Marilyn McClure: Building Your Brand Through Negotiation

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Marilyn, thanks for joining us today.

My pleasure.

So how about you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Okay, great. I am currently vice president and associate General counsel at Nationwide Insurance Company and I'm responsible for our corporate and intellectual property class action litigation and discovery management. Spent the first half of my career in private practice. Started out in the coal industry doing collective bargaining and union avoidance. I was on the management side a lot of civil litigation in the retail, financial services, insurance area. Second half of my career, I've been in house as a corporate legal executive at two different Fortune 100s in the retail and then property and casualty and financial services industry.

Fantastic. Yeah. We are very excited to have you. We've had a ton of conversations just offline and now we're finally having the opportunity to capture it and share it with the masses. So I am excited to share your wisdom with my audience today.

Well, as a member of your fan base, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here having a great conversation with you.

Absolutely. And so this is going to be a little bit different than our regular episodes because usually we do a really tight episode 30 minutes, 33 main points, and then we get it, get in and get out, and then we're done. But with this one, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about a story. A story is going to be the base or the case study that we're going to utilize for the rest of the conversation. And then we're going to extract pieces of wisdom from that story. And so, listeners, what I want you to do is, even if this isn't a practice area or an industry that you're in, I want you to find the commonalities between what it is you do and, and the techniques and tactics and approach that Marilyn uses throughout the story. And then we're going to have a discussion about it. So I'm excited to hear it. So let's get started. It's story time, Marilyn. So where do we start?

Well, let's talk a little bit about experiences and negotiations and how they help you with your personal brand. Right. And so for me, and part of my story, it's a little bit of a dandelion tale because again, first half was in private practice. You get out of law school, you know what you're going to do, and then the good Lord does this great thing called life. And your journey takes you in different places, across different practices, different jurisdictions. And so what was really important for me during those times was to build relationships with folks and establish trust with them because I needed credibility with them, but to also do it in a way that I was true to myself. And as I work with professionals now, developing team members, mentoring and sponsoring different folks in the profession or across the country, the resounding theme of what is my personal brand becomes important. And so it becomes important because it's the centered space you can take yourself to in any circumstance. So early in my career I did a lot of coal work and you know, which was an interesting time in the early 90s, there was a lot of strike related violence, frankly, some of it fairly unprecedented for those times. And so, you know, being a young gal starting out in the practice of law, you had to be ready to take on what you needed to, but you also needed to be resilient and adaptable and had to have a strong sense of self. Now, quite honestly, that gets interesting for me. I was lucky to have been raised in a family with parents who believed in me and I thought I could do anything. And it was really interesting when I got out to the real world after law school to see that maybe the world didn't necessarily agree with that one of the first situations I had, and there were a couple that were very formulative, that I've learned a lot from and I've grown over the years to be grateful for, were just a couple of situations that I found myself because I was willing to work hard. So one of them was during the time I was doing work in the coal industry, we had a strike occur. Wildcat strike, despite the fact that there was a collective bargaining agreement with a no strike provision that was in full force and effect. And so we found ourselves having to go to federal court to get an injunction and in order sending the coal miners back to work. This was big deal early in my career, I was so excited to do it. There were not. There were a few women, but not many women doing this work. And of course, on my side, for my client, my cfo, my CEO, were men, as were my partners on the team. And so it was very exciting to be going to the federal courthouse to argue this motion. It was very, very important. So we get there and we go in, and the first thing that the judge does is the judge says, as we approach into the courtroom, I'd like to see the parties in chamber. And so I said, you, Honor, we really are going to need to go on the record here. And he said, well, I understand, but it's the court's practice to have you all come in chambers and let's have a conversation. All right, you, Honor. So we all proceeded in, and of course, our very worthy adversaries, union leadership, was present, as was my client. And so I explained the motion, and I'm making our points for the court's consideration. And then the judge says to me, Ms. McClure, I like you. I've heard what you had to say for your clients, and I'd like you to get the come hither look on your face and go up to the picket line and see if you can't get those gentlemen of the union to go back to work. Now, there's a lot of snickering going on in chambers. And I said, well, your Honor, I'm not sure I know what the come hither look is, but I'll be glad, sir, to go up to the picket line and see if I can get these fine gentlemen of the jury of the union to go back to work. And so he says, all right, Ms. McClure, please report back to the court after you have done this. And if you're not successful getting them to go back to work, the court will consider granting your motion and sending in the Federal marshals to help get these gentlemen back to work. So, you know, it was interesting, and we can debrief later, but the rest of the story is I promptly leave with my clients. We're heading back to the office, where there was another interesting event, and get back to the office. And then the discussion at the office with the clients and my partners is, what are you going to do? And I'm like, well, this is quite simple for me. I'm going to keep my word. I told the judge that I would go up there. And so now the issue is, who's going with me? And we'll go up there and see the gentleman on the picket line and see if we can't reason with them and get him to go back to work. So they stood with me, and we went up, and I get to the picket line, and there's fair amount of whistling and a couple of comments about me wearing shoes, and maybe I needed to get a frying pan and go home and do what other women do. And I talked to him, and I said, now, gentlemen, you know you have a collective bargaining agreement. And I tried to charm them into understanding, with great respect, that we really needed them to go back to work or the court was going to intervene. That was met with a lot of snickers. Obviously, it didn't work, But I tried and then went back with the clients to the court. And what was interesting to me when I returned, same MO with the judge. I'd like to see the parties in chamber. Could you come into chamber? Your Honor, I'm going to have to insist this time we need to have a record. Well, I understand that, Ms. McClure, but you come on in here and let's see what the parties have to say. So I tell my side of the story. We've gone up there. I have my clients who can affirm this. And then I said, you, Honor, didn't work. They didn't go back to work. But I gave it my best shot. And then what the judge says to me is, Attorney McClure changed from Ms. McClure to Attorney McClure, then the court's gonna keep its word. You've adequately argued the motion. The motion is granted. And, bailiff, if you would bring down the federal marshals to go with attorney McClure back up to the picket line to get these gentlemen to go back to work. So we did, and the gentleman went back to work. There's a lot to dig in there. One of them is composure in the moment. One of them is knowing who you are in the moment and continuing. I mean, you know, and some of it's just overcoming, right? So make the best of the moment, turn that into an opportunity. And. And in that moment, it did not feel very good, to be quite honest with you. Like, I, you know, there's a part of you that thinks, oh my Lord, should I drop and run? But the other part of me thought, I know exactly what to do and I'm not afraid to do it. I'm willing to invest in other people. And so I'm going to give my word to do this and go keep my word. Now, one of the things that was very interesting to me and you know, at the time, it didn't feel so good. As I've aged and practiced, I've looked back upon that and thought, even though it didn't feel like it in the moment, that judge gave me great opportunity to show what I was made of. And the fact that I could make my own decision, stand on my own two feet, not let it keep me off my game of representing my clients, but also receive and respect the positions of those who were not my clients kind of cemented my brand. It did more than announce I had just arrived to the practice. It announced who I was in my practice. And I'm very grateful for that because over my time practicing over the last more than quarter of a century now, working with others, either on my teams or who are part of my clients in their organization or those I mentor and sponsor, I've worked with folks. Sometimes it takes decades to have an experience that helps you cement who you are and validate who you are and then let you work towards it. And so I'm grateful for that. And it has translated for me in my career to there is nothing I can't negotiate or won't negotiate to my own personal standard. And so it freed me up a lot. I think as a young woman who first generation lawyer from Appalachia to figure out how to marylandize folks, I wanted to move, not try to be somebody else, another woman, another man, but to figure out how to use the attributes and the blessings that the good Lord gave me to sort of marylandize other folks and help move them. Because, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, negotiations is all about communicating, but it's deeper than that. You know, you're moving people when you negotiate, when you communicate basically in the highest categories, you're either informing people of information they need to know or you're elevating things for action.

Right.

So. Or a combination of the both. But when you're negotiating, you're moving people. And if you want to move people, you have to move too. And so you've really got to have a good centered and I think you want over time a brand that allows you to flex your style and grow yourself and bring others along. But it's something that you can be true to regardless of industry, technical practice area, dispute, contract, marital bliss, whatever it is you're negotiating at the time.

Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yeah, this is fantastic. I love this story and there's so many things to dig into, but just big picture. I like how you're able to blend the personal branding along with effective negotiation strategy. Because in that moment it's difficult to do. Because when you feel emotional, your mind gets focused on the thing that caused you to feel that emotional duress. And the thing that we want to do is immediately alleviate that emotional duress. And that's what leads us to make this mistakes in the moment. But you were able to take a big picture view and recognize not only what you needed to do strategically in order to get the outcome you wanted in this difficult conversation, but you were also able to do it in a way that improved your personal brand throughout the process. And I think what people often miss when we think about negotiation as a personal branding tool is that we think too short term. How can I be successful in this particular negotiation? And we don't take the time to say how can this particular negotiation get me where I want to go in my overall career? And that's the difference between thinking tactically and thinking strategically. We have to have a grand strategy for our career and use negotiation as a tool to get there while at the same time being mindful of what we need to accomplish in the moment for our respective stakeholders.

Absolutely understanding emotion, whether it's yours or someone else's, and not being afraid to either overcome it or receive it, but move past it or help others through it, because you have to do a lot of that in negotiation is huge. I think the other thing, one of the other big points you just made, which I always love listening to you for this very reason. Timing, right. You got to get timing right on things. And, you know, we use these adages like pick and choose your battles, or it's a sprint. You know, do you want to win the battle or the war? And it's a marathon, not a sprint. And we all say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's true. And it's all about timing. So there are times to take a position you dig into, and we might get to one of those stories in a bit. And there are times to say, you know, I might fly above this one right here because there's a bigger issue to be accomplished. And when others see you do that yourself, there's something about that over my time in my practice that inspires and empowers others to give it their shot, too. And so sometimes you don't want a rushed, quick over negotiation. Time becomes your friend. So protracted negotiations like you often see in collective bargaining, which looks very different than maybe going in to mediate the resolution of a piece of civil litigation, depending on its complexity. I don't rush either of them now. We want to move them along and those kind of things, but sometimes you don't want to rush that. And then sometimes there are things that come up that could be what I call barriers or stop signs. And you just need to decide whether it's a rolling stop, if it's a stop at all, or if it's something you just overcome because you're going to let it go. I think on the personal branding side, and when you and I were talking a little bit, I think it's important to have your own brand and have your own motto. And so for me, over time, and I've been so blessed because I've practiced in so many different industries and different places and tried cases and negotiated labor contracts all over the country, as well as resolve complex litigation and other kinds of disputes, including disputes we resolve and negotiate to avoid litigation. Right. And that kind of spend. And so part of what that is, is I've had to develop my own motto that I want to bring myself back to in any negotiation. And so my personal motto that I have developed is don't take it personal. Make it personal. And by that I mean be skilled at overcoming and understanding your own emotion and flying above things. So you don't take it personal because you're the one who ultimately decides if you need to, or in fact, you do. But then if you decide not to take it personal, turn around and disarm by making it personal. Make it a memorable experience or journey with people so that when they think of you over time, the journey they went on with you and the negotiation and how that made them feel lingers longer than that final end result. When you crossed the T, you dotted the I, you had a deal, you got a settlement, or you parted ways and moved on to other challenges.

Right? And, you know, one thing I want to go back to in this story is when the judge said, I want you to put on the come hither look. For our international listeners who might not be familiar with that term, it is a nod to seduction, right? There's a sexual implication there. And so that is highly offensive. And I know probably back in West Virginia at that time, it was probably taken in a different way. But today, that would be something where the judge would probably lose his job over if that were to come out. And so in that moment, how were you able to maintain your composure in the face of something like that?

Well, I say it like this. I mean, you feel it and you know it. I did two things to diffuse it for myself, and part of this is upbringing, and I give credit to my parents, and that was to try to handle things with class because you never know what shoes people are wearing and etc. And so the one thing for me that I did that I don't know if you noticed, but I said, well, your honor, I'm not exactly sure what the come hither look is, but I'll be glad to go up to that picket line and see if I can't get the fine gentleman of the union to go back to work. And part of that was truth. Also an unwillingness to let that sort of broad brush taint my ability as an attorney to represent my clients or to influence my style or my sense of responsibility. And so, to me, I felt like I gently diffused it without making it bigger than life, because I wanted this to be about, you know, hey, I wanted this to be, gee, woods, this gal is a heck of a lawyer, and she can take what comes her way and do it with grace and class and still bring people together and can see people. And so I, you know, I chose to do that. In that moment, I would do that again. I have reflected over this story over my career and, you know, shared it in a way to help other people over time. And I was glad I handled it that way because I, you know, that was early, early in my law career. I was establishing a reputation and very much wanted to be Marilyn, not emulating the one woman, if there was one, or trying to succumb to cultural things where I had to engage in behaviors and conduct or even use words that were not Maryland. And so it was my effort to diffuse it, but not be defined by it, to keep on and press on with my job. And at the end of the day here, the goal was to get everybody back to work. That was good for both sides. We had a negotiation, a collective bargaining agreement that had been negotiated by both sides. And to do it in a way that was, I guess my thought was respectful, because if the court thought that I had, you know, the other thing, the other way to look at this, too, is, hey, this judge thinks I have enough influence to go up there, make a difference, and he doesn't have send in the marshals. Well, okay, if you have that, I can go do it. I'm not afraid to do that. And so, you know, unpacking that over the decades, just that single story in the moment, there were many who thought, gee, was. That was ridiculous. I mean, I remember some of my partners were like, this is not how the practice, the law goes. And, you know, and I'm like, I can shake this off. It'll be fine. But I also was like, you know, here's a chance to make a difference, too, and show that that's not going to cause me to not do what needs done in this moment or to rise to a challenge to see if there's an alternate way to resolve this dispute without intervention of marshals and an order of the court. And so if I really want to live in to being a great negotiator, I'm going to be open to those opportunities when they come. I'll also say this about it. That judge, later in my career, before he passed away, would tell me that he knew that day and that week, because we were back within, I don't know, 36 hours front of the court, I would say that he knew then I would be one of the best lawyers to ever practice in front of them. And, you know, he changed the respect he showed me. He was calling me Ms. McClure when it started, which I frankly didn't take offense to. But when I returned after having gone to that picket line, he referred to me as Attorney McClure. And so what didn't feel good or look like much of an opportunity then, over the years, I've come to appreciate was a great opportunity. I'VE worked with other lawyers and people over decades. It took them decades to establish the kind of credibility that an opportunity that doesn't feel so good if you seize on it can create for you much sooner in time. And frankly, that helps cement my brand, my reputation, my career. I was fearless, but tried not to be foolhardy, tried to exercise grace and be respectful of other people willing to meet them where they are, go to a picket line across several in my career, and also able to move on to other opportunities. Right. I would say, though, that those were influential times for me. A lot of my colleagues and peers who know me now in current roles and see me negotiate much different disputes, totally different scenarios say to me, gosh, I never knew that about you, but when I hear that, I can see it a little bit because you engage people. First thing you do when you negotiate is engage other people. So I'll stop there. I didn't.

No, this is great. This is really, really great. And I think one of the core parts of this message is the importance of recognizing opportunities. And I mentioned this in my TED Talk too. When it comes down to it, conflict is an opportunity. We just need to be creative enough in the moment to see where the opportunity is. And again, when your emotions are clouded, clouding your judgment, it's hard, really hard to see it. But just remembering that it's an opportunity and then forcing yourself in the moment to see, where's the opportunity? Where's the opportunity? You're going to recognize that you're going to start to get grounded in the moment and you'll start to think more clearly. And I tell you, it's really impressive how you were able to maintain your composure at such a young stage in your career in such a high stakes negotiation. But again, like you said, it was an important part of the building of your personal brand going forward. And then for the second difficult conversation that you had, we had the judge and then we had you walking up to the picket line. And for those of you who don't know what a picket line is, so just painting the story, the picture here. So we're in West Virginia. It is a coal mining operation. And so you have hundreds of men with signs talking about how evil your client is. And you walk up to them as a young woman and you say, hey, please stop. So how were you able to do that? Because that's, again, not an easy thing to do.

You know, it's interesting, others have asked me that before. I'll be honest with you, I again, I give my parents credit and where I'm from, Appalachia, and you know, the good lord credit for this, I just was raised to respect other people and consider where they are first in addition to yourself, because you don't know what shoes they wear. And so frankly, for me at that time, while others might have thought that was crazy, I just was like, well, in a way it's playing proper respects. And in a way, if I actually believe in the end result, I'm going to try to get for my client here, that is get everybody back to work. It doesn't have to be my way or the highway, how that happens. And so when a third party tribunal, a federal sitting judge has a suggestion that makes good sense, why not be open to it? And I think that was great for me and very formulative too, because one of the other themes in my career that I talk with folks about all the time, you've got to be adaptable and you want to be resilient and you want to be in charge of your best self and your emotional reaction to things so that when an opportunity comes with reason, you can pivot. And so being open to another thought, what I'll call pulling out the stops, was not inconsistent with my brand because if it would have worked, can you imagine, I don't know, I probably could have charged a higher billable hour if they thought I had that much influence. But those folks were worth it. And you know, I loved the time I did the work, a lot of the management side work. And even though it gets really difficult sometimes, have great appreciation for the union movement and what it's done in our country and frankly had family on both sides of that. And so why not be open to an alternate path? If it works, my goodness gracious. And if it doesn't, you can always come back to the initial strategy you were employing to begin with. But you've also demonstrated to other people, I think, that you're open, you can adapt to different things, you're willing to try and meet others where they are, which I think is super, super important in building credibility and trust. Because if you're not willing to meet other people where they are, why would you expect them to meet you where you are? So and again, I, over time, that story has meant even more to me because I've realized and recognized that even though I didn't feel like it in the moment, that judge gave me an incredible opportunity in my career, one that not everyone gets. So it was up to me to make the most of it. And I've tried, definitely.

And One of the terms that you mentioned a few times now is engagement. You had a willingness to engage. And so we saw that clearly in this story where you were, you know, walking up to the picket line knowing that you were probably going to be harassed all the way through the process. And that probably made it easier for you to do that in the future. And so for you listeners out there, when you're confronted with a difficult situation and you say, I just don't want to engage, I don't want to have this conversation, recognize that this is going to make it easier for you in the, in the next negotiation that you have. I think about it in terms of a video game. In video game, you have levels and there's a boss at the end of the level. If you don't beat the boss, you don't go to level two. And so if you think about your career in the same way, you have to beat these bosses at the end of these games in order to move up to the next level. And it's really up to you whether or not you want to engage. And so for you now, as you're a corporate attorney, you're, you've worked for two Fortune 100 companies, you have these high level contract negotiations. What does engagement look like in those interactions when it gets really, really tense?

So it's very interesting, very interesting because at the end of the day, people are people. And so all of negotiations involve people, which is part of what I love about negotiation and people. But it does look very different. And so for the time that I was a corporate legal executive, retail, a big part of my duties and responsibilities included collective bargaining and union avoidance, but also managing litigation and resolving disputes and then anything else, duties as assigned, which really caters and moves you closer to generalist tendencies. Current role. What I've seen from those is complex international negotiations where you're dealing with people in multiples of countries at differing organizations. I've seen catastrophic sort of circumstances and injuries that life presents with people. And so, you know, the loss of life and so trying to help people resolve their differences and get sort of restorative properties out of the negotiations process. Not just monetary resolution, resolution or avoidance of civil litigation, but sort of restorative properties out of the negotiation that permit them to reset and continue on even though the path looks different than they thought that it would. And I think it becomes increasingly important in those moments as a negotiator to make sure you engage with folks and you build that in because it's very important. And that goes really to Emotion, too, and diffusing emotion. I think the second piece for me, resolving complex situations and negotiations, is also team leadership, right? Leading organizational change, leading structural change, cultural change. And I've had several opportunities while I've been in house, great opportunities to lead, but very challenging combinations. When you're leading culture transformation, changing a culture of an organization, at the same time you're bringing a team together, assessing a team, redesigning a team, building centers of excellence or whatever, you're really getting into the human side, just like you would in complex dispute resolution. Because you've got to decide, can you bring these folks together? Can people co lead? Believe it or not, that becomes a challenge at different stages, right? On a team, can you co lead? Some people do well with it, and some people don't do well with it. And so it's played out for me in so many different ways under the umbrella of negotiation. But the thing that's at the corner of it and centerpiece of it is people and me not just being focused on a result, a predefined result, but being focused on how we get the result. Because as the great American poet Maya Angelou says, and I love to quote, because I thought this was fabulous, people may not remember what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel. And so over a career of negotiating, you know, one of the largest and best compliments you ever get is you might have battled with someone, which I don't particularly care for the word, but that's true. If we're worthy adversaries, we get into major arm wrestling and negotiation and battling, if you will. It's not just prevailing on the result. For me at this stage, it's having a result when we all get there, we've achieved together. And so the collaboration along the way and engaging people and bringing them to a table and inspiring and empowering them to help us redefine a common goal we can meet together, whether it's the reorganization of the team, breaking down silos so that there's greater collaboration and we can reach alignment across teams. If it's a complex dispute we're resolving, bridging the gaps that help us settle a piece of complex litigation, Right? And so it's played out for me in so many ways because I have got to continue to grow and learn. I've got to learn other people. Every time your negotiation changes, your team changes, you've got to reassess and learn those folks. And so one of the things that I would hope is a hallmark of my brand is being willing to trust first and being willing to step out. And that has permitted me to walk into any part of our country or be on an international call with a complete stranger and go meet them where they are, learn something about them and engage with them, hopefully share some of me. And so that because relationships really, really matter. And in negotiations, you either start with some semblance of a relationship upon which you build, or. Or you start with no relationship and you must forge one even during the course of the negotiation. And so you've got to be willing. Somebody has to trust first if somebody's not willing to take that step. And I made a decision a long time ago, and maybe it goes back to the union story we talked about, that I was going to trust first and step out and do some things to meet other people where they were. And to me, that's a show of proper respect. It's also a genuine effort on my part to get to know them and to receive them and see them and respect them and then over time, as you know each other, whether it's protracted negotiations or maybe it didn't last that long, but when they see you, keep your word. And the how and the journey of the negotiation to the ultimate result was consistent with what they initially thought or concluded and the how you made them feel on the journey to get to the result, made that final handshake after you reached common ground, really mean something, is when people say, when I get down and out, or it's me and mine that are, that's who I'm going to hire. And so I think that's a great compliment and cements the personal branding on why it matters how you get a result, not just what the result is. Just one other thought for your consideration. I think we get caught up in emotion as you know, what's the end result? Here's the predefined result. Well, in negotiation, if you really embrace the journey, there's multiple results. And so you want to redefine and reframe and celebrate those victories that are steps through progressive negotiation. And as you do that, people can step into it and become a part of it. You know, you're including them. You get them invested in the journey, engaged in the journey, and then sooner or later, you look up and you can both or all. Because some of these have been, you know, 25 different organizations involved and their representatives and their outside lawyers. So it's a family reunion, let me tell you. And, but, but as you journey on and you build credibility and relationship, you can identify, yeah, we all Want A. Now, A may translate different to us, but we can agree on the A. And then you say, all right, let's figure out how we all come together to get to an A. So at the end, when you get the result, complete resolution, this journey is over. We've met whatever the common ground is. If folks say, gee whiz, I never thought we could do it. You willed it, you made me will it, we got through it. What happens after journeys like that in negotiations or leading teams is those folks are forever in your network, which is then another great part of the journey is you've also expanded your network because oftentimes those are meaningful career bet the company, really large exposure, high stakes things. But when people know you kept your word, your credibility, not just that you were right and gave direction, not just you told them, but you embraced them and you pulled them to the table, and here comes their creative and innovative thought. And how we reframe what the end result is and can join together to get to it. It's not only rewarding, but it inspires and empowers them. And then you're on their radar because how you got the result and the journey of the negotiation maybe was even more important than what the final result was.

Right. This is great. And I think a great synopsis for that is just. It's people in process. That's it. When you think about the. The approach that you have for negotiation, it's people you engage, you treat people with respect, you trust first. And then the process, you do it in a way that is respectful to the other side, that's honorable. But at the same time, you're zealously advocating on behalf of your client's interests. And so the people on the other side, they say, wow, Marilyn was a worthy adversary. She did the best that she could given her position for her clients, and she did it in a way that was respectful. If I want an attorney, I'm working with you. I think that's. That's the ultimate testament to your efficacy as an advocate and as a negotiator, too. So this, this has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed this. I. The time just flew by. I just looked at the time and said, wow, this has been great, though. And I think it's just a sign that we have to have you back on the show again to go deeper into some of these. But before you go, make sure you let the listeners know who you are, what you do, and how they can get in touch with you.

Oh, absolutely. And I want to just add one Other thing, if you would let me, because my time with you always get so fast because it's such a pleasure to be with you. But one of the most important things I think here is self awareness and self checking. You get off being centered or you go someplace that's not your authentic self or true to your brand. You have to be the one to identify it and fix yourself. And there are multiples of folks I've negotiated with or practiced with, been on teams with will tell you they've watched me dial it back. They have. I would hope they would tell you they've watched me recover because I was self aware and wanted to be in tune with that, which means I'm not perfect, which I'm pretty clear about. But I want to be sure to get that out there because it is very much mutual. And people know if they believe you, like a jury people you negotiate. They know if you're genuine and if you're authentic and if they can believe you. Now, whether you can always deliver is a separate issue for another session. But you want to have that self awareness and be able to keep yourself in the middle of the road and dial things back when you need to or recover if you need to, for yourself. So, anyway, my name is Marilyn McClure Demers and I'm currently on LinkedIn and Vice President Associate General Counsel at Nationwide Mutual Insurance Company. A great organization and it was just such a pleasure to be with you here today. I'm a big fan, as you know, and I think the conversations that you lead and the lives you touch and the impact you're having to make us all better at negotiating makes us really ultimately better people and enhances our profession. So thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure. It was so great having you on the show. It's been a long time coming, but we're glad that you're here and glad that you like the show too. So thank you very much and we'll catch you in the next one. Guys, congratulations. You've just joined an elite, elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We are excited to have you. And I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.