Mastering Negotiations with Chris Voss

Hello my fellow negotiators. Did you know I once had a listener share that after listening to our podcast, she was able to negotiate a $53,000 raise. And you know what I told her? Where is my commission? Just kidding. But the real story is this was after years of being too afraid to negotiate. But after listening to a couple of episodes on Salary Negotiation, she felt equipped with with the confidence and tools to ask for the payment she deserved. And that, my friends, is the power of negotiation. And through a subscription to our new membership community Negotiate Anything Premium, we're taking that power to the next level. With customized playlists based on our most popular topics, you'll be able to find the episodes you're looking for much faster and much easier. A tool that comes in handy as you're getting ready to prepare for an important negotiation. Even I find myself asking which episode should I listen to before heading into a high stakes negotiation? And you might be saying, but Kwame, you're the ones having the conversations. But I forget. So I listen to the episodes multiple times. Okay, now here's the thing about Negotiate Anything Premium. It'll allow you to dive deeper into the specific situations you're facing, whether it's a salary negotiation, an important business meeting, or an emotional conversation with a loved one. Bonus for you. In addition to ad free and extended episodes, Premium members will have exclusive access to solo episodes and insights from yours truly. And as you know, it will be very dry and very boring. Because I have no sense of humor and this is something that you all have been asking for. I'll also be offering personalized answers to some of your most burning questions through our Ask Me Anything feature. If you've been enjoying our traditional feedback, imagine the value a premium subscription can offer. I've felt the benefit of negotiation firsthand and it is life changing. Many of you don't know this, but my journey has taken me from people pleaser to a confident negotiator. Because I was able to do two simple things through negotiation. I was able to first change my mindset and then I was able to improve my skill set. And that is what will happen for you when you join Premium. I've already seen the impact of these skills and the power of this model not only in my own life, but also in the lives and careers of our clients all around the world. My family, my friends, and our team here at A&I, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Now, are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Check the link in the show notes to learn more. I'm excited to continue the conversation. I'll catch you later.

So I'm here with Chris Voss. Chris, thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, my pleasure, Kwame. Happy to be on with you, man.

Good stuff. So can you tell the audience a little bit about your unique negotiation background?

Yeah, well, it's hostage negotiation for business. I'm a retired FBI hostage negotiator. I've 15 years as a hostage negotiator with the FBI. Ended up being the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator. And in the process of getting better at hostage negotiation, I went through Harvard Law School's negotiation course and actually ended up teaching at that course. Because the crazy idea here, the ridiculous idea, is that the underlying dynamics are the same. It's human nature, it's emotional intelligence. And the hostage negotiation is maybe military grade emotional intelligence. And we can use it in our business and personal life. And that's what I've been doing since I left the bureaucracy.

I love it. And in your book, you shared a really fun story about how you were able to take one of the classes at Harvard and you were in the negotiation simulation and you actually did pretty well. Can you tell us about that one? That's a fun story.

Yeah. Well, you know the head of the program on negotiation, Bob Mnookin, who's a great guy and a brilliant guy, he wrote a book called Beyond Winning. And there's a chapter in that that's got a great chapter on empathy. And Bob kind of wanted to test me out a little bit, you know, wanted to see what I got. And so he said, hey, you know what if I was a kidnapper, what would you say to me in order to do the negotiation? And I said, I just ask you some open ended questions. Now I realize that I'm setting them up a little bit with a bit of an innocuous answer because I know open ended questions that just sounds like that's just stupid, not going to do anything. And I knew that's the way he was going to react. He was kind of like, really? You know, that's it? That's all you got? That's the extent of your hostage negotiation Jedi mind tricks. And I go like, yeah, I'll just ask you a couple open ended questions. So now he's kind of chomping at the bed. He wants to go one on one. And he actually gets a couple people to come in and watch. He has his secretary come in with a tape recorder. He has Gabrielle Bloom, who's a Phenomenally smart negotiator from Israel. She was in Israeli defense forces attorney and happened to be a visiting scholar at Harvard. So he says, he says, all right, we got your son, we got your son needs a million dollars by tomorrow morning. A million dollars or we kill him. Yes or no, what are you going to do? And I asked him the open ended question that I know is the killer. I just go, how am I supposed to do that? And he kind of blinks a couple times. He goes, no, no, no, we got your son, we're going to kill him. I need a million dollars. And I said, Bob, how am I supposed to do that? I mean, how am I supposed to pay if I don't know he's alive? And if I don't know he's alive, I mean, how am I supposed to do that? And I just tied him in knots with it. The how question is really the number one way to say no. It's a killer question. It is a sneak attack question. The other side never knows where you're coming from. And it works every time. Bob was satisfied that I knew what I was doing when I did that.

You know what's so brilliant about it, and this is something that you go in depth in, in your book, is that with the calibrated question, as you call it in the book, you allow yourself to say no without actually saying the word no.

Right.

And so it's a question that allows you to put up a defense, a barrier, without seeming unreasonable. And I think that's the brilliance of it.

Yeah, you know, and you're capturing it. Exactly. And you know, I like that you recognize that we use the term calibrated question instead of open ended question because every question is going to have an impact. So why not calibrate that impact? If you know it's going to have an impact, don't be surprised by it. Calibrate it and let it hit its target. And you know, that's why we call this approach overall tactical empathy. I mean this is, we've learned enough over the last 40 years about these skills that it's no longer, well, just use empathy and just be nice. Here's what we're looking for, here's what we're trying to do. We're trying to trigger relationship building. We're trying to intentionally and trigger a feeling of empowerment. So we know enough now. Why don't we just calibrate what we're doing and let it hit where we want it to. Right.

And one of the points that you made that was fascinating Is that even if you want to say something directly, like there's a point that you want to make, you can somehow turn that into a calibrated question which allows the person to come to your conclusion themselves.

Right?

Right. And you know, meaning has a much better impact when the other side perceives it, when they figure it out. You know, you can tell somebody something to get a point across, but there's actual data out there that says telling them very passive on their side. So you actually have to tell somebody something 19 times. It's incredibly inefficient way to get a point across. But if I calibrate what I'm saying in a way where you perceive it, where the light bulb goes on over your head, where you figure it out, I will get my meaning across much faster by taking the indirect route. The straightest distance between two points is not a straight line. The shortest distance between two points is not a straight line. If I try to be direct, if I try to tell you that's a highly inefficient way to get meaning across, if I figure out a way to say it so that you perceive it and you pick up on it, it'll happen much faster.

Okay, that's fascinating. So can we give an example here? So if the point that you're trying to make is that somebody's offer is kind of ridiculous, you know, it's being unreasonable and it isn't taking into account the personal factors that you're dealing with on your end. How would you turn that statement, which of course, if you were to say it directly, would be very aggressive, how would you turn that into a calibrated question to try and put you on the spot a little bit, you know.

And the two things are that it gets back to, how am I supposed to do that? Because then, first of all, people always ask for more than what they want to start with. So when you say, how am I supposed to do that? In a subtle way, you're saying to the other side, I know you're asking for more than what you actually want. And you're doing it in a way that's very non accusatory. It's making them aware without accusing them. Secondly, it causes them to take a real hard look at your situation. Let's say that everything that they were asking for was reasonable, which never happens. That still doesn't mean that these things are easy for you to do. And what you're trying to say to them is, look, look, I'm trying to cooperate with you, but please just take a Look at my situation. Now, these things will all come across to them and they figure it out based on what you've said. You know, it's implied, so it's soaked up. And then on top of that, because everybody's nightmare response is that the other person is going to say, well, that's your problem. You figure it out. Number one, if they say that, the first thing you have to ask yourself is, do I want to deal with this person at all? And number two, if they say that what you've actually just done is you've just found out there's no movement in any given negotiation on any given term. Your objective as a negotiator is to find out how much latitude there is without driving the other person from the table. And to push them to their extreme, you have to draw the fine line between making them slightly uncomfortable and driving them away. And it is a fine line. And that's the artist's line, if you will. How do I come up to that line without going over it? How do I come up to the cliff without falling off the cliff? And that's what, how am I supposed to do that? Does it tells you you're really close to the edge, but you haven't gone over because when the other side looks at you and says, that's your problem, you figure it out. You're still talking. They haven't slammed their hands down and walked away from the table. They haven't hung up the phone, they haven't walked away. And they're still telling you that they want to collaborate with you. They're a little more direct at this point in time, but you're still talking. So it brings all these things into bear and you're actually doing your job as a negotiator by gently finding out where the boundaries are.

And you know what's so interesting about your approach, and obviously this comes from your background as a hostage negotiator, is that you, you are more willing to push than what I find is seen in the typical academic approach to negotiation, which is almost strictly cordial and interest based. Yours is a little bit more aggressive, but you're able to do it in a way that still builds trust and maintains a relationship with the other side.

Yeah, exactly right. And that's a crazy thought. I mean, how can I be aggressive and still build trust? How can I be aggressive and still build a relationship? And I actually like to think of it as being assertive versus being aggressive because, you know, we're not attacking the other side. I don't Want to deteriorate the relationship. I don't want them to feel attacked. And, you know, we use this all the time with kidnappers, with terrorists, with killers, where when you went over the edge, I mean, somebody really did die. Somebody fell off a cliff, you know, the consequences were dire. So. And we never had, no matter what the bad guy, nobody ever pushed back. No harm ever came from us saying, how am I supposed to do that? The worst thing that has ever happened is because the other. And when the other side has said, because you have to, that's your problem, you figure it out. That's as bad as it gets. And we never had a negative consequence with any killer in the world.

I've got a quick story for you. So I was at this keynote and I talked to a listener and he said, kwame, I love the podcast, but my favorite part, man, I love those commercials. And I said, I don't think this is a true story. And now let me tell you about Negotiate Anything Premium, where you can listen to your favorite Negotiate Anything episodes ad free. With a subscription to Premium, you can get access to more insights from your favorite experts and ad free listening and extended episodes. Bonus, you'll also get access to exclusive episodes and personalized advice from yours truly. If you've been looking for an easy and affordable way to level up your skills and negotiate more of the best things in life, join our Premium community Now for that gentleman in that fictional story. This ads for you and for the rest of you, I'll see you in Premium.

Wow, that is fascinating. And it's incredible because like you said, you're dealing with the highest of stakes negotiation with people who are very, very volatile. And still your mode of pushing back didn't push them over the edge, right?

That's exactly right. It never pushed anybody over the edge. There was. No one was ever actually physically harmed. And no animals were harmed in the making of this movie. You know, no hostages were harmed in the making of this movie. It worked, you know, it worked for us.

That's great. Okay, so what about the danger of assuming rationality in negotiation? Because typically people approach negotiation and they're like, oh, you know, one plus one equals two. Everybody knows that. And then those people always end up being frustrated. So what role does rationality play to you?

You know, rationality. If this was a rational world, would we have the presidential candidates that we have today? If this was a rational world, would the US Government lock down and go into sequester? You know, if this was a rational world, would we need the United nations, you know, we could go on and on and on. If this was a rational world, would somebody's 13 year old child not want a video game? That doesn't do them any good? I mean, rationality is this absurd fiction of our lives. You know, we make decisions based on what we care about. And that makes decision making by definition an emotional process which knocks rationality out of it. Rationality is what we come up with after we've already decided what we want. And if this was a rational world, I mean, we'd be looking at a very different world. So a hostage negotiator never thought it was a rational world. We always thought we were driven by emotions and that's why this stuff works.

So for those who think it is rational, now that they have been disavowed of that belief, how do you suggest that they approach it? Now that we realize it's emotional, it's not a logical proceeding, what would be the best way for them to. Now that they've come to that conclusion, what's the best way for them to proceed?

Well, you know, just interact with people. You know, echo back to them, clarify with them, validate without agreeing how they feel about something. I challenge any person listening to this to spend only one day, just one day, just trying to validate what people agree. Don't say, I understand. Say, hey, from your perspective, this is the way it looks to you. You know, you're upset about this because of this. Just spend a day, a vacation from rationality if you will, and see what happens. People in your life are gonna love you. You might just have the most enjoyable day that you had. And it's amazing how things will work themselves out. So then if you can get things to sort of work themselves out by applying a higher level of emotional intelligence to your interactions, spend the next day seeing if you can add in. Then how can we reach some agreements based on my newfound emotional intelligence superpowers.

And this kind of sounds like what you were talking about in the book when you mentioned tactical empathy.

Yeah.

Am I on the right page there? Okay, can you tell the audience a bit about that?

Yeah, well, again, it's. We've known enough about this. I mean, tactical empathy is, you know, taking empathy and making it operational. The Rand Corporation is this incredible think tank that was founded in the US And I remember talking to the head of Rand a number of years ago and he said, you know, knowledge isn't any good if you don't apply it. You know, let's apply what we know. Let's apply Our emotional intelligence. So that's the whole idea. We're trying to apply emotional intelligence. We're trying to get each other in a better way. It's a tactical approach. We know enough about empathy. I know if you're upset about something, if I just recognize you're upset, that'll help you gain control over it. I just say, look, I could see you're really upset about it. If I know you like something and I recognize that you like it. If you feel good about something, I can say, yeah, I can see this really matters to you. I know tactically speaking, you're going to feel better about it. You know, pick your favorite sports team. You know, pick. Pick the Seattle Seahawks. You know, you can say, you know, I know you really love the way the Seahawks play since Pete Carroll's been coaching them. You really love Pete Carroll. I mean, it makes people feel better. So we've done this enough. I mean, why not apply this tactically? Is it wrong to apply it tactically? Is this nefarious in some way? Only if you're trying to manipulate somebody into something that's bad for them. You know, one man's manipulation is another man's persuasion or another man's influence. You see a beautiful girl, you tell her she's beautiful. You're trying to manipulate her into going on a date with you. You're trying to manipulate a beautiful woman into falling in love with you. You see someone who you work with, who's done a great job for your company, and you say, man, great job. You know, you're actually trying to manipulate them into feeling better about their efforts and doing it again. So it's not that any of these tools are, by definition, wrong. It's dependent upon, you know, what you're trying to do with them.

See, that's fascinating because you are, in a sense, manipulating their emotions for your own purposes. But then again, like you said, it comes down to whether or not you're doing it in a way that's detrimental to them.

Right.

And that's the kind of ethical line, right?

Yeah, there's a very definite ethical line that I would draw in how I apply these skills. You know, but sometimes people get really worried about because emotional intelligence is ridiculously powerful. There was an article written not that long ago called the dark side of emotional intelligence, because it can have a dark side when you understand how powerful it could be. And a lot of times people say, aren't you worried about this? And I say, have you got. Have you got a. Have you got a smartphone? Have you got an iPhone? Have you got a BlackBerry? A Droid? Have you got a Samsung Galaxy? Have you got any of these phones? Reach in your pocket, pull out your smartphone. You got one of those. And everybody does. And I'll say, you know, there's some really bad people that use these. Oh, but wait a minute. That didn't stop you from using your phone because somebody else is using it with bad intent. No, it's just a tool, and it depends upon how you use it. It's up to you. It's up to your own integrity.

It's a brilliant example. And I tell you, I think the emotional aspect of this is something that's overlooked for a lot of reasons. One of them being that some people have fooled themselves into believing that, oh, emotions don't belong in the business world. And so they're leaving one of the most powerful, persuasive tools on the table because they believe that emotions don't belong. It's all logic.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, and they'll say the same guy who tell you that emotions don't belong, they'll tell you that you should be passionate about your company's mission. You know, you should have a passion and purpose. And, you know, wait a minute. Aren't those synonyms, you know, emotion versus passion? It's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

Right. And one of the things I really liked about tactical empathy is that you didn't just stop there when it comes to identifying with people's emotions and getting deeper there. You brought in mirroring, which was a powerful tool that you were able to use to get deeper and get people to elaborate. Can you tell them a little bit about that one?

You know, mirroring is this ridiculously simple little tool that works wonders, and it might be the closest thing to a Jedi mind trick that we've got. You know, it's not your. The mirroring you learned in your Networking 101 session, where they say, mirror someone's body language or mirror their tone of voice or mirror their energy level. That's. That's. No, it's none of those things. It's repeating the last one to three words of what someone has just said. The last one to three words of what they've just said. Yeah, of what they've just said. And those were examples of mirrors. And it causes people to go on their connectors. They reword, they clarify, they tell you more. They feel encouraged. And if you don't do it, naturally, you don't believe it till you try it. And people take themselves hostage all the time. They say, well, that's too wooden or that's too formulaic or that's too parrot. Like, nobody's going to like it. So I'm not going to try it. You're taking yourself hostage by beating yourself like that. When we teach it, it's actually one of the first skills we teach because it feels so awkward until you know how it works. And then people love it. They. Once they catch on, they absolutely love it. They do it all the time.

Yeah, it's so powerful and so simple to execute. And I think one of the things that you mentioned in the book, that is one of the keys to mirroring effectively was being patient and comfortable in the three to four seconds of silence that happens after you mirror.

Right, right, exactly. You know, and three seconds can feel like an eternity. And people are horrified. I would say fully half of us are horrified to shut up and let that three seconds pass and even be silent until the other person speaks. I mean, effective pauses are named that for a reason. They can be powerful tools if you can just learn to please be still for three seconds.

Right. Do you have a story that could speak to the benefit of taking the time to wallow in silence for strategic purposes?

You know, we're training some people in a company on a critical negotiation, and we had them rehearse in a negotiation, and we had a very specifically selected calibrated question that was designed to provoke a response. And, you know, that question, in point of fact, was, you know, why would you ever do business with us? Because that's designed to get the other side to defend you. And people are supposed to say, oh, well, you know, we would do business with you for these reasons and these reasons and these reasons. And that's how you get the other side to make your case for you when you say, why would you ever do what you wanted them to do? They defended, and we set them up for this. And we went to the simulation, and the people asking the question were so uncomfortable with it that they could only last for about two seconds. And then they jumped in with more reasoning and they continued to talk. They didn't let the other side talk first. And in the outbrief afterwards, their counterparts said, thank God you kept talking, because when you asked us that question, you had us. And we looked at each other and we were getting ready to give in completely. And if you'd have just waited a few more seconds, but you couldn't. And thank God you kept talking because you bailed us out of that Corner. So, you know, they blew the calibration of the impact of what they said by not being able to live in the silence.

See, that's a really brilliant example because it just demonstrates that it's not a situation where nothing is happening in that gap. There is a lot of action in that silence. And sometimes it's the most critical point of action during the conversation because in that time, in that silence in their brain, they're working for you. Like you said, there's a lot of cognition happening and if you jump in too soon, bail them out. All that work you put in with that calibrated question, you didn't give it time to work.

Very well said. Exactly, exactly. You blew everything that you built up to that point in time.

That's fascinating. And wow. You know, I'm going to take a quick pause here just for a little bit of thing. It's so funny that this is happening right now because I'm telling you, this book just changed everything for me because I was getting to. Yes, interest base all the way, and you brought in some things that just completely blew my mind. Things I never even thought of. Like, with the question structured for a no, that was utterly brilliant because I never would have thought of doing that. It's almost scary, you know, to suggest something that, on its face, seems to be not in your best interest, but psychologically, like you demonstrated, it's just a powerful technique.

Yeah, there's some really fun stuff here that, you know, I've been lucky enough to come across based on ideas that other people have given us and that we've taken them several steps farther or, you know, even the fact that this stuff works on all cultures is really kind of cool as well.

Yeah, it's fascinating because, I mean, when you think about it, we're dealing with the same psychology with different societal impacts, of course, but at its base, you know, cognitively speaking, there are going to be those similarities. And so, yeah, these things will work cross culturally. That's so fascinating.

Yeah, it is kind of interesting, especially when we're taught that culture creates so many barriers, it's nice to negotiate in a way that moves below the barrier.

Right. And, you know, this is similar to the thing that you said when you were talking about not to be afraid of. No, because typically in a negotiation, you want to get yes, yes, yes. Get there quickly and efficiently without much problem. But you uncovered the fact that getting to a no can tell you a lot more than a yes.

Yeah. And no is protection, and yes is commitment. And, you know, the set of question I love to ask people all the time because we think no is success. And my setup question is, well, if no is success, we think that yes is success. And my setup question is, if yes is success, then what is no? And people always say, well, no is failure. And I'll say no. That was a trick question. Who says yes is success? Yes isn't success. Yes is a trap that we lure other people into. You know, there are three kinds of yeses. There's confirmation, commitment, and there's counterfeit. And people try to lead us into commitment yes with confirmation yes so much that everyone is an expert at giving the counterfeit yes. So if you think yes is success, you've just taken a counterfeit hundred dollar bill and you can't spend that anywhere.

Right. And can you tell the audience a little bit more about how dangerous it could be to accept a counterfeit yes thinking that it's a confirmation yes or a commitment yes?

Well, you know, because people fist for yes so much. Many business people are used to basically saying, you know, aha, Go on, you know, m question as often have you ever taken a yes to find out later that it was a no? I mean, yes is a great device to fish. If you are trying to get me to say yes, I actually want to suck as much information out of you as possible. I want to know where you're coming from. I want to know what you're offering. I want to use you against somebody else. So I will string you along to try to get somebody else interested to play you off against somebody else if you're dumb enough to sucker by the counterfeit yes. So I may schedule meetings with you. I may use you to drive somebody else's price down. You know, I may say, well, you know, I'm talking to Kwame and you know, he could do this for me. He could do x, y and z for me when I never wanted to do business with Kwame in the first place. But I'll start saying yes to you because I want to drive my preferred vendor down on price. You know, procurement people are great at this. I mean, the procurement people and companies, the supply chain people, they will hammer you with this kind of an approach because they know how much in love with the word yes. We are, you know, taking a counterfeit yes. There are a lot of sharks out there that are expert at giving out the counterfeit yes in order to set us up to be hung out to dry.

Wow. And so how do you tell the difference? If you've received a yes, how do you know, that it's a commitment. Yes. That gold standard of yes.

Well, yes is nothing without how. There's probably about three or four ways and you probably need to test them all. I mean, if at any given point in time you've got a yes in a conversation, then you got to. This is a Jim Camp approach. You know, you got to three plus it. You got to give them to give you a real solid yes three times in the same conversation. So you paraphrase it, you mirror it, you summarize it. If it's a counterfeit yes, they'll hesitate. Nobody gives a strong counterfeit yes every time, you know, the first one will be yes, and the second time will be well, yes, or, you know, or they might say, well, you know. Why? What makes you. Why would I say anything else? Anytime they come off of that, you're getting a counterfeit yes, which is why you got to get it three times in the same conversation. Even if they're good at the counterfeit yes. Yes is nothing without how. How are we going to do this? How are we going to implement? How's this going to look moving forward? These are called visioning questions. If it's a counterfeit yes, they won't have an answer. You know, how are we going to implement this moving forward? If they go dead silent, since they had no intention of implementing, they have no vision of it, they won't be prepared to answer that question. So, you know, and the flip side is, let's say they didn't mean to be giving you a counterfeit yes, it was inadvertent. If they have no vision for implementation, you're screwed anyway because it isn't going to happen. So yes is nothing without how. You got to pivot the how. And then not only how are we going to get this done, but how will we know we're on track and how will we address it if we're not? You get answers to those three hows, you are rock solid. If you can't get answers to those three hows, then you have no foundation and this is going to fall in on itself.

Wow, that is so deep. And we could go on and on and on. But for those of you who want more, you can buy the book. Never split the difference.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about negotiate anything premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode and with Negotiate Anything Premium you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a few $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you.