Mastering the Long Game in Commercial Real Estate Negotiation with Michael Copella

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Mike, thanks for joining us today.

My pleasure. Super excited to be here.

Yeah, man, I am excited to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Sure.

So, again, Mike Cappella, I lead a division of cbre, which includes our business in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and Pittsburgh, in addition to leading our business in Columbus. If you don't know cbre, we're the global leader in commercial real estate services. So we touch everything from a commercial real estate standpoint, from, you know, managing properties to helping people find and lease space. And as you can imagine right now, with everything going on in the global economy, it is. It's a fun and challenging time to be in commercial real estate.

Yeah, definitely. And this interview is right on time. And listeners, I tell you, I, Mike was testing my discipline and restraint because we were vibing and I was like, I forgot we're here for a podcast. Save it for the show. And I'm excited because, you know, we have over a thousand episodes and we're hitting on something that we haven't touched yet, which is the long game. And Mike's perspective on this is fascinating. So how about, Mike, you just set the stage for us. When we talk about negotiating the long game, what does that mean to you?

Sure. So, I mean, I think when we think about commercial real estate, it's a long sales cycle. So the transactions that we work on typically are going to involve multiple parties over multiple years. And we're usually working on transactions with a smaller group of people that we're going to see over the course of a career time and time again. So reputation and how we carry ourselves is super important. That credibility that we bring to the table when we're making recommendations or advising our clients on negotiating strategy is really built over, you know, a career. And so when we think about everything, it really kind of comes down to the long game, not what about what's going to happen a year or two, what's going to happen over 5, 10, 15 years.

Absolutely. And now here's the thing. So folks are going to hear this and they're going to say, of course, yeah, that makes sense. But then when it comes to the actual practice, we often forget this fundamental truth. So in the moment, what makes it so hard for people to keep this in mind when they're actually in the middle of the negotiation?

Well, I think certainly, you know, just the emotional component of it, you know, when we're talking about doing transactions, there's the financial side of it. You know, if the transaction goes sideways or it blows up, there is risk there that this, you know, individual or company has spent, you know, a lot of time and money on that and did not necessarily get the outcome. There's just frustration with the time that could be spent on getting to this particular point. And then there is the. The perceived loss of whatever that outcome is going to be. And that potentially could mean, you know, challenges to somebody's business. It could be, you know, challenges somebody, you know, not being able to achieve what they wanted. So they start feeling those frustrations when all those things start going sideways or don't happen. And so it's ultimate trying to find a way to keep that emotional side in check. And I do think, you know, emotion does play a part in negotiations. And I think understanding, you know, people's motivations in negotiations is super important. And look, I think you can use people's emotions as leverage potentially, like we were kind of talking about. But in the same sense, when we're advising, you know, our professionals, it's. Look, you have to think long term with everything that you're doing. Your reputation is your most important thing, given the fact that you're Going to be working on transactions with these people for probably the rest of your life.

Absolutely. And the emotions, I tell you, Mike, every time we go into this, emotions come up. And I remember I was doing this one presentation with Sotheby's one time and I had this survey I put up. I was like, what's the hardest part of negotiation? Emotion management or negotiation strategies? And it was 97%. It's like this frustrating ever present force that will have a massive impact on the negotiation. And if we don't understand how to manage it, both in ourselves and others, we're going to really struggle. And one of the things I like about your experience is that you are managing people who are high performing negotiators. And a lot of times you have to kind of talk them off of the ledge when those emotions start to take over. Can you kind of paint the picture for that?

Yeah. And it's interesting, you know, we spend a lot of time and energy training them never to hear the word no. And then I'm the guy that gets to come in and tell them no on something. It's always interesting. And I do at times have to ask them when we're negotiating for something like internally, you know, do they really care about the outcome or do they just want to win this conversation? And by the way, that disarms them so many times because ultimately I think negotiations can be competitive. And so for me, really trying to understand how invested in the outcome are they, do they really want to see that? And why they want to see it is really important. But yeah, you're right. I take more of a coaching role in everything we do with our professionals. I'm not actively involved in their negotiations with, you know, occupiers or owners of real estate. But often they're coming to me when they're trying to think about the strategy of moving a transaction along or keeping something from potentially falling apart. Some of the things we do just is understand like, are they just, you know, do they need to vent? Because I do think one of the things that we offer is that opportunity for them just to get that steam off their chest. And that is a helpful thing. And that really does help keep the emotions in check because we all carry an ego around. And when you get into these things, especially with very successful people that have gotten really incredible outcomes, you know, they do think that they have an ability that other folks don't. And so when that ego is not recognized or bruised, it can be challenging. And when I use the word ego, I wouldn't say that our folks have an outsized ego. I think we all do. I just think when you're in those complex, high pressure negotiations, one of the things you have to be really aware of is like, you know, is your ego hurting or helping you in this, in this negotiation?

Absolutely. And when you think about building the best negotiator, there's no such thing as the best negotiator. Just, let's say an effective negotiator. Let's think of it kind of like a recipe. We. It will call for a little bit of ego, it'll call for a little bit of competitive spirit. But then if you add emotions to that, sometimes, like we accidentally dump a ton of ego and then we end with a dish that's not that great. And so you don't want to like, pull away those things because that's part of what makes them great negotiators. It's about balancing it.

Yeah. And I was just. I think what we find when we are really high performing is that we have teams of people providing advice to our clients. And so usually a lead there. But I find that when we have a team of individuals surrounding a client or working on a particular project, that does provide for a lot of diversity of thought and then really just a more balanced. Yes. Strategy, given the fact that it's not necessarily just one individual.

Oh, let's talk about that. That's really cool because I think again, when we think about negotiation strategy, a lot of times we don't think about the composition of our negotiation team or fully appreciate that we are in fact negotiating as a team. Let's break down this kind of team sport aspect of this because if we can understand it, then we could really utilize that diversity of thought with intentionality.

Yeah. So I think you gotta diagnose one. How many parties are involved in the negotiation? What's the outcome that you're looking to achieve? What's the complexity of it? I do strongly believe that you have to have somebody that is. Takes ownership of one side of it. So it can't be, you know, multiple opinions. But an ideal team setup would be where you have a lead, you know, our client or whoever serving understands who that lead is, but can. But can feel comfortable tapping into some depths of other resources to get, you know, varying but similar opinions. And I think that diversity of thought that we bring there is really, really helpful when our clients are essentially usually more than one person making a decision as well too. And so I think one of the things that we've seen that's really Changed in commercial real estate, especially on the like. When I say occupier, that's large tenant side is that there's really not one person making that decision. And so if we were to talk about, like, office occupiers, folks that are going out and setting up headquarters for office space, you know, before, it maybe would just be really the CEO and the CFO that were involved in that type of decision, and now the probably 10 people that are involved in that, where you may have, like the cto, the, you know, the certainly the CFO and CEO and all your C suite, but the people team or HR now is way more involved in those types of decisions. And so having folks within our team to be able to talk to the important things that all of those individuals are looking for becomes key. Because maybe our lead is really savvy on the finance side, but there might be somebody on our team that we have built that really speak to, like, what this headquarters is going to do for them from a recruitment and retention standpoint and can talk through, like, what that strategy would look like, which is a really different strategy than what the finance side would be. So we're using all of that to knit together what our overall recommendation would be. And then, you know, look, that's probably more of a. Of a recommendations set up than a negotiation set up. But when we're having all of those experts, we're then using that to create a negotiation strategy that help our client get what they're looking to accomplish. We know, whatever that is for that particular client.

Yeah, Mike, I think this is a great example, because again, a lot of times people are negotiating as a team, but they don't really fully appreciate that. But if people can recognize after hearing this, oh, yes, we are a negotiation team, we need to operate in unison. We have to be operating from the same playbook, but each person has a different role and a different expertise. Now we can tap into those unique skill sets and backgrounds that we might not have tapped into before.

Totally.

If we have somebody who is like the dealmaker. Right. Okay, cool. We have that. When you're talking to the CFO on the other side, there's a language, like, there's some credibility that comes from having somebody who has that same financial background, who can speak that language in a way that's more persuasive. And again, going back to ego, it takes somebody who is humble. You have to have a little bit of humility to say to yourself, you know what? This is a crucial part of the negotiation. And I might not Be the best person to deliver the message. That's hard to do, but it can be really impactful.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that what I would say would be like negotiation leadership. And that's where we see there's a separation between, you know, those folks that know how to negotiate in those complex situations and those that know how to lead through complex negotiations. And they're the ones that are typically leading, you know, our highest performing teams that are working on our most complex transactions.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. And you see listeners, you can tell when we flow through this conversation too, because we did not one time talk about negotiation, like as a team in our prep. But this is so fascinating. It's so fascinating, but again, it's underutilized. And I think let's speak specifically to the aspect of diversity of thought, because a lot of times you might have a team, but you might not have that diversity of thought. You might have people who look different and have different backgrounds and think all the same way. And so we really have to be honest with ourselves to figure out who needs to be at the table, who needs to be part of the team, but not at the table. And what voices are missing because we all have blind spots. And especially going back to what we were talking about with emotionality, if our emotions start to take hold, the blind spots become bigger and even harder to see. And so there has to be some, a lot of trust within that negotiation unit to be able to speak truth to power and hold people accountable. Because we're not always going to be on the same page internally, but we still have to be in unison once we step outside and talk to the other party.

Yeah, And I think we do that. So I say, well, when I think about negotiations, I think about it just, you know, getting the winning outcome or looks like the. Well, I got a. That was weird. It's got a pop up that said check your. All right, maybe I'll tee that up. Again, sorry.

You're good. Yeah. So let's. Let's just clap twice. You can take it from the top there.

So when we think about negotiations, I kind of think about, you know, winning or getting that winning outcome for our client or for our team. And we do that through asking lots of questions from the other side or from our client to understand what we need to. To do and what we need to like, who we need to bring to the table to create that team. Because every situation is going to be really different. And I've always felt that the first, like, conversation, you build rapport through asking the right questions. And that really can show people your style, your inquisitiveness, how thoughtful you can be. And then you use all of that data that you bring to build the team that is going to have all of the resources that you're going to need to solve that problem or win that negotiation for your client. And so if you're not asking those questions and if you lead with just kind of making recommendations or talking about the things that you've done, I often find that you're not going to be able to have that diversity of thought. And so when we ask those questions, ideally it's coming with, how can we really get to know this problem or this client as well as we can right from the get go. And then, like I said, I deeply believe that you build rapport that way more so than anything else. And then ultimately rapport leads to trust. And trust to me is like how you can really win through a negotiation, by the way. So that's. So I would say, like to build the right diversity of thought, we gotta start with asking the right questions, understanding who needs to be there, and then really being very thoughtful about making sure that not only do we have the right people in the room, but they understand what their role is there. They're not just there to, you know, because they look a certain way or they're a certain age. It's because they're filling a certain role. And we really want them to own that particular role through that negotiation or through that problem that we're trying to.

Solve that's so important. Yeah, because it's. Yes, they need. They have a role to play, and then they also have to be empowered to play that role when the time is right, too. And the. I don't want to gloss over this because somebody could say, all right, ask the right questions. Okay, I'll go in and ask questions. What is it that people often get wrong when it comes to asking questions in These negotiations.

So I think that they don't ask the thoughtful questions. I think that they ask the really kind of tactile questions that everybody would ask. And so, like, in our business would be, what are like the, you know, when's your lease up? Or, you know, how much are you paying? Or what is your. Your budget? And not really like, hey, what will this real estate decision do for you? Or what happens if it goes wrong? Or what are you trying to accomplish by this? And have you ever. What was a successful one that you did in the past? And really trying to understand, because there you start seeing what are the drivers behind them making this decision? And by the way, we were talking about emotion before, too. You'll usually see in those types of, you know, situations, they're going to talk through something and probably provide like, hey, it was. The transaction was really, really stressful because this thing happened and then this created this thing for me and we weren't able to hit our goals or hire our people. And they show an emotional side of it which you then use, can then to, you know, make a recommendation or to build your kind of negotiating strategy.

I love this, Mike. This is great. Because think about this. Let's say we don't ask that question. Then we might try to replicate some success that we had in the past, which is. Which triggers this traumatic response from the other side. And there have been. There have been so many times we can think about it in our personal and professional lives. We, we're sitting here, we're doing our best, we're trying to be like, be a fair player in this thing, and somebody assumes the worst and we don't understand where this emotionality comes from. And then we just say, this person is crazy. Right? No, you might have stepped on a landmine and you didn't realize it. And so I love the examples that you gave. Because somebody might say, why would I ask what they're trying to accomplish? They're trying to buy a piece of property so they can make money. Why would I ask that? And our ego can sometimes get in the way of asking some of the most profound questions. Because sometimes the most profound question is the simplest question. And the simplest question often never gets asked.

It never gets asked. And I find that too, just from like, again, from a coaching standpoint where I'll come in and be like, ask just some of those simple questions. And sometimes our folks just haven't thought of it. They maybe move through fast or something and didn't think about that part of it. And so I really Kind of start asking very. Kind of just basic questions to understand, you know, why are we here? How do we get here? What are they really looking to accomplish? And as I said before, I do think that our most skilled negotiator, our most. Some of our most successful people that navigate complex negotiations, they really do ask a lot of questions and then think about data, those answers to build the team or to come up with a negotiation strategy.

Absolutely. And when you start to ask these questions, you start to flow a little bit. You get that rapport. And like you said, it builds trust. And from the outside looking in, it might not seem like much action is happening. We're talking about these. I'm using air quotes aggressively. Listeners who are audio simple questions. And. And it doesn't look like much action is happening. But then when you project out into the future and you recognize that one of the most persuasive tools we have in our tool belt is trust, and we've taken the time to build that systematically. Now those stickier, more difficult elements of the negotiation become just a little bit easier, and the skills that we have become exponentially more effective.

Absolutely. And what I don't understand why people don't ask questions is that most of the times the other party loves to talk about themselves. I mean, who doesn't like to answer questions about themselves, about their strategy, about their business, about their family? And it's just. It's something that I often find that sales professionals forget about that. The other side, you know, loves the fact that we're interested in them, that we want to help them, we want to get to know them, and we really should be using that more often.

Absolutely. Oh, Mike, I love this. This is great. This is really great. And I think for me, one of the most fun things about this is like. Like, no clue where the conversation's going anywhere. Such a cool place. This is amazing, man. Listen, I appreciate you. I appreciate these insights. Before you go, remind the listeners about what you do and how you can help.

Okay, so we're. We're cbre. We're a commercial real estate services firm. So, you know, wherever you're listening, we probably have a CBRE office. And so if you need, you know, help on managing your property or looking for property to buy or dispose of, we're here. We're very consultative and we're here to help.

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