Masterclass in Negotiation: Insights from the Best in the Business - Highlight reel

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Okay, so what about the danger of assuming rationality in negotiation? Because typically people approach negotiation and they're like, oh, you know, one plus one equals two. Everybody knows that. And then those people always end up being frustrated. So what role does rationality play to you?

You know, rationality. If this was a rational world, would we have the presidential candidates that we have? If this was a rational world, would the US Government lock down and go into sequester? You know, if this was a rational world, would we need the United Nations? You know, we could go on and on and on. If this was a rational world, would somebody's 13 year old child not want a video game? That doesn't do them any good? I mean, rationality is this absurd fiction of our lives. You know, we make decisions based on what we care about, and that makes decision making, by definition, an emotional process which knocks rationality, rationality out of it. Rationality is what we come up with after we've already decided what we want. And if this was a rational world, I mean, we'd be looking at a very different world. So a hostage negotiator never thought it was a rational world. We always thought we were driven by emotions, and that's why this stuff works.

So for those who think it is rational, now that they have been disavowed of that belief, how do you suggest that they approach it? Now that we realize it's emotional, it's not a logical proceeding, what would be the best way for them to. Now that they've come to that conclusion, what's the best way for them to proceed?

Well, you know, just interact with people and, you know, echo back to them, clarify with them, validate without agreeing how they feel about something. I Challenge any person listening to this to spend only one day, just one day, just trying to validate what people agree. Don't say, I understand. Say, hey, from your perspective, this is the way it looks to you. You know, you're upset about this because of this. Just spend a day, a vacation from rationality, if you will, and see what happens. People in your life are going to love you. You might just have the most enjoyable day that you had, and it's amazing how things will work themselves out. So then, if you can get things to sort of work themselves out by applying a higher level of emotional intelligence to your interactions, spend the next day seeing if you can add in. Then how can we reach some agreements based on my newfound emotional intelligence superpowers?

And this kind of sounds like what you were talking about in the book when you mentioned tactical empathy.

Yeah.

Am I on the right page there? Okay. Can you tell the audience a bit about that?

Yeah.

Well, again, it's. We've known enough about this. I mean, tactical empathy is, you know, taking empathy and making it operational. The Rand Corporation is this incredible think tank that was founded in the US And I remember talking to the head of Rand a number of years ago, and he said, you know, knowledge isn't any good if you don't apply it. You know, let's apply what we know. Let's apply our emotional intelligence. So that's the whole idea. We're trying to apply emotional intelligence. We're trying to get each other in a better way. It's a tactical approach. We know enough about empathy. I know if you're upset about something, if I just recognize you're upset, that'll help you gain control over it. I just say, look, I could see you're really upset about it. If I know you like something and I recognize that you like it, if you feel good about something, I can say, yeah, I can see this really matters to you. I know tactically speaking, you're going to feel better about it. You know, pick your favorite sports team. You know, pick. Pick the Seattle Seahawks. You know, you could say, you know, I know you really love the way the Seahawks play since Pete Carroll's been coaching them. You really love Pete Carroll. I mean, it makes people feel better. So we've done this enough. I mean, why not apply this tactically? Is it wrong to apply it tactically? Is this nefarious in some way? Yeah, only if you're trying to manipulate somebody into something that's bad for them. You know what? One man's manipulation is another man's Persuasion or another man's influence. You see a beautiful girl, you tell her she's beautiful. You're trying to manipulate her into going on a date with you. You try to manipulate a beautiful woman into falling in love with you. You see someone who you work with who's done a great job for your company, and you say, man, great job. You know, you're actually trying to manipulate them into feeling better about their efforts and. And doing it again. So it's not that any of these tools are, by definition, wrong. It's dependent upon, you know, what you're trying to do with them.

See, that's fascinating because you are, in a sense, manipulating their emotions for your own purposes. But then again, like you said, it comes down to whether or not you're doing it in a way that's detrimental to them.

Right.

And that's the kind of ethical line, right?

Yeah, there's a very definite ethical line that I would draw in how I apply these skills, you know, but sometimes people get really worried about because emotional intelligence is ridiculously powerful. There was an article written not that long ago called the Dark side of Emotional Intelligence, because it can have a dark side when you understand how powerful it could be. And a lot of times people say, aren't you worried about this? And I say, have you got. Have you got a. Have you got a smartphone? Have you got an iPhone? Have you got a BlackBerry? A Droid? Have you got a Samsung Galaxy? Have you got any of these phones? Reach in your pocket, pull out your smartphone. You got one of those. And everybody does. And I'll say, you know, there's some really bad people that use these. Oh, but wait a minute. That didn't stop you from using your phone because somebody else is using it with bad intent. No, it's just a tool, and it depends upon how you use it. It's up to you. It's up to your own integrity.

That's a brilliant example. And I tell you, I think the emotional aspect of this is something that's overlooked for a lot of reasons. One of them being that some people have fooled themselves into believing that, oh, emotions don't belong in the business world. And so they're leaving one of the most powerful, persuasive tools on the table because they believe that emotions don't belong. It's all logic.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, and they'll say, the same guy who tell you that emotions don't belong, they'll tell you that you should be passionate about your company's mission. You know, you should have A passion and purpose. And, you know, wait a minute. Aren't those synonyms, you know, emotion versus passion? It's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

Right. And one of the things I really liked about tactical empathy is that you didn't just stop there when it comes to identifying with people's emotions and getting deeper there. You brought in mirroring, which was a powerful tool that you were able to use to get deeper and get people to elaborate. Can you tell them a little bit about that one?

You know, mirroring is this ridiculously simple little tool that works wonders, and it might be the closest thing to a Jedi mind trick that we've got. You know, it's not your. The mirroring you learned in your Networking 101 session where they say mirror someone's body language or mirror their tone of voice or mirror their energy level. That's.

That's.

No, it's none of those things. It's repeating the last one to three words of what someone has just said. The last one to three words of what they've just said. Yeah, of what they've just said. And those were examples of mirrors. And it causes people to go on their connectors. They reword, they clarify, they tell you more. They feel encouraged. And if you don't do it naturally, you don't believe it until you try it. And people take themselves hostage all the time. They say, well, that's too wooden, or that's too formulaic, or that's too parrot. Like, nobody's going to like it. So I'm not going to try it. You're taking yourself hostage by beating yourself like that. When we teach it, it's actually one of the first skills we teach because it feels so awkward until you know how it works. And then people love it once they catch on. They absolutely love it. They do it all the time.

Yeah. It's so powerful and so simple to execute. And I think one of the things that you mentioned in the book, that is one of the keys to mirroring effectively was being patient and comfortable in the three to four seconds of silence that happens after you mirror.

Right, right. Exactly. You know, and three seconds can feel like an eternity. And people are horrified. I would say fully half of us are horrified to shut up and let that three seconds pass and even be silent until the other person speaks. I mean, effective pauses are named that for a reason. They can be powerful tools if you can just learn to please be still for three seconds.

Right.

William, I know you have a really good story about maintaining your Equipment under duress and staying cool under pressure. Can you tell the audience about the difficult conversation you had with Hugo Chavez?

For sure. It was 20 years ago. There were a million people on the streets of the capital of Venezuela, Caracas, demanding the immediate resignation downfall of President Hugo Chavez. There were a million people on the street supporting him. Violence was breaking out, people were arming themselves. There were rumors civil war was in the offing, and former President Jimmy Carter asked me if I would go down there and just listen and see what I could. And so in the course of that, I had an number of meetings with President Chavez. One of them in particular, he liked to meet at night. It was nine o' clock set in the Presidential Palace. He was there, I was there with my Argentinian colleague Francisco Diaz from the Carter center, and we waited patiently. 9, 10, 11, midnight, we're finally ushered in to see the President, expecting to find him alone. In fact, he had his entire cabinet arrayed behind him. So we were a little shocked. And then he motions me to a chair and he says, so, Yuri, tell me, what's your impression of the situation here in Venezuela? And I said to him, I said, senor Presidente, I've been talking to some of your ministers here, I've been talking to some of the leaders of the opposition, and I believe they're making a little progress. Well, progress wasn't the word he wanted to hear. He said. He started shouting. He said, are you a fool? Are you naive, you third parties, you mediators, you know nothing at all. You're not seeing the dirty tricks those traitors on the other side are up to. And he leaned very close to my face. I could feel his, you know, I could smell his breath, you know. And he proceeded to shout at me for approximately 30 minutes. And, you know, I was kind of stunned. I wasn't expecting this, you know, I was feeling a little embarrassed in front of the entire, you know, dressed down, I was feeling all this work I've been doing for months down the drain. You know, you're going through this whole internal thought process and feelings going. Friend of mine had once said to me, he said, william, when you're in a tough situation, pinch the palm of your hand. And I said, if not, why would I pinch the palm of my hand? He said, because that will give you temporary little page will keep you alert. Whatever reason that was my way of going to the balcony, was pinching the palm of my hand so that I could. Then when you go to the balcony, the balcony is that place of common perspective. We all have inside of ourselves. We have to access it where you can keep your eyes on the prize. And what was the prize here? I could ask myself the fundamental question, what do I want here? What's my goal? And, you know, my goal is to try and calm the situation. And then I could further ask myself, because I was preparing, you know, my defenses as we do, what are you going to say and respond to all these attacks? I said to myself, is it really going to advance things if I get into an argument with the president of Venezuela? And I could say, no. So then I bit my tongue and I listened. And having paid attention to myself and my own feelings for a moment, in those little moments of silence that you're talking about, Kwame, I just took those little moments of silence to pay attention. My nervous system settled a little bit, and I was able to listen to him. Like the balcony. I was watching it as if it was a play unfolding, you know, and, and. And is he trying to impress his. His cabinet? Why is he doing this? And just. You bring curiosity. This is one of my favorite things, is meet animosity with curiosity. You know, just, okay, be curious. And so what's going on for him? And, you know, he was a man who could give speeches for seven, eight hours, no problem, but 30 minutes without any reaction from me. I was just watching his body language, and his shoulders slowly sank for a moment, and in a kind of weary tone of voice, he said to me, so, Yuri, what should I do? Well, that, my friends, is the faint sound of a human mind opening. Is that. That. Because before that, if I tried to reason with him, someone's angry, they're not going to listen. It's like banging your head against a wall. But in that moment, he was open. And so I said to him, you know, Mr. President, it's nearly Christmas. The festivities are, you know, are all being canceled like they were last year. Why not just give everyone a break? A tregua in Spanish, you know, a truce for three weeks, four weeks, allow people to enjoy the holidays with their families, come back in January. Maybe everybody will be in a better mood to listen. Well, he looks at me. A moment of silence. He says, you know what? That's an excellent idea. I'm going to propose that my next speech. And he claps. I'm back. So, you know, his mood had completely shifted. And what I learned then and there, or realized most dramatically, is that the greatest power that we have, negotiation, is the power not to react. It's to pause. It's to go to the balcony. The best way to start a negotiation is to stop.

Hey.

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How do you know when you're conceding too much? Well, I have a rule about concessions and that is that you never make a concession without getting something in return. So whenever you make a concession, if you're not getting something in return, right away, there's something wrong there, something is not right, and you don't want to be making concessions when that occurs. The other situation is if I make a concession, I have to be certain that I'm not sabotaging myself. So it's important to know where your bottom line is. And once you start, you know, once you're in a position, you're being forced into a position where you're going below your bottom line, then you know you have to stop, because at that point, at that point, you're going to wind up with an agreement that is not agreeable.

Right. One thing that I always tell my clients is that you want to concede according to plan. And so this means you have a concession strategy going into it. And really to speaking directly to your point, where you understand that you have a bot. A position that you cannot go below. And if you give one massive concession that takes you right up to your bottom line immediately in a negotiation, then you have nowhere else to go. You have no place to maneuver at that point. And so it's important to concede incrementally because like you said, you concede in order to get something. You have to get that those reciprocal concessions. But if you just give one big one now, you don't have any more bargaining chips.

Well, you brought up a very good point, and that is that you really should know going into the negotiation what you're willing to concede and what you're not willing to concede. And that's a good way to prevent yourself from making a mistake. So you should know that, you know, all right, these are the things that I'm willing to give away, and these are the things that I'm not willing to give away. That's part of your preparation, right?

Exactly. And now on the flip side, when it comes to defensive strategies, let's say they're negotiating against somebody who went through your negotiation boot camp, and so they are set on not conceding without getting something in return. How do we defend ourselves when. When we are feeling the pressure from the other side to make a reciprocal concession?

Well, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's a way that you can find a win win agreement when you start to identify what it is that's important to the other side. That's how you find clues for answering the question, what constitutes a win win.

Absolutely.

So if you say to me, ed, I'll do X for you, if you do Y for me, that may be the optimum agreement for us.

Right. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. You suggest being explicit about the fact that this concession is contingent upon receiving something in return.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. If you say to me, ed, I want the following concession from you. So what I have to say to you is, well, if I give you that concession, will you give me such and such concession so you make a trial close out of it?

I love that. Yeah, that's a brilliant point. That is A brilliant point, because this is something that a lot of negotiators struggle with when it comes to the horse trading aspect of it. When we're going back and forth making concessions and trying to make these deals, how to do it in a way that doesn't concede too much value.

See, if you don't do that, if you don't say, if I give you this, will you give me that? If you don't do that, you're really negotiating against yourself because I asked you for a concession and you say, okay, Ed, you can have this concession. So what am I going to do then? I'm going to ask you for another concession and another concession. But as soon as you say to me, wait a minute, if I give you this concession, will you give me that concession? Now you're getting something, you're getting something out of it and you're preventing me from ramping up and asking you for all kinds of things.

Exactly, exactly. And also, if you can do this correctly and implement a little bit of creativity in the process, giving a concession doesn't necessarily mean that you're losing value. It could be something that simply creates value for the other side without causing much damage to your position.

Well, you know, there, there we have to get into a definition of what a concession is and how a concession should be. The purpose of a concession is to give a sense of satisfaction to the other party. So it might not even be a significant concession that you make. It might be something really small. But if they have a sense of satisfaction, it will make them feel that they are a winner in the negotiation.

Right. Oh, this is great. And this brings up another point that people ask about when it comes to apologies in negotiation, because like you said, it gives people a sense of satisfaction. So what is your take on apologizing in a negotiation? If the other side feels as though a mistake was made or it feels as though they've been slighted in some way?

Well, it's a double edged sword. I mean, if you make it, made a mistake, you know, I think it's important to fess up. But I also believe that very often people will be overly apologetic and say, oh, I'm so sorry, I wish I could do. I can't, you know. No, you have to show confidence in your position. You have to behave in a way that what you're doing makes sense. So you can't always be apologizing. You know, it's one thing to. It's one thing if you make a mistake, but otherwise, if you're a seller. For example, you don't want to apologize for your. You don't want to say, gee, you know, I know my price is too high. I'm sorry. You know, forget that. Your price is not too high, you're not sorry. What you want to do is justify it. Say, this is the reason why my price is high.

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Body language itself is something that adds an extra dimension to the way we project ourselves and the words we use to do so. Now that's a synopsis because as it relates to negotiation, someone can say that's my best offer. Now folks may have observed that I literally leaned away as I was saying that that even that gesture can convey two different sentiments. Number one, that's my best offer. I want to get away from the statement that's my best offer and I'm sticking to it because I don't want to be any closer to you. The Opposition to whom I'm negotiating with. So if someone saw that, knowing that there are two possible avenues that that particular display could convey, one would follow up from a negotiation point of view of your best offer. Now, you notice the head tilt there, the inquisitiveness in which I actually conveyed my sentiments also. So by saying something along the lines of your best offer, you're soliciting the person that emitted that first gesture to continue to give you more insight, to give you more input, from which you can then even slightly shift your perspective of how you present yourself from that point on. Let's take it a step further. And the person said, that's absolutely my best offer. Now, you notice the synchronization with the words and the finger coming down on the words I was pronouncing to add emphasis on that's my best offer. You may have also noticed the deepening of my voice tonality as I said that that gesture also indicates a more seriousness now for that particular individual that's speaking those words per his mindset, his or her mindset, and the position in which they are taken at that moment in time. So those are just some quick examples, and there are tons of examples of how people should always observe body language in a negotiation to gather more information and insight.

So, first of all, listeners, if you're not subscribed to our YouTube page or negotiate anything premium, you need to see this video, because this is great. This is a masterclass already, Greg, because what we're seeing is that there is often a difference between what somebody's words convey and then what their body conveys. That's one thing. And then also, when you understand body language, then you recognize that you can amplify your own message by synchronizing what your words are saying with your body language to make what you're saying a lot more convincing. This is incredibly powerful. And I want to go back to what you said at the beginning. Understanding body language gives us an extra dimension. And when it comes to negotiation, ultimately it's an information game. The more information we have, the better we're going to be. And we recognize that if we are not paying attention to body language or if we're on the phone or trying to negotiate via email, we're not even privy to being able to read the body language. We're missing out on an incredible amount of information that can help us in the negotiation.

Now, see, Kwame, you just shined again and showed why you're such an excellent negotiator, too. That was a great synopsis for sure, there was definitely value add as you highlighted and being able to read body language language. And I'll add non verbal communications because you spoke about being on the phone and not being able to see the gestures that someone may emit. You can hear some of them though, in the way that they speak. Someone just presented an offer to you and the person said, I can do that at $100,000. That's different from I can do that at $100,000, which is even more different than I could do that at 100,000. Now, the same words were spoken, but three different sentiments were conveyed via the tonality and pace at which someone emitted those words. And thus, if you observe even how they say something when you can't see someone's body language gestures, you can still listen to their nonverbal cues and hear what's actually not seen and gather that as additional information from which you can reposition your offer or counteroffer.

This is so cool, because I think there's an element that could be almost overwhelming because you're saying, oh, wait a second, because I'm here talking to you speaking English, okay, that's one thing that's occurring. But then the same words delivered in different ways mean completely different things. And then when we blend tonality with the body language, that's an additional thing for us to read. And so again, it can feel overwhelming to say, oh my gosh, I didn't realize how much I was missing and how much more there is to observe. But let's focus on that keyword, observe. You need to start observing these things because everybody started when it comes to reading body language and effective communication. We all started at ground zero. And then we just started observing and trying to get incrementally better every single time. So just start by paying attention. That's the start. And now when we think about this too, when we're thinking about the preparation it takes to come into the conversation, we're recognizing now that we can't script these things because we're going to have to consistently make these reads and micro adjustments based on what we're getting from the other side.

Oh, that's a thousand percent correct. And to the point of scripting how you think the negotiation is going to flow, you can initially do that, and people should, as they gather information about the entity with whom they will be negotiating. The more you know about that entity, the better you can position yourself and also reposition yourself throughout the negotiation. If by chance something occurs that you had planned for or did not plan for, because to the degree that you are prepared, you will more likely be able to reach the outcome that you're seeking from the negotiation. So let's talk about preparation, if you wish, and preparing for a negotiation, again, dependent upon to what degree it's worth it. I have actually had clients that have hired private investigators to gather additional information, gone through social media channels to position how you, the negotiator, wanted that entity to be perceived by the other parties that may have had a stake that were not necessarily at the negotiation table, such that they've placed that individual in a particular position before the negotiation even starts. And doing that again allows the plans that one can then implement to become more successful or not. So there's a lot that goes into the negotiation. And again, depending upon how valuable the outcome is to you, you should take painstaking efforts to initially figure out who it is you're negotiating with, what are their triggers, what triggers you might want to invoke in them to get them to do certain things, and how it is that you're going to get back on track per where you thought you'd be at any one point in time in the negotiation to make sure that you continue down the path you've set it for you.

Today we're really celebrating the third edition of your bestselling book, Difficult Conversations. Can you tell us about that?

Thank you for asking about it, because it's been a project that has been in process for a few years in fact, and it's probably a little bit overdue, so. So Difficult Conversations came out in 1999. We issued a second edition. The 10th anniversary edition came out in 2010, which just suggests we can't count. And for that edition, we didn't really touch the text. We just added 10 questions people ask about Difficult Conversations to the back. So that was about 60 pages of new content. And so now we're in 2024 and it was feeling like we were pretty overdue for an update, partly because it should reflect what we've learned since, partly because the examples, some of them were starting to be a bit dated or it had become clear over time which examples were getting pushback or weren't as clear as we wanted them to be. So for the third edition, we really took apart the whole book again and re examined every word. We rewrote certain chapters. So for those who are familiar with earlier editions, the framework and main messages remain stable. And although I advocated for us to flip the order of two of the chapters, the Blame to Contribution chapter and the Impact Intent chapter, I Actually teach it in the other order now. And I think it's a little easier to explain if you explain contribution first, like, what are we contributing to the problem? And then explain why did we do what we did? Like, why was it that we contributed to the problem in that way? So I teach it in that order now, although the book has it in the opposite order. And I advocated that we flip the chapters. My co authors successfully persuaded me mostly that that's just going to be a headache for people assigning the book, like if people have different versions of it. So anyway, and then the last thing I should probably say about the third edition is that we also really reexamined two kinds of things. One is, what are the limits to this approach? Like, when doesn't it make sense to listen to someone else and understand work? To understand their perspective, perhaps? And then the second was that we spent six months pretty intensively working trying to figure out what we think about power and the role of power in difficult conversations. So we totally rewrote chap questions. I think it's 4 and 5 at the back of the book, which are all about power. And we probably wrote, you know, 300 pages worth for the 10 pages that made it into the book as we tried to figure out what we thought. So that's a little bit of a walking tour through the third edition.

Incredible. Okay. There's so much to explore here. And I think for me, one of the most fascinating things is the fact that this was. Was really a groundbreaking piece of literature when it came out. And to see that we have stuck to it and then continued to hone it and change it and tweak it, that's exciting for me because it shows a lot of depth and nuance, but still within the same parameters of the initial book. And so that gives us a lot of room for exploration. And since you spoke about blame versus contribution, I think we should just go ahead and start there because that can. Just understanding that concept alone before even getting into the skills can completely change relationships and interactions. So can you give us a bit of background there?

Yeah, you bet. Well, so probably one thing I should say is that one of the key insights that we had while working on the book was that in order to understand a difficult conversation, you've got to look at what people are really thinking and feeling, not just what they're saying, particularly in polite cultures and across cultures. Right. And then second, so that we call that our internal voice, which we all have. Second, that if you look at people's internal voices, when we're in conflict with each other or disagree with each other, frustrated with each other. What we're thinking and feeling is very predictable. And that we tend to be preoccupied with the same kinds of things. So it doesn't matter who you're talking to, like your personal life or your professional life or what you're talking about. Topically, the same kinds of things show up in our internal voices. And one of those things, as we think about our story of what happened, what has happened, what is happening, what we think should happen, is blame. When we're in conflict, we all naturally want to know whose fault it is that we are having this problem. And so blame is a feature either. Implicitly, we don't quite say it, but it's quite clear that I think that you are the problem, not me. Or sometimes explicitly, like, look, you screwed this up and you're the one who needs to fix it.

And.

And it's not always. It's often pointed at the other person, but it's not always pointed at the other person. It's not actually easier if we feel like this is all our fault and we feel guilty for the problem. So the usual advice, I think, around blame is, well, gosh, blame usually isn't helpful, right? It chills conversation. It makes people defensive. In organizations, if you've ever lived in what you would describe as a blaming culture, it means it's really hard on relationships and trust. Like, do I trust you're not going to throw me under the bus if this doesn't work? It means people are reluctant to take risks. It also, like, people spend so much time trying to avoid the blame and talk about whose fault it is rather than just fixing the problem. So it's a huge drain on morale and productivity. So great. We all, we all would agree with that. From experience, the usual advice is, okay, just don't blame people. And, you know, that seems like good advice, but the problem is that it's still in our internal voices. So we end up having these crazy conversations where it's like, well, I'm not saying this is anybody's fault, but if you could not screw that up next time, that'd be helpful. So nobody's really fooled. So anyway, what do you do instead? I think that the key is, rather than trying to sidestep blame, to channel that energy into something more constructive. And. And that's what we refer to in the book as joint contribution. Assuming it's not just either your fault or my fault or we'll agree to blame somebody not in the room, it's those guys fault. They're the ones who dropped the ball. But instead to assume almost every problem has been produced by things that each of us did or didn't do. And so it's, we each contributed to where we are today. Even if my contribution is, you know, I could kind of see this coming, and I probably should have dealt with it earlier, but I was just too busy. So it's not necessarily did something wrong. The fact that I have avoided this or not addressed it until now doesn't mean I did something wrong, but it is part of why it has festered for a while, and now it's worse than it was last week or last month. And that if we can shift our mindset just to understanding, boy, what did we each contribute to where we're at today? That's the thing that actually tells us, well, what would we have to change if we want to not make the same mistake or be in the same place? Or what do we each need to change if we're going to actually improve the way we're handling this? And so it's aimed not at finger pointing and punishment, which is the underlying underpinnings of blame, but instead, assuming we each did things that may not be blameworthy, they might have been perfectly reasonable, but now looking back, we realize they didn't help and that the point of this conversation is to try to figure out how to fix it.

Oh, my goodness, this is. This is great. And what I love about this is how practical it is, number one, because we can recognize how we can tie the theory to practicality in a meaningful way in the conversation. And then what I realized is that a lot of times, not just in negotiation, but also in life, we get advice from people that essentially come down. Comes down to be less human. Because think about it.

Yeah.

So we're saying, hey, don't blame people, but the internal voice is still going to be blaming. And then that subconscious drive will direct the conversation in a way that will be trying to escape blame and still assign blame without seeming as if we're blaming.

But.

But what we're doing is we're recognizing, all right, this negotiation advice is going to go to humans. So let's embrace that humanity, recognize that we will still have this energy channeled in this direction. Now let's channel that energy in a productive way.

Yeah.

And I think in a way that has a purpose that we both buy and can sign on to. Because sometimes my purpose in having the conversation is like, I really need to confront you and let you know what you're screwing up because somebody needs to tell you that you're the problem or in what ways you're the problem. And that's not really a conversation you're going to be that interested in joining. So it's no wonder I'm predicting it's not going to go well, because I am actually. My purpose is not one that is likely to be successful. My purpose is to tell you off, tell you what's what and what's true or get you to change. And I. I'm actually not in control of any of those things. Only you are in control of those things. So I'm kind of setting myself up to fail. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And now let's say we have a listener who. This is new for them. And they say, all right, Sheila, I'm on board now. All right, I'm going to shift from blame to contribution. But the person who I'm talking to unfortunately hasn't read the book, and they haven't listened to this episode, and they are blaming me all the time. And so how do I change that dynamic when it seems like the other person doesn't want to play by the same rules?

Yeah, well, so. So the first thing I would say is it's clear that we both know some of the same people. And you're right to identify that the fact that I can't control the other person also means it feels really risky to take this whole contribution approach. And so counterintuitively, our advice is actually, if you can see what you have contributed to the problem, looking back, taking responsibility and owning your contribution to the problem early and often in the conversation is actually good advice. Why is it good advice? It's not without risk, just to be clear. But first of all, it's relatively rare that the other person is not clear on what you have contributed to the problem. Like, they. They actually have a list of things that you have contributed to the problem. And so it's not, in many cases, it's not that you're telling them something they don't already know. What you're telling them is. I actually also know that. Right. So I might start the conversation by saying, you know, I think we probably should have had this conversation a while ago, and I've just been a little bit distracted. So I just wanted to, you know, mention that I do think we're a little bit behind the eight ball, and I'm partly responsible for that, or, you know, I wish I had said something, you know, when I saw you, you know, at the conference last year, because I. I had a sense that this might be an issue, but I just didn't think to mention it to you. So whatever I'm doing, I'm naming. Hey, there's some things looking back that I wish I had done differently. The reason that that matters is that I am sending you a super clear signal that this is not a conversation about blame. I am inviting you to trust me. In the research. One of the fastest ways to create trust is to do what's called making a statement against interest, which I'm sure you know. So if I admit something or say something that it otherwise wouldn't be in my interest to share, I'm signaling that I'm being candid and truthful. And then the third is that the other big reliable dynamic in the research is reciprocity. If I attack you, you're going to attack me back. If I own my contribution, I'm making it at least a little more likely that you're going to be willing to own yours. And you may not take that invitation in the first round, but that doesn't have to be the end of the conversation. In other words, let's imagine I own my contribution and you say, well, I'm just relieved to hear you say that you think this is all your fault, because I would agree with that. And then I can say, look, I do have some things I wish I had done differently. I don't think I can fix this by myself. So if you're not willing to also look at some things that I think would have to change if we're going to go forward and fix this problem, I fear that we're going to be stuck. So I don't have to accept that you keep all the blame on me. And that actually gives me a way to mitigate that risk because I'm not agreeing with that.

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