Know your Worth (and get paid it!) With Meggie Palmer

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Maggie, thanks for joining us again.

Thanks for hosting me. It's a delight to speak with you as always, Kwame.

Yes, it is a pleasure to have you as always. So for the listeners who may have forgotten, and for our new listeners, can you remind them about who you are and what you do?

Absolutely. My name is Maggie Palmer and I'm the founder of a company called Pep Talkher. And. And we're on a mission to close the gender pay gap. So we want you to get paid more and get promoted much faster.

I love it. And has anything interesting or new happened this year for you?

I was like, has anything happened? I've had a baby, so I'm getting better at negotiating with a newborn who can't really communicate. So that's been interesting.

Congratulations. Yes. So that's really exciting. And listeners, this is incredible. Hugo must be the best behaved baby in the world because he's in the room and you can't hear him, which is incredible.

He's meant to be napping long. May it continue. Exactly.

Exactly. Well, when we have you on Maggie, we always talk about careers. We talk about salary and everything like that. And that's, that's really important. And people might say, well, why are we having Maggie back on to talk about the same thing? And the reality is things have changed. And so I want people to be able to have the most updated information possible. But before we get into those tips, there's something really cool that I want you to tell the listeners about that you have going on in your company.

Yeah. So a lot's changed. So we're going to chat about how you can negotiate successfully in the current economic climate with inflation. So we're going to get to that. But I wanted to give a shout out to anyone who's listening, who really wants to be earning more money by the end of the year or who's really looking to get promoted this year. Right. So we run twice a year a free career challenge and it's kicking off in about a week. So we would love to have you join us along with the American Negotiation Institute team as well. Peptorco.com ANI and you can join up to join the free five day training. I'm running the live training myself to help support you. So we would love to see as many of your listeners there.

This is great. And yes, listeners, live training for the price of a podcast. Okay. So make sure you check that out. We'll put a link in the description so you can get access to that. So, Maggie, appreciate it. Thank you for sharing.

Yeah. The know your worth challenge. Because it's funny, you know, like it's so interesting. I talk to professionals all day and one of the things that I hear a lot, and I know you hear this as well with the work that you do, is people forget how awesome they are and how valuable they are. And that's really what the know your worth challenge is all about, is reminding people you have value, you are contributing to your team and you want to make sure that you're compensated for that.

Absolutely. And you know, when we think about negotiation skills and getting the value that you deserve, it starts with knowing your own value. Right. We have to understand the value that we bring to the table. And we're not going to be able to be effective unless we can articulate that in a way that is convincing to other people. But first convincing to ourselves as well. So this is really important.

Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think a lot of the time we think that the employer has all the power when it comes to negotiation. But actually for great staff, as you and I know, running our own businesses, we want to retain top people. We want them to be happy, we want them to jump out of bed and be stoked to work hard for us. So the flip side of that is we actually want to compensate people well, so that they feel that they're fairly paid, so that they feel excited and they feel that they're sort of being valued where they need to in market. So don't forget that you actually do have power in these conversations as well.

Absolutely. This is great. Well, yes, listeners, check out that link in the description sign up. And again, it's a free webinar workshop that Maggie's going to host. And we're going to give you a little bit of a sample of some of the brilliance of Maggie Palmer here in this episode. And so, yes, let's talk about what's changed since last time. I think it's been about a year since you've been on the POD to talk about salary negotiation and just career advancement in general. What are the main things that we need to pay attention to?

Yeah. And I want everyone listening today to just kind of reflect, like, what's happened to you and your career over the past 12 months and what's happened to your pay packet? And has that pay been going up? Because if it hasn't, I've got some bad news. If you haven't had a raise in the last 12 months, then you've been sliding backwards. Right. Because it's no secret that inflation is bananas right now. More than 8% for those of us who are based in the United States. And that's a problem because basically that's slicing and dicing your salary and taking the value away from you. Right. So you need to be getting at least 8 or 9% increase in your salary this year just to keep up with the fact that the cost of living is rising at an incredibly fast pace right now. Right. So, you know, inflation, it sucks because when you go to the grocery store, as we've all noticed, it's getting expensive, but it's also, you know, really slicing away at the value of your salary as well. So I want to make sure that everyone is really cognizant of that and conscious of the fact that you've got to be asking for a raise every year, particularly right now because of inflation.

Yeah, definitely. And I think for the people who are employers listening, too, this is really important because you're a business owner, I'm a business owner, we have employees and we are running and gunning all the time. We're very busy all the time. And it just is a reminder again for me. It's funny being on this side of the table now. Right. It's a reminder for me that a lot of times as an employer, it's easy for me to just forget about these types of things. And so really, we have to take responsibility for our own careers if we are the employee, be to raise awareness and have these conversations. Because a lot of times management, it just might slip their minds.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing you know, I think in any career, it's very easy to blame people, isn't it? At work, it's like, oh, my boss really sucks. Oh, my colleague really sucks. HR sucks, or whatever the case may be, you know? But actually, at some point, you've got to really take ownership of your career yourself. If you're not being paid fairly, if you feel like you're undervalued right now, which I hear from thousands of women in the pep talker community every year, if that's how you feel, I want to first just commiserate with you because it really sucks. If you don't love your work, it's really tough. But at the same time, you can't expect your boss to fix everything for you. Right. Your boss might have 10 direct reports, five direct reports, 50 direct reports. They've got a lot going on. Right. They've got their own life as well. So you actually have to make sure that you're steering your career and taking control of it yourself. And that means raising how much you're paid every year. That means having that tough conversation. Right. It means negotiating for your salary. It means talking to potentially, potentially other employers about maybe changing roles if you don't feel like the money that you're being paid is in line with your experience and is in line with the market right now, especially given the inflation figures that we're seeing.

Definitely. And like you said, it kind of ties into what we were talking about before when we were talking about the challenge that you were. That's in the description of the episode. Right. Because we have to know what our worth is, but we also have to take responsibility for raising this awareness, having these types of conversations. And again, the actual strategy behind these conversations isn't usually the toughest part. It's usually overcoming that barrier. And so it might be fear, it might be a lack of self worth, issues with your personal value, but then it also might be just the fact that you say, this is not my fault, this is their fault. They're to blame. Like you said, it's easy to blame. But a lot of times, especially if we're just blaming and commiserating with our buddies, we're not changing anything. So we have to shift from fault focusing on faults to focusing on responsibility. All right? The situation isn't great. I want to be paid more. I deserve to be paid more. Great. So we need to take responsibility and then have those conversations.

Absolutely. And, you know, I think the other thing is, one of the things that we do at Pep Talker is we're very focused on closing the gender pay gap. And I want to just acknowledge that the gender pay gap does exist and that that's not our fault either. Right? So we know that there's, depending on what country our listeners are in today, it's 15 to 20% gender pay gap for women. And we know that, that that gap is significantly worse for women of color. Right. So I just want to acknowledge that. And that pay gap is not our fault. Right. So I really hope that we can get to a point and I hope that we're on this podcast in a couple of years time and it's all gone and it's no longer an issue. Although I doubt that's the case because the United nations reckons we're looking at about 100 years before we, before we close that gap. But in the mean, before we can close that gap, before we wait for, you know, big business and government to catch up with the policies that need to be put in place. In the meantime, there are things that we can do. And to your point, there are levels of personal responsibility that we can take to look to move from fault and from blame towards change and the change that you want to see in your career and the life that you want to lead. Right. I want you all to be paid more. I want you to get promoted to the level where you should be. Because when you get there, you'll be learning more and you'll be growing and you'll just be so much happier and you'll be contributing more to the business.

The team as well, 100%. And Maggie, let's talk about this too. And this might be a little bit off of the typical directionality of a podcast episode focused on salary negotiation, because I think, especially when you think about the main goal of your company, the reason why it exists, which is to get rid of the gender pay gap, that's really important. And then, so for the individuals listening to this episode, yes, negotiate, get what you deserve. And we're going to talk about specifically how to negotiate in these times. We're updating those skill sets for these types of conversations. But at the same time, now that we have awareness of what those, those pay gap is in the workplace, as you rise through the ranks of your company, you can keep an eye on that now. You can be an advocate, you can be an ally, and you can take these exact same negotiation skills that you're using to advocate for yourself and advocate on behalf of others, on behalf of the group to create the structural change within organizations that we need to See, in order to eliminate the wage gap.

Too, it's so important, the point that you make, right. Because everyone listening today has the capacity to help create that change, Right. To create a more equitable workplace, to create a world in which the gender pay gap no longer exists. Right. I was at an event recently with Julia Gillard, the former Australian Prime Minister, and she said something which I think was really interesting. She said, with every wave of change comes the inevitable backwash as well. And I think that's interesting, right? Like, we are making progress, and we know that we're sort of inching closer to a more equitable world. We're seeing more women in leadership. We're seeing more people of color moving into more senior roles in the businesses, as they absolutely should be. And yet with that, you know, there's. There's. There's a price that a lot of people pay for that progress. Right. And it means that sometimes you're going to have to walk away from companies where you don't feel like you're being paid or treated fairly or equitably or where you see behavior that doesn't align with your values. And if we say nothing and if we do nothing when this happens, it's just going to perpetuate it, Right. And it's going to continue to be unfair and unjust for others. And so I do want to sort of give a bit of. A. Bit of a call to arms, I suppose, for everyone listening, like, take on the. The. The role of stepping into a place of courage and calling things out in the workplace. When you see things that are happening, that are unfair and that are inequitable, and when you have the capacity to hire and when you're influencing payroll, you know, ask for there to be pay, transparency, there to be, you know, a level setting of what. What are people paid in different roles within the business. You know, like we have the capacity to enforce and to sort of, you know, encourage our companies and our employers to create that change quicker than maybe they would if we just sat back and just allowed the status quo to continue.

Yes, I appreciate this little aside because it wasn't little at all. It was very, very important. And I think if we can just get one person to say, you know what, there is something I can do, you know what? Maybe it's worth negotiating into that next level, because that next level of authority gives me more influence over these types of challenges, too. So this is really important. And so let's get into the actual X's and O's of this. Let's talk about the strategy. When we're thinking about the major challenges that people are going to have when it comes to these salary discussions today, what are the things that people need to watch out for? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

So here's the thing that I hear a lot when people are saying, oh, you know, I'm really nervous about negotiating, like, my salary, I don't want to be seen as high maintenance, all those kinds of things. The thing is that if you prepare for these conversations, you can actually map out in advance what's going to happen, right? Because in any salary negotiation, there's really only three options, right? They can say yes, they can say no, or they can say maybe there's really only the three options and you can actually prepare in advance. And I always say to people there's three ingredients for successful negotiation. And the most important one, even though it's not very sexy, it's not very exciting, the most important ingredient for a successful negotiation is preparation. It's preparing in advance. And if you have a salary negotiation conversation this afternoon and you prepare at lunchtime, like if you're asking for 500 bucks extra a year, okay, that's probably enough time. But if you're looking to get a $5,000 increase, an $8,000 increase, a $20,000 increase or more, which we see a lot within the pep talker community, if you're looking for a significant jump, then you'd better put in significant preparation, right? Because you've got to make sure that it's not just, oh, I want more money, it's putting the meat on the bone. Why do more money? What have you contributed? How have you added to the team culture? How have you added to the team's bottom line? How have you made the business more profitable this year? And you know, I know we've spoken about this before, but One of the reasons why we built the Pep Talker app was for this exact reason, because I can't tell you what I had for breakfast last week. And it's not just because I have a newborn at home. It's because our brains can only retain so much information, right? And so on. You probably. And let me know listeners, let Kwame and I know on social media, send us a DM or tag us and let us know. Can you remember what you did at work 3 months ago or 6 months ago or 9 months ago? Can you remember the exact project that you did that was a huge success? Because if you can't, you actually need to be tracking those successes more regularly, right? And that's what the Pep Talker app helps you do, is it helps you remember in the moment, in the week the successes that you've had. So we actually say that you should be reflecting at least once a week on what you've contributed. Did you organize an internship program? Did you add an extra sale to the bottom line of the business? Did you organize the holiday party? Whatever it is, write it down now, because chances are you're like me and you won't be able to remember in 12 months time when you're having your review. So if you reflect once a week, even if you miss a couple of weeks, if you reflect once a week, ostensibly, you could be walking into your next review conversation with 40 to 50 things that you've done that you're really proud. And then it's very easy to say to your boss, hey, listen, I've done ABC and xyz and I've contributed in this percentage or in this revenue line or whatever. These are the reasons why I'd really love to discuss my compensation moving forward because you've got the reasons to sort of back up your case and your argument for that increase in salary.

Oh, this is so good. And I know, Maggie, you're like, I know, I do this all the time. That's what it helps. I help thousands of women around the world. I know it's good, but this is great. And everybody, this is. These are the kind of friends you need to have. The friends who just casually drop that they have an app, you know, in the middle of a conversation like it's nothing. But yes, Maggie has an app and it's brilliant. And actually, Maggie, since we've been talking, I actually started to compile my own lists of wins because I think it's beneficial. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So it's really beneficial for a couple of reasons, like you Said it's beneficial because you can say, oh, why am I awesome? Let me tell them this is the reason why I deserve race, right?

Yes, very clearly.

And so it clearly helps with the external negotiation, but I think the thing that people often overlook is that it helps with the internal negotiation as well. Because when I'm down, when I'm feeling a little bit sad or insecure or whatever, because that happens to everybody, I. Sometimes you forget how awesome you are. Yeah. And so anytime anybody says something nice to me, I put it in a note document that says compliments and brag box. And I will just read through that until I feel better. And so this is something that you use to convince yourself as well as the other party of why you deserve what you are asking for.

And I love that you do that. And thank you for sharing that. Because, you know, it is. And we all have bad days, right? We all have bad days in life at work, you know, maybe you have a fight with your partner or your best friend or whatever, and you're like, oh, you know, am I even any good? What am I even doing? Can I even do this job? The client said no. Or, you know, my boss had to reprimand me. Oh, my gosh. And you spiral. Right. Like we spiral as humans. And so what we know is, though, the way that the brain works, it's quite cheeky. Right? And so there's these neurons that fire in our brain. And so if we are in a regular cycle of spiraling, thinking that we're no good or really taking constructive criticism to heart, we can spiral in a negative way. Right. And that really erodes our self confidence. Right. And how we're perceived in a confident sense by others. And that's one of the things that we talk about in the know your worth challenge as well. What we actually want to do is strengthen the neural pathways when you're not spiraling. And we want to strengthen those pathways to your point, Kwame. When you feel good about yourself, when you're receiving a compliment, when you've excelled at work, when you've received compliments and praise from your boss and clients and colleagues, those are the parts of the brain that we want to strengthen. You know, and I kind of. I always harp on about this, but it's kind of like if I wanted massive biceps, I'd have to go to the gym and, you know, flex those muscles every day. And nothing's going to happen the first week. I'm going to be a bit sore. But nothing's going to happen the first month. I might be a bit toned, you know, and then maybe after a year, maybe then I have biceps a bit more like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Right. But it takes time. You've got to strengthen that muscle. And it's the same thing with our mindset around how confident we feel in and of ourselves and how confident we feel about our ability to contribute positively to the team and to our job. Because I'm sure everyone listening has got someone at work that they know who's very confident and who holds themselves with a lot of swagger. Right. And who really backs themselves. And, like, the reality is that when you are confident and when you believe in yourself and when you know you're adding value, the way that you are perceived in a negotiation goes up, up. And it's a lot harder to say no to someone who's got the data from the app, who's got the confidence, and who's really, you know, constructively engaging in a conversation about how you can find a mutual agreement on salary going forward versus negotiating with someone who's like, oh, yeah, please, can I have a raise? You know, like, even the tone of my voice, then it's not very, you know, endearing. So all of these things, when you put them together, they really do contribute to the success or failure of a negotiation.

I love it. This is so powerful, and that is why I love having you on the show all the time. So I appreciate it, Meg. And before you go, please remind the listeners, remind the listeners about you, your company in general, and again, about the. About the awesome opportunity you have coming up.

Yeah, well, I am just so. I love this podcast. I'm a bit of a nerd and I'm obsessed. I'm an obsessive listener. So shout out to anyone else listening who's in the same boat. Please say hi to Kwame and I on LinkedIn. We are on the social medias as well. I'm at Pep Talkher. My name is Maggie Palmer. Please find me on LinkedIn and say hi as well. But yeah, Pep Talk her is my company. You can check out the app on the Apple app stores and the Android app stores. Pep Talk her H E R and this is super exciting. And this is for all of the, the, the podcast listeners. Today we've got a free 5 day know your worth challenge, which I'm personally live coaching you in how to know your worth so that you walk into your negotiations this year with confidence and with the skills and the scripts that you need in the playbooks to get a successful outcome. I want you 10k raise by the end of the year, and I'm going to show you how to do that during the five days. It's totally free, no strings attached, etc. So you can check it out. Pep talk.com forward/a ni yeah. So I'm excited to see you. And then we've had a lot of AI listeners and members of the community come through the program, and they've gotten things like, you know, 15% pay raises, 20% pay raises, 17 grand extra. We had. We've actually had three. Would you believe it, three, $100,000 plus, plus pay increases, which is pretty wild. But we're very proud of that. But, you know, typically people see at least a 5k raise and then anything up from there kind of, you know, spans that. Spans that. That spectrum. So I'm excited to help support your really, you know, crush the career for the rest of the year.

Love it. Maggie, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the network Negotiate Anything Team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.