Lessons from the High-Pressure World of Lawyers and Oral Arguments with David Edgar

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. David, thanks for joining us today.

Hey, Kwame, nice to be with you finally. It's great to be here.

Yes, likewise. We've been following each other on LinkedIn forever, so this is long overdue.

Yeah, that's true. We have.

So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about it yourself and what you do.

Well, I'm David Edgar. I'm a mergers and acquisitions partner at a big global law firm, KNL Gates. And I've been there my entire career. So unlike a lot of people that, you know, kind of come and go from big law firms or in house back to law firms, I've, I've stayed at the same firm since I left law school and, and I do a lot of deals. Public company, private company, cross border mergers and acquisitions and advising companies on, on their strategic transactions.

I love it. And you know, it's, it's funny you say that, David. I can't even remember the last person I've talked to who's been at the same law firm their whole career. That's becoming more and more rare. So kudos on you to you for following.

Yeah, it's it's, it's exceedingly rare these days. But, you know, at my firm we have quite a few, so I, and I run into them, you know, from time to time at other firms. So I think it's, you know, when you find something that you like to do and people that you like to work with, you know, time just goes and it's been a great 20 some years.

Love it. This is great, man. And I've been excited for this for a long time because this is going to be a, like a Deal Makers episode. We're actually talking about these, these massive deals that you're working on and just to set the stage for listeners, because not everybody out there is a lawyer who might be familiar with mergers and acquisitions. Just tell us what that is in general and the role that you play.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's a. What I love about mergers and acquisitions is, it's, it's so varied. You can be doing, you know, deals that have global connections one day, or you may be working on a small technology company that's decided to sell instead of do an ipo. So in general, mergers and acquisitions are involved anytime a company wants to buy or sell significant assets. And usually on larger deals, firms like mine and lawyers like me will, will be involved to kind of help guide that transaction through the inevitable ups and downs that you're going to find whenever you do a big transaction that has a lot of complications.

Love it. Yeah, this is, it's really important work within the legal space, just in general. But I think one of the things that's really interesting is that when we're talking about M and A, it's the nexus between law and business, finance, all of these different things. So like you said, it's, you know, it, it's such a varied experience because you have to know so much about so many different things. But it all comes together, hopefully in a completed transaction. But it takes a lot of work to get there.

Yeah, it really does. Well, and you're right, one thing I love about it is you really can blend all those different substantive areas into a deal. So, you know, my background in college was more economics and some finance. And I thought at one point I'd maybe be an investment banker, maybe do that in New York, do other things and sort of combine my interest in, in the finance and business side that way. But I ran across a book in our library that sort of talked about mergers and acquisitions and the legal side, and it fascinated me. And, and after I read that, I thought this might be A way to kind of integrate these two things. And. And then I found you can also apply psychology and human behavior and cognitive science and all these different really cool areas that make you a better lawyer generally, but definitely a better M and a lawyer.

And this really speaks to that term, the art of negotiation, because we're seeing it. It's not just the science. It's not just these really cold calculations that we're making. You have to have a really holistic understanding of business, law, finance, but also psychology and put it all together in a way that makes sense in order to be effective. And I think when it comes to your approach, one of the things that I found really interesting is the fact that you bring in storytelling into your approach. Can you tell the listeners about that?

Yeah, well, I think this is one of the areas that LinkedIn, I think, helped to give me a better perspective about. I always did that in deals. But I think, you know, when you're writing for something like LinkedIn or platforms like that, you have to be able to distill things to their essence and tell a compelling story as part of that. And I do think that when you're doing deals, you know, as you mentioned, Kwame, you can easily get crushed down with detail and a lot of the substantive complexity of a deal. But at the end of the day, it's people and it's the stories that they're living out in their own lives and. And a vision of a story that they want for the future. And the more you can key into that, sort of have a feeling of resonance with that, I think it helps to then shape not only how you document a deal, the more technical side, but also the art that you described. You know, how best should I position a particular approach so that it resonates with that story that, that the parties are trying to tell? So, yeah, I think coming up with a story and then being able to sort of vividly describe it and live with that, it goes a long way when you're thinking about negotiating deals.

I agree. And I especially like that point where you were talking about just getting lost in the details, because the these transactions that you're in, they can be months or years long. Like, this is going to take a lot of time running through a lot of numbers. You have to consider a lot of different laws and regulations, things like that. It's really easy to get lost. But you're right. At the end of the day, we're all people coming together. It's a human engagement. And now when all of this is easier Said than done, David, because there's a lot that's drawing us to those details. And so how do you, as a negotiator, stay disciplined to make sure that we don't lose sight of the narrative?

Well, what I tell people, and I try to tell myself, because you're right, you can easily forget this when you're doing deals yourself. And I find that too, the time pressure, the stress, the anxiety of a deal, you can feel it. And the more significant it is. And that doesn't necessarily mean dollar amount, it can just mean the significant to the parties, to your clients. All of those things do weigh on you. But I try to think in my own mind, alternate, you know, kind of go back and forth between a very high level view, which, which encompasses that story, the themes that you're trying to work toward, and then back into the details. But you have to do that almost fluidly and almost seamlessly as you're transitioning through a deal. And what I found with M and A lawyers is sometimes you will run into people that are really great technicians, hardworking, you know, very smart, very capable at doing the technical side of a deal, but they're never able to kind of bridge over into thinking through these storytelling elements, the art of a deal. And that limits them. There are other people who have that ability and they're great at it, but they just don't have the ability to live in the details that you have to. So finding someone that can bounce effortlessly between those two different ways of viewing the world, I think is hard, is hard to find. But when you do find someone like that and they're interested in M and A, then, you know, obviously we, we want to grab them. And those are people that make. Make great M and A lawyers.

This is really fascinating to me because what I'm recognizing after interviewing so many people on this is that there's this element of negotiation called fluidity that you, you, you touched on. That really can't be taught per se. You have to kind of go through it because like you said, you. We can't escape the fact that as lawyers we have to be technically savvy. We need to know the law, we need to be detail oriented. We have to know the facts and the data that we cannot avoid that, but we recognize we can get too far and lost in those details. But then on the other side, there are people who just rely on charisma and personality and storytelling alone, but there's no substance to it. And so we have to be able to blend it. So for people who are trying to, to manage that tension and do that dance that leads to balance and fluidity. How is it that you are able to balance these two elements? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

I, I think one of the best things is to try to stay as well rounded as you can just in your life. I know you've, you've written a lot about that and I, I've, I've written some about it. The importance of being authentic, having credibility, to me, that's always been the most important part of a negotiation. To be credible, to kind of, you know, what's the old saying, Say what you mean, mean what you say and be consistent with that. And so I think if you try to be someone that you're not, it becomes very difficult to be an effective negotiator. But I like to just read different things, try to learn new areas like psychology or cognitive science. Some of the developments in AI are really interesting in terms of how those can help or hinder a negotiator doing a deal. So the more you are well rounded and well read, including fiction as an example, poetry, other sorts of things that give you a different sort of viewpoint on the human experience, I think help, because all of that then comes into how do you negotiate a deal? How do you deal with the people that you're working with and having those conversations and discussions that, you know, sometimes can be challenging. And then I think that works well with your technical skills that hopefully you've developed, you know, in law school and that you're continuing to work on as you're practicing.

I cannot overstate how important this is. And I love that you went there with talking about authenticity and being well rounded and exposing yourself to new things. Because the reality is I think a lot of professionals need, need to feel as though they have permission to do that. And I admit that because I'm one of them too, because I was, I like to read. I read and take Notes. You've probably seen me just scribbling throughout this whole interview, an avid note taker. And people would ask me, hey, when was the last time you read a nonfiction book? And I said, when I was a child. I'm a man now. I've got work to do. Why would I waste time with that? But then I started to do a little bit more of that. And let's just be honest when I say a little bit. I read one last year, so. Growing slowly, David. But it really helped to expand my perspective on different things. And what I'm recognizing is that the more experiences I accumulate and the more different people I get to meet and things like that, the more my mind can nimbly jump from subject to subject in a coherent type of way. And I think this is really important because, again, we might think about these things as something that's trivial. But the thing is, it is incredible as an exercise for our brain when it comes to being fluid and flowing authentically during difficult conversations and negotiations.

Yeah. I mean, it's so true that when you think about creativity, even coming up with those solutions that other people can't see, a lot of times that is just connecting dots. Sometimes people can see the dots, sometimes people can't see them at all. But the key is to see them and then be able to connect them in new ways that perhaps in the heat of a difficult negotiation, it's challenging to see. But the more that you've kind of given your mind the ability to learn new things, I think it becomes a little easier to draw those connections when you need them. And, you know, you've, you've, you've seen that for sure, in the work that you do. There are people that are consistently better at that.

Right.

And so I've always tried, when I've run into someone like that, to try to, you know, suck off as much like a giant black hole or something like that and just have as much of that, you know, that expertise and experience come off on me and learn different ways of doing it. There's, you know, every negotiator is different, takes a different approach, has a different style, and, and I think it's very important to learn from as many of those as you can and then adapt those to your personal style and approach. That works best for you.

I love it. Yeah. Super important. And again, too, we have to recognize we will have our own authentic style, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from other people. And sometimes the best teachers in negotiation are the people on the other Side, we can learn a lot from them, too. So I really like that point. And one of the things that I like about your approach too. First of all, alliteration. We have perspective, persistence, and persuasion in negotiations. So can you tell us about the three Ps?

Yeah, I mean, I love the three Ps. I don't think they're necessarily unique to me, but I do think that it's helpful to have some frameworks. And I know you do that as well. And it's a great tool for people because again, when you're learning these skills, but also actually applying them in the heat of battle, it's helpful to have some of those things kind of at the ready. So you're thinking through, you know, how might I approach this issue? But yeah, the three Ps, I think, are very important in M and A. But probably, I mean, you can tell me, in any negotiation, you have to have perspective. And that's a little bit of what we talked about before, that high level, the strategic view, keeping the end in mind, having a vision of where you want to go and what sort of, you know, traps and challenges you might experience along the way. That's. That's how I view perspective. But in an M and A deal, there's so many different complexities, timing, considerations, pressures, that you have to be diligent. So if all you have is perspective, but you don't have persistence, sort of that doggedness, that willingness to continue to go back, make sure that you're covering all of the critical points that you need to make, having the patience to do that, which sometimes can be challenging, those are very important. And if you flip it, I mean, you think about it the other way. There are lawyers that have tons of persistence but very little perspective. And that's equally bad. That may be worse because then you have the lawyer that is just pursuing a point that nobody cares about, that doesn't matter, but they're diligent and persistent about it, that can be highly aggravating and in some cases may send a deal off track. So you have to have both of those. And then, of course, you have to have some degree of persuasiveness. You have to be a good communicator. You have to be able to translate the perspective in a persistent way, but telling a story, telling some way of communicating it in a way that other people are excited about and can support. And so I view that as the persuasive element of the three Ps and.

Of the three Ps, which do you think is Most challenging for M and.

A lawyers, I think probably perspective, if I had a guess, I think that distilling complexity into something that's understandable and relatable is a challenge. And as you said, our training is not geared toward that. It's mostly geared to issue spotting and identifying problems, not as much to figuring out which problems really matter. And do they matter in this particular deal? They might have mattered in another deal I was working on, but do they really make a difference here in the transaction I'm working on now? So keeping that, having a sense of perspective, and at least in the M and A world, it requires you to have a very close connection with your client, with the drivers of the deal. I often write about drivers like what, what are the economic, the social, the personal factors that are really motivating this deal? And those help to keep you focused on what really matters. And then hopefully your technical training will allow you to figure out good solutions for those that work and that comply with the law and that get you where you need to go. Many lawyers are good at that, but not as many are good at figuring out, you know, which am I going in the right direction, am I headed in the right place? And that's, I think, where perspective makes a big difference.

It's so important, so important. And I think, and I'd love to get your opinion on this too, because I feel like a lot of times we rush to the technical side because that's where we're most comfortable. We just can't be dropped in and start issue spotting, start taking action, and start. Start researching whatever it happens to be. And I think it takes a lot of maturity and patience to be willing to slow down, talk to your client, figure out what they want, and then get past the BS and then figure out what they really want, going a little bit deeper, creating a strategy that meets not just your legal interest, but also the business side, because that's often overlooked by lawyers sometimes if you're not well connected with your client or you don't have a business background. But, yeah, I think those are some of the things that holds people back from really diving into the perspective. But I want, I want to get your thoughts on that too.

Yeah, it's definitely true. But again, I think that comes back a little bit to, you know, the way the profession is going in terms of, especially at larger law firms, to being much more narrow, you know, much more siloed. And there's good reasons for that. You know, it's, you know, as, you know, it's a very Complicated world that we live in and, and the legal challenges that, you know, companies face, people face are, are more and more difficult. And there are a lot of technical issues in an M and a deal that you have to make sure that are addressed in the right way. So lawyers naturally can sort of hide in that world and, and many can do that very successfully. It depends on what your own goals and, you know, aspirations are. If you want to be, you know, at the table making decisions, really contributing to how a deal proceeds, you have to find a way to transcend that technical approach or you won't be sitting at the table because you're just not going to be invited because you'll make it, you know, doesn't allow for the kind of free flowing discussion that you need when you're really thinking about doing, doing an M and A deal. So I think having a, a good grounding in a lot of different areas really does help you to understand people, to communicate better with people. And I see my role in some ways as being a bit of an intermediary between the very technical specialist people who are great at what they do and you know, the, the, the business teams that really understand their business and where they want to go in the future. How do you bridge those in a way that allows a deal to get done, you know, complying with the law without undue risk, but still gets done and gets done quickly, efficiently, so that the business can start finishing their story that they want to tell.

And this brings it all back to value. When we think about just from a professional perspective as lawyers, we want to be valuable to our clients, not just do exactly what they tell us to do, become scriveners and things like that. No, we were valuable in different ways. And what you've presented with us is another way to be valuable. Being that intermediary between the business interests and then the technical side, that's not probably something that they explicitly asked you to do and said, david, I want you to be the intermediary. Absolutely, but you became that and then that increases the value that you bring to the deal.

Yeah, I mean, you know, and even if you go kwame, outside of the law, you know, in an M and A deal you have accounting experts and you have banking type experts and finance people. All of them are bringing to bear, you know, their particular expertise and focus and all of those are important and all of those have to come together. So in a way, you know, doing M and A is much like being a quarterback or a, you know, conductor of a symphony, an orchestra and people sometimes have used that as a way to describe it. And I think those are fairly accurate. You know, you have to make sure that all those great players, all the great musicians who are terrific in their individual. Right. Somehow are able to come together and do a performance that's better than their individual contributions. And that is something I think where the M and A lawyer can make or break it. And some who are more docile, who, you know, who. Who don't have the interest or the capacity to do that, often will falter because then deals have a way of sort of meandering in different directions and it's very hard to get them moving toward a common objective. So I like to take a more hands on approach if I can. And obviously every deal is different. You have to read that as well. But I think that's a more effective approach when you're, when you're doing M and A deals.

I love it. This is really helpful. And also when you think about that perspective of coming at this deal as the intermediary, but then also incorporating that with what you said before about the value of perspective and having a broader idea of what is on the playing field, all of that coming together, that gives you the opportunity to be a lot more creative as a deal maker. And we all know that creativity is one of the key elements to being successful as a negotiator. So in your world of M and A, what does creativity look like?

Yeah, I think it's probably one of the most significant things that you need to try to develop. And whenever I've thought about that myself or you talk to people, it's almost like using the word strategic. It's hard to know what that means. Right. It's. It's when you drill down that it becomes much more challenging, but also a lot more fascinating. Like you really start to explore it. So for me, I actually try to pull from people that you think of as being highly creative and see what lessons I can draw from those. So for example, I wrote recently about Taylor Swift and some of the creative lessons that, you know, that she tries to use in her own songwriting and in other ways. And there's lots that you can learn from her as, as an example, one of them is, you know, she had a great speech recently where she won innovator award or something like that. So it wasn't for her singing, it was for innovation and for being creative in the music industry. And she said, you know, one of the best things that I think to get across to people is I've had Thousands of terrible, insufferable ideas that never worked. It's the ones that work where people are giving me an award, like this Innovator award. And I think that's a great lesson, that one of the ways of being creative is it's not a magic trick or something that only certain people have, like great scientists or artists. We all have that capacity. But I think lawyers in particular kind of shelter it because they don't want to say the wrong thing or come up with an idea that's dumb in their mind. But it's. It's the ability to generate lots of different ideas, being open with the possibilities that allow you to create more and more of those. And from those ideas, you'll find a lot of bad ones like Taylor, a lot of ones that don't work, but you'll find those one or two that just might be perfect to solving whatever problem that you're facing. So generate more ideas, be open to failure, and I think you'll be a lot more creative.

David, we're at about 900 episodes of negotiate Anything, and you, my friend, are the first person to cite Taylor Swift. So I appreciate that reference. This is great. But the underlying principles still stands. This is amazing because you're right. We can take so much from other disciplines, but we don't take the time to bring in these other ideas. I think a lot of times we're afraid. Maybe we just don't think about it. But there's. I know we can admit this. As lawyers, we have a profession where prestige is important, and sometimes we feel like our reputation is on the line and we have to conform and think in certain specific types of ways, and it can be kind of scary to put forth those creative ideas.

That's deadly.

Yeah, so that's deadly.

Well, that's. That's a terrible way to. To do it, but I agree with you. You know, one of the. One of the things I think that is really, really bad is this idea of precedent. You know, we. We are conditioned as lawyers to always go back into the past and try to see what someone else has done. And, of course, there's nothing wrong with that. And if you're litigating a U.S. supreme Court case or something, you better know the precedents and you better know them cold and know the ins and outs. But I think when you're doing deals or negotiations in general, those can. If those are being used as a way to encourage new thinking, encourage flexibility, give you ideas to build on, great. But if they're used to box you in and sort of trap you into what was done before without necessarily considering all the differences that, that you're facing in your current situation, then I think that's, I think that's very bad. So I like to actually try to free myself from that and, and try to do spend more time getting out of those precedent boxes and thinking more about how can I solve this problem if I didn't have any constraints or limitations. And I think that's a better approach to solving the kind of problems that we're facing now, which are very multifaceted, very complicated. They're not easily put into a precedential box where you just sort of plug in a, you know, a provision or language and, you know, and it's done. So that's something you can think about as you're facing problems that maybe you haven't seen before.

Can you give us an example of a creative solution you came up with that worked and kind of saved a deal that didn't seem like it was going to go through?

Well, I can tell you one. When I was just an associate, I mean, I've had many of those kind of examples, I guess, over the years, but one as second or third year associate, you remember the rule against perpetuity from law school? Now, for those who aren't, you know, lawyers, that's one of those archaic common law rules that, you know, we in law school, right, might spend, I don't know, a few weeks trying to master usually in property law or something like that. And it's a, it's a very ancient doctrine that, that basically says that if you try to create a bunch of conditions or contingencies on things that last too long, courts are going to strike those down. And it usually applies to wills and trusts and things like that. Well, I can remember working on a, a bank merger. Nothing to do with the rule against perpetuities. And I hadn't, you know, read it or studied it or thought about it in several years. At that point there was a set of provisions that were buried in some old, you know, corporate documents from the 20s, 30s and 40s, and they were going to potentially derail this deal. I couldn't come up with anything. No one else on the team could come up with anything. We were thinking of all these different ideas as I was just walking around and taking a shower, which actually turns out to be one of the best ways to generate creative ideas. Somehow or another, the rule against perpetuities started tinkering around. I thought, I know that applies to trust, but what if it applied to this kind of a corporate restriction that was placed years ago, decades ago. Maybe there's something there. So I did a little research that thought about it a little bit more and took a couple days to get up the courage because I thought they're going to. Partners are going to say, what are you talking about? This is a corporate deal. Well, needless to say, it actually had some applicability and it ultimately worked as one way of solving that problem. And so, hey, study the rule against perpetuity. Sometimes that may come up even when you least expect it, and save the day. So that was an example as a, as a younger associate. So taking showers, studying well, you know, thinking of different ideas, that's, that's how you become creative.

David, I'm laughing because when was the last time I even thought about rule of perpetuity? I know it was first year and then maybe for the bar exam. And that's how it is for most lawyers. But this is a great example of how just having that depth of knowledge provided you with a reservoir that you can tap into for that creativity. And a lot of times it's not just the willingness to think outside the box. It's about having a really strong back catalog of information that you can refer to as you're thinking outside the box, as reference points. I think this is a really strong example of creativity that's really good.

Well, when you, when you're negotiating, you know that you're under that, that sort of pressure and you have that. It's actually the equivalent of maybe doing an oral argument before an appellate court if you're a litigator, because that's, if you think about it, most M and A lawyers, corporate lawyers, you're behind your desk, you're at your office, you're doing things, you have your forms. Negotiation is the one time when you are on the spot and the clients are there, the other side is there. You have to react in real time. That's a much different experience for most people, many of whom who became corporate lawyers because they didn't want to go into court and stand up and make an argument or make a presentation.

And.

But that's in many ways what negotiation is. And that's why I think that preparing in advance, really thinking about where you want to go, how you want to do it, has a lot in common with chess, has a lot in common with tennis, other sports, thinking about how you're going to deal with the inevitable changes that are happening as you're going and not being too inflexible. With your approach. You know, one of the. One of the great stories from a scientist that I think is, I sometimes refer back to is Richard Feynman, who won a Nobel Prize for. For quantum mechanics. He was, you know, a genius by it. By all accounts, was very smart person, but he was struggling with a problem and trying to force himself into a solution. And what he did was he just decided, I'm going to go get some lunch. I'm going to go hang out at the cafeteria. And as he was hanging out at the cafeteria, he saw one of the undergraduate students kind of spinning. At that time, he was at Cornell, a Cornell lunch plate. They must have had fine china there. And it had the Cornell logo, you know, and he could see it spinning and watching it bobble and move and rotate. It started to connect him to some of the challenges that he had been struggling with for a couple years. And that spinning plate got him connecting to some ideas that he then tested out and won the Nobel Prize. So it was freeing the brain, thinking of new ideas, trying new things that allowed him to make those connections that he otherwise wouldn't have.

I love that story because really, when. When you're obsessed with your craft, the world becomes your library, and you. You do your work, you focus on it, and then you really have to give yourself time to. To think. Like you said in the shower, you. That's when some of the best ideas come. That's because we're. We're relaxed. We're in a more relaxed state. And so there is a. There is really something to the idea of working really hard, trying to create ideas, but then recognizing that, stepping away and doing something with intentionality that is different. What it is that you are focusing on an important part of the creative process. So this, my friend, has been a masterclass in M and A lawyer law. I really appreciate your insights here. I encourage everybody to follow David on LinkedIn. Make sure to give him some love. We're going to link to your Firm and your LinkedIn profile in the description. Before you go, just want to say thank you and we appreciate your insight here today.

Thank you very much. I appreciate being here. It's great. Thank you.

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