Mastering Difficult Conversations: David Dye's Tips on Workplace Conflict

Where that need for status in order to be safe and taken care of feels like a real thing. And so you get in some like higher education has a reputation for being hyper political. It has that reputation. Has it for a reason. Why? Because the bowl in which status exists, in which the politics are played are so it's such a small bowl that the perceived I'm better than you or you're better than me or my value here, all of that. If you play that game, there's very little to work with and so everything gets this hyper amount of meaning that isn't real.

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David, thanks for joining us today.

It is absolutely my pleasure to be here.

Yes, it is our pleasure to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I am the president of let's Grow Leaders. We're a human centered leadership development firm, work with leaders, managers around the world with very practical human centered leadership management skills. And we also do team collaboration, helping teams be their absolute best within organization, organizational culture. And so that's a number of new things related to that recently, but so that's the quick and dirty of what we do. But I'm an author. I've written six different books, some of those in combination with my partner in life and work and writing, Karen Hurt, and then some of those are solo efforts as well. So I love writing and helping people to be their best self.

Incredible. I'm excited for this interview, David, and we talked about this before so listeners will let you in on a little bit of behind the scenes. I spoke with Karen earlier today on the podcast and she was exceptional. So there's a high bar, David, that you need to Reach today. So I hope you're bringing your A game.

Always bring the A game, but Karen's got a different game, so they're complimentary games.

Absolutely. Well, let's start now talking about the book itself. Let's start off with just the general thesis of the book, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.

Yeah, absolutely. So the book's powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict. And if there's a straightforward thesis, it's have the conversation. That's going to be my first statement. That's going to be my last statement is. And I'm going to say that from my own career, my own life experience, because I started out my career very much somebody who didn't have the conversation. I was either shy, worried about the consequences, told all these stories in my head about what people in power or colleagues. Colleagues or everything else would do or say or anything else until I'd get super frustrated and then finally pop my cork and say something. And sometimes that went well and sometimes it didn't. But inevitably I learned the value of saying something. And so how to do that. Well, it's a journey I think we're all on. And so that's what this book is all about, is how to have that conversation. Because conflict at work, it's inevitable. We're not going to avoid it. The question is, is it going to be destructive or is it going to be collaborative and productive and help us to get to a better place?

I love the fact that we started with this as the thesis, have the conversation. Because it's really empowering for the listeners to hear. And for me, too, because I'm a recovering people pleaser and, you know, this is part of my journey here. And to hear somebody of your caliber with your level of success talking about how you struggled with this in the past, I think that's really empowering because it shows that we can grow in this and we're still growing in. I think when people listen to this, they'll say, okay, have the conversation. Yes, I agree. But I think it might be helpful to go a little bit deeper here and outline some of the most frequent reasons for not having the conversation that you've heard in your research.

Yeah, again, I'm going to start with my own life experience. So I remember very early on in my career, maybe a year and a half in 18 months in our CEO was having this marketing event and I was leading a small team, two or three people, and he needed our team's participation in this thing.

We.

But I didn't like it. I felt like the way he was going about it, what he was presenting to the people attending the event, potential partners and funders, all this kind of thing, I felt like it lacked integrity. I didn't like it. And I didn't have any of these phrases, and I didn't say anything because, you know, CEO, right. All the stories in my head about what would happen, and I didn't sleep. Three days, three nights. I was so frustrated, just stewing and stirring, like, how can he be there? Doesn't he understand? And all that kind of stuff. Like, how can he be this way? And finally, after three days of that, I just was so frustrated that I did. I popped my cork. I was like, I can't be a part of this. I think this lacks integrity. I don't like this. I didn't tell him he needed to change it, but I tried to withdraw. And what do you think he said next?

So many options. I think the fear monster in your head and in my head might have been like, oh, you're fired. Get out of here. But I think oftentimes the reality is so much more innocuous. Like, I appreciate this feedback. I wasn't feeling good about this either.

So the. Yeah, the fear monster, as you call it, for sure, was in my head going, well, okay, I'm. I was ready to pack my things, but that's not what happened. What he actually said was, david, I don't. I disagree. I don't see it that way at all. I'm. My integrity is fine, and I don't want you to violate yours. So. And this is a great learning moment for me because I had not thought about this. He said, how can we do this in a way that you can feel good about? Wow, like, what a question. And there was an easy answer as soon as I took two seconds to think about it. Instead of being mad and angry, right? There was a very easy thing that I could have come to the table with to begin with. Hey, I'm not feeling comfortable about this. What if we were to do this? I think that would meet that. I didn't approach it that way. Now, years later, I'm like, that's the way to do it. But what I learned from him was, was how important it is to say something. And so I didn't say it elegantly. I didn't say it well, but I said it eventually out of frustration. And in doing that, it gave him a chance to do something different, to say something different, to ask me and teach me. And so if I had stayed silent in that moment. My silence ultimately was selfish because I wasn't giving him a chance to do anything different. And so here I am mad at my story of him as opposed to the actual reality. And so that, you know, when we talk about. To answer your direct question, why do we stay silent? Why don't we speak up? So often it's because we fear damaging a relationship. We fear losing our status. You know, people are status seeking creatures, so we don't want to lose our status. And then there are the consequences that come with those things. If I damage that relationship or lose enough status, I'm out and my livelihood might be at stake, or my ability to feed my children or what have you. So we get all these stories that all combines and so it's this place of fear that paralyzes us and keeps us from having what could be really productive, cool conversations if we have the tools.

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Elevate, negotiate and succeed. This is brilliant. I love that story because it shows us that conflict is an opportunity. And when you think about it, a lot of times going into these situations, we think about it in terms of a binary type of situation. It's your way versus my way. But negotiation gives us a third way, which is our way where we can collaborate and work through it. And those fears that you outlined, I think most people can relate to them in so many ways. Damaging relationships, I think that's one that people can articulate. They can relate to that and they've actually explicitly felt that fear. And then the risks, I think about cascading risks. It's not just this one thing could happen, but it's all of these other things that can happen. But there's one thing that you said that I really want to explore more and I wish we explored this more in negotiation and conflict resolution. And it is the fear of loss of status. Because when it comes to status, and I'll take a shot at my at a Definition. And you correct me where I'm wrong because I'm sure I'm off. It's the perception of rank relative to other people in a social environment. And if we are in a situation where our status is in jeopardy, that's one of the unspoken human needs that we have. And losing status can feel almost like losing a part of yourself. And so can you go deeper in not just how the fear of loss of status, but status in general plays into conflict.

That is a deep subject. I think that the first thing you said is that we experience it as a real harm is true. And a lot of that has to do with our upbringing, our biology, our evolutionarily. I just making up words now but like our status over the years, over time of human existence, our rank relative to others within a social group. Like you just. I love your definition. Determined how much food we're going to get, how much economic well being we're going to have. All of those kinds of things or let's go back to middle school, how much we're going to get harassed and berated by the other kids who, you know, kids are horrible to one another. It seems to be universal thing. So you look at all of that where that need for status in order to be safe and taken care of feels like a real thing. And so you get in some. Like higher education has a reputation for being hyper political. It has that reputation. Has it for a reason. Why? Because the bowl in which status exists, in which the politics are played are. So it's such a small bowl that the perceived I'm better than you or you're better than me or my value here, all of that, if you play that game, there's very little to work with. And so everything gets this hyper amount of meaning that isn't real. And so being able to divorce ourself, to distance ourself, to separate ourself from some of that, that just isn't real. And that it's just, it's just a game that you get to choose whether you play it or not, that it's not your actual value, your actual worth. Like the first sale is to yourself. You know, every salesperson you got, you know, has that conversation like if you don't believe in the product, no one else can believe in the product. And so that's true for all of us too. So for the way to help address that is your confidence has to be in yourself and what you do know and that you are growing. And if you don't know it today, you can learn it and you'll, you'll learn it and you'll do it tomorrow. That allows us to separate from this whole status game and say, no, we're all in progress. You said it earlier. We're all growing. Listen, Kwame, I'm. I'm using some of the phrases in this book right now in my active life, and I am trying to get better at them. That's how in process I am. And I wrote the freaking book, right? Like, so I'm trying to use those things, too. We're all in process. We're all growing. And if we think we're not, then we're going to be stuck. All we have left is to compete on status.

This is so good because there are the fears that are, let's say, substantiated, and then there are the fears that are perceived, right? So that fear of a loss of status, who knows, maybe it could be real. But the thing is, if we have the conversation, we can navigate the conversation in a way that mitigates that risk, Right? So we're still in control.

So, yes, you can have the conversation exactly in a way that mitigates that risk. Because when you do it well, and if I had, like, for instance, if I had that conversation with that CEO to do over, when you do it well, using some of the phrases we're talking about, you're building connection to the person, you're building connection to what's important to them. You're coming across as a strategic partner. You're asking questions to help solve for their needs as well as your own. And who doesn't need more of that in life? The only time you're going to have a. And I'm going to put this in quotes, a negative outcome from that conversation is when you have the conversation and you realize, fully realize, because the other person has been direct with you and told you, these are my values. This is what I believe in. This is what I want. And you're sitting there going, oh, well, now I know, because those are not my values, and that is not what I want. I don't want to work for this kind of organization. That's going to happen sometimes. But I've had the conversation, and now I know. Now I'm not responding to the fear monster. Now I'm not responding to the voices in my head. Now I'm not responding to my stories about the other person. Anything else. Now I have data. And so even though that's in quotes, and I put it in quotes, negative, I put it in quotes because I still think That's a positive outcome. Now I've got real data that I can make an honest decision from, as opposed to running scared and reacting to shadows.

Agreed. And when you think about it, negotiation is a problem solving tool and negotiation is a part of the decision making process. And as we go through these difficult conversations, we are going to connect, we're going to be led with curiosity, we're going to learn through this process. And then through that process, I might gather information that I need to recognize that this is not the right relationship or the right deal for me, which is ultimately a win. Because otherwise you run into this situation where you find yourself in a deal, in an organization or in a relationship that you never should have been in, and you just keep on moving forward on this path of inevitability toward an ultimate fall, which is much harder of a fall because you will know at that time. You know what? I should have had that conversation months or years ago and I would have saved myself so much time and heartache.

So much time and heartache. And we stave those off sometimes because we worry about rejection. We worry about the finding out that that story isn't what we would have hoped. And as long as we don't have it, then we leave the possibility. Well, maybe it is, but that's a fool's game. It doesn't work.

Absolutely. No, no, no. This is, this is great. And now, David, I told you I was going to keep you on your toes. All right, I told you I was going to keep you on your toes. Now, I would label you even though you are a leadership expert, I would also label you as a conflict resolution expert. And you are also co authoring with your wife, who is a leadership expert. And I will label her as a conflict resolution expert. You wrote a book together that have powerful phrases for conflict resolution. When you two are in conflict, how does that go?

Sometimes well. And sometimes we are still in progress.

That's a great answer.

And that's like so. And I want to take you back to even before we were writing the book and we opened in the introduction talking about this is. So our publisher, HarperCollins leadership came to us and we written previous books with them. They came to us and said, hey guys, we see this need in the market. This is a really current topic. Our catalog really could use this book and we would like to ask you to write it because you're super practical. You're out there, you're with all your clients. We know that it will be current, we know it'll be topical. And we know it'll be practical. And we said, well, that is an honor. Thank you so much. It's always nice when your publisher says, hey, they pitch you the book instead of the other way around. And then we had to take a hard look at ourselves because if you're going to put it out there, we're writing a book on dealing with workplace conflict and we're a husband and wife team who own our company together. And so you've got all of that. You know, we talk about conflict cocktails in the book, like these mixes of different circumstances that can create conflict. That's certainly one. And so how do you do all that? And there are some things that we have done very well, I think, in our relationship. And one of those like that I would put out there is that one. We do handle things quickly. We try not to let things set because you let it set, it gets bigger, resentments build up, you know, all that kind of thing. But we are very different people. And so your listeners, if they don't listen to Karen's interview, listen to mine. You can tell just by our personalities that we're different, we approach things differently. Words mean different things to us, just like they do for you and your co workers or your spouse and partner or friends. And so you gotta navigate all that. That's just part of life. So there are times. And when I say that I'm. I mentioned earlier, I'm in process. Like, one of the things that I am really trying to incorporate in my conflict game is the phrase from our curiosity section. You were mentioning the four dimensions earlier. Connection, clarity, curiosity, and commitment from curiosity. I'm curious how this looks from your perspective. That is an incredibly powerful question to ask. It's one of our greatest of all time goat powerful phrases. And it is for a reason. Because when you ask that, it inherently moves you out of your amygdala, all the fired up, all the to the frontal part of your brain and furious curious don't coexist. And so curiosity, like, if I'm being curious, it's at least going to dampen down some of my upset for a minute. And then I start learning what does it look like from the other person's perspective? And guaranteed it doesn't look anything like it does from my perspective. How could it. Different experience, different. Different point of view, different personality, different. Different everything. So to learn that and then be able to start crafting a solution together and get that into the mix. Like for me, when I say not as good as I'd like to I'm thinking about a conversation we just had within the last 48 hours. I'm like, I could have done better at using that phrase. I want to next time. So, you know, okay, that's part of the growth process. What can I do better next time? And so, listener, you're talking about your workplace conflict. You got to start somewhere. So pick one of the goats. Pick one of the phrases. Start there. As I said, I'm going to lead with have the conversation. So you have the conversation, and then you're going to learn something from it, and then you'll get better at next time. And then you can go, okay, what might I do next time? Oh, I'm going to try to do this next time. All right? And let me be ready to do that the next time I get into one of those situations. And now we're growing.

I appreciate this. I appreciate the transparency here, too, because essentially what you've done here is you've given the listeners permission to try. And we're not going to learn and get better unless we're willing to take these opportunities to lean into difficult conversations. And we would have been doing the listeners a disservice if we said, oh, it's easy all the time. I just use the phrases that our marriage is perfect. But you didn't say that because it wouldn't be true. But the phrases put us in a position where you can actually progress and you can make things better. And then because of this knowledge that you have, you can reflect and look back and see how you can improve the next time. Because even for me, after 1100 episodes, I learned something new in every single, single episode. When it comes to difficult conversations and conflict resolution, there is no limit to how good you can get at this. And if you start to adopt that learner's mentality and you say that this is an opportunity to solve problems, create connection, and also learn through this process, then you start to realize, why wouldn't I have the conversation? There's so much opportunity on the other side.

There's so much opportunity. And some of this, I think, is just, you know, we're all in process. And when I think back over my life up to this point, I invested a lot of my early leadership and early relational capital in clarity, which is an important dimension. And having that shared agreement, a shared understanding of what success looks like, and getting good commitment around what all those things are. But that's only half of the game. The other half of the game is this curiosity bit. And so some listeners, you might be listening Going, no, I've been, I've been seeking that curiosity for forever. And it may be the clarity part that you need to make more investment in. In our previous book Courageous Cultures, we say regard to this clarity curiosity dance. We say start where you aren't. So whichever one is your strength that you're already like, yeah, I wake up and I do that. All right. How can you start incorporating some of the other if you tend to like to leave things super loose and amorphous that has served you? It's like, okay, where can you start investing in some clarity? And if you're like super clear, this is X, Y, Z, boom, boom, boom. Where can you start investing in some curiosity? And, and either way, it's going to help you.

I love this, David. This has been exceptional. I had high, high expectations and you have surpassed them, my friend. This is great. I really appreciate you coming on the show. And before you go, please let listeners know about the book and also about your podcast and how they can work with you.

Oh, for sure. So well taking them in order. So the book is powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict. What to say next to de stress the workday Build collaboration, build and calm difficult customers. 300 plus powerful phrases, very practical specific things you can specific words you can use in those contexts. You can find out more about powerful phrases@conflicityphrases.com and we've got a 30 plus page free guide that you can take your team or and you don't have to be the team leader, you can take somebody else. You can do it together in a book group. Take people through the conversations and explore this on your own and self. Pace it and do it yourself. So that's totally free. It's all there for you. My podcast is called leadership without losing your soul and so very practical human centered leadership. So if you're a manager leader at any level and you want some of those practical human centered leadership tools. Don't have 1100 episodes Kwame. That's amazing. I am just over two, I'm a quarter of a century so I'm at 250 something, 260 something somewhere in there. But so yeah, love to listeners who that's of interest and you can find that at leadership without losing your soul.com and then and how to work with us is let's growleaders.com and so there are multiple ways to work with us from the team collaboration work that we were talking about earlier with we have this new product coming out called the Synergy Stack. I'm sure Karen mentioned that and long term leadership development oriented towards changing the culture. So if you're listening and you want to change your culture through your leadership development, we'd love to talk with you.

Amazing. David, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Oh, it's been my pleasure, Kwame. I so appreciate the conversation. All that you are doing to create change in the world. Thank you.

Appreciate it. Wait, wait wait wait, wait.

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