Leadership: Avoiding the Advice Trap with Michael Bungay Stanier [Author of The Coaching Habit]

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Third, check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the episode. As always, I have the same challenge for you. If Michael says something brilliant, which I know he absolutely will, I want you to take note of it. And if you leave this episode with a new tool that you can use, just give us a five star review so other people know that the tips and tricks that you hear in this episode and this podcast are valuable. So with that, I will jump into the interview and welcome you, Michael, to the podcast. Thanks for joining us today.

My pleasure. And I like how you do a little bit of negotiation before you start the negotiation podcast. That's genius. It's like it's a teaching moment plus, a moment that allows everybody to win from listening to the conversation here with us. So that's very nice.

Thank you. I appreciate it. I was talking to some of my podcasting buddies and I said, hey, how do I get a ton of reviews like you guys? And they said, do you ever ask for reviews? Nope.

Okay, so let's change it up.

Yeah. The oldest trick in the book, ask for what you want.

Exactly. Well, thank you for joining us. We're excited to have you. For the listeners out there, the few of them who don't know about you and your work, can you tell them a bit about you and what you do?

Sure. So my name is Michael Bungay Stanier. I'm probably best known for a book I wrote about four years ago called the Coaching Habit. The Coaching Habit has sold about 3/4 of a million copies of the book. So that's amazing and thrilling, not least because it was a self published Book. So it's unusual for a book to sell that many copies. So I'm pretty excited by that. And I started a company called Box of Crayons and Box of Crayons is a learning and development company that helps organizations shift their culture from advice driven to curiosity led. So we train with all sorts of big companies like Microsoft and Salesforce and USAA and other kind of fancy companies like that. That's the very short version of my life.

Well, based on the buzz that we got on LinkedIn from folks chiming in with questions for you, I think most.

People think your life is pretty interesting. Well, great.

So listeners, just a heads up, usually we stick to three topics and we try to keep it under 30 minutes, but for the sake of this one.

We'Re breaking all the rules.

That's right.

I don't think we're holding nothing back. This is going to be a seven hour podcast. Settle down everybody.

Joe Rogan style, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So we're going to just have an.

Open discussion about the book and then we're going to get some of the listener questions that chimed in on, for the folks who chimed in on LinkedIn. So I guess easiest way to start is tell us about the new book.

Well, look, before I do that, let me ask you, how much do you know about the old book, the Coaching Habit?

I love the book. I took probably about 15 to 20 pages of notes. I read it about three. Yeah, I read it in 2016 and I review the notes every year.

Ah, man. Well, I'm, I'm super flattered by that. So thank you. Yeah, tell me, tell me what sticks with you from that first book, the Coaching Habit. What do you remember? What, what do you like? What do you use?

I like what is happening right now because essentially what you, it's like you said with your description of the company, it's curiosity led. And so you ask great questions. Great leaders ask great questions. And I loved how that was the fundamental takeaway of the book. And I mean, this is just a great example of it right now because.

Usually me being nosy and lazy at the same time. So for all of the people who haven't read the Coaching Habit, which is, you know, even though it sold a ton, there's a bazillion people who haven't read it. So my goal in writing the Coaching Habit was to in some ways unweird coaching because part of what I do is try and champion coaching, particularly within organizations as a fundamental form of leadership, a fundamental leadership behavior. Then coaching just comes with so much baggage. Baggage about how long it takes, baggage about what it means to be able to coach. Do you have to be an HR people person or can you be normal? Coaching is just a bit weird for lots of people. Or they go, it's not even weird. But it's just not for me because I'm just trying to get my job done. I'm like, no, no, no. Coaching is a way to help you have more impact in the world and to help the people that you lead or you work with to help them grow and flourish and basically be better people and have better lives and make more of a difference. So with the coaching habit, I just try to strip down and demystify what it means to be coach. Like, and to your point, it's like, it's all about, can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice, giving just a little bit more slowly? Because most people are not that great at asking questions or staying curious. So in the coaching habit book, and this is what you took the notes on, I'm like, here are seven great questions. They're not the only questions in the world. But if you have just these seven good questions in your back pocket, you'll find yourself a much more effective leader. And the opening chapter was, here's how you build habits so that you can change your behavior and be more curious. So, like I say, that's gone down really well. People love it. And as much as there are a whole bunch of people who write to me and go, it's amazing, I started asking the questions, and it's so I'm a better parent, I'm a better human being, I'm a better manager, all of that. There are lots of people who go, michael, your book is okay. I like it. You're a funny guy. And it's not too long, and it feels true and it feels interesting. And I am finding it really hard to shift my behavior to actually be more coach. Like. I'm like, yeah, it's true. For some of us, that shift into a deepening of our curiosity just comes naturally. Or we practiced it long enough that we're good at it. For lots of people are like, I get this in theory, but in practice, even though I want to be curious, it's hard. How do I do that? So the advice trap is really me taking on the challenge of going, all right, for all of us who find it difficult to shift our behavior and be more curious, what needs to happen here? And it's a deeper dive into what change is and the difference between easy change and hard change. And it's a deeper dive into some of these coaching skills. So we take some of the questions that we shared in the first book and kind of expand on some of them and give some additional coaching resources there as well. The ultimate goal, and this will be my wrap up, my ultimate goal with this new book, the advice trap is to help people tame their advice monster. Because we all have this advice monster. As soon as somebody starts talking, our advice monster shows up and goes, oh, oh, I'm going to help you out here. I'm going to add value to this conversation. And of course this is perfect in this context because in a commitment to negotiation, there's such a strong tug to hold us in the place of certainty and advice and expertise because that feels like the safest place to come from in a negotiation. Conversation and curiosity almost always will enhance and better a negotiation, I would guess.

Absolutely. Yeah, you're spot on. And as I was reading the book, I think that was one of the things that was most interesting to me, just how similar coaching as a leader for the people on your team is to negotiating effectively. And what we're finding just in conversation in general, curiosity is the key.

Right. Because actually when you think about the conversations that go well, whether that's a sales conversation or a negotiation or coaching or management conversation, they're all basically the same. They've just got different labels because the context is slightly different, but they're all basically the same. And neuroscience, which doesn't care about the context, it just cares about the human to human interaction, just tells us curiosity and leading with questions sets you up to have more success most of the time.

Absolutely. So I love the concept of the advice monster because in the coaching scenario in leadership, it's advice. In negotiation, it often manifests itself in the form of I'm right, you're wrong, let me tell you how wrong you are and how right I am. And so in your opinion, I guess it would be the first question is where does it come from? Let's just start there.

Where does the hunger for certainty and advice giving. Yeah, it's profound question. There's a fast, easy answer to that, which is years of practice. Because we've spent years in the context in which we've grown up being rewarded for being right, being rewarded for holding our ground, being rewarded for trying to put the other person down and put ourselves up. We go through school and the teacher goes, here's a question and we stick up our hands and go, look, me, me, pick Me, I have the answer. And then you get to high school and you get to university, and you get to your early career. It's like, do you. Do you have the knowledge to pass the test? So one part is just acknowledging that society has done a whole big job around going, let me see if I can remove curiosity so we can create certainty. There's a deeper piece around that as well, which is more around the way our brain is wired. Because our primitive brain, our lizard brain, that amygdala in the back of the head there, that old part of our brain that is responsible for our survival and that has done such a good job at going, look, I see the world black and white. I scan the world five times a second just to say, is it safe here or is it dangerous? That part of our brain which makes decisions half a second before our rational brain catches up with it, that part of our brain goes like, I don't really love uncertainty. I don't love handing over control of the conversation to somebody else. I don't really love not knowing the answers. I don't really love not being the person who can save the world. So part of what we're battling here is our brain chemistry, which is we are wired to seek safety and certainty. And we also know that that's often in response to threats, starting with saber toothed tigers and moving on. Now, in this world, in terms of what it takes to tap into the power of the prefrontal cortex, our rational brain, where the, you know, where we get to be brilliant, that is much better fueled by curiosity.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's really interesting because when it comes to leading and negotiating, persuading in whatever context, really, what we have to do is develop unnatural responses to these everyday situations.

That's why the coaching habit is called habit. The coaching habit. And the first chapter is about habit building, which is like, you can't just want this and kind of go, no, no, I get it. I'll just try and be curious. It just doesn't work like that. You've got to mindfully actively build new habits. Because habits are really, in many ways the building blocks of behavior change. So you've got to go, no, I'm creating an artificial way of behaving so that it then becomes natural in the sense that it just becomes my default response.

Absolutely. So when we are making this transition where we're not being controlled by the habit monster inside of us, but we are instead being mindful about taming it as much as we can, what would you say is the first step? In that journey.

Yeah, I think probably it's not that dramatic a first step, but part of the first step is just awareness. You know, it's like until you realize how often your advice monster jumps in and sabotages your conversations, it's really hard to do much about it. You know, if you go back to Charles Duhigg's work on habit building, and that's being built on BY People like B.J. fogg, who's got a new book out, and James Clear, whose Atomic Habits book has been a huge success for him, there's like three parts to a habit. There's the trigger, there's the behavior, and then there's the reward. The trigger is the context. It's the thing that sets us off. Then there's the behavior. That's our habit, that's our response. And then there's a little dash of dopamine that goes in our brain. That makes your brain go, that was good. You should do that again next time. And what makes accessible for all of us who are interested in habit building is to say, look, there's no point in focusing on the behavior, because if you don't understand and know the trigger, the behavior's already happened. That's why if you've ever relapsed on bad habits, and of course every single person who's listening here has done that, you Suddenly go, it's 10 o' clock at night and I'm eating a tub of Haagen Dazs ice cream in the kitchen. Wait, how did I get here? Because I was so determined not to eat the ice cream after. Not to eat ice cream, and yet I just somehow ended up with a tub of ice cream in my hand. What's going on? It's like, because you don't know what your triggers are, so you don't even realize what set you off on a way of behaving in a certain way. So it's like, come all the way back to the start and be aware of what the trigger is. Be aware of what sets you off. Start becoming aware of your advice monster. And once you start seeing that, you start understanding what it might take to tame that advice monster.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions. But they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description.

To learn more and we will be right back after this.

This is great. And listeners, two things. First of all, I think you have your, your five star point right there. And the second thing is this would be a great challenge for you to really start making this change. Just take the time in your next conversation to become aware of the times when you want to jump in and share something. And that's going to be the first step in this journey to taming that Advice Monster.

Well, you know what, let me make an offer to the folks listening in@the advicetrap.com There is actually a quick questionnaire that you can take that will show you which of the three types of Advice Monsters is strongest for you. Is it Tell it? Is it Save it? Or is it Control it? There's one Advice Monster, but it has three different Personas and they all show up in the mix. But there will be one of those that is strongest for you. And if you're curious about that, you can figure out which one it is through the questionnaire. It's pretty short. It's like 20 minutes or something, or 20 questions. So five minutes maybe. And the report has a bunch of tactics associated with it. So that's available for people if they're interested.

Fantastic. Well, two things to that point. Number one, these are listeners of the Negotiate Anything podcast, so of course they're curious. And the second thing is, let's just transition into talking about those three personalities of the Advice Monster and how they appear.

Yeah, so I first mentioned the Advice Monster in the Coaching Habit book and I've had so much great feedback on it. People love it, just love the idea. They're like, oh yeah, I'm like, I have an advice monster. I know my advice monster. It shows up more often than I would like or care to admit. And I'm like, yeah, so let's double click on that. Let's go deeper into that. So three different Personas of the Advice Monster. Tell it, save it and control it. So tell it is the noisiest of the three and people will know this one because it's part of our lives. Talent has convinced you that the only way you add value is to have the answer. If you don't have the answer, if you don't have all the answers. In fact, if you don't have all the answers to all the things, you fail. So that strong anxiety that you might feel where it's like somebody's talking, somebody's come to me for help, and I don't have the solution. That's your advice monster rattling the cage. So that's the first one. Tell it. So save it. As a second one save, it's a little more subtle Save it's put its arm around you, and it's convinced you that the way you add value is to save everybody, to rescue everybody. Your job is to not allow anybody to stumble, to struggle, to fail, because if they do, then you fail. So that weight you can feel around, oh, my God, they're finding it hard. That's my problem. That is. Save it. And then the third of the advice monster Personas is Control it. This is kind of the sneakiest of the three. And control it has convinced you that the only way you win is, is to maintain control. Don't give up control to anybody on anything. You've got to make sure that you've got your fingers in the pie from the start through to the finish. If you give up control, if you give up power to anybody, then you fail. So what I'm sure is, as the people listening to this, there's some people going, oh, yeah, it's one, it's two, it's three for me. But I bet you for a lot of people, they're like, oh, all of the above. I recognize all of those as these kind of deeper triggers, deeper drivers for why it's hard to be curious because you've got those three advice monsters going. Hey, you better have all the answers. Hey, you better save all the people. Hey, you better control all the situations. Because if you don't, you fail. But here's the thing that connects the three Personas, and this is powerful for people to hear. When your advice monster is in control, you are saying that you are better than the other person. You're better than the other person. You're saying that they're not good enough, they're not smart enough, they're not fast enough, brave enough, moral enough, experienced enough, insightful enough, wise enough. You're basically saying that they're not good enough. But part of what's painful about this is it's not just the other person who gets diminished in this moment. When your advice monster is on the loose, you get diminished, too. Because when your advice monster is in control, you lose connection to your humanity. You lose connection to your vulnerability and your empathy and your compassion. You know, your answers start becoming your armor. And in that moment, everybody loses in this equation.

This is great. I really love this point. So by the time this episode goes live, the book will be available too. So listeners check the link in the description to make sure you go and take advantage of the resources and of course, buy the book.

Thank you.

Yeah. So with the time remaining, let's go to the LinkedIn questions. I was really excited about this and we'll get to as many as we can given the time. So the first question comes from, I believe, a mutual friend, Dave Stahoviak.

Oh, I love Dave. This is another great podcast. If you don't know his podcast, Coaching for Leaders, it is fabulous. He has amazing guests, really smart, lovely, big hearted man. So you should be subscribed to two podcasts, this one and Dave's the Kobias one.

So if you're not there, I agree completely.

Well, perfect. So Dave says, I'd be curious to hear Michael's thoughts on questions to ask in negotiation situations. Probably those are not coaching's questions, but just curious on what works for him with regard to information gathering when he's in situations where he's negotiating on behalf of his company.

Yeah. So there is one question, in fact, it is a coaching question, because coaching questions are just questions. In the Coaching Habit book, I talk about it as the foundation question. And it is the number four of the seven that are listed in the Coaching Habit book. And the question is, what do you want? What do you want? And actually, for me, anyway, when I'm in negotiation, what I really want to be asking is myself, which is what do I want? Because until I know what I want, it's really hard to act. It's really hard to engage in a negotiation. And so often if I'm at all fuzzy about that, I'm procrastinating about the conversation because I'm like, I don't know really where I'm trying to get this conversation to. So how do I navigate if I don't have a North Star? That's a question that works equally well in something like feedback, which honestly is like negotiation, but around behavior change rather than a contract or money or whatever it might be. People procrastinate around feedback. And the myth is because it's a hard conversation, because it's touchy feely, because they might cry, all of that sort of stuff, but actually a bigger reason or a significant reason why people procrastinate is because they haven't Got clear on what they want. They haven't got clear on the request they want to make. Once you know what you want, you are finding your feet around what it takes for you to take action. So that's the question that I come back to, is like, I got to know what I want, and I've got to know what they want, because then we understand the gap, and then I have a foundation for action because I know what I want as part of this as an outcome.

It's a great response. And really, Dave, you got a bonus question too, because it's really two questions in one, because you first beforehand, so you're thinking thoroughly, you clarify with yourself what it is that you want, and then you clarify what they want. That's great.

Exactly.

Well, perfect.

Well, actually, before you go on, let me ask you, what's the variation of that question that you use most often that you think is most powerful in negotiations?

Yeah, I utilize something called the funnel technique, where you start incredibly broad, broadly at the beginning of the conversation. So it differs depending on the situation. Usually it's, what's your goal? What's the best case scenario for you? I like to ask it maybe in the form of fill in the blank. This would be a success for you if. And then have them elaborate. But I mean, really, we're right in line there. We're starting with their goals and then asking subsequent questions to dig deeper and really extract what it is they need. And then that helps us in terms of negotiation because then we can customize our response based on their needs.

Yeah. So part of where I go with that is that understanding that and this is a key learning for people in coaching or being more coach, like, and in using these questions is it's okay to recycle questions because that question, what do you want? Actually, as you move people through down the funnel to get increasingly specific around it, you can just keep asking that question. And it's like it has the mesh on. It becomes finer as you move down the funnel in terms of what you're ending up collecting and what you're actually ending up seeing there. So when you start the conversation, you go, so what's the goal here for you? What do you want out of this broader conversation? And they're like, well, I want this, this, and this. And they're like, okay, let's take the first one of those. What specifically do you want there? And what else do you want? And what else do you want? So what do you really want there? And they're like, oh, okay, I really Want this? That's brilliant. If you got that, what do you really want here? And they're like. And you're like, I'm just asking you the same question over and over again. But what I'm doing is I'm staying curious longer. And you're not being seduced into thinking that their answer is a final answer. It's just part of the journey of getting to the real moment of clarity.

And I think one of the things that holds people back when it comes to utilizing this very simple but very powerful technique is, is the fact that they don't want to feel as though they're interrogating, or they also fear the possibility that the other person doesn't think that they're smart. Well, they just ask the same question nine times.

So luckily for me, I gave up years ago trying to think that people thought I was smart. So that ship has sailed. I'm fine with that. But let me ask you this. How do you teach or encourage people to engage in negotiation in a way that doesn't feel like interrogation? How do you frame that for people?

I talk about the importance of reciprocal vulnerability. So a lot of times we focus on simply extracting information, and that can turn into an interrogation, or for my lawyer friends out there, cross examination. And that doesn't feel good. And so eventually they might get to a point where they say, listen, I'm the only person sharing. I'm going to clam up now. I don't feel safe. And so once you recognize they're starting to slow down. That's an opportunity for you to inject a little bit of vulnerability into the conversation, share a little bit about yourself, and then they'll reciprocate.

You know, when I'm teaching facilitation skills, which I do in other contexts, part of what I always say to people is, you are the strongest signal in the room, and people respond to the strongest signal. So the degree to which you offer up humanity and vulnerability and empathy is the degree to which the rest of the room can step up to the same standard. So if I'm wanting people to have that vulnerability in the work and the training that they do, which is what I want, I've got to make that safe for them. And the only way I do that is by going there first. So I love that there's a real connection there, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And now I'm thinking about my presentations, too. That's a really great point. But let me get back to this.

I'll think about it later, but that's a great example of a great question.

Because now you're pushing me to be a better presenter. Okay, so Desmond, he is an attorney at Panda Express. So he asks what is one question you wish you would have asked yourself early in your career?

It's a great question. It's tricky because, you know, in retrospect, everything seems clear and obvious and at the time. But I would say that there have been times where I've been a little too comfortable, a little too long, and I've kind of gone, all right, I'm in previous jobs going through the motions a little bit, or at least just not being pushed in the way that I would like to be pushing and growing now. On the one hand, part of how I framed my career early on was to go, look, I'm being an apprentice. Like, I'm learning stuff because my first job was in the world of innovation and creativity. So not only am I learning, as everybody does in their first job, what does it mean to actually have a job? This bizarre notion of I need to work 10 hours a day, five days a week, what is that so different from university life? But also, what is marketing? What is a brand? What is innovation? What is facilitation? All of that I was just soaking up early on in a sponge. And then I moved to the world of change management and similarly going, how do organizations work? And what are the real influences and levers of change? But as much as there was great learning for me in both of those two key roles I did before I started Box of Crayons, I also got to a point where I'm like, okay, I've stopped learning so much. So I think the question I would ask myself is, are you restless enough? Are you restless enough? Because it's that fine line. It's like, is now the time to stir things up? Is now the time to break something? Is now the time to leave? And I would honestly, it's a bit like trying to buy low and sell high. You can never get the timing quite right. But I probably would have liked to have had the question asked of me a little more forcefully a little earlier, because I may have bought lower and sold higher.

That's brilliant. I love that. Love that question. The next question is from. And I apologize if I mispronounced this name. As a Kwame, I am very sensitive to that Riddy, and her question is, what are the stepping stones to transition from a managerial mindset to a leadership mindset? And she's also curious about examples of everyday actions that can be implemented to Move towards leadership direction.

Well, a lot of that depends on how you define leadership and how you define manager. And you can argue on the one hand that that's a false separation, you know, because what's a manager? What's a leader? How are they different? Well, there's ways that you can occasionally make being a manager pejorative. It's like, oh, you just nag people and get work done and be an irritant. And leadership is like, oh, you're visionary and you're setting the direction and you're changing the world. So for me, this partly is to collapse those two and go, look, your job is to do two things. Your job is to go, am I having the most impact I could with the sphere of control and influence that I have? That might be, you lead a team, or it might be that you're an individual contributor. But it's like, am I having the most impact? Am I making the right choices about where to spend my time and put my effort? Am I being strategic? Am I not being busy for the sake of being busy? But am I going, right, here's the language I would use is here's the great work project, the work that has more impact and the work that has more meaning. Am I putting time to that? So that's the first part of the mix. And then the second part of the mix is, am I fully committed to the people with whom I work? And that might be people you lead in a kind of more formal relationship. You're a team leader of some sort. It might be people who you're kind of on a. Let's call it a fellowship with. You're traveling on the same path, even though you don't have a formal leadership role, but it's like, are you helping them grow? Are you helping them learn? And in the same way that you need to be focused on them going, are we doing the work that has impact? Are you engaged? You're going to be asking yourself, am I showing up fully, full heart, full commitment, fully engaged around all of that as well. So I guess I'm collapsing. Manager and leader. I'm like, labels can be a bit deceptive. And you can fall into the trap of, oh, I'm not a leader until I am VP of something or other, or I have a team of at least X number of people, or I get this amount of money for my job. Like, nah. Whether you work for a big company, a small company, or you work for yourself, whether you have a big team or no team, or you're an individual contributor it's like, you got a job in this world. Show up and do work that has more impact. Show up and make the people around you better.

I love it. Great response. Alan has a great question. He's a negotiation expert, and so his question is, what are some of your favorite coaching questions? So we already covered, what is your goal? Let's say, what do you want?

So the question that I point people to as the best coaching question in the world is, and what else? And what else? And this is super helpful in negotiation because the key insight is their first answer is never their only answer, and it's often not their best answer. So that willingness to go, no, let me stay curious here. Okay, what do you want? What else do you want? What's your goal? And what else is your goal? And what else is your goal? Okay, so what's your goal? No, really, what's your goal? You're just going to get somewhere more interesting if you stay curious longer. And what else is. If you're going to pick one question to start with and run with and start making your own, that might be it.

Brilliant. I love it.

That's a great topic.

Great. And then the last one is from my friend Mike. He has a great blog on how to save face. I would strongly recommend it. Strongly recommend it. His podcast is coming soon, everybody, so I'll keep on peer pressuring him until it happens.

Come on, come on, Mike. Step up. Get the podcast out. It's like, ship it.

I'll let him know.

That's right.

Go. Go and read Seth Godin on shipping it. Because here's the thing. Your first podcast episodes will be mediocre, and that is perfect because that's the standard you're going for. You're going for barely adequate when you start something because you don't know what the hell you're doing. You know, you can listen to podcasts like this one and others where you're like, they're really good. You can make up all sorts of reasons why you can't get that first episode out till it's as good as that. You're like, no, it's easy. It costs you 100 bucks to buy a decent microphone, and everything else is absolutely free. There's a bajillion lessons on how to set up a podcast on the Internet. Seth Godin has a podcast, how to do a podcast course as part of Akamai. Anyway, it's part of his thing. So look up the Seth Godin podcaster course and just get out there and do it. Come on. Mike.

Well, there you go, Mike.

I don't know what your question is, but there's your answer, which is, you should do a podcast and you should do it now.

I love this. This is great. Okay, so Mike asked, do you have.

Any additional recommended opening type questions other than what's on your mind today? So I guess we're focusing here on small talk.

Yeah, I do. So my recommended. I mean, what's on your mind Is a great opening question, but my other recommended opening question would be, why haven't you launched your podcast?

Love it.

But if that doesn't work, because that may work with a few people, but actually some people just be confusing. There's lots of variations on that. It's like. And it depends on the context, but it's like, where should we focus today? Where should we start? Where's the most useful place for us to begin if we're going to jump in? Where's the most interesting place for us to go right away? It's a directive to say you get to choose. This is the kind of behind the question. I want you to choose where we start, but I want you to go somewhere interesting and important that matters, not just do kind of miscellaneous small talk.

That's great. That's great. Because with their response, they're giving a very, very clear signal on where you should focus your attention.

Right. So in the context of negotiation, and you tell me whether this is right or not, it's kind of masterful because you're both giving them control and you're also controlling the conversation.

Exactly.

And that is what a powerful negotiation looks like to me, where the. The other party feels empowered and engaged and not diminished and not disempowered, but actually, you're holding the bigger picture about where you want to take this conversation.

You're spot on. Spot on. Well, this has been fantastic. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show.

My pleasure. It's been lovely to have you. This has been fun.

Yes. So, yeah, if you ever want to come back on and down the road when the book is as you. I know you're really intentional about the way you market. I'd love to help you out.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Here's the thing. I'm not going to return until Mike puts out his first podcast episode. So until Mike steps up, you're dead to me. He's dead to me. Everybody's dead to me here.

Oh, man. Okay, I will.

That's.

You got to get into that now.

Absolutely. Oh, this is great.

This is great. Well, Fantastic. Cool. All right, my friend. Well, you have fun. Yeah, likewise. Likewise. We will be in touch. I'll see you.

Thanks, man. See ya.

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