Mastering Difficult Conversations and Negotiation with Kwame Christian: The Career Clarity Show With Lisa Lewis Miller

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership and lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Today on the podcast we are going to be talking about all things negotiation strategy and playing by your own rules when it comes to your career. I'm so excited about today's guest. We're going to be talking about making unique and interesting career pivots of your own, finding ways to extend your skills in tons of new cool directions and then we're going to talk about some of the things that you might be facing right now thinking about making a potential career change, considering how to make sure that you're optimizing your opportunity to be paid what you're worth thinking about considerations in the middle of a pandemic. We are going to be covering it all today in a juicy, fabulous episode. Let me tell you about today's guest. Kwame Christian is a best selling author and speaker and the Director of the American Negotiation Institute. She and a subject matter expert in the field of all things negotiation and conflict resolution. He is the host of the world's most popular negotiation podcast, Negotiate Anything and he is also a TEDx speaker doing finding Confidence in Conflict, which was the most popular TEDx talk on the topic of conflict in 2017. In addition to his role at A&I, he is working as counsel at Carlyle, Patchen and Murphy and he also serves as a Professor for Otterbein University's MBA program as well as the Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law. So in short, we are talking to one capable, qualified, awesome human today. So Kwame, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Lisa, thanks for having me.

It is a delight to get to have you on today to be Dropping some knowledge for folks about thinking about strategic career pathing, thinking about how to understand what you're worth and how to get what you're worth, especially in a crazy economy like this.

Definitely.

Now, I would love to start people with a little bit about you and your background and your bio, because obviously you have done a lot, you've accomplished a lot. But where does your career story begin? How do you end up as the person who runs a podcast and a business and also is working with multiple universities?

Yeah, it's a fun journey. Fun journey. And so I think really what it comes down to is psychology. That's where it all starts. And my desire to help people. And so once we have that understanding, everything else starts to make sense down the road. And so for me, I wanted to be a psychologist originally. Either psychology or psychiatry, either one. That was the idea. And then I started to get into politics, because I said, oh, well, if my goal is to help people, if I am able to understand policy and effect change through policy, then I can help more people. That just is more efficient. So let's do that. So I finished up with my psychology degree and then transitioned into law. So that's where the law degree comes from and the Master of Public Policy. But as I went through school and started to learn more about politics, I started to realize that's not the lifestyle I want to live. So I was that guy who graduated from law school, passed the bar exam, was getting sworn in by the Supreme Court, asking himself what he wanted to be when he grew up. And so that's really where I was and how I started my career. And finding that answer has been my goal. And right now, I'm very, very happy with where I am.

Well, let's connect a couple of those dots between getting sworn in and where you are today, because I think that there are probably a lot of people both in the world of being attorneys or having their JD who felt a similar way when they graduated, but probably a lot of people who have never thought about going to law school, but who have a similar passion around helping people and understanding the way that the brain ticks, who are trying to figure out, if not this, then what? So how did you go from being the person who was getting sworn in and also having a little bit of an existential career crisis to all the different ways that you serve and support people today.

Yeah, so when I was in law school, I discovered negotiation. It just fit in my schedule. So I took the class, and I was really excited about it because it was the first Time I saw psychology utilized in this type of way. And so I became obsessed with it. And so they had negotiation compet and my friend and I competed in it. And we won the competition at Ohio State, and that gave us the opportunity to represent the school at regionals in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition as well. And then we made it to the semifinals of the American Bar association competition in New Orleans. And so I was hooked after that. I said, no matter what I do, this needs to be a main part of it. Because I saw the psychology and for me, as a recovering people pleaser, recognizing that the ability to handle yourself in a difficult conversation is a skill, not a talent, that was life changing for me. So for me, I wanted to find a way to share that message because my motto is that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And so for me, if I can help people to make these difficult conversations a little bit easier, we're putting them in a position for them to live their best life.

I love that. Well, and I think that a lot of people who are listening will probably have a deep feeling of connection with being recovering people pleasers and trying to understand how to hold their ground and be powerful in difficult and tricky conversation. Well, let's dive into the mechanics of a difficult conversation because I think part of that fear of making a transition into something new comes from how on earth am I going to prove my value and prove my worth to a new employer that's potentially in a brand new industry. And so when you're working with somebody and teaching them about the fundamentals of negotiation and how to get what you're worth, and they're starting from a position of saying, I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know what my assets are, what I bring to the table. What's the way that you ease somebody into starting to strategize for a conversation like that?

Well, first we need to get clarity on the goal. I don't know, I feel like clarity is an important word for you, so let's go ahead with that. So we need to get clear on what the goal is. A strategy that I like to use is the five why technique. And so you just ask yourself why five times. Usually it goes from something that's kind of surface level and materialistic to something that's really deep and personal. Getting close to that kind of deep connection will help you to be a lot more assertive when it comes to the actual conversation. And then during the conversation, we're Asking for what we want very clearly. But there's a framework that we use that can make any difficult conversation easier. So this is a framework I use at work, at home, negotiating with opposing counsel, negotiating with my 4 year old. It's all the same. All the same. And I think the clarity, the simplicity is what people really like. And it's called the Compassionate Curiosity framework. So I mentioned that in my TED talk and my book, both with the title of Finding confidence in conflict. And so it's three steps. Number one, acknowledge and validate emotions. Step two, get curious with compassion. And step three, joint problem solving. And so that's really it because really with these difficult conversations, the biggest barrier you're going to have is emotion. How can you handle the emotions of the other side? And then it goes down to curiosity with a tone that is not going to be perceived as threatening. We're going to ask open ended questions to learn more about the situation and then we're going to work together to find a solution in the third step, which is joint problem solving.

Well, the emotional management piece is a huge factor and it's arguably the linchpin. That either means you're going to be able to do this successfully or it's going to go totally off the rails. But I almost feel like before we get into the compassionate curiosity framework that we've got to start with the emotional management of oneself and the emotional, almost agility, the emotional fitness training you need to go through to be in a position to be able to successfully execute on the framework.

Absolutely. And Liza, this is my favorite part of the framework because it was designed to not only help you to win the external negotiations, but also to win the internal negotiations. That's where people often don't start. They just, they choose not to do it. They don't recognize that that's a conversation they need to have with themselves. And so you can use it as an introspective process that helps to diminish the emotional barriers that you're feeling. So again, same three steps, but directed internally. Acknowledge and validate your own emotions. Get curious with compassion. Joint problem solving. So with the first step, we're just recognizing, okay, I feel afraid, I feel afraid. Well, what is causing this fear? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I think suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. All right, so I'm going to get dig deeply into it. Well, I'm afraid that if I ask, I might. They might take this poorly. Well, then what might happen? Well, I'm afraid that if they, if they take it poorly, then I might lose my position or I might lose favor with my boss, something like that. So we're figuring those things out and so then we can start to test those realities. Let's figure out what the worst possible thing is that could happen and do a thought experiment to see how bad it really is. Most of the time it's not as bad as we think it is. And then we move on to the next step, joint problem solving. This is where we're reconciling the differences between our heart and mind. What do I need emotionally to feel secure right now? What do I need substantively in order to accomplish my goals? And how can I blend these two things together so I have that clarity when I go into the actual conversation? And the thing is, a lot of times people don't do this internal work beforehand. So people say things to them and they don't. They don't know what to do or say because they haven't thought it through. And then it comes in, it turns into a really awkward conversation. Your. Your confidence diminishes and the conversation goes poorly.

I love that. And one of the things that I think about is when I see that nervousness and fear come up when somebody's considering a career change and sort starting to apply for new jobs in a new sector. One of the biggest things that will often come up when they engage in that kind of a curious process is that they'll recognize, I'm afraid somebody's going to think that I'm an imposter because I haven't done this work before. And if you get curious about that belief and start peeling away the layers, you will either find option number one. This person is incredibly talented and capable and actually has a lot of transferable capabilities and experiences that they just hadn't been consciously thinking about and consciously valuing. So actually they're going to be just fine. But we've helped them to surface some of the great argument points and talking points for why they're going to be a high value hire. Or option number two comes up when we dig into the imposter syndrome of actually, you've got a skill gap there and there's a capability that this organization is going to be needing from you that they may not necessarily be willing to train you from 0 to 100 on. So it may also reveal some opportunities to do a lot of the work that here at Career Clarity we talk about as part of the phase two of our process of test driving your potential future direction, which could be taking a class, doing a freelance project. You know, Kwame, like you were talking about going and doing trainings for free just to get the experience and to generate the interest to then be able to bridge whatever skill or capability gap there is to then again be ready to walk into one of those negotiation conversations and be confident and sure, grounded to your core that you can do the work and that you're worth what you're asking for.

Exactly. Yeah. And again, that's why the name of the book is Finding Confidence in Conflict. Because a lot of times we're giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. If you don't do the internal work, it doesn't matter if you know how to have the conversation because you're just not going to do it really well. And the imposter syndrome is real. That is a real thing. And I really like the fact that you added the substantive component to it because a lot of times people inappropriately just say, oh, it's all in your head. All in your head. Well, I mean, sometimes you just might not have the skill. You might actually be an imposter. Most of the time you're not. Most of the time it's just your brain playing games with you and you actually have what it takes to do what you need to do. But then sometimes it's okay to recognize I have a gap. And so I'll give an example. So I remember I was talking to a friend who was teaching a sports psychology class and he said, I don't know why they gave me this class because I know nothing about psychology. He teaches sports history. And so they're just like, oh, you could teach this too. And so he asked me about personality psychology and I was really surprised. I didn't know much about was the recognition of a bizarre kind of gap in my understanding of psychology. I said, that's very strange. I have a degree. I read books all the time. And yeah, Just, I'm not confident in my skills when it comes to personality because I just, for some reason, I haven't gone over that. And so this is what I did. Lisa, you'll love this. So this conversation happened in early February. And so then I was in talks with a company to do a negotiation training. And they're like, okay, what type of topic would you like us to cover? I said, I'd like to teach personality based persuasion. And so she said, oh, that is fantastic. We'll do this. And so it was scheduled for June. I'm like, well, there you, you go, Kwame. You got to figure this out. And so I started eating all of these books on personality based psychology, and now I have a deal with LinkedIn to do a course on leading and managing different personalities. That's a core competency now. But it was because I recognized that gap and I created a sense of urgency that forced me to get a deep level of understanding in the topic so then I could perform. But again, it was actually a real gap to I was legitimately an imposter there. Okay, let's figure that out. Now I can solve it and now we can move forward.

There are two things I love about that story thing. Number one is that when you created that time bound opportunity for yourself, you didn't come in doing something that's completely out of your wheelhouse. You used a foundation of the stuff you do know, persuasion, and then layered on a new layer to it. So it was not full throttle imposter syndrome. Right. You were not showing up in the ER with scrubs on pretending like you are a brain surgeon. This was just upping the ante on an area that you already had capability. But I love the knowing your own psychology piece of understanding that a really great way to learn this is to put yourself in a position where there's a deadline and where there's some pressure to make sure that it happens, and understanding how you perform and setting that up, because I'm sure something that you dive into a lot and got to read a ton about in your prep for this is that different personalities respond differently to pressure, deadlines, internal expectations versus external expectations. So hacking your own psychology well enough to know what kind of incentive structure is going to get your butt in gear is an awesome strategy to use.

Yeah, yeah. I'm very, very competitive and I hate being embarrassed. And that sparked both of those two things. So I said, kwame, you're going to have to go really deep in this. And so I understood that when I did that, I'D have a lot of time to consume a lot of materials. And since I was teaching at Ohio State in the law school, I would have an opportunity to beta test it at a really high level with a captive audience. And I got the feedback that I needed in order to tweet the presentation and do really well. People really enjoy it. And it's a key part of my online course. It's a key part of a lot of the presentations that I do now. And like I said, LinkedIn, the course is already produced, but Covid had other ideas, so we need to record it at a later date. But it's really fun, I think. I think if you can recognize those gaps, they're very clear ways to improve. And you have to, like you said, you have to know yourself and what works for you and then just be really aggressive in shoring up those potential issues.

And what that also does is it gives you a real quick litmus test of, are you actually interested in this? Do you actually care enough to do the work, to shore that up, to become an expert, to double down on it? Because if you don't, if you're not even interested in learning it in a somewhat abstract environment, why on earth would you think that you're going to enjoy doing that as your full time, 9 to 5 job?

Exactly. And also think about this too. I think a lot of times people have an understanding of the word expertise and expert that is a little bit limiting. And so for me, expertise is relative. That's it. So if I know slightly more than you, then relative to you, I'm an expert. And so for instance, my son, he's four, he's been alive for a while, but I wouldn't compare him. I wouldn't say he's like an expert runner or walker, but to a baby, he is an expert. And so he could competently teach a baby how to walk. The baby would look up and Kai and say, wow, you can walk. That's incredible. And so Kai would be a legitimate expert. Now, Kai is not going to then teach Usain Bold how to run. That would be inappropriate. And so you have to recognize what it takes to be that expert that your company needs. You don't need to be like a scholar who's teaching it at the highest, highest level. That might not be what's necessary. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't shoot for that level of expertise, but recognize that what you have is enough. That's really what we're going for. Are you good enough to do it then? You can do it.

So let me ask you this. If somebody is listening to this and they are on the cusp of wanting to make a career change and they feel like they've got the capabilities, but there's just, there's some kind of inner confidence hurdle of I feel like my skills are transferable and valuable and they would absolutely help at this organization, but I'm afraid that they won't feel the same way and that I'll get low balled. What are some of the things that you tell somebody who's trying to prepare to make sure that they are going to receive at least an initial offer that's as competitive as possible and then put themselves in a position to be able to negotiate it up to something even better?

Yeah. So first thing you need to do is buy the book, pre order the book by Lisa Lewis. So you need to get that book. All right. So that's the first thing. If that doesn't work, you could get my book, Finding Confidence in conflict. The first 50 to 60% is all about confidence. And let's say you don't want to do either of those things or you want something else. What I would suggest doing is reaching out to a friend that you know love and trust and ask them to tell you what you're good at. Talk to a colleague at work, ask them to tell you what you're good at. Sometimes we are too close to ourself and we can't see how good we really are. And then we get that from other people and then we say, oh, wow, okay, yeah, I forgot about that win. It's really funny. People forget about wins. I have a friend that has an app called Pep Talkher and it's really just a digital brag box. As you get these wins, you go and you put in your wins so you don't forget. Because she teaches women how to negotiate effectively, Maggie Palmer, she's going to be a guest on the Negotiate Anything podcast coming up shortly. And so she says, yeah, make sure you write down your wins. And so it puts you in a better mindset when you're going into those negotiations. The thing is, when it comes to confidence, confidence has two main impacts. So first, it is an emotion, a feeling that leads you to take committed action. That's number one. And so number two, people see that confidence and it changes the way that the world responds to you. And so when it comes to negotiation, people are going to respond differently. If you ask for what you deserve confidently versus if you ask for what you deserve tepidly so if you are tepid in the way that you ask, then people see that and they say, you know what? I don't. Yeah, I'm going to push you. I'm going to push you. Yeah, she seems like she's pushable, and so then they will push you. But if you say it with confidence, then they say, yeah, I'm not going to. Yeah, she seems pretty. Pretty secure in this. And so what's interesting is that your level of confidence oftentimes dictates the amount of resistance you get when you're making requests. And if you leave this interview, this podcast, interview the listeners listening to this and you just feel more confident. Let's say you don't get any more skills or expertise or anything like that, or you just are more confident. You're going to be more successful in your negotiations, too. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.