Leading with Kindness: Insights from Jamelia Hand

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Jamelia, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

It is my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Oh, goodness. So that is a really erratic question for most examples. Ex practicing counselors. I'm still a certified counselor, but I haven't practiced in about 50 years. But in short, Kwame, my professional and personal journey is no secret. It's all out there. It's written within the US News and World Reports, it's published on LinkedIn, it's on my website, it's pretty much everywhere because it's been and it will always be a deeply personal journey. It really intertwines my professional and private experiences. And it comes down to one thing, really, and it's the loss of my father due to an opioid overdose, which set me on a mission. Actually, it continued my mission. So from starting as a substance use disorders counselor in the late, late 90s, I found myself at the intersection of empathy and strategy, which ultimately led me to establish consultancy which is called Vantage Clinical Consulting, llc. And our focus is on providing strategic direction and training to healthcare organizations on Opioid dependence topics. And what we aim to do is to curb the pain, curb the grief surrounding opioid overdoses. And we do this work by really enhancing treatment services. We spearhead. We spearhead advocacy. We lead with compassion from my counseling days, of course. And we also do this with action and drive, which is consultancy, as you and I may understand it. So that is pretty much it. And I'm excited about an upcoming book release on September 30, which is appropriately titled Leadership at the Intersection of Empathy and Lessons from a Counselor Turned CEO, which is not the topic that I chose. I put it out on LinkedIn, asked my network what they wanted to hear about, and that's what they came up with. And so in that book, I'll share what I've learned on my transformative journey.

That is amazing. First of all, thank you for the work that you do in the field.

Thank you.

It's inspiring to see how you turn a life tragedy into something so empowering that can change the lives of so many people. So I think that we need to pause and appreciate that. And I appreciate the fact that you're spreading the word, too, with the work that you're doing, coming on the show, and then also writing the book as well. And I'm excited to help you spread the love. And this is where you start.

Thank you so much.

What I like about your approach, you focus on empathy, you also focus on leadership, but you also talk about strategy and impact and what I've seen in a lot of folks who are in the helping professions. It's almost like we've created a false dichotomy where you are either overly empathetic and you are a bleeding heart, or you are strategic, callous, and cold. Have you noticed that?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, gosh, the stories I could tell. Here's the T. Kwame. This is what I know to be the fact with counselors and therapists of all kind, they have an innate skill set. They can see past the person that is in front of them to what the person can become. And this is something that is part innate and part skill. They can be educated. They can be trained. It's part them, and it's part education. They are great listeners. They are highly skilled negotiators. Honestly, the hardest negotiation that I was confronted with was motivating someone to envision their life without heroin. But that's another story. They are usually culturally competent. They know how to set boundaries. They know how to mediate conflict between family and spouses. They're really equipped with the leadership starter kit, honestly. And what can get in their way of leadership is if they are disinterested in the data and disinterested in the business of helping people, which is a business.

Yeah, this is critical because you're right, we need the data. And if you don't have the business savvy, you don't have a business. Right. And those two things are necessary. So for you, when you have this empathetic mindset and you also have the strategic mindset, too, how can you blend the two while still being true to yourself?

Most well, for. Well, not first and foremost, you know, because there are a list of guiding principles that every leader should subscribe to. You know, they have the ones that belong to whatever organization they're working for, and plus, they have their own internal compass or North Star. And I believe that we all can agree that kindness is really a valuable trait in leadership. However, as you previously mentioned, there can certainly be pitfalls when kindness is misapplied or overemphasized without the balance of equally important leadership qualities. One of the things that I've noticed in my 22 years of working within the healthcare profession is the avoidance of difficult conversations. I am an advocate of positive confrontation. Even when I was a manager of counselors, I would always say, don't fight with your clients. Fight with me. If you need to come in my office and curse and shut the door and throw things, you know, do it with me, but don't take it into your sessions. And every overly kind leader, not every, some of them, they misstep. I guess what I would call crucial but challenging conversations. And this leads to a number of things. It leads to unresolved conflicts. It leads to unaddressed performance issues. It leads to operations that are not aligned with the overall vision of the organization. So it's really important that we have the conversation, the conversations that we should have so that we can operate with the quality that we expect.

I love it. I mean, it's on brand for us because our motto is, we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So, yes, we love that you recognize and you promote the fact that we need to lean in. And you've seen a lot of different leaders in your day. When you've seen a person who was a leader but was struggling because they were too nice, overly kind, and avoiding those conversations, what was it in them that needed to shift in order them. In order for them to become assertive while still being kind?

Well, that. That's. That has Been a conundrum, you know, for many leaders who identify as. As being kind of. So my personal opinion is rooted in inconsistent boundaries. So for me, there has to be an equal appreciation for what we do and the business that we're in. I'll take you back to a time 20 years ago when I first became a counselor, actually, 23 years ago, when I first became a counselor. And I just wanted to help people. I just wanted to help people, you know, and that's what most counselors say. I just want to help people. So I was working with, with an organ organization who was funded by grants, and I wanted to help people. And my office actually wasn't quite an office. It was a cubicle that was located next to an elevator, and I had a office chair that was, you know, I had to teeter on and hold a notebook that I probably purchased with my own money, but no such thing as privacy in that situation. It was. It was pretty. It was pretty wild. But my desire to help people really superseded the conditions that I was working in until they didn't have my paycheck. And when they didn't have my paycheck and I had a home to take care of and a child, I realized that I had to do more to understand the business of how we operated. And what I learned over time is that we needed to make decisions that were aligned with the business so that we could continue to keep the doors open. And we have to care equally as much about the decisions that keep the doors open as we do about clients. And when we don't care about the business, the quality of the services that we deliver also suffer. So it really is reducing those pitfalls where kindness is either misapplied or overemphasized without balancing it with the other really, really important leadership qualities. And I can't stress that enough.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. I love this story for a number of reasons. First, we talk about boundaries Setting clear boundaries. I think first we have to have that internal negotiation to figure out what our boundaries are, and then we can successfully articulate that boundary to somebody else. But then you also recognize that it's not necessarily a boundary in terms of saying no to somebody else. It's a boundary in terms of saying yes to something else. Right. So you're saying yes to a good business, yes to a business that makes money, not necessarily no to helping people. And by saying yes to that business, you're saying yes to greater levels of care. Maybe not in this particular moment with this particular person who wants to infringe on this particular boundary, but eventually you will be able to perform at a higher level because you set that boundary.

Absolutely. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, that's powerful. That is powerful. And the other thing that we talked about, too, is candor. And I like that you. You often pair kindness with candor, because sometimes that those two things can seem to be at odds. Can you tell us about that?

Absolutely. So obviously, you know, kindness and candor should walk hand in hand, holding hands, but we can't have that conversation again without introducing or reintroducing something that we started out talking about, which was positive confrontation. You know, we live in a world where influence is often mistaken for true change. And I can't tell you the number of leaders that I've come across who believe that if they were kind and if they were empathetic, that somehow they understood the nuanced difference. They understood how it would show up in the outcomes. They understood the business of what they're doing and whether or not they were able to achieve the outcomes. And the outcomes are not just internal quality outcomes. These are outcomes that are unofficially or officially required by funders. They are required for reimbursement purposes. But it's really important to understand the nuance differences. Kindness and candor combined with positive confrontation, the ability to understand what we're doing wrong and when, figure out where we have fallen down in our process, discuss that and repair that is the only way that we can have a genuine impact in the work that we do. And while influences, influence, excuse me, shapes the overall perception. It helps us to guide our choices, but it doesn't ensure that we walk through the doors and leave the mark that we hope to. So when we think about legacy building, whether it's from an organizational perspective or. Or a personal perspective, we want to leave a mark. And being kind is not how we leave marks, is by being candid.

It's so true. It is. It is so true. And when you think about the candor now sometimes say, or people say, you know what? I'm just going to tell it like it is. And then they just go out and, like, abuse people. Right. So let's. Can we dispel some of the myths about candor that people often mess up?

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you asked that question, because it is different. It really is different. So how I would define positive confrontation, you probably has your, you know, you have your own idea about what candor, which I aligned very closely to positive confrontation. It is the. It's. It's skillful, it's constructive. It. It addresses disagreements or even differences in understanding. It's not about conflict at all, even though you would think that it is. It's about approaching potentially sensitive topics with the respect that they deserve. And it's about people coming together. It's not about separating. It's about people understanding. It's about the intention of achieving. It's about mutual growth. You know, it's not just being kind. Is being kind with the strategy?

Yes, yes, yes. I love that because we have to be targeted, too, with our approach. And I, I think that, you know, it's funny. Let me just go on a little personal rant. I remember I was watching this reality TV show. Whitney and I, we like to turn off our brains sometimes and watch this nonsense. Somebody was describing somebody as strategic and using the term negatively. And I started to pay more attention about, like, the way that people use strategy, the term strategy or strategic. And it's interesting that in some cases it's seen as a bad thing. Like it's seen as something that is inauthentic. And as a result, people say, no, I just, I don't. I'm not. I don't utilize strategies in these conversations. I just tell it like it is and things like that. And. And they feel like it is a sacrifice of their authenticity. So I want to dig deeper into this because people are getting it. Okay, great. I can't just be nice all the time. Okay, great. I need to let people know and how I feel and what I think and what I see in a constructive type of way. But that layer of strategy, again, I just want to go deeper on that potential, that point there, strategy.

And it really depends on how people define strategy. And the overall goal for strategy is to. To get ahead, right? The goal is to make sure that we're not where we were and we're taking an approach that is rooted in some sort of research, some form of data. It's not simply limited to how we feel or our gut instinct. And those things are important. They're equally important if we want to have influence and if we want to make an impact in whatever our businesses consist of. And I would say that strategy, especially for the field that I came from, the helping professions, is not necessarily something that has been embraced by the counselor or the therapist or the helping profession. Again, you know, they just want to help people. They just want to help people. And that's a beautiful thing. But if there is not a process of you helping people, if you don't have structure, if you don't have workflows, if you don't have supporting, you know, procedures or policies, if you don't understand how those procedures are being reimbursed, if you don't know where your money is coming from, not only do you not cheat yourself, but you cheat the people that you serve. Additionally, your organization or you as an individual, may not have the influence that you would like to have to grow your business. And you have to have influence. I mean, we can't get away from it. Influence shapes perceptions, and it guides choices. And everyone has a choice. They can choose you as an individual or choose you as a business, or they could go elsewhere. And when you have influence, you can impact. You can impact that decision. You can create tangible and lasting change. But influence doesn't work alone. It opens the door, but the strategy and the impact influences that. We not only walk through the door, but we leave an indelible mark.

Love this. I love this. And I want to go to. I want to focus in on a couple of things that you said. You have process, we have to have structure, you have to have workflows, these type of things. Let me speak from my own experience, and I think everybody else has their own personal blockers, and we have to figure out what that blocker is to overcome that. But now, as a. As a leader, as I look back at past performance, I realize that one of the blockers was just laziness because I was using the excuse of being busy. But I just wasn't being focused and wasn't willing to lock in and do the things that I wanted to do. And when you think about strategy, strategy takes time, strategy takes attention, it takes energy and focus. And those things are at a premium right now. So it's easier for me to just sit back and say, you know what? I'm just an authentic guy. I'm just going to be nice, and then, you know, let the chips fall where they may. That might be how I'm interpreting it. So I don't just say, yeah, I'm being lazy. But really, when it comes to sometimes not putting that strategic overlay over the things that we do, the conversations that we have and the way that we navigate the world, sometimes it's the. Because we're just not willing to put in the work.

Wow, profound. Absolutely. And honestly, when you think, when you think about. And first and foremost, I don't think it was laziness. I think that prior to your arrival and what you shared, it was probably just a lack of self awareness at that time, which at some point you did obtain and you realized that you had to approach things differently. So I commend you on that. But with that self awareness, you have to ensure that not only are you being candid with yourself, but you're being candid with the people that you lead. It's with that candor that you facilitate the transparency and the feedback that you need. And you can ensure that with that team members feel valued. Team members appreciate kindness and they also appreciate candor. When they don't know what's going on, when they question what is happening in leadership, when they don't understand the vision, when they are unclear. They can't develop those things that we previously mentioned. They can't develop the workflows, they can't set the goals. They don't understand the vision. I can't remember where I heard it, but there was someone, and I hate not to give credit, I really appreciate being able to give credit when it's due, but I was listening to a podcast and someone mentioned it was something about, and forgive me, it was something about a hallway test where you would stop people randomly and ask, well, do you understand the goals for this organization? Or even do you understand the vision of this organization? And you can ask anyone from the security guard or the front desk receptionist to the second in command within that organization and if their understanding and their explanation of what the vision is is not aligned, then you have a serious problem. You have a really serious problem. So being candid and making sure that people that. So that they can then pass it on to others around the organization and to the broader community. We have to make sure that we are linking these things and they're links on a chain. And if any one of those links are broken, we don't get as far as we would like to.

And that is a very kind way to say the consequence too.

I'm a counselor, my counselor at heart. So yes, I know how to. I know how to polish up a Turd. As someone.

I was. As you were saying it, I was like, say it. Say it. Yes. No, this is great. This is great. And with the time we have left, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about your. Your gossip strategy. I loved this. Tell the listeners about that.

So really, the gossip strategy is. Is basically based on the points, the. I guess the talking points that you iterated up at the top of this conversation. And it's really the commitment to active listening. So, you know, as you know, active listening is a tool that I carried from my counseling days. But, you know, I've worked for. I've worked for many organizations. I've, you know, I worked in sales for 13 years for global pharmaceutical organizations. You know, I've been a health care consultant, you know, within my own business. I've been a deputy director for the state where I oversaw opioid and other treatment in Illinois. But I'll tell you that nothing helped me to understand the importance of good gossip than my current role, which is in reentry. And I'm not speaking as an agent of the organization that I currently work for, but active listening is the absolute best tool that you can carry with you. It's a bridge between empathy and strategic direction. It isn't just about hearing words. It's about understanding emotions. It's about understanding the motivations and even the needs of whomever it is you're speaking to, whether it's a customer or a colleague. And with that information, it allows a deeper connection. It allows teams, members, you know, stakeholders, community members to really identify their unspoken needs. And once you understand what those needs are, you can listen, and you can listen for the things that they're concerned about, and you can listen to your teammates, and you can listen to the people that you lead. And for me, good gossip is about letting people know that not only are they being heard, but it's about connecting to other people within the organization. So not only do I have the opportunity to demonstrate that by sharing the good gossip, because what I do is when I hear the good gossip, I make note of it. And when I have an opportunity, I'll send an email and I'll connect the two people that the gossip is about. I'll tell the person who is being gossiped about what was said about the gossiper, and next thing you know, they're talking on a regular basis, you know, combining notes. They're figuring out how to make the organization better. So it really is a privilege for me that has, I mean, the return on investment and sharing good Gossip has really been rewarding for, for me. And if only they knew how rewarding it was for me, because my role is to help develop and build and grow and stabilize a culture. And this is just one of the tools in the toolbox. So that's what Goss.

I love it. So essentially what you're doing is you're listening for positivity. You're seeing that, and then it's. It's really interesting because when you think about it from the form of semantically good gossip, right, when we always assume gossip is bad, it's behind your back, people are saying bad things behind your back. But we don't appreciate the fact that people all the time are saying good things behind our backs too. And you are the connector between those people. So somebody's complimenting somebody else, you send that and say, hey, by the way, this person was complimenting you. Just a heads up, right?

Absolutely. I love every minute of it.

That's so great. I tell you. Good vibes. Good vibes. That is great. Well, Jamelia, I really appreciate this. This was fantastic. And if the listeners like to this, I know you're going to. They're going to love your book. So before you go, can you give your. Your book a shout out?

Absolutely. Leadership Lessons at the Intersection of Empathy and Impact. Lessons from a counselor turned CEO will be available to all of us on September 30th. And I'd love to also leave your listeners with, I guess, I mean, of course, if they want to discuss the topics that we've covered today and any others you know, please find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active there. Also on my website, Advantage Clinical Consulting Consulting.com. but I'd also like to suggest that leaders of all kind, at minimum take a few Intro to Mental Health or Addiction courses. Please do yourself a favor. Again, the hardest thing, the heart, the toughest negotiation that I've ever had was convincing someone that their life without heroin would be better. And it's real. So recovery by far is really the biggest change that a person can make. And it was the biggest sale that I had to make as a salesperson, and it was the biggest change that I had to make as a leader. And as leaders, we learn from strategies that are deployed and we utilize them to become better leaders. And finally, I want to remind us that true leadership isn't about strategy or decision making. It's about connecting people on a profound level. And whether you do that through good gossip or other means, it doesn't matter. Just make sure that you have a toolbox to drive meaningful change. And I think we'd be remiss if we didn't remember that at the heart, at the core, at the nucleus of every impactful decision, lies a seed of empathy. If I can't leave our listeners with nothing else, I want to leave them with that. So, with that said, thank you so, so very much for having me. Kwame, I really enjoyed speaking with you, and I hope that my book, once is published, can serve as a beacon for all leaders and aspiring leaders out there.

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