Mastering Negotiation: Lessons from Kirk Kinnell’s Expert Strategies

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Kirk, thanks for joining us. My friend.

Thank you very much for inviting me onto your show. It's my pleasure to be here and have an interesting conversation with you.

It's our pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name's Kirk Kinnell. I am the director of a negotiation firm called Negotiated Resolutions limited. We are based here in Scotland, but of course we travel the world to assist. We train companies, we coach them during negotiations, and we also negotiate on their behalf. And we are all former law enforcement hostage crisis negotiators. I have three people on my team here from Scotland, and of course I've got one of my best friends and colleagues from ex FBI over in the States. And it's something that of course, when we are online, we share collectively. So I've been in this business for the last five years having transferred the skills from the world of hostage negotiation, and I'm enjoying the men and challenges that it brings and I'm looking forward to many more in the future. In the last three or four years of my service, I spent across in the usa, where I was the lead advisor to US Law enforcement on conflict resolution. And that had come about from the Black Lives Matter movement. And a group of people in the Police Executive Research Forum, led by Chuck Wexler in Washington, they commissioned me to come across and help them design some training for de escalation of conflict for US law enforcement because of the unique position that I had as head of armed policing and hostage negotiation in Scotland, where both portfolios, the portfolio of hostage negotiation and armed policing, complemented each other and were not at odds with each other. And I think even just in conversation with you, I mean, even thinking about recent events across the world where perhaps our armed response officers, if they had the skills of hostage negotiators, then of course we could resolve conflict a lot easier, a lot smoother. But also I'm finding that those skills in the corporate world are really beneficial because for the most part, once people feel heard and understood, they're open to finding successful conclusion. Right. A negotiated resolution, if you like.

Absolutely. I like how you did that. Negotiated resolution. This is great. And listeners, I hope you're appreciating the diverse background that Kirk brings and like the richness of his experience, because this is really unique. I can't think of anybody who has that combination where you have hostage negotiation expertise and you have the experience of being an armed policeman. But then now you have five years as a consultant, not just doing negotiation trainings in the corporate world, but also offering support, assisting them in their negotiations and sometimes negotiating on their behalf. And I think you are the only person that I know who has served in an official capacity in law enforcement in different continents. That's really unique. And so when you think about that diversity of background that you bring and the breadth of experience that you bring, what does that change in your perspective when it comes to the conflicts that you resolve?

When I think about that, I think about all of the things that have helped shape me over the years. Seeing things in different continents, different environments, and you always, each time you go, you always learn something new. So the things that you've learned, you bring to a new environment and realize that it doesn't quite fit the mold that you had before. So you have to adapt. So for me, it's about always learning to adapt to new and challenging environments. But I think the one thing that I've probably learned over the years is that you never have all of the answers. Right. So even as part of negotiated resolutions, one of the main elements in the ethos of the company, it's about humility but it's also about being part of a team. And usually within a team, lots of people have many different perspectives. And so really it's about, and you would expect to hear this from a hostage negotiator, it's about listening to other people, helping to understand their perspective and why they have that perspective, and then using that to inform you and inform your judgment one before you come to conclusions, but absolutely before you make decisions. So for me, it's always about going with, for me, vast area of experience in the law enforcement world, the last five years in the corporate world, but always having that refreshing mentality where I tell myself, I'm new to this, I'm a baby. Just keep learning, right? Just keep listening to other people. Have the humility that makes you realize that you, you don't know all, you can't possibly know all. Rely on your team and engage people who will, from country to country, culture to culture, just give you something that you've never perceived before. You've maybe read about it in a book. You know, we understand different cultures across the world. We, we know the things that we've picked up in TV and in books. But actually, when you go there and you get a feel for it and you can take the pulse of the situation, for me, it's always about the ability to adapt. Once you have that, you know, don't go with that fixed mindset. Always have a plan, but always have.

A plan B. I love everything that you said because even though you have this incredible background, you still are able to approach this with humility. And all great negotiators have that humility to be able to accept the fact that other people have valid opinions and perspectives and their voice matters. And that gives you the ability to be genuinely curious, listen and to learn. And you touched on something that is something that is really hard to grasp. And I want to focus on that word adapt, the ability to adapt. So great negotiators are fluid, they can flow. But in a negotiation course, it's kind of hard to teach. Hey, just flow in the moment, right? So for you, as you've been cultivating that ability to adapt to different circumstances, how did you go about doing that?

Well, listen, for me, the secret to adapting, and this is going to sound a little bit counterintuitive, it's about anticipation, right? So for me, anticipation is about recognizing that in most environments there will be predictable dialogue, predictable series of events. So planning and preparation is the key, right? So planning and preparation, methodical, you know that predictable for every predictable thing that may be said to you, you should have at least five predictable responses. So planning and preparation is everything to make sure that I go there with as much forethought and insight as I possibly can. But with anticipation, we know that that cannot be the whole story. So I have to have the mental agility and flexibility to adapt from that series of solutions that I might have in my head to recognize that the actual solution for it to be sustainable has to actually be relevant to the other person's head, not my head. So I can have a great solution. And I've got many experiences where, you know, the solution very often comes from the counterpart. In fact, usually for it to be successful, it must come from them because then it can be sustainable. So we build into all of that preparation and anticipation with all of that research that's gone in to say, okay, you have all of that information now you should listen and use those listening skills that hostage negotiators use. Don't be so enthusiastic to talk and tell everyone, tell everyone how clever you are. Just shut up and listen. Right? And shut up and listen. And usually the solution presents itself. And if the solution presents itself from the mouth of your counterpart, then that makes agreements, conclusions, solutions all the more sustainable and reliable. So for me, that adaptability is just about. Listen to your counterpart and then be nimble.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better negotiations? Difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Oh, this is so good, Kirk. Because I think again, this goes back to what you were talking about with the humility, because if you are a little bit arrogant, you want to own the outcome. So I came up with this solution. I saw problem. It's my magical solution. I win, right? Intellectually, Right. But you're recognizing that if you, if you ask questions and you listen and you show them that respect, then you can create an environment where the solution almost comes about organically. And you're right. If it comes from them, it's almost. It increases in legitimacy in their eyes. Which makes the solution a lot stickier because they're more likely to agree to something that they proposed. And when it comes to adaptability, I think a lot of people would have been surprised with your answer where you said, preparation is what allows you to adapt. And as you were giving your response, as it was almost. It's. It was really humbling for me, too, because I pride myself on preparation. I take a lot of time to prepare, but now I'm recognizing when it comes to those predictable elements of the conversation, I'm not writing out those options where, okay, they could say this or that or the other. And so the preparation is what gives you the ability to adapt in the moment. I think that's really, really helpful.

I mean, I think it's also important to recognize teamwork in this, right? No, no one negotiator or any person, even if they claim they're at the top of the game, has all of the answers. And, you know, we talk about negotiators having humility. In the world of law enforcement, One of the first things I remember from being a young man was. Was being told when I was being trained as a hostage negotiator was, everyone, leave your ego at the door. Right? We recognize the ego is a good thing, right? We recognize that ambition would not be possible without some ego. So that drive and ambition that you have to succeed, let's just harness that ego. But the minute your ego starts to override your judgment and you start to tell yourself that you're wonderful and you're successful and that you have the answers, right? The most dangerous time and negotiation is when you think you're winning. So in terms of negotiators, the best negotiators in the world never tell the world they're the best negotiators. They're always talking about how they're learning, how they're part of a team. And for me, that's the ones that inspire me. The ones that have that humility, that voice in their head that says, listen to other people. So for me, the heart of negotiation is the listening skill. It really is the. For me, it's the most important skill we can have. Of course, we always want to find leverage and find a peaceful resolution or an acceptable resolution. But for me, that comes from listening, right? That's where. For me, I've been focusing on that for the last 15, 20 years, where I just. I learned over the years that the best listeners find the solutions early, Right? Even in the world of hostage negotiation, the average siege would be 2, 4 6, 8 hours. And the best negotiators found a conclusion between 2 and 4. And those that didn't listen could be 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 hours at a siege. And so what is it that the best people are doing? Right, of course we want to replicate that, but it's that humility, it's the ability to listen and it's the ability to capture the essence of what the other person sees, hears and feels. And generally we can capture that. We might describe it as empathy. Right. But it's more than that. It's more than just being able to recognize and articulate their emotions in the context of their emotion. It's about sometimes you can connect with people without even having to speak very much to them, without even there being a communication, because it might be underpinned by trust. Even just understanding, understanding the context of the situation that they're in and giving them some room might be enough. So we don't always have to be clever and tell the world how clever we are and how quick we are to assess situations and understand people. Sometimes just using that phrase and shut up and listen. Right? Just we tell our teams shut up and listen. And the clues will present themselves and the solutions will present themselves 100%.

And I love the fact that you brought back humility there because great listeners are humble because they know that they don't have all the answers. If you feel like you have all the answers, then you really can't be a good listener.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think one of the things that helped shape that mindset for me in the world of hostage negotiation, where you're part of a team for 25 years, I was a hostage negotiator and I went to the edge of the bridge, to the siege 2, 300 times. At no point ever did I win. At no point ever was I the smart guy, the intelligent guy, or just helping people out of situations. And it wasn't a win lose mindset. So that mindset has affected for me in the corporate world, of course, we don't go to a corporate world with a view to losing a negotiation, but actually helping the others find a solution which is good to them. Building sustainable relationships, repeat business, profit. We don't have to kill the opposition. In fact, we have to keep them alive because we need them to do business next year. We need them to survive, we need them to thrive. And for me, all of those skills is just the same as what I've been doing for 25, 30 years, is that everyone can win. And I know we talk about win. Win doesn't really exist. Right. And I know that that's controversial, but for me, there's always a way where we can help other people survive and thrive and we can still get what we need and they can get what they need. And it's not always the same thing.

Oh, this is good. Let's go deeper into this. Because I think this is really important for us to remember in the corporate world too, because there are some times, just like you said, we need them to survive. If, for example, you're a procurement team and you have a supplier and it's a small business trying to get started, they might willingly enter into a bad deal in order to get the business. You might make a deal that is so good that you put them out of business and they can't recover. And now you're in a position where you don't have a supplier at a critical time that you didn't have, you didn't see coming. You didn't see that loss coming. And so let's go deeper into the value of genuinely caring enough about the other side to actually want to help them to succeed.

Well, you know, for. And it's easy for me, for 25, 30 years, I never had the balance of power in my favor, not a single time. So I came from a disadvantaged position. Every time I went to the bridge, the man or woman who could jump had all of the power. I had nothing. By the end of the siege, I had all of the power. And they came over to me. And all of the armed sieges that I was at, the guy with the gun, the guy with the knife, that person has got all of the power. Recognize that. And you start with no power. And then, of course, when I move into the corporate world, it's normal for me to represent, let's just say the little guy. Sometimes we represent the big corporates and. And they are the dominant power, but usually they're in a position where they perceive disadvantage. So that's normal operating procedure for me. Disadvantage position. Let's look at the areas where we can find and make them behave reasonably towards us. And sometimes we have bad actors in the game and we have to use and find leverage that will stabilize that process. It's not all done in a sweet, comforting way. Right. Some things we have to be tough, but you can be tough and not really expose your vulnerability too much that they can take advantage of you. So really it's about recognizing their vulnerability. And when they feel vulnerable, when we can expose that, that's one of the things that makes the big bad actors, that makes them behave reasonably. So even when we are disadvantaged, my objective is to make the other side behave reasonably so that we can find a solution which is good for everyone. And when we are the big guy or girl and we're negotiating against a small company like you mentioned, and I've had this many times, in fact, I was in France last year and the CEO of a company came to me and said, you helped us negotiate out of a bad deal last year. It was a nine figure settlement. It was a massive settlement where we walked away from that settlement paying nothing to them. And the court of arbitration had decreed that we should pay everything. But we found leverage and we used it well in that. But the CEO told me they've come back to us to do business again this year because it's an amicable divorce, right? We can have a divorce and it wasn't horrible. And they realize they can come back and do business again because they see that as an organization we operate with integrity, humility, we are good faith actors and we can be tough if we need to be tough. But we, we are not there to cause harm to other people. And that's one of the things that shapes the way that I negotiate because. And it's the way that my team negotiate and it's the way the companies want to negotiate that hire me. They don't want a shark, right? They don't want a shark in the water that's going to savage people or savage businesses. And I've worked for many large companies who recognize that long term relationships is better business than the salespeople who tell customers anything just to close the deal. And they realize that very quickly that deal goes sour. So we are encouraging some of the sales teams to recognize that relationships are better for the organization if they're longer term, if there's more trust, if they're sustainable. And sometimes you can't do a deal, but we can review that and maybe next time round we can do a better deal. But we certainly don't seek to cause harm.

That is powerful. And I know a lot of people struggle with that position, negotiating from a disadvantaged position. And I love your perspective of your goal is to make them behave reasonably. Now, for those people who find themselves in that position, maybe it's a situation where the other side has the leverage and they're trying to be a shark, or maybe it's a workplace scenario and you're dealing with a workplace bully. Let's say the manager is the bully who's trying to take Advantage of you? How do you go about getting them to behave reasonably?

Well, listen, we've got a couple of things. Obviously these things can be complex, but what we do is we, we have a balance of power assessment. So we assess the balance of power and usually when we look at all the areas where they have power over us, we start to reflect on that and realize that things are not as bad as they seem, right? That's usually the first conclusion that we draw. We're in this position because we feel disempowered, we feel vulnerable. And my job then is to say, okay, they have a level of control over your vulnerability. This is all about control versus vulnerability. So if we reduce your vulnerability in their eyes, then we'll change their perspective. And eventually, if we get to the point where, where they realize what they have to lose, we can make them be reasonable. Because, you know, most people don't want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, right? And so of course we can squeeze that Achilles heel a little bit and make them realize what they have to lose. But our listening skills, usually we find their vulnerability. And if we listen long enough, the people who tell us where they are vulnerable for them, because usually the large ego can't wait to tell you how strong they are. And in that is the clues where they are vulnerable. So for me, it's just sit there long enough, listen hard enough, and you will find areas that they, sometimes they'll overprotect, they'll overshout about their strengths. And when people are overconfident, usually that's there to hide something else, right? That's there to hide a hidden fear. And that's where I start to look, right? That's where they leave a breadcrumb trail straight to it.

This is delicious. Kirk, this is really great because I love how you started this by talking about the feeling of it. Because it's really important that, okay, if you feel as though the other person has the power, we have to recognize that there is going to be a strategic element to this, but also a psychological and emotional element to this. The fact that we feel that we are in a disadvantaged position will have an impact on our psychology and an impact on the way that we negotiate and interact with other people. That's really important. So I love the fact that we started off from a self empowerment perspective and then recognizing that nobody is completely invulnerable. Everybody has some kind of weakness. And you're absolutely right. If you are an expert listener, you'll be able to figure out what those Potential vulnerabilities are. Can you help to make this a bit more practical by helping the listeners through kind of like an example of a vulnerability that might not have been readily apparent?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll probably think about a couple of examples to help go across the industry. So recently I was dealing with some oil based companies and for the last 10 years the oil industry has been dictated by powerful organizations and the supply and demand. Demand meant that the larger organizations could control the price and control the destiny of those negotiation. But in the last six months to a year, we see that that demand has changed shape. Now the issue with that is now is the golden time, right? Now is the golden time. But the mindset of the people in that industry have been beaten down for 10 years to say we just should accept the offers that the bad guys and girls give us, right? And so we had to get the team together to say, actually it's a whole new era, right? So demand has, has moved across to many different countries. And the supply that you are, you're the key to many organizations. You don't have to stay controlled by the ones who would seek to control you. So you have to expand your mindset and not accept what has been normal for you for the past five, 10 years. And so we first of all worked on their mindset and once we made them recognize that the landscape had changed and that their mind state was still the same, then it's relatively easy for them to adjust. And once they start to do one or two of these things, we can reinforce their confidence and get the ball and that momentum moving in a different direction. And also sometimes, you know, I've worked for. Well, I'll tell you about one, one that I worked for against a, a large American organization. Massive. And I met on the other side with four of the biggest lawyers in New York and three negotiators on their side of the table. Really impressive. And on my side of the table there's me and two guys from my company. And my initial reaction is, you know, that feeling in your throat. And then I realize they're building a big wall, right? There's seven of them building a big wall. Let's just have a bit of fun and find out what they have to hide. And it's that mindset recognizing that of course you're going to be overwhelmed at points, you're going to feel that you're overwhelmed, you're going to feel the balance of power is against you. But when you use those tried and tested, tested techniques to one, change your Mindset, but then start to find the gaps in their argument. Because the bottom line is you wouldn't be negotiating if the deal was already done, right? There's always. There's a vulnerability there somewhere. And we just have to teach people how to find that and, of course, force the other side to behave reasonably. And why do we do that? Because they recognize that they also have something to lose. And so for me, looking for what they have to lose, looking for their vulnerability. Find their Achilles heel, give a little squeeze, don't smash it. We're not there to kill people, right? We're not there to harm them, but we have to make them feel their own vulnerability in a way that makes them want to build partnerships, build relationships. And to be honest with you, even though some negotiators can behave badly, shout and ball and stamp their fist and all of that on the table, usually the organizations just want to do a deal, right? And so it's just been able to weather that storm and build relationships and not react to the things that if you are emotional and you're feeling vulnerable, you'll perhaps show that vulnerability.

Kirk, the thing that I love the most about this is that we are not sharing any kind of complicated strategy that's difficult to understand. We are sharing tried and true methodologies that have been proven time and time again over decades, borne by experience and research that we can all put into play. But the thing that holds us back is our mindset, our mentality, that fear. And whenever we feel that fear, whenever we're under emotional distress, we lose our form. If we were to just be a little bit more confident and trust the process, then we could do the things that you're telling us to do where we are listening, empathizing, understanding how they see the situation, what they think about the situation, how they feel about the situation, giving them the space to share and then seeing those vulnerabilities and the gaps that will exist. And you pointed out a critical truism that everybody forgets when they feel leveraged and they feel as though they don't have any power. They need you in some capacity, or they wouldn't be talking to you. We forget. We forget that really important point. We have to figure out what that is.

Yeah, we're still in the game. We just have to stay in the game. And usually staying in the game longer than others is the thing that yields success. So for me, one of the things for me is, I learned in the world of hostage negotiation, the concept of stress inoculation, training, right? To combat the Stress when you feel overwhelmed. And stress inoculation training is about three areas. One, we give you information, knowledge and then we transfer that knowledge into a skill. Phase two, and that skill is we exercise what we've just learned. We practice it in different contexts so that that information becomes a bit more secure with you and it becomes a skill. And then what we do is we help you adapt to the very environment. In a challenge for brand new hostage negotiators who come on the course, we give them information in the morning, we exercise in the afternoon and evening and we reinforce that over and over and over again in that world. We would train them from 7am till 2am for 14 days nonstop. We would put them under sleep deprivation and stress so that of course you don't think straight. We make them feel comfortable not thinking straight and then we put them into the real world supported by a team who will say, it's okay, it's normal, you're not alone. And then they adapt to that environment and it's not so stressful, it's not so overwhelming. And the reason we do that is because for a hostage negotiator, you have to make the situation better, you can't make it worse. So your personality traits, you have to be naturally drawn to that environment, you have to be comfortable in that environment, but also you have to perform. We ensure that we give you the best opportunity by going through that process that you're ready for the challenge. And that's why for me, overcoming that fear, which is natural, that vulnerability, which is natural, but we've got a process that will get you out of that, that will prepare you for the environment so that you will thrive there. You won't just get by, survive. You know, we don't want people to hide in that environment. We want them to make the best of the skills that we know are there. The natural empathy that people have, the care and compassion that people have, and also the desire to find a solution, right? You wouldn't be in this game if somewhere in there your heart was not in it. You wouldn't, you wouldn't last long, right? So it's about harnessing and nurturing all of these things so that we can get the best out of people. And that is just a simple leadership trait. It's just about how do you get the best out of people? And you have to just recognize that the fears that they have that will affect their confidence and stress, we have to help them remove that. We can't just tell them, get over it, right? That's Just not normal. We have to help them and nurture them the same way people did with me. Right. So me as a young negotiator, first time I went to a job on the edge of a bridge, I was talking to a woman on the wrong side of the barrier and I was thinking about my training. I was well supported by a negotiator called Ronnie and I was talking away to her. And after about 15 minutes, I realized that my leg had been vibrating the whole time I was shaking. And so eventually, the more and more you're exposed to that level of stress and anxiety, the lesser an impact that has. So you can manage your emotions. I wouldn't ever see they're controllable, but we can manage them. And we can certainly manage the outward display in our behavior that one makes us feel confident, but confident enough to reassure the other side that they can trust us. Right. So it's about building in that. So, yeah, I wouldn't claim to have been anywhere near the finished article with the start of this journey.

Oh man, so much, so much to explore here. Because first when we talked about, when you talked about the stress inoculation training, that is so fascinating. I love the fact that we started off with knowledge and then you focused on the skills and then you helped people to adapt to those difficult situation. So you're, you're giving them the opportunity to practice under duress. And when you think about an athlete, they always say this, they, they, you might be interviewing an athlete and they say, hey, wow, this was a really tough fight. How do you survive it? This is nothing compared to practice. Practice is way worse than. And so we practice under duress, understanding that when the time comes to perform, there are going to be a lot of different variables that'll throw us off. Sleep deprivation, stress, stress at home, that leaks into these conversations. And so that's why it's so important not only to understand the skills and to practice the skills, but also have skills that are replicable under duress. And if they're too complicated or clunky, then we won't be able to put them into action when it matters the most. And the story that you shared is so important because it shows the importance, like you said, of emotion management, but just the invaluable value that experience gives you. You can't learn that from a book. You have to get out there and practice and try it. And that's the thing. It's going to be scary at first, whatever the difficult conversation is, but we need to keep on going through it. Learning from it and improving throughout the process. Because experience is going to be the greatest source of our confidence.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I've heard that phrase which you. You talk about from athletes, train hard, play easy. Right. And. And for me, that's. That's one of the best things that we can try and replicate that. So the preparation, the training in advance, the. The research that we do, you know, we. Every time before I engage a counterpart, I'll rehearse with my team, My team, one of my teammates will put themselves in the position of the counterpart with the same mindset. They'll attack me, they'll verbally attack me. And so the first time I'm confronted by the counterpart won't be the first time I've had that conversation. In fact, if I'm well prepared, I've heard that three or four times in the last couple of days. Right. So it's about mental preparation, which means that when you're confronted with something which would normally have you reeling or perhaps make you think a little bit longer, you're ready. Ready with that response, and you're prepared and less stressed.

Oh, this is great. And listeners, just remember who we're talking to. This is Kirk, who has decades and decades and decades of experience of negotiating in different contents, continents, different contexts at the highest level, with lives on the line. And still what he said was, quote, every time you're practicing with your team before the negotiation. So there's no point in your career where you get to a point where, I've got it. I'm a perfect negotiator. You always need to practice, and that's really what leads to the success.

No lesson. So I'm going to just talk about my listening skills. Kwame. Right, so I heard you say there, I've been doing this stuff for decades and decades and decades. And I thought, man, I'm old, right? I'm getting old.

But.

And all of that experience, and let me tell you, I'm not even the best negotiator in my own home, right? So there's no point trying to claim that I'm global leader. Right?

That's funny. And again, speaks to the humility, my friends. We appreciate that, Kirk. This was fantastic, an absolute masterclass. I really appreciate you coming on. Before you go, remind the listeners about your company, Negotiated Resolutions limited And how they can get in touch with you and how they can work with you.

Yeah, well, listen, please look us up on negotiated resolutions.co.uk if you Google me, Kirk Cannell, you'll hopefully get Relatively quick access to the website. And what we do is we train people and organizations. Of course we do one to one coaching and training. We'll train you, we'll coach. Sometimes we coach people in the background. We sign non disclosure agreements because people want us to be invisible and we completely recognize why that would be of value. Or also we will negotiate on your behalf. And I've got a strong team of people who have performed at the highest level, both in the law enforcement and conflict resolution and corporate environment for the last 20, 30 years. Our success rate, we are happy to see, is almost 100% over that period because we invest so much in our training, we invest so much in our team ethos. And of course we fit in well with the people who employ us, who consult with us, and we support them to achieve the best outcome possible. And those situations where they feel that perhaps they just need a little bit of support and we can come along and tailor, make that support for whatever your need happens to be at that moment. So thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to of course have a little plug at my, my company and try and grow the business. But actually, more importantly, and I know you're about to sign off, I want to ask you, because I know you've did 800 of these podcasts, you have got a wealth of experience and I'm more interested in what you can bring to the party because you've listened to 800 people like me giving you their two minute elevator pitch that I just gave you. But actually what are the things that you pick up? That one have got the longest resonating effect on you as the key elements of negotiation, both in the business world, but actually just in life. Right. Even for negotiating with your family or your partners or your children, whatever that happens to be. What are the things that are the golden nuggets that you've picked up?

Oh man, Kirk, I'm getting chills. This is perfect. This is perfect. So I'm going to have to apologize next podcast guest because I'm going to be, I'm going to go on a roll here, Kirk. Okay, so I love that you asked this question because that's something I've been thinking about a lot because with we're creating this new program called Negotiable, it's going to be an online community where we teach people how to negotiate, but it has a community aspect where you can chat and talk to each other, answer questions, learn and grow together, but also a course. And the course will continue to grow in perpetuity so the course is going to be called the Essential Elements of Negotiation where we answer that very question. Because we talk to people like you who are hostage negotiators, right? We have teachers, we have police interrogators, we have mediators, all sorts of different people who are having all sorts of different conversations all the time in different contexts. What are the unifying things that bring all of them together. So I've been spending the last six months answering that very question, really. So I actually, I actually know the answer. So this is great. Number one, the first thing that's coming to mind, we have curiosity, like genuine curiosity, not that strategic curiosity, just to leverage people where we're only asking questions in order to, to expose vulnerabilities and attack. It's like genuine curiosity and then demonstrating how different people ask different questions in different circumstances for different reasons. A complete art to that. Then fluidity, like you said, the ability to adapt. It's this ability that people, great negotiators have, but they've gotten through years and years of experience. And so I'm trying to figure out how do we get that fluidity to, how can we teach that? So that was one of the things. Humility was one of the elements too. Because I've never seen a negotiator who is really good in the moment, who's very, very arrogant, right? They have confidence, which is another element, but they're not arrogant. So they have the ability to blend that confidence with humility. That's really important. This was one that I got from Gary Nessner. I didn't realize until he said it. Likability. All great negotiators are likable. They're, they have this ability to, to make, to get the other person to like them in a non manipulative type of way that's genuine and they create a genuine relationship and so empathetic. They're able to understand the person but at the same time they're able to not allow themselves to be manipulated emotionally at the same time, which leads us to assertiveness. So they can advocate for themselves in a really respectful way without being aggressive. Right. And then we have different strategic elements that people can layer in. And so the idea that we're going to do it's a really playful approach because we wanted to make it easy for preparation and understanding. So we're going to create this, it's in development now. It's going to be this periodic table of elements, kind of a riff off of that, but the essential elements of negotiation. So when you're preparing, you can go through the elements and say, hmm, okay, this is a really tough negotiation. I need a little bit of this element, a little bit of that, this, this, this, and then piece it together. So, yeah, I put a lot of thought into that because it's been so humbling.

Kwame, thank you very much for sharing. You've got all this experience. You've got a great opportunity to do something wonderful with it. But actually, for me, what's fabulous is, wow, you're a real person, right? You're a real. It's not. This isn't a game show host. This isn' podcast, where you just get to try and be an influencer. And you've got a massive following because you're real. And I love that. Right. I would urge you show people who you are, and you're not afraid to be that. Because for me, passion, authenticity, if you're talking about empathy, that's real. That's real. And for me, that's always what I look for. You know, one of the things that turns me off is when I get that veneer of people just quoting phrases or lines I've learned over the years, and there's no. No feeling in it. Can I tell you, I've enjoyed this, but I've enjoyed meeting you. Right. And we spoke at the beginning of you being based in Columbus, Ohio. I'm coming to see you, and we're gonna. We're gonna have a beer. Right?

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