Making Authentic Connections in Negotiations With Kate Philpot

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Kate, thanks for joining us today.

My pleasure, my pleasure, Kwame.

Yeah. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yes. So my name is Kate Philpott. I am based in the uk. I lead globally distributed sales enablement team for a major multinational, and I've probably spent more years than I care to remember working in sales prior to moving into the enablement space.

This is great. And listeners, Kate and I know each other because we work together. I think we started last year or early this year.

Yeah, maybe. I think it was last year. Maybe in the year before.

Actually, it's been a while. But yeah, we did some work focusing on diversity, equity and inclusion, but more so specifically, like the difficult conversations. And we actually did some psychology type of stuff. That was actually, I think, one of my favorite presentations from that year. And it had nothing to do with negotiation. Well, great. So today we're going to talk about authentic connection. And this is something that we've touched on on the podcast a number of times, but it's been a really hot topic of discussion ever since the pandemic. We've been questioning what does it mean to connect? And I love blending negotiation and just human interaction and connection in, because I think we can negotiate how we connect with each other. And so, Kate, let me hand it over to you and give it to you to set the stage when we're talking about connection, what are we focusing on today?

It's. It's a really good question. I'm not sure that we, the collective, we have taken necessarily the time to define what we mean by connection. And I feel that oftentimes we're talking about something that we think that we've lost rather than taking the time to define what it should be now. And I guess, you know, for lots of us there is almost now a sort of pre and post pandemic world where, you know, in. In many ways people are going, oh yeah, but before COVID happened, I think the reality for me is that we are unlikely to go back to that world. So it's almost wasted energy to be worrying about where we were and how we go back to that thing. What would be more useful to think about? Where are we now and what does connection mean now? And thinking back to the sessions that we did the last couple of years, what does connection mean that is inclusive across that spectrum. However you define that spectrum, whether it is on ethnicity, whether it is on sexual orientation, whether it is on gender, whether it is on neurodiversity, whether it is on extroversion or introversion, there is a definition of connection that is probably different by individual.

Absolutely. And the reason I wanted to start there is that connection means different things to different people. And so the thing is, sometimes we don't take the time to define it within an organization or within a relationship. And then we don't take the time to reconcile the differences in the definition because if we were to stop and say, well, Kate, what do you mean by connection? We might find out that we are starting the conversation in a completely different place. It's. We might both be speaking the same language, but still not understanding each other and not understanding why we continue to have the disconnect. Because connection means one thing to me. Being something completely different to you. When we were chatting before the episode started, we. We were talking about the difference between how introverts might perceive the. The changing world of work versus extroverts. Can you go a bit deeper into that?

Yes. I mean, this came out of a conversation I had with a colleague a couple of days ago and we were talking about extroversion and introversion. Actually, we started talking about the neurodiversity. And I mean, that is an all encompassing title that covers a whole. A whole bunch of ground. But specifically then we honed in on extroversion and introversion in the context of connectivity. And you know, I would count myself as being on the introverted side of the scale. I can be extroverted when I need to, but I then need to withdraw to re. Energize before I go again. Whereas an extrovert you know, somebody who takes their energy from being around other people is all about that. And I think, you know, when you get into the definition of what we mean by connectivity, what, what I'm hearing a lot is we need to be more connected and, and, and implied in that is. And that means we need to be in the office more often, for example, whereas, you know, I could talk to somebody who is completely introverted or on the introverted end of the scale who says, please don't make me do that. That is not going to make me happy. That is not going to make me feel like I'm more connected. It's just going to make me really stressed. And I think that it's that kind of understanding of what we each need and that, you know, that how that then shows up is different. And there's a TED Talk I watched a few years ago. I think it was called the Quiet Introverts. Can't remember exactly the title. But I think that the challenge that I think a lot of introverts have is that the extroverts tend to be the ones who are loudest, talk the most and can influence the way that this conversation and many other conversations go. I think there's always a risk of assuming that somebody who is introverted doesn't have an opinion or is not thinking.

That's so good, Kate. It makes so much sense. I forget which book I was reading. Maybe it was Susan Cain's book on, called Quiet on Introversion. And one of the quotes was the world was essentially created by extroverts for extroverts. When we think about biases, I think a lot of times we focus on protected classes of citizens. So race, gender, those type of things, religion, whatever it happens to be, we don't take the time to think about the fact that bias is really the natural, the natural state of the brain. We have different types of biases coming to mind right now is the status quo bias. So earlier in the conversation you said, well, people will talk about how things used to be and kind of long for that. That's called the status quo bias. Right? That doesn't necessarily mean that the way things used to be was the right way. It just used to be that way. Now when we think about redefining what work looks like to me, I look at this through the lens of negotiation. Like you said, we were trying to figure out what each person wants. And the definition we use for negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody wants something. So really what we're doing here is negotiating the way we want to connect in this new world of work, figure out how we can design our workplaces and the way that we work together in a way that allows people to be authentic and comfortable and, and operate to the maximum capacity while still respecting the way that other people want to work. And in your experience, where or how do those conversations start?

I'm not sure. They always do other than, I mean, you know, if I take a recent example, engagement surveys. So organizations will do an engagement survey and there will be a bunch of questions and then there's some comments. And you know, again, those who feel a lack are likely to respond less favorably to a question around connection if they perceive that there is something now missing that they used to have when, for example, they were all in an office all of the time. And of course, the challenge now is because, I mean, a lot of organizations are working in a hybrid way. So even the world of the office, even the feel of an office, is different to the way that it used to be because not everybody is there. And so the extroverts still feel that the office is not the thing that they. They enjoyed back in the day because they haven't got the same people showing up every day and they don't have that buzz. What I mean, it's a really great point that you make though, because for the people who are more introverted, if we go back to introversion, when the office was full to the, you know, to the seams, it was a stressful place to be. It was noisy, it was hard to concentrate, it was draining of energy rather than energizing. And that's the part that I think, you know, to your point, oftentimes we don't reflect upon when we think about the world that I want. And I think just being the challenge, of course, is always it's the quiet people. However, for whatever reason, they are quieter, who then have to push themselves to articulate what they want so they are not imposed upon.

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And that, you know, to go back to negotiation is the. Is the challenge. How does an introvert become sufficiently brave to say really what they want, knowing that what they want may well run counter to the perception of a chunk of people who want something else?

Yes. So now we have the challenge. Now what is the solution? How do we, as let's say, if we identify as introverts, if we find ourselves in this situation, how do we start those conversations? How do we speak up and advocate and. Wait, Kate, before you answer that question, listen extroverts who might be changing the episode. No, you need to listen because a lot of times extroverts don't have the ability to empathize with introverts because their worlds are so different. So you need to keep on listening so you can be a better colleague, a better partner, and connect better with the introverts around you. Okay? So keep listening quietly. All right?

And as a build, as a build to that, please don't take it personally because this is not about you. And this is the conversation my colleague and I were having the other day. You know, I think oftentimes if you are extroverted, you see the more introverted as a being a bit shy, bit reserved, not so interesting, not interested. None of those things are necessarily true. The people who are more introverted need is a bit of encouragement. I mean, as you and I were talking about before, it's not that people are not thinking. It's not that they are not listening. It's not that they're not considering the world around them. It's just that it takes a bit of time for them to sometimes to summon up the courage to say it. And so if you wanted to be an ally to an introvert, as an extrovert, sometimes asking the question is all it takes. What do you think? I mean, it's the same in team, you know, in meetings, team meetings, whatever other kind of meeting. I mean, we've probably all been in places where there's the few voices that we hear a lot and a lot of other people sitting on their hands. And I remember years ago when I used to work for another organization being trained on how to have good meetings. And one of the really good practices which I still hold to is to go around the room and say, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And get people to say their piece. Now Sometimes they won't because they are super shy or super reserved. But it's your job, if you're a leader, to go and engage with those people one to one. They may not feel that they want to speak up in a group, but they probably will. One to one. And you will still get some nuggets out of that which will help you to redefine potentially your definition of what connection is, because may well be not one size fits all.

Very well said. I really love what you were talking about when you said, you as an extrovert, don't take the behavior of an introvert personally. And I remember when I was doing one of my courses for LinkedIn, it was leading motivating different personalities. And that was one of the key takeaways for people, just letting them know that the person's personality is not about you. So if you're, if you're having a conversation with an introvert, the pace at which they speak or the pauses between responding, it's not because they don't like you. This is just. They are people who are lower on the scale of agreeableness, also known as disagreeableness. The disagreeable people like them. Being disagreeable and skeptical is not about you. This is how they operate. And so understanding the psychology of personality helps you to engage more authentically without taking offense to these things because you realize it's not about you, take it personally. The other thing is it helps you to recognize when you are understanding and accepting of who you are. You have to recognize where you need to allocate more energy, restraint. I want to talk and I need to hold that back. An introvert needs to allocate more energy towards speaking up because a natural thing to do. The guests on the show, Beth Bulow, she had the podcast Introvert Entrepreneur and she said that in her mind she uses the word extrovert as a verb. She says, I am an introvert, but I know sometimes I need to extrovert for a moment in order effective.

And I would totally subscribe to that. And I would say that about myself. I can extrovert when needed. In fact, I probably extrovert a lot of the time in my professional life, which means at the end of the day, I don't want to talk to anybody. I want to decompress, I want to withdraw, I want to read a book. I want to just stare mindlessly at the TV because that's how I re. Energize. It's. And again, you know, so sometimes you. Again, you'll hear people say, oh, yeah, but we want to, you know, we. Going out to socialize, the introverts never come. It might be because they are maxed out because they've done a day of being extroverted, and that saps the energy. And, you know, if going out as a group is in a massive group and there are, let's say, tens of people, for an introvert, that's the one of the least comfortable places that you can be. It's not about taking it personally as an extrovert. It's just recognizing that for those who lean towards extroversion, there are certain situations which are hugely stressful.

Absolutely. And let's focus now on the introverts who are listening. And extroverts still stay.

Okay.

So for the introverts who are listening, who say, all right, Kate, I'm following you. It's sounding like I need to advocate for myself. I need to stand up and speak up and advocate for what I need in my workplace and in general. So your experience, what have you done to be able to stand up and speak up when necessary?

I practiced. When I know it sounds, you know, maybe a bit silly, but I practiced. So if there was something important that I wanted to say, I would write it down, I would read it a few times, I would practice, and then in whatever space I knew was going to be uncomfortable, I would make myself do it. But I would feel more comfortable doing it because I had practiced. And what's that saying, you know, you do something 100 times, it becomes a habit. It is a learnable skill to push yourself to be a bit more extroverted. And that, you know, the thing about this is, you know, we're not talking about extremes. We're talking about stepping towards each other. So to your point, if the extroverts are going to just sit on their hands on occasion and even, I think, more importantly, invite the introverts into the conversation. If they notice that there are people who are not speaking, that's their step towards the middle. But the introverts would benefit also from stepping out of that place of comfort, which is I. I'm thinking a lot, but I'm not saying it into. I'm going to push myself to do this, and I'm going to push myself to do it in a situation which I know to be uncomfortable, let's say, a meeting with multiple people, and they're somewhere in the middle. You get goodness.

Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that is necessary for everything that you said to happen is the right mindset. So it Reminds me of the book by Carol Dweck, mindset. How could I forget the name? I just said mindset like three times. The book called Mindset. And so she distinguishes between two different mindsets, growth mindset and the fixed mindset. So the fixed mindset believes more in talents. So either I have it or I don't. I guess I'm not good at this. I'm doomed to be bad at this forever. But what you're demonstrating is not just the skill set but also the mindset that facilitates the acquisition of the skillset. Practice makes perfect. I can do this. This isn't my natural state of engagement. But in this moment, what I'm going to do is I'm going to write it out, I'm going to practice it a few times. And so that practicing helps you to perform in that instance. But you're developing the habit of preparing for these conversations, which then creates the habit of engaging more meaningfully in these conversations. And so not able to get to that point if you don't have that growth mindset to begin with.

So you have to have the intention. And if you're sitting, you're sitting in a meeting thinking, for example, they're all talking about something. And I don't agree. The other thing, I remember being told this years ago as a really junior employee, maybe it's helpful to consider it to be your responsibility to share your thoughts, even if they are in disagreement, in order to help a better decision to be made. And I found that really helpful because it took a bit of the responsibility, it took a bit of the personal discomfort away because I was able to say, okay, so this is in the service of a good decision. So I will make myself speak up because of that. So again, maybe that is also growth mindset. It's certainly a shift of perspective, and I think that's sometimes helpful.

Absolutely. It makes so much sense. And now let's say when we're actually in the conversation, as an introvert, so you practice the thing that you want to say now the person has responded and they want you to engage a little bit more. What are some of the barriers that you still need to overcome in the midst of the conversation?

I think it's easy, or maybe it's tempting to assume that because somebody is extroverted, they by definition know what they're talking about or that they are by definition. Right. Because they speak with such conviction. And so it is, you know, there is a danger that you put yourself on the back foot because you go, oh, yeah, but they've said it was. They've said it so convincingly, they must be right. And so there is a risk of you doubting your own mind, which means that the conversation then is out of balance. And I think just reminding yourself that your opinion, assuming that it's backed up by some kind of evidence and some kind of facts and data, your opinion has as much validity as anybody else's. And that going back to that and maybe looking at it as having a responsibility to speak up just helps you to, in the moment to say, actually, that's an interesting point that you have made. Can I share my thoughts? Or I would like to share my thoughts and just, you know, because I find certainly my personal experience. Extroverts are most extroverted people. It's not that they don't listen. It's that they're so keen to speak that sometimes they forget to listen. Well, they forget to ask questions that get information back, no matter whether it's an extrovert or an introvert. Makes people go, huh, interesting point. You are helping to move the conversation forward. And that's a response. As I say, I think looking at that as a responsibility is maybe a helpful lens to look through.

Absolutely. Because when you think about things as a responsibility, you recognize that sometimes there are responsibilities that you have that you don't want to do, but you engage in is the right thing to do. Going back to one of the things that you said about the extroverts and how they sound confident, this is a really important point too, because let's go back to the way that the differences between the way that introverts process things and the way that extroverts process things. So introverts process deeply and slowly. Extroverts process out loud and very quickly. And so a lot of times it sounds like they're making very direct and committed points, but really what they're doing is they're thinking out loud. It's almost at. Sometimes it feels like your presence is almost incidental to the cognitive process that is occurring in front of you.

Yep. And I've recently been in a project with a big span of personalities, and I was reflecting on this in preparation for our conversation, because I know at a certain point in my career, I would have let the extroverted thinking out loud process keep me quiet. And actually, what I found myself doing at a certain point in the process was saying, I understand that this works for you, because I think recall the request or the statement was, let's brainstorm. And I had to say, I get that this works for you, but I am not yet in a position to brainstorm because I am not at that point, I need to go away and have a think. This is the first meeting of a project. I need to go away and think and then I can come back and offer an input. But I will not be able to be useful if we get into brainstorming right now. And as I say, I walked away thinking, I would never have said that a few years ago.

Yes, this is a win. And I think it shows that for somebody who's listening, who's extroverted, they might think that, oh, well, of course you would say that. Why wouldn't you? Another trait of extroverted people is that they're very assertive. That just comes very naturally to them. But for you, it takes a lot of effort to do it. But the more you do it, the more familiar it becomes. It might become incrementally easier, but it never comes easy. But you recognize, like, hey, I can do this. And it gives you the confidence to step up when it's time to step up.

And I think the, I mean, the other thing that I would say about that is I did instantly think, have I upset them so? But I, But I had already done it by this point and I thought, well, actually, again, it's my responsibility to contribute to this project. So if I don't do it in the right way, in a way that enables me to bring the best of myself, then I will have failed. And I. But I did have to check in afterwards and coach, you know, just, just to check, wasn't planning, wasn't intending to tread on your toes. I just needed to, you know, and I think it is. It's about understanding each other. And I think, you know, you, as you evolve, as you maybe as people become more confident and maybe more more sensitive to the needs of others, to go back to what we were talking about in terms of connectivity, we. Look, I. I would hope that we would learn. What's that saying that Covey says, seek first to understand before trying to be understood. So, you know, you ask people, what, what works for you before you say, well, here's what works for me. I want to do it this way. And I think if you, if we could all do that in any scenario, we would probably all be a lot more effective.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's the simple things. And I think that's what's so encouraging about this episode, is that nothing that we described in this episode or, and nothing that we asked you to do as a listener in this episode is too complicated to understand. It's not. It's just diligent applications of these simple tools. And just because it's simple doesn't mean that it's easy. Right? You still have to put in the work. But it does work. And I think that's really what. What people can take away from this. And I know we're coming up on time here, Kate, but before you go, I would say if you were to give one piece of advice or encouragement, a parting piece of wisdom before you go to the. To the introverts in the audience, what would that last thing be?

I would say it is absolutely fine to be authentically yourself in any setting, whether that is personal or professional. You don't need to apologize for being a certain way because it's you. The challenge, however, is that we work and operate in a world of difference. And so, just as you know, we've talked about extroverts stepping towards introverts, the reverse is also true. And so challenging yourself as an introvert, just to step out of that place of comfort on occasion, in the service of whatever it is that you want to achieve, I think is it is a learnable skill. And, you know, and I can testify to it being a learnable skill because I have been in that place and I frequently go back to that place.

This is so good, Kate. I appreciate it. Thank you for joining us. Can you let the listeners know about how they can get in touch?

Yes. So I am on LinkedIn, Kate Philpott, P H I L P O T and very happy to connect with anybody who wants to drop me a line.

Awesome. Thanks again, Kate. Really appreciate it.

Absolute pleasure.

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