, because universities, colleges and other institutions have been able to benefit and have been able to generate billions of dollars over the past I'm not sure how many years. And now this is the year to where college athletes can now be able to benefit from in a monetary standpoint as well. So that's why Kwame, I think it's so big now because there are former athletes who might have graduated and they thought they were going to go pro or they thought they were going to do this or do that, but then they didn't have those opportunities. So now they're the individuals who are left like, wait, well, how can I benefit when my name was at the highest point, when I had the most exposure and, you know, they didn't really gain as much traction as they could have at that time. So now with student athletes going through institutions and now with them having the opportunity to be able to benefit directly and right now I think is huge.

Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing is, the schools and the ncaa, they might have said, well, you know, you didn't come and do this for free. You got a scholars. So you say, well, so you got billions of dollars and I got a.

Scholarship when I was, when I was here to play sports.

Okay. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It's not fair. And so finally we're taking that step where student athletes can get paid for what they do and in generating so much money for these institutions and the media companies and all those things. Right. And so great, now we're in the wild Wild West.

So, so now we're in a situation.

Where great, we can make this money and there are limited rules and nobody's done this before. And we have a lot of sports agents, a lot of lawyers getting in there and then negotiating these contracts. And for the listeners who don't know, yes, I am the managing director of the American Negotiation Institute, but I still practice law. And actually Jonathan, this is new since we chatted, so I'm a registered sports agent now too.

Congratulations.

Thank you. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I feel like the rock in ballers, but just a lot smaller.

Very nice.

Yeah.

And so it's been fun. It has been a lot of fun.

Because I like to keep my negotiation skills sharp. But again, we're learning just like everybody else. And so even though there are a lot of opportunities, I want to see from your perspective as somebody who was a student athlete and has worked with student athletes, what are some of the challenges and opportunities that have been presented with this new situation?

So challenges for one, we have to be very careful of where the money comes from. For instance, if this is a student athlete, they're ranging from probably 17 to upwards of mid 20s.ish. And if this is an individual who's 17, 18 and they get a check from Coors Light, they get a check from Bud Light. This presents some. It's like, wait a minute, you have to be at least 21 to drink in most states. So there is some conflicting just perspectives with that. But then the other part that I feel is really challenging, even though I've seen a few athletes really aid. The best way that they possibly can in this situation is some students are going to be quote unquote, worth a lot more than others. The starting quarterback versus the star player on the rowing team. This is going to be, there's going to be, you know, just some questions to where it's like, well, how can this person command 10,000, $7,000? But then this person over here might get what would be quantified as maybe peanuts, Right. So just, just thinking of things like that. But then even outside of that, Kwame, just thinking of everybody isn't ethical and everybody doesn't have the athletes interests to the forefront or at heart. So then it's like, well, how do we determine what, what legal representative, what legal representation would be best? And then even outside of that, it's just, how do we even know if this student athlete signs this contract, if they'll be able to truly fulfill what's being expected?

Yeah, it's tough. There are A lot of questions. There are a lot of questions. And what makes it even more difficult is that it might be the student athlete themselves trying to negotiate this deal. And they're young, they don't have much life experience, they don't have much business savvy or legal knowledge. Because we have a contract is a legal matter, right? And then you also have the people who come in and try to take advantage of the situation and say, hey, I'm on your side. I will be your representation. And again, they don't know how to effectively protect themselves. And so for you, if you were talking to a student athlete who was presented with these opportunities, let's say there's a business opportunity coming their way and they've been given a contract. And then there's also the people who want to work with them and represent them on those contract contracts. What advice would you to a student athlete who finds themselves in that position?

So, first and foremost, I would say if we're looking at a contract and I know they're seeing dollar signs and they're seeing money that they may have never seen before, I would ask them, are you legitimately interested in promoting this brand? Do you have any passion or is there anything about this brand, core beliefs or anything that aligns with what you believe? So, first and foremost, I would just encourage them with that. But then the second part, I would strongly urge them to get legal counsel, get vetted legal counsel, Right. And then even another piece of that is that there are many different departments on campus who might even be able to aid in this. Right. With the business department on campus and then the legal department on campus. But outside of that, you want to make sure that you get somebody who is going to comb through the contract and somebody who doesn't have an ulterior motive. You want to make sure that when you're sitting down and before you put your name on this piece of paper, that you're not signing away like your life on this piece of paper. So we have to keep those things in mind before we put our name on anything and before we even move forward, because there's going to be other opportunities. So we just want to make sure that we just don't sign a life away with just the first one that we see because we are naive to the money.

Right.

And something else to recognize is the different types of allies you need to.

Have on your team.

So for me and my colleagues at Carlisle, Patchen and Murphy, we do legal representation so we can help people with contract negotiation. That's my role Obviously.

Right.

And then we have people on the estate planning side. Maybe you want to make sure that the money isn't just spent willy nilly. You wanted to make sure you put it in a trust to make sure that you have some for later on. Right. And so lawyers can help with the legal side. But for me, even though I'm a registered agent legally, because I have to be when I'm working with student athletes, I'm not the kind of agent that goes out and finds deals. I don't source deals. So you have to understand who's on your team and make sure that they stay in their lane. You should have somebody who is an accountant who understands the tax ramifications for the deals that you're creating. And then if necessary, you can have an agent that you work with that can help you source the deals. But understand the agent probably should be kind of limited to sourcing the deals, maybe negotiating the deals. But contract review should be with an attorney. So it's just like any other team. Right. You know, we have to make sure the right person is in the right place. We don't want the quarterback lining up under center. He might be very talented, but that's probably not where he should be.

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I'll catch you later.

Most definitely. Most definitely. And I'm glad you actually said that, Kwame, because talking about just when it comes to taxes and then when it comes to making sure that money is allocated correctly, because, yeah, you sign a contract for $10,000, but then after that, okay, we need to make sure that we do have some money put away for taxes. We want to make sure that we take care of the IRS and all these other things before we start. Just like you said, spend the money willy nilly. So I'm glad you brought that up.

Absolutely. And the other thing too is recognizing that sometimes you're not the best person to negotiate for yourself. That's a big one. I'll be honest with me. Right. So for me, as a lawyer, I negotiate on behalf of my clients. That's not a problem with A. And I, I have my, my team negotiate Ari contracts too. So when it comes to talking about the numbers, I recognize that I'm too close to this. I like doing the work too much. And so I need to give it to somebody else with the young athletes. They might be too excited. What $10,000? I just need to smile.

You might need to outsource that work.

Agreed, Agreed. That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, man. And so now let's talk about some of the opportunities too, because we don't only want to focus on the negative side. And I think when you enter this, like I said before, the wild, wild west, it can be overwhelming. There are just too many opportunities. I don't even know where to go. Where should I start? And so for those athletes who, who want to try to take advantage of this, let's, let's start with the mindset. What type of mindset should they start to adopt before they even start to like, have these conversations with these companies?

The first type of mindset or the first thing they need to, to begin to adopt, Kwame, is understanding that brands like Coca Cola, brands like Pepsi, brands like Amazon, as they see those as major corporations and major brands and major companies, that's how they need to begin to see their own name, image and likeness. Just understanding that they are a walking corporation and that there is a value that's associated with them. And I'm not here to say, you know, don't value yourself this much or value yourself this much. But the, but the biggest thing I want them to begin to think about is that there are a lot of opportunities and understanding that when a company is reaching out to them, a company is going to want to do what's in the best interest of their company. So the individual, the young leader, the student athlete should also do what's in the best interest for themselves. So they have to take in the mindset. Just like what you said earlier, Kwame, we need to begin to structure a team. Right. And even if this isn't, you know, like having seven players or five people on your individual team, but you want to know that, okay, if we're talking about contracts, who's the person that we can have do the negotiation and do the legal piece? If I know that I'm not the best marketer for my own brand, then maybe we need to have somebody who is a representative as far as PR and different things like that, because we want to make sure that we cover all of our bases. And, Kwame, sometimes we're just too close. Sometimes we're too close. And when things are too close to home, that's when things can get blurry and the water can get a little bit muddy. So we have to take the mindset that we are a corporation, I am a brand, and then move forward as such.

Absolutely. And this transitions really nicely into another one of your realms, areas of expertise, which is building your brand. And so one of the things that's really interesting when it comes to negotiation, in any analysis of the negotiation playing field, we have to recognize power and leverage. Who has the power? Who has the leverage? Right. If you have power, then you can make the other side give you more.

Things without needing to give them more things. That's really what it comes down to.

Just a simple application of power. And what's interesting is power shifts with time, so different circumstances can be created, and your power can shift based on those circumstances. And so we'll talk a little bit about that later. But when it comes down to power in these types of negotiations, really it comes down to options. How many options do you have, and what are the quality of those options? And so now I want to pass it to you to kind of share with the audience your unique approach to building some more power in these negotiations through your brand.

Certainly. Certainly, Kwame, just like we talked about, a little bit offline. There's so much power in podcasting is where I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna stake my flag right there. Because understanding that you can be someone who has passion or you can be someone just really interested in a particular subject matter, and then you can go begin to do research. And then the more research you begin to do in that subject matter, for one, you can bring the audience with you or you can just begin to share things that you're learning and that begins to make you an authority in that space. For instance, I started this podcast maybe two months ago called you'd Podcast Mentor. And I just began to talk about different areas within podcasting. And then since I've said this is my one thing, this is the area I'm gonna focus on. Now, people come to me asking questions about podcasting. And when you talk about leverage and we talk about power, Amazon does the best job of this. They have the ratings and the reviews. And Kwame, I know you're familiar with ratings and reviews because your podcast has a ton of five star ratings and reviews. But when we talk about ratings and reviews, that's a level of authority, that's a level of credibility. So understanding that we want to ask ourselves what are we doing to begin to build our credibility and establish ourselves as the authority for this thing. And then the more we begin to do that, that's the more leverage that we begin to build when it comes time down the line to maybe talk partnership or maybe talk deals or whatever else. But either way, we begin to stake our flag right there. And we say, I'm an authority in this space. If you want no information about this space, I'm your go to guy. I'm your go to gal.

Absolutely. And so first, Jonathan, I would like to say thank you for the kind words on the review. And listeners, we could always use more reviews.

So if you like, certainly make sure.

To give us a five star review. But on a more serious note, you're absolutely right, because again, it applies to.

These student athletes, but it also applies to what we're doing day to day as professionals as well. So just think about the power of persuasion. So let's say I'm talking about medicine right now. So I'm talking about medicine. I sound minimally competent right now. Let's take those exact same words and I'm putting on a white coat right now. I'm a doctor, okay? Those same words, even though they might be the exact same words, they have more power because they're coming from a source that has credibility and authority, like you said. And so in our negotiations, if we start to build a brand using a podcast, for example, people can go to the podcast and hear a speak articulately on a topic. And so when you come into that negotiation when you're selling yourself your product or trying to persuade other people and show that, hey, I have, I'm an authority in this space. You should listen to me. If you say the exact same thing with a podcast versus without a podcast or whatever platform you use, it's going to be more persuasive because you have that authority that comes from that platform and the social proof, because it's not just that they can hear you say this, but they can also see that other people trust you as an authority as. As well.

Kwame, you said that so eloquently. You really said that so eloquently because. Yeah, I mean, it's just one of those things. It's just like somebody selling, I'm going to say, bean pies out of their trunk versus if somebody has a stand or somebody has a storefront to where they're selling. Is just a different level of credibility associated?

Absolutely. Yeah. And we have to think about it. It's like those, those NCAA commercials all the time. They say the majority of our athletes go pro in something other than sports. We know that statistically to be true. But then when you bring it to this situation, when we're thinking about negotiating these contracts right now, we realize, hey, if you have a podcast, you have a passion, you have an interest, you can demonstrate that level of competence in a way that attracts opportunities from that specific realm. So, hey, let's say I'm interested in gaming, for example. Great. Now I'm probably going to attract more sponsors in the gaming realm. And then down the road, let's say my professional career doesn't work out, I don't get into the league, or I get into the league and then I'm done. I've already established that year, those years of credibility in that space, which then provides me with more opportunities to parlay that and trans transition into that role as a professional career, too.

Certainly. And Kwame, one thing I also don't want us to miss is when you're. When you're in that lane, you establish that credibility. Now you're going to connect with other people who have credibility. And it might not be in the same lane per se, but there are other individuals who are trusted, other individuals who are vetted, other individuals who can communicate eloquently in their subject matter. So now you're getting put together in a network of elite, intelligent individuals based on you standing the test of time, for one. But then also by you being an action taker and by you taking the time to build something worth Sharing and something worth following.

Yep. And that is a great way to circle back to that point. When it comes to power, you're going to have more power. When you have more options, if you have a bigger network, you're going to be privy to more opportunities. And the more opportunities you have, the better you will be when it comes to picking and choosing. And so let's say we have this opportunity here. That is a four out of ten. A four out of ten.

40%.

That's not a great ratio. You know, that's not great at all. We're not even grading on a curve. You know, that's not good. And so. But if that's your only option, then you have a 4 out of 10. That's all you got.

It's either that or zero.

But if you have 4 out of 10, but then you have a 6 out of 10 and then an 8 out of 10 and 9 out of 10, those type of things. Right.

You.

It puts you in a better negotiation position, because then you could talk to the six out of 10 and say, hey, well, I have a nine out of 10 here. So if you don't get it together, I could just go with them, oh, yeah, let's increase our offer. And then they get it to a 9 out of 10. Then you can go to the first 9 out of 10 and say, hey, by the way, I have another 9 out of 10 now. So you might want to bump it up to 10 out of 10. Right. And again, just because you've positioned yourself in the industry as that. As that leader, using podcasting as the platform and other platforms as well, it provides you with more options, which gives you more negotiation leverage.

Yeah. And I think now's the time more than ever before that if we as an individual, as professionals, as student athletes, as leaders, we have to truly understand that we now do have the power. Yes, some of the other companies that they might have the dollars, but at the end of the day, them with the dollars, they still need to have an effective way to market to us, the consumer. So understanding that they're going to try to make them, even though they're these mega companies, they're going to try to make themselves as small as they possibly can to create that intimate connection and that intimate touch. So who do they need in order to, you know, in order to make that marketing strategy really work? They need us.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And one other thing to consider is this too. Let's say that you are. You recognize that your platform is growing with time, and you understand that in the future, maybe next year you're going to have a lot more exposure. So we have to pay attention to timing here too. So you, as a freshman, you might have a certain amount of negotiation, leverage and power, but you understand that most likely as a sophomore, as you get more playing time and more media exposure, those type of things, you're going to have even more leverage next year. And so we have to think about the length of a deal. So if you sign a long term contract with the name, image and likeness at a freshman level, then you're going to be locked into that freshman rate, even if your star power increases. And so this is one of those situations where short term deals, shorter term deals might actually be beneficial, depending on your situation, if you think your platform is going to grow because you might have more leverage in the future. Now, let's say somebody says, you know what, Jonathan, I'm on board. Whether they're an athlete or professional in general, they say, I'm on board. I want to start this podcast. But here's the thing, they're, they're like over 500,000 active podcasts right now. How do I, how do I stand out? And they, they're using that as an excuse not to get started. What would you say to them?

True, Kwame. So I'm gonna share this with you, Kwame, since it's just me and you. That's the number that's heavily advertised. That is 500,000 active. I did some digging. It's actually about half that that are actually active because, you know, pod fade. So about half of those podcasters, they've put the podcast out, so it appears that it's there. I'm gonna call it a phantom podcast. It appears that it's there and it appears that it's active, but it's actually about half. So I'll say that just to encourage them a little bit. The second thing I would just say is find four things that you're passionate about, four things that you might be interested in, and then just begin to take those and have it. Just set it up so like you're having a conversation with a friend, let them know what you learned about this particular subject matter. Let them know what? Okay, so let me take a step back. Okay, so first things first, just let them know what you're passionate about. Right? So sharing your passions. Sharing your passions, seeing who your tribe is, because eventually the people who have the same passions as you, they're going to cling to you. The second thing is think about the other people who are under You. So if you're in college or even if you graduated, that's fine. There are still middle schoolers, high schoolers, young professionals, people who are either a few years ahead of you or a few years behind you, who are curious what you do on a day to day basis. What do you do when you're not playing? What do you do? So we're sharing our passions, we're sharing a little bit of our life, but then even outside of that, then we're bringing our friends on where we're just having organic conversations. And you'll be amazed, you'll be amazed, Kwame, that people are really interested just to know what goes on in their favorite athlete, their favorite entertainer, their favorite entrepreneur's head all the time. It's just amazing.

That's cool. I love that you simplified it. And really what you said at the beginning, because it's just you and me, that's really how it feels like during a podcast. That's really how it feels like. And so a lot of times I'll invite people onto the show and they.

Say, oh, it's a big audience, I don't feel comfortable.

I say, listen, these are just conversations that I would want to have with you anyway. We just happen to record it. And that's the thing. When people hear that genuine interest and that genuine passion, like they, they cling to that because there's a lot of inauthenticity out there. But if you're authentic and you genuinely care, people are, they're going to cling to that. But. But you said something really important early on and you kind of, you said it in passing. And I really want to revisit it. You said it has to stand the test of time. You have to stick to it. And you have to understand that for the first few months, six months, maybe even a year, it'll be you talking to your mom, your dad, your brother.

And the people you interview.

Right.

And you see those stats and you could be discouraged.

But you have to stick to it. Because for me, I know when I see a podcast and it only has nine episodes, I know POD fade is what, six to nine episodes? So for me, as a listener, I need to say I need you to survive a little bit longer to know that you're going to be there for.

Me when I need you down the road.

And so a lot of times people need to see that library and then they're going to latch on, too. So you have to be resilient and keep on pushing forward, too.

Yeah, certainly. And then I Think another thing that we just can't jump over is all you have to do is think about a struggle, right? Just think about a struggle. You've had struggles that you've overcame, struggles that you're currently in the midst of. And I'm going to say this. I think this is one of the most relevant themes just going around the world right now. Mental health, people sharing their mental health journey. I've seen people just share their mental health journey as a podcast, and it's just amazing because, Kwame, there are so many millions of people out there who are struggling or who are suffering in silence because they feel that they can't go talk to a therapist. They feel that they can't share this with mom, dad, or whoever it may be. So they might do one or two things. They might be the person who suffers in silence and then listens to a podcast about mental health strategies, or they could be someone who starts a podcast on mental health strategies because it's cathartic. Just being able to talk and release and just share information just to get it off of you.

That's powerful. That is powerful. Everybody listen to this. And I hope some of you are saying, hey, I need to start a podcast, but I wish I had some kind of, like, some kind of podcast mentor who could help me with my podcast. Jonathan, do you know of any podcast mentors who could help them with that journey?

Well, Kami, I'm glad you asked. I'm glad you asked. So, just as I shared a little bit earlier, the new podcast that I have is called you, Podcast Mentor with Jonathan Jones. And that's just been the focus of the show to help people start, launch, and monetize their podcast platform. And I've been inspired to do that because going back to being a student athlete and realizing that after I graduated, I didn't know what to do, didn't have any internship experience that applied to my major, which was psychology. So I'm like, what do I do? I'm not sure. Long story short, I started a podcast, and then I was so passionate about it. We'll fast forward about four years, and then I got the opportunity to work with West Virginia's football program and then share with them what podcasting can do for your brand. Right? What can this do for your brand? So just helping people take these. Take these traits and understand that you're learning how to problem solve. You're learning teamwork, you're learning work ethic, leadership, communication, being detail oriented. Kwame, that lines up with any individual. That lines up with just about any career anywhere. Don't get me started, Kwame. Don't get me started.

We'll have to tune into the podcast.

To hear more of that passion. Jonathan. Really appreciate it, my friend. This was fantastic. Thank you so much, Kwame.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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