Mastering Persuasion with Brian Ahearn

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Brian, thanks for joining us today.

Hey, I'm happy to be back. Kwame, it's great to see you.

Yes, it is great to see you again, my friend. So how about you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do for the folks who might not remember you from the previous two times you've been on the show.

Okay. Well, Brian Ahern, and I am the founder, chief influence officer of my own company called Influence People. And I teach people about the psychology of persuasion and how you take those decades of research and bring them into your communication to make it easier for people to say yes to you.

That's fantastic. And now with this new book, I'm excited about this because I read your first book and I gave you what could only be described as an obscene amount of notes I took on it. I think it was about 15 pages of notes I took on it.

Yes.

So now we're here talking about this second book. So can you tell us about that?

Sure. The first book, Influence People, was really kind of generic in terms of looking at influence in a variety of situations. The second book, which is called Persuasive selling for relationship driven insurance agents is very specific to people in sales. I would like people to know it's not just for people in insurance. I would hate for somebody listening to this to say, oh well, that's insurance. It's not me. Because in the book people learn about the sales cycle, eight steps in the selling cycle. And more importantly, they learn about the different principles of influence and which ones are most effective at each step. So when people are strategizing about how they're going about their sales, they can be very specific about how can I bring this particular principle in here? Because I'm going to get the most from that as compared to maybe certain other principles. The other thing that the book does too is it looks at personality styles and which principles are most effective with different personality styles. So with that as the backdrop, Kwame, I think anybody in sales, anybody who's got to sell a product service themselves, their ideas would benefit from the book.

Absolutely. And that's something that I'm recognizing more people are interested in now too. Recognizing the difference in different personality types and then trying to figure out what we can do to persuade and connect with those types of folks. And so when you think about the different personalities, what is your base like, which approach are you using? And then where should we start when it comes to analyzing personalities and changing our approach?

I used something that's analogous to disc, but I call my model Deal. And I like that because we deal with people and in sales you hope to close deals. And deal stands for driver, expressive, amiable and logical. So the driver personality is that task focused, like to be in control individual. The Expressive would be like to be in control, but more relationship driven. And then the Amiable is a relationship driven individual who's very self focused in terms of they're not trying to control people, situations, et cetera. And then you have the logical, which again is a very task focused individual. But they're not about controlling others. They're really more thoughtful in terms of introspective and controlling themselves. So I use that as a four step model for people to try to make a quick analysis of who they're dealing with. There's lots of other personality models out there, but when you're in sales, you don't have a lot of time to try to make assessment of your potential client. You've got to have something that's quick and easy. And I think if people can focus on task oriented or relationship driven, like to be in control or self control, that's a pretty simple model. And then we start talking about which principles would be most effective for those different four personalities.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, especially the practical side too, because you have different. Like you said, think about Strengths Finder, for example. Strengths Finder is a fantastic program, but the thing is, you're not going to get an assessment of the 34 strengths that somebody has before the conversation. That's going to be hard to do. But. So I like how practical this is.

Right. Some models really focus on you as an individual and there's tremendous value in understanding yourself and how you come across to people. My model really focuses on, hey, you're going into this sales situation, can you make a quick assessment of this individual? And one of the things that I do that I think is really helpful for people, it's one thing to try to think about task oriented and relationship driven, et cetera, but I usually have people say, who do you think would be that person who loves to be in charge? And they're just about getting things done. They don't like focusing on relationship. And when people start coming up with, for example, Steve Jobs is a really good example of a driver, then you've got that visual comparison point and you can say, oh, this guy or this lady I'm dealing with, they're like a little Steve Jobs. That's who they remind me of. So you're not having to remember all of these terms and definitions. You can make that quick mental assessment as an example of an expressive person. I think Oprah is the ultimate in the expressive, right. She's totally relationship focused. She wants to know about you and your story, but she is in control of her media empire. There's no doubt about that. She is someone who likes to be in control. So those are a couple of examples where people could go, oh yeah, this person does remind me of Oprah Winfrey or Bill Clinton or whomever that other expressive might be. And then they can have a better gauge when they're dealing with that individual.

Makes a lot of sense. And now when we think about the adjustments that we need to make persuasively with each individual, what is the danger of not tailoring our approach?

So some people, when you realize what your strengths are, you can overplay your strengths and then those strengths can become weakness. It's really about understanding that other person and what they will probably respond to. So as an example, we talk a lot about how important it is to build relationship when you're selling, and that is true the vast majority of the time. But when you're thinking about A drop. And I'd ask people, Donald Trump used to be somebody that we would talk about. You know, now it's taboo. But he was ultimate driver, Steve Jobs driver. Do you think either of those guys cares about being your friend? Not at all. Right. So going in and trying to connect on things that you have in common and pay them compliments, they're going to just be looking at their watch saying, quit wasting my time. But when you go in and you talk to somebody in that position and you learn about scarcity and how people respond to scarcity, and you reframe what you're talking about and you say, instead of saying to potentially, if Steve Jobs were still here, hey, Steve, I've got this idea, it could make us a million dollars. And he's like, dime a dozen. But you go in and you say, steve, we're losing a million dollars. And he says, what? And now you've got that platform. It's just reframing, but it's understanding somebody who's a driver will respond much more to than a lot of other people.

Absolutely. It makes so much sense. And again, it shows the power, like you said, of framing the message. You say the exact same thing, but you say it differently depending on who's on the other side.

Absolutely. And another example with drivers is consistency, really from a place of ego. When that person who's a driver says something, they believe it because they came up with it. Whereas a logical person, they also respond to consistency, but it's because they trust their intellect. And the research and the a study that they've done when they came up with something that they finally shared with people. So it's the same principle, but it's driven differently internally by those people. But if you can tap into that, it makes it easier for that person to say yes.

Right. And based on your experience in sales and especially thinking about the psychological aspect of it, what are some of the biggest mistakes that people often make when it comes to approaching these conversations?

Well, using insurance agents as an example, I think a big mistake that is made is getting up in front of people and touting all the reasons to do business with them. And some of them may be good reasons, but they're your reasons. If you can ask the right questions and get the other person to verbalize those reasons, then they own it. And that's tapping into this principle of consistency. So, for example, Kwame, when I work with agents and I say, why should somebody want to do business with you? And I'll hear this one a lot, because we're local. And I'll challenge them a little bit and say, okay, that might be good, but in this world that we're in now, people can get on zoom. They can see their insurance agent anywhere in the world almost anytime. And then they're like, well, yeah, I guess you're right. So then I would say, what's the right question to ask? And if I were that agent, and I might say, kwame, is it important to you that if something happened and you needed to see me and be with me in 15 or 20 minutes, that we'd be able to meet to up? And most people at that point would say, well, I would like that. I mean, that would be beneficial if I could do that. Now it's your reason. And I can step in and say, you know, Kwame, one of the reasons that people like to do business with us is because we're local and you would have that opportunity if, God forbid, something happened and we needed to see each other in 20 or 30 minutes, we can make it happen. Now you're saying, wow, this is a good reason to do business. But it wasn't me telling you customers love us because of this. It was me asking the right questions to get you to say, I'd like that.

Absolutely. Yeah. It makes so much sense. And it seems subtle, right? It is subtle, but it's really, really, really powerful. Because I think a lot of times people engage in what I call egocentric persuasion, where they say, okay, this is what would be persuasive to me. So I'm just going to say it like that to you. And it doesn't always work that way. And it's not that the reason that you have is a wrong reason. It's the way that you're delivering it is the wrong way. And so for the listeners out there, what BR did there, which was so powerful and smooth too right, was that he took the local reason, but then framed it in a way that the person would respect.

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I learned a long time ago there was a training event that I went to. It was a boot camp probably 15 years ago, a man named Tom Hopkins. And he put it this way. He said, when you say it, they doubt it. When they say it, they believe it. So you've got to get them to say it. And you do that by asking the right questions. But again, the psychology behind that is consistency. When we say something, we tend to believe it. We own it more. And so that's why in sales, it's so important to understand the right questions to ask, and then just to be quiet and let the other person do the talking, pay attention, ask more questions based on what you're hearing, and you can build a case that you are probably the right person to go with.

Right. And let's talk about consistency, because you've mentioned it a few times. And when we think about consistency here, we're talking about, like the Cialdini highlighted consistency principle. When we talk about print, the principle of consistency in general, what people often think is, oh, I just need to stay on message and have integrity with the way that I'm saying things, so I'm not contradicting myself too. So can you go a little bit deeper and help to distinguish between those two understandings of the word?

Sure. So when we talk about consistency, or in the psychology of persuasion, he calls it consistency, commitment and consistency. Consistency, I always say, is about the other person. It's about you, Kwame. What have you said? What have you done? What do you believe? If I can align what I'm asking with what you've said, what you've done, what you believe, it's easier for you to say yes to me. Consistency isn't about Brian always answering his email, same day, calling back the same day, following through. When I do those things, it is surely a benefit. It makes me trustworthy. When I say, kwame, I'll give you a call this afternoon, and I do it, and I have a pattern of doing that. You come to trust me, which actually ties into the principle of authority. Authority is about being an expert, but also being trustworthy. And the more I build trust, and if I'm showing my expertise, you will keep coming back to me because you view me as an authority. So that's really the difference. Consistency, as I talk about it, is about the other person, what they've said, what they've done, what they believe. But then that personal consistency adds to my authority. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. It makes a Lot of sense. And I think what people are lacking a lot of times when it comes to this understanding is not just the definition and the explanation that you gave, but also the patience that is required in order to utilize consistency, too, because we need to give them the opportunity to verbalize what they think, what they believe, and how they've behaved in the past. Right. We need to get that information, information from them. Curiosity gives us that opportunity. But a lot of people don't take the time to gather that information.

So one of the things that we talk about in the book, too, is a section that I call how to be a Listening Star, or I call it Listening stars, plural. And STARS is another acronym like Deal. It makes it easy to remember. STARS is Stop, tone, ask, restate, scribble. And what I mean by that is stop everything you're doing. Focus on tone. Because tone of voice conveys a lot about emotional state. And that is really important to gauge. Ask clarifying questions, restate what you think you've heard, how you understand that. Get connection there. Make sure that that person says, yes, that's exactly what I mean. And the S is scribble, meaning take notes. If everybody just did those five things, they would be significantly better in their patience and their ability to be effective when it comes to the skill of listening.

Yeah, And I like the word that you just used there, the skill of listening, too. Because people just think about listening as a choice. Oh, I'm just. I'm going to listen now. Okay. Right.

You could do that.

But it is a skill that we need to develop. And the one. One of the things I want to focus on is the scribble, taking those notes. So why did you feel it was so important to add that aspect?

Well, first of all, I always tell people when you're taking notes, you're not writing the great American novel. If you do that, you try to take too many notes, you will stop paying attention to what's being said. I always encourage people, you bullet point. So if somebody says something that's significant and there's a word or two that's going to jar your memory, then you don't have to interrupt. In the world of the insurance agents, if that agent was having a conversation with you and you mentioned that you had an accident a few years ago, I don't have to jump right in and say, well, Kwame, tell me everything that happened. You may tell me so I can still be patient. I'm going to note that if you don't say something, I can go back. I can Glance down and say, you know, Kwame, I was taking notes while you were talking, and you mentioned an accident a year and a half ago. Could you tell me more about that? And I'm going to take some notes there, too. I'm going to ask questions based on my experience, but it's just enough to trigger what else do I need to follow up on? Or when we would hang up, where am I going to fill in the blanks so that I have that fuller understanding.

Yeah.

And so I guess really it's scribble, not scribe. Right. I think sometimes people really try to just take everything down. It's not helpful. And you're not listening at that point either. And something that I've recognized, too, is that people appreciate when it's clear that you're listening. Of course, tone, body language, that's important. But the fact that you're actually taking the time to write things down again is just another important signal to the other person that you're actually there listening.

Absolutely. And it's okay when I say ask clarifying questions, that is the time where it's okay to interrupt, because it does show you're actively listening. And if you say something and I'm really confused, and I'm going to just get more off track if we keep on the conversation, I can just say, hey, Kwame, I want to ask a question real quick. I'm not sure I understood. So that's where I'm asking the clarifying question. You're giving me what I need, and I can say, okay, great, I understand. And then you continue on. But I'm showing that I'm engaged in the act of listening. The other thing I want to say, when we talked about this as a skill, and I always emphasize this, and I say listening is a skill, but it's not a skill that you're incapable of. So my example, Kwame, I'm five foot nine. You know me, I'm five nine. I'm 210 pounds. Used to be a powerlifter, and never one who could run and jump much. I have never been able to dunk a basketball. And you know what? At my age, my height, my build, I'm never going to be able to. A client could come to me and say, brian, you know, got this gig. It's going to pay you 50 grand, but you got to dunk a basketball on stage. I'm like, hire my friend Kwame. Be able to do is a skill I do not possess, and I will never have it. I have physical limitations. But I tell People listening as a skill starts with a choice. You can choose to stop everything you're doing. You can choose to start paying attention to tone. You can be engaged enough to ask those clarifying questions. You can make it a point to always go back and restate what you think you've heard. And you can work on those scribble sk to take notes. Every one of them is a choice and you will get better at them. But it all starts with the choice, right?

This is, this is really important too, because it's a choice and also a mindset too. Right? Because a lot of times people don't put themselves in the right mindset to. Let's think about it from the. The growth mindset perspective. Right? They make the assumption that it's a talent. No, I'm just not good at it. Or they think, oh, I'm okay, I'm good enough at it. They don't have that level of self awareness. And so for the listeners out there who say, okay, I want to get. So what are some practical steps that they can take?

Well, I would say, first of all, write down stars. Just have that somewhere so that you can remember. As soon as this thing starts, I need to stop everything that I'm doing. And I need to make this conscious choice to try to assess what I'm hearing based on tone of voice. And so that simple acronym can become the reminder. And that's really all people need, I think, to start. Keep it front and center so that you remember and see what a difference it starts making in terms of how you're engaging people and what they're saying about your ability. I will tell you, Kwame, one of the nicest things that somebody can say to you when you bring up something that's important and they go, wow, you've remembered that that means so much to the other person. And the only way you're going to do that is by being a good listener. And maybe it's taking notes and reviewing those notes before you have that next call. But you're still showing that you are doing something most other people aren't. You're conscious enough to want to know and understand that person and have an engaging conversation.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And again, actually having that down would be so powerful too, because forget which book it was. I think it was either Crucial Conversations or one of those books they said, for a lot of people, it's not that they're morally corrupt, it's that they're morally blind. They're not aware of the impacts of their actions. And here, when it comes to listening, it's a lot of awareness, too, right. Is they're not aware that they're not good listeners, and they're not aware of what it actually takes to be a good listener. And so actually having that down, just imagine starting off every meeting, just writing that at the top of every year, your paper. Right. Okay. Remember, you know what to do. Right. I think that would be really powerful.

Absolutely. Listening. You know, it's interesting, Kwame, that in all the communications coursework that we can do the teaching, right, we're taught how to read, we're taught how to write, but we're never. I don't know anybody who growing up was taught how to listen. People are told, pay attention, and you need to listen to me. But they weren't really taught a simple way to dial into that to be more effective. And so they just haphazardly go about it.

Yeah, no, I think we have our challenge for the listeners here. So that's the challenge. Use this approach. You know, write that at the top of the meeting notes, Practice taking some notes, all those things. I think that would be really powerful. And again, before we move on, just. Can you say that acronym one more time?

Sure. I always talk about listening stars, where stars stands for stop, tone, ask, restate, scribble.

Love it. Fantastic. And so let's say this. If people were to read your book and get one piece of wisdom out of it, one piece of wisdom, what would you want that to be?

That's hard to say, because everybody's going to need something different. I mean, somebody might be pretty good listener already, but they've never thought about adjusting their style to the person that they're meeting with. They're just going in with, I'm really good at building relationship, and I'm going to just ask all about their family, and it's not bad, but it may not be effective. So I really think that understanding how to more effectively deal with people is probably one of the things that most people have never really learned. Most people have probably learned a little bit about negotiating. Obviously, they listen to your podcast or they've learned about prospecting and certain steps in the sales cycle. But I think very few people have learned how to engage other people based on how they assess their personality.

Yeah, I think that's great. I agree. I agree, too, because again, one of the great oversights in our education system, not taught how to resolve conflict, not taught how to communicate at a high level, be persuasive, or listen. So I think that piece of wisdom, though, being able to analyze and assess the different personality types and adjust your approach accordingly, I think that's powerful and I appreciate that. And so for the listeners, before you go, remind them again about the book and your company and how they can get in touch with you.

Okay, so the book is called Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents. And you can find that in paperback or Kindle out on Amazon. My company is Influence People, and you can find me at influencepeople Biz B I Z. And if people go out there, they'll see plenty of links to get to the book. I've been on just almost 100 podcasts. They're all out there listed, so people can go back and some are on leadership and some are more focused on influence or sales. They can kind of go through and find what appeals to them. Been blogging for more than a dozen years every single week. So there's just a tremendous number of articles and then there's a lot of videos and preview videos to my LinkedIn learning courses. So all of that stuff, I mean, you have to buy the book and all of that other stuff is free. If you join LinkedIn Learning, I've got courses on persuasive selling and dealing with personality styles, persuasive coaching, a lot of things like that. So tremendous number of resources that are available for anybody who goes out there.

Fantastic. Brian, a pleasure as usual, my friend. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me back.

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