Mastering the Mindset for Negotiation Success with Michael Mcgovern

My goal for us right now is that I want to take our company to a hundred million dollar or more company within three years. That's the goal. How am I going to do that? I'm going to do that by dialing in systems, processes, right people in the right seats and then going out and figuring out the next step to acquisitions, figuring out how to build connections with leveraging debt and finding investors and building a board. I know that that's where I want to go. And so for me, anything that isn't getting me closer to that, I have to decommit. I have to say no. I have to have that internal conversation to say, do I just have an attachment issue? Do I have a fear of rejection issue? So I'm just going to keep saying I'll do this and I'll do that. Like how many things in our daily life do we drag ourselves through that we are miserable to go through, all because we don't want to say no for the fear that that person might resent us, might leave us, might not talk to us again, remove all of the significance that we feel and by over committing to things.

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are.

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Dude, thanks for having me, bro. Grateful to be here.

Yes, likewise. It has been about, man. It's been like four years since you've been on the show. Doesn't feel like that because I was on your show a couple months ago and we chat every. Every time we see each other in the gym. But how would you start off? By telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So obviously, Mike McGovern, you know, again, appreciate you having me here, man. Owner, founder of Columbus Roofing Company Owner, founder, the Reckless Group, which is a entrepreneur coaching service for home service business owners. Kind of mindset development, business development. And man, just a seeker of knowledge, bro. Right? Yeah. I love the. Love what you do as far as the negotiation side and just constantly improving and speaking as well. Right. Like, that's a big piece too, man. I love that. So about being able to develop your message and kind of start to help others develop theirs through yours, man. So a little bit of everything, bro.

Yes, man. And also listeners, Mike is very humble. So, yes, he is a seeker of knowledge, but also a sharer of knowledge. So make sure you check out the Reckless CEO podcast and if you're in that industry, also the coaching that you're building out too. And what I want to talk to you about is the difficult conversations that have to happen in entrepreneurship because we talk about this all the time. But one element that we don't talk publicly enough about is the tough internal negotiation you have to have with yourself as an entrepreneur in order to level up. So how about you just set the stage, Give the listeners an idea of where you are in your business and where you have to go, and then we'll talk about the internal negotiation you're in the middle of right now.

Yeah. So right now we are coming to an end of our third year Columbus Roofing company. Right. And that's kind of the baby of everything else. Right. Like, that's the thing that I've kind of built the moat around. Right. Or become vertically integrated between coaching and media. And all that really stems from crc. When I started crc, it was a vision it was a mentor. And really out of necessity, I was kind of back against the wall, over leveraged, needed something that could produce income quick. And roofing happened to be the niche that it, that made sense. And so from there it was really self studying, self learning, and just developing and growing the business, right? I have conversations with people a lot of kind of where we're at and, you know, how we've built it, and they'll say, you know, where'd you go to school at? And I never went to college, right? And so for me, but I look back at all the years of hockey and, you know, all of that, and it was like, I think that so much of business, like, obviously there's great resources to learn through school, but I think really, you know, some of the greatest entrepreneurs kind of have that school of hard knocks kind of side to it, right? Where they're, they're survivors, they've got to figure it out, they've got to motivate, they got to inspire people. It's like, you can't teach inspiration in a textbook, right? And it can't get people fired up through that, right? And so for me, as I started the business, like, I knew that that was my wheelhouse. It was like, all right, if I can just really focus in on how to get top talent, how to get people here, how to get this vision, I can really get people in the right seats, right? I think when we're starting businesses, we're trying to do everything, we're trying to facilitate everything. And that first conversation is like, all right, bro, what do you suck at and what are you good at? And then if you suck at it, delegate it, get it off, right? And so for us, you know, we've grown 100% year over year since the birth of the company. This year we just made, or just the past few months made a big move. I brought in my CE or an integrator, right? We kind of run off an EOS model. So we've got like the visionary, the integrator, and then, you know, all your departments. And so that was a big move, man, because that's the, you know, that's the number two guy, right? That's the really, the person that facilitates and operates everything. And so it's been a challenging few years of kind of. My team's been patient with me, right, Because I know that I'm not the best implementer per se, but they've allowed me to continue to get the right people. And that was a huge move for us. But I think when we talk about that internal conversation. That's also a scary move, because now I'm. It's not so much of a control thing as it is a trust thing, right? It's like, you've built this baby, you've scaled it, you've gotten it here. And it's not a lack of willingness to give up control as much as it is to say, like, if I give up the trust, like, can I trust you with this baby? Right? Because, you know, I was at an entrepreneur summit there a couple of weeks ago, and he talked about your business is like this vase, right? And you're building this vase, and then you trust somebody with it, you hand it to, they drop it and they break it, right? And then you gotta bend down, you gotta pick up the pieces, and you're picking up those pieces, and you get a scar here, and you get a scar here, and you get a scar here. And next thing you know, over time, enough of these drops and pickups have happened, and you're scarred, and you're holding onto that internally whether you want to or not. When you've got to be able to give up responsibility and give up that trust, like, from past experiences, we hold onto it, right? And so for me, as I brought this individual in when he. And he's been with the company for a few years and. Great friend of mine, and. And. But even then, right, it's like you get a little timid to do that. And so, you know, the first. And then it's also the side of, like, we find value in our. In being needed, right? We find value in. In the fact that people come to us. Like, even if we stress about it and get irritated and say, like, man, like, go to somebody else. Like, we also fear the fact of not being needed anymore, right? And so I think that's a big piece of transition, is that I've had to really let go and say, even if it's not exactly the way that I want it to be, I trust that I made the right decision for the right people and that they were going to be able to take the vision and actually make it better than what when I could. That's been a big transition, man, to put that person in the seat and then really trust them and really kind of step back and let go a little bit and let it be. And that was kind of the first, I would say, big, big move for us as we're growing. And now it's like, okay, what do I do now? Right? I always say it's kind of like this no man's land, right? I'm just like. And you've experienced it, right? Like, every. Every evolution is that next level of, like, what do I do now? Because everything that I was doing, I've now delegated, and if I can't figure out a way to leverage that time back, well, what am I? I'm just going to spin in circles and go crazy, right? And so that kind of. So now it's like that phase of constantly saying, I think that they don't teach enough of, like, vision planning, right? Like, most of us don't sit down long enough and say, like, what do I want 10 years to look like? What do I want three years to look like? What do I want one year to look like? What do I Want three months? What do I want next week to look like? Right? And so we just become so reactive to everything that's coming our way, and we're overwhelmed because we've got no control because we're just being so reactive, right? And so I've learned through great mentors of, like, you got to be proactive all the time. You've got to constantly be seeking, saying, like, what's next? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? And for us, like, now we're saying, all right, you know, I've had a lot of conversations with private equity funds and some conversations about selling equity of the business and being able to bring in a strategic partner and really help us scale. And, like, that was a conversation, right? And because I'm. I'm looking at that and saying, yeah, that sounds awesome, they're going to come in, they're going to give us 10, 15 million. I'm going to put a couple million in my pocket, the team's going to get hooked up, we're going to have more money in the business, more resources, people that have the framework, like, that's going to be gasoline. And I was kind of almost like, convincing myself that, like, that was the move. But then as I'm going through that and having more conversations, it's like, is that the move or is that just the move? Because I don't know what the move is yet. Is that the move or is that the move? Because I'm actually scared to say I have no clue what I'm doing. I have no clue where we're going. But I got a vision that thinks that somewhat delusional, that I can pull this thing off by myself or use my resources, right? And so that was kind of a big piece. Like, I was Fully convinced that, like, that was going to be the next phase for us. Prepare everything this year, get financials lined in, get everything, get the positions locked in, sell Equity, give up 51% of the business, take money and then go. But I realize that, like, I don't want that. I realize that it's like that. That is me honestly feeling like I can't do it. And I really talked myself back out of that. Right. I'm saying, like, you know what? We're not going to do that. Sorry, guys. Right. And I think that's what a great leader does, right? They say that. I think John Maxwell says, you know, a great leader is willing to climb to the tallest tree in the jungle and then say, we're in the wrong jungle. Wow. Right. You've got to be willing to bite your tongue on things. Right? Because I can come in and I can cast a vision, and this is where we're going, and this is what we're doing. And I'm going to Atlanta and I'm talking with these guys, and they got money and we're going to. And then coming back and saying, actually, we're not going to do any of that. Actually, what we're going to do is I'm going to put the right people in the right seats and I'm going to go out. And I want us to become that. I want us to be the fund. I want to be able to. I'd rather give up 30% to an equity play for people that are in an esop. For the people in the team, and give you guys the opportunity to get that money and grow with us and build with us than me going and taking it from somebody else so that I get taken care of, but then you guys can get taken care of at a later date, maybe. Right? And so that's the. And so much of it comes from, you know, having good mentors around you, Right? Like, being able to bounce those conversations and say, like, man. And I think questioning yourself, being humble enough to say, like, does this make sense? Am I going the right direction? So often when we don't have the answers, we don't want to ask the questions either, because they think they're dumb. We think that there's a. They're above that. Right. And so being able to have this conversation, they're like, well, why do you think you need to do that? Oh, well, I don't have the money. Okay, do you not have the money or do you not have the resources to. The money? Well, I don't have the Money. Okay, so you have the resources to the money. I could potentially other resources to the money. How would you go about getting it? Talking to people, building relationships, doing what the next level of me does. Right. It's like getting out of the phase of getting above the business where it's at, that evolution of it to say, like, all right, for us now it's about the next thing is I learned how to build a great team. Now I got to learn how to build the team that helps lead that team.

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All the time.

All the time. What I love about this is that there's a really cool interplay between the external negotiations and difficult conversations you have with the people on your team, with your mentors, when you're going out and learning from other people. And like you said, you went to the school of hard knocks, which is more practical knowledge. So you know what you need to know to be effective in what it is that you do. And you do that because you are, you know, that's what it takes to be successful. And also you are driven by your curiosity. It is grit, it is resourcefulness, and it's curiosity. You're constantly asking those questions and then you bring it in and you're not just going to allow yourself to be blown by whatever the wind is telling you to go. Somebody says do this, you just do it. Somebody tells you to do that, you just do it. What I love about your approach is that you take all of this information, information from diverse perspectives. You're going to these events, you're talking to your mentors, and then you're going to sit and you're going to be quiet and you're going to embrace the silence that so many of us avoid because it's scary. And then you're going to have that internal Dialogue with yourself one day, a few days, a week, a month, and maybe even for the longer ones a year, you're thinking it through, how am I going to do it? But the thing that I really appreciate about you is that this internal negotiation isn't just that process of I'm just going to think about thinking for the sake of thinking. Because thinking alone is nice and it feels good, but it does lead to action. So then you transition that into an actual decision, which also then leads you to more external negotiations and conversations. Because you have to talk to your team. You need to get them bought in on this new vision. They need to trust you. And then as you're empowering them, you are trusting them with your vision. And I tell you, that part, that delegation part, that's the hardest part. Because you get to a point where your team is operating, your team is grinding, and you see them doing the things that you used to do and you don't recognize that the grind that you have become addicted to was once a necessity and now it's an identity. And now you're sitting, sitting here saying to yourself, well, what am I going to do with my time? How am I valuable? How am I still needed by the team? And it has this, in this almost identity crisis.

Yes.

Because from the outside looking in, it's like, hey, Mike, you did it. Now you're not out there on the roofs all the time. Now you're not out there having to make calls. You have a team to do that. And that's really scary. So when you find yourself now at this level, when you're saying, man, I'm wrestling with holding on, I know I need to delegate, I know that's the right answer, but there's something inside of me holding you back. What does that conversation look like?

Yeah, man, I mean, that's a great question. I think that so much of it is that we always know the answer. There's something to be said about this universal consciousness that exists. We all have the resources and the intuition to know the answers. We most of the time try to talk ourselves out of what we know the answer is. And I think so much of it comes down to this self discovery of like, what do I actually want? Right? Like, what does my ideal day look like? What does my ideal life look like? What is my ideal life or marriage or kid? Like, we have to get super clear on the things that we really want our life to feel like, because so much of our lives are spent working a job that we don't like, doing things that we don't like hanging out with people that we're not. We don't know we should hang out with, right? It's like you, you. And that becomes the norm until you start to break those patterns and break those cycles, right? And so for me, when I start to really go through these phases, right, Like, I like there's a worksheet that's called the Delegate and elevate form. It's basically just a quadrant worksheet. And you know, in the top left corner, it's something the stuff that you love to do and you're great at the bottom right corner is that you hate to do it and you're terrible at it, right? And the other two quadrants are like, like it good at it. Other one is like, it not good at it, right? And so much of it is like just being able to just go through those things and saying, like, what am I doing on a daily basis? Like every day, What? Like doing an audit of your time, of your energy, of where you're spending things, like, what are you doing? Because you'll start to see as you lay this out, that's like, man, I'm spending 80% of my time actually doing things that I don't find any enjoyment in, right? And so as you're, as you're having this internal conversation of delegating and what to move and what to hand off, and we have to find the clarity of saying, like, what is it that you actually want to be doing, Right? Like, I have the vision for me is that I want to be a guy that sits on boards and be able to go into a conference room and like, my day gets spent on, I get three, four hours in the morning, do my gym, do my meditation, do my prep, come in the office, give some ideas, empower, lead people, hear what everyone's got going on, build the relationships, build the connections. Spend some time on some creativity or connecting or relationships. Like, that's a good day. If I could do that every day, that's a fulfilling day. You know what I mean? And so it's like. And you know, it's really owning that and saying, like, okay, like, if that's what a great day sounds like to me now, where am I at right now and what's separating me from that? Because that's where that decision starts. Because it's saying, like, I think so often we always think the next level is more, more this, more that, more this, more, more, more, more, more. And so, because naturally that's what we think, right? Because it's like, the more things I can be doing, the more value I have, the more power I have. The. The more people look at me a certain way, the more significance I have. And it's like, we've got to get super clear of saying it's a reduction thing, it's a reducing thing. It's actually not doing more, it's actually doing less. It's less commitments, it's more commitments to yourself and less commitments to other people.

It's more.

More commitments to your calendar and respecting your time than it is to everybody else's time. Because we're naturally always going to want to do more for people than we want to do for ourselves. But the reason is, is because when we do something for other people, it makes us feel a certain way. It ties back to a value set, right? Whether it's significance, whether it's growth. Tony Robbins talks about it all the time. He's like, you've got to understand your purpose, and your purpose isn't to help people. That might be what leads to it, but there's something that helping people does for you. And that's what you got to get super clear on. Because what happens is that when we don't know exactly what does it for us now, we take on all these commitments. We take on all these things because they're all surface level triggering that value set, right? So for me, like, I'm a significance guy. I know that that's where a lot of my personal value comes from. So I do a lot of things in regards of feeling significant, right? If I make a commitment on a. With a business partner, right? It's like, well, I want to bring value to them. They need me. I feel significant. I feel like that's what I want to do because it's triggering that, right? But being able to get clear on that and knowing that is me knowing, like, okay, what's my vision? What is the actual. What's the biggest. What's the frame, right? What's the frame of where we're going? And then it's knowing that here's your frame, here's your floor. Your floor is everything that doesn't fit into that frame that doesn't lead you in the direction of where you want to go. And then your focus is below that, and that's that refocusing on the frame, right? Constantly saying, like, am I taking on things like, is this going to actually get me closer to what that goal is? Right? Like, my goal for us right now is that I want to take our company to a $100 million or more company within three years. That's the goal. How am I going to do that? I'm going to do that by dialing in systems, processes, right people in the right seats, and then going out and figuring out the next step to acquisitions, figuring out how to build connections with leveraging debt and finding investors and building a board. I know that that's where I want to go. And so for me, anything that isn't getting me closer to that, I have to decommit. I have to say no. I have to have that internal conversation to say, do I just have an attachment issue? Do I have a fear of rejection issue? So I'm just going to keep saying, I'll do this and I'll do that. Like how many things in our daily life do we drag ourselves through that we are miserable to go through? All because we don't want to say no, for the fear that that person might resent us, might leave us, might not talk to us again. Remove all of the significance that we feel by over committing to things.

This is powerful. This is. I feel like I'm in a therapy session, Mike. You know, I need this. This is good. Because what I love about this is that listeners, I want you to pay attention to the depth of this investigation. So when you're looking inside of yourself and you're trying to figure out what really drives you, what is your purpose, what is it that you're really doing? Not just the things that you like to do, but why do you like to do it and really get down deep into it, you'll see there's some kind of deep, deep emotional attachment to whatever it is. And a lot of times we just float through life without that inspection that we do to ourselves. And we just say, we just act, we just react, and we're just kind of floating through life. That's when it can feel really chaotic. But if you can take the time and dig deep within yourself, it gives you clarity that allows you to communicate and take action with clarity. So a lot of times when people are struggling in difficult conversations to set boundaries, it's because they are serving many masters. I want this person to like me. I want to help this person. I also want to make my parents proud, and I also want the business to do well. And a lot of times you cannot achieve all of those things with one decision. A lot of times you're going to have to make strategic sacrifices. And if you don't understand what your values are and how they relate to each other and how they are prioritized one versus another, you might have competing values in every decision that you're making. And you'll be unable to effectively set boundaries simply because you don't know which boundary needs to be set, because you don't know what your values are, and therefore, you don't know what direction you should be going into. So it's this clarity that gives us the assertiveness and ability to negotiate effectively. And I think a lot of times people focus so much on the skill set of negotiation. What are the skills that I need to be effective in negotiation? What are the tactics? What are the strategies? And all of those things are great, but if they are pointed in the wrong direction, you could get exactly what you want. And it could be the worst thing to ever happen to you because you've effectively steered yourself in the wrong direction 100%.

And how much of it is, I mean, state, right? What's the state that you're in? Like? I think that we just, like you're saying, right, it's like we. We pay so much attention to the strategy or the tactics of. Of what I want to pull off. I'm going into this conversation and here's what I got to do. And it's like, yeah, all of those things matter. All of those things are valuable. But the most valuable thing is like, what is. Where's your head at when you're going into these things? Where's your personal state? Right? Because the ways to change your life, change the. The your environment, right? Is change your state, change your language, change your beliefs, right? Do you believe that you can actually achieve the conversation that you're going in to have? Are you prepared for it? Did you do the work? Do you believe it? Okay, cool. You believe it. What's your state? Are you going in in a state that's like, worn out, exhausted, not feeling it, Right? Not like I tell all our guys, we say the CRC way, right? Confident, reliable, consistent. I say if you can tap into that before you walk into any sales presentation, you show up confident, you show them that you're reliable, you show them that you get the job done, and you show them that the work is consistent like that. If you can just embody what that would look like as an individual, you're already 80% into the negotiation because you have all the power when you show up with the power.

Absolutely. This is great because I think what's really interesting to me, coming into this space of negotiation, there's an academic approach, There is a approach that is used by people who are academic adjacent. So let's say there's somebody who is highly respected in business and then they get a teaching position that they teach from that. That perspective too. But then there's also that practical knowledge that I'm starting to grow in appreciation of. And it is. What's interesting is when I have folks on. They might not be able to identify and name specific negotiation techniques, but that doesn't mean that they are not exceeding exceptionally effective negotiators. And a lot of times we just. We hide behind these fancy words because we don't want to dig deeply into ourselves and figure out what we really want. So we go and we look into a text textbook and hope that the textbook or the. Whoever the thought leader happens to be can tell us what direction we need to steer our lives. And we often hide behind these skills, but we don't use those skills directed into ourselves to figure out what it really is that we want. And without that clarity, then we're still lost even if we have the skills.

And without that clarity, then you're going into a negotiation seeking an affirmation nation needing affirmation. You win a negotiation by having them affirm them. Right. It's. It's the five whys, right? Why do you want it? Why do you really want it? But why do you really want that? How would that make you feel? What would you get out of that? Well, it all. And you know what I mean, it just cycles back to the purpose. It's like it. It's just this thing of being able to negotiate is being able to be so, I think, confident in who you are and where you're at and actually having that true understanding that I'm not negotiating to take advantage. I'm negotiating them to allow them to tell me what they need or what they want and then allowing me to actually give them what they need. Too often we want to beat them over the head with what they need versus saying like, tell me what you want. Awesome. I'm going to sell you what you want, but I'm going to give you what you need because I know what it is that you actually need. You are still surface level of the one.

Yes. Well, actually, this is a good opportunity to transition too, because you are great at sales and you also are great at teaching the mechanics of sales to your team because you can take this vision and you can. That's the man. Every time I meet your team, I was like, how? How is Mike finding all of these guys that like, just like, vibe on the same level all the Time, you know, I think that's really powerful. And what's interesting about your world is that these sales kind of have to come quick. And I think a lot of times people can approach it in a really transactional way. But there's soul that you bring to this that I think distinguishes you from the rest of the industry. And I know this because you share your journey on your Instagram. You are growing out loud and in public and being incredibly generous with what you've learned in the process. So when you think about your methodology as it relates to sales and closing deals for your team, how would you describe that?

One of the first steps that I have learn to develop is that when we're mapping out a business plan, right, we say, like, who's your ica, right, Your ideal client avatar, what's your niche, who you sell into? And so everything becomes so externally focused, customer focused, right? And it has to be because obviously they're the ones that pay your bills, right? But I think that what I have developed, we call I have an icf. That's an ideal culture fit, right? And so for us, it's saying, what is that ideal culture fit? What are their personality assessments, disc assessments? What kind of skill sets do they have to have? What are. Like, there's patterns in everything, right? Everything is really first principle thinking when you can distill it down, right? And it's saying that, okay, if I look across all the sales guys, what we got the guys that are the best, what are their qualities? Ex military, ex athletes, big into fitness providers or. Yeah, most of them never came from actually any sales background. All of my best salespeople, blue collar guys that ran heavy equipment, worked in coal mines, ran project management for new home construction, Those have been my best sales reps. Why? Because just like you're saying so much of sales is textbook. And it's all these theories and it's all these methods and it's like, there's a thousand ways to skin a cat. But it's like, all of that's great, but the values and the belief systems is where it all starts. And so you've got to identify what your ideal culture fit is, because then all of a sudden, you don't have to recruit. Like, our turnover rate is probably under 10%. I don't really recruit, but I always got people. We don't really fire anybody because the right people, like a great culture is going to repel and a great culture is going to attract. So the tighter that you can build the values of the company, the Less you actually have to do from a scalability standpoint because then you're just going out and saying like, you know, we're to the point now where like we're recruiting, like I'm finding top talent. I found a guy that was a excellent server at Jeff Ruby's a few weeks ago and came in and he came in and dude, his taking off like fire. But like through conversations, through knowing what we're looking for, through just knowing enough, I knew that like this guy's going to be a great fit. I got to get this guy on the team, right? So now we're into this phase of like now we're looking for a players because we've built the foundation and we've built the credibility and we've built the brand. And so I think so much of it starts there, right? And then when you get into now your sales process, just like you said, especially in our business, I say that the worst thing about the roofing industry is that it's low barrier to entry, anybody can get in. And there's companies popping up every day now, especially as it's gotten more popular. So when you're competing against that, it's like, how do you separate yourself, right? I think that every company has to have something that it's really like, what are you great at? Yeah, you might have a hundred people in your business, but what is it that you do that nobody else does, right? And getting super clear on that because now that becomes your, your North Star. For everything that you do, right? Whether you're firing people, hiring people, it's like, can this person be great at what we're great at our focus. Because what my experience was in the business itself, right, of construction and real estate and roofing, for me, it's experience. Like what does a white glove experience feel like to somebody? Like, I want people to work with us and forget that they got a roof installed. I want people to work with us. Like I always say, like we're like, I want to be the Rolex of roofing or the, the Rolls Royce of roofing, right? Like that. And that's what I preach to my guys. I'm like, think luxury, think premium, think high end, think relationship, don't think transaction, don't think commission breath, don't think. Get the job done, right? Because that when you can build that as the, is the focus now, the sales process becomes clear, right? Because for our, then, then for us, like we have, you know, our slogan is experience class, built to last, right? And then we have our, our crc, best in class process. Right. And so so much of when you're training sales teams or building culture, you've got to have these heuristics, these things that are. Guys don't have to think about how to be right. And so for us, with our best in class process, then we break class down for each step of the process. So it's consultation, listen, align, superior install, satisfaction guaranteed. So now they know exactly where they're at. They don't have to necessarily. It's like, I'll give you the framework, you get framework guesswork or hard work, which one you want? I'm gonna give you the framework. You have to. I gotta tell our guys that your process is your product. Right? I can give you the outline of it, but how you people buy from people. So, like, I'm going to tell you how it needs to be. But what's your consultation like? Here's what we need to make sure we cover. Here's what are in the guidelines of that. But what's that process look like for you? What's that listening phase look like? Are you listening to them? Are you being intentional? Are you being present? Right now we get into aligning. It's saying, with aligning, does this person even make sense to work with? Because if they're not my ideal client, if this isn't what I want, like, I'm not going to proceed into this deal just because I need to close something. Because I know that just taking something or committing is going to then get me the wrong direction again. Right. And so it's being able to say, like, building these steps into your sales process or culture product. Like, I got a. We got a book that's called like culture Code. And it's got our core values in there. It's got like, what leadership is. It's got all of these little things. And we start a meeting off, it's like, all right, guys, core values. Get your culture books out. Who don't have their culture book. You don't have your culture book. 20 pushups in the front of the room, like, that's how we run it. You know what I mean? But it's like because of seeing what I did in a, in a hockey locker room and like that camaraderie, it's like, that's really what people want. People want to be able to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves.

Yeah.

Oof.

That's powerful, man. That's perfect. That's great. And before we go, there's one part that you Said in passing that I really want to just really hammer home here. And you said, when you have a strong culture, it attracts the right people and repels the people who would not be a good fit. And I think about when it comes to negotiations too, a lot of times when you have really strong values, it will attract the right deals and repel the wrong deals. And so many times people struggle in negotiation not because of strategic issues or tactical issues. And sometimes they put all the blame on the other side. Sometimes we are trying to make deals happen that just should simply never happen. And when you think about the different mindsets, you have the scarcity mindset and we have the abundance mindset. A lot of times it's the scarcity mindset at play because you say, hey, this is my only path to success. This person, this individual, this deal is the only thing that I have access to and that's what I'm going to go for. So come hell or high water, I am going to make this thing work. But instead, if they had an abundance mindset, they would go into the negotiation, they wouldn't be as defensive or needlessly aggressive. They wouldn't be trying to force the other side to do things that weren't against their, that were against their best interest. They would be able to sit back and just authentically flow and be more honest as well and say, this is what I need, this is what I can do really well. And to be honest, this is what I cannot do really well. Let me know if this works for you. And then you just start to attract the right opportunities. It works in sales, it works in negotiation. But again, it takes a really strong person to be able to do that. But also it takes a really strong leader to be able to get your team to trust that kind of process. So when it comes to really buying in to the values of the organization, how is it that you communicate that to these new people once they're in?

And I think that so much of that, you know, comes down to this majority of scarcity mindset is driven by ego, right? And for so many people, this ego is, you know, that's all those things. It's the fear of rejection, it's the less the disconnect between self, it's all of that, right? And as a, a leader, you're the ceiling. As the leader, everything is going to fall and rise at your ability. And so, so much of it is, I think as leaders we get lazy, right? We grinded, we got momentum, we started. And for me it's like that Next phase, I could easily say, next phase is Mike's doing less. Mike's going to kick back, Mike's going to enjoy it. I'm going to take some money, I'm going to take some trip, I'm going to. And we fall into that trap, right? And what happens is that in order to continue to scale, you have to continue to be the example, right? And so for me, when I look at, you know, how do I continuously keep the things and the momentum and the alignment with everybody around? It's like I do that by keeping alignment with myself. I'm so aware to say, am I going down a path? Am I overdoing this? Am I lacking moderation? Am I addicted? Is it a habit? Is it a what? Is it. Because so often when as entrepreneurs, man, it's lonely, you ain't got no one to talk to, you ain't. You don't have anything, right? And so it's like, then we get this internal, combative conversation with ourself of letting ourselves down and disappointed in ourselves and regret and all the things, right? And so we start to just beat ourselves up. And then that resonates through an entire culture. And so for me, it's like. Like me going away for two weeks and coming back, like, my biggest takeaway was that, like, you're great, Mike, at energy, you're great at vision, and you're great at finding the right people. If you're doing anything that isn't making you better at that, then you're doing the wrong things. If you're doing things that aren't in alignment with that, then you're doing the wrong things. And so for me, the way that I can continue to keep everybody moving is by keeping myself moving, keeping, you know, and being hard on myself, right? And making sure that it's like, man, like, I gotta be the example. I can't tell you to do something and then you not see me do it, right? We have a great culture because people have seen me do every piece of the things that need to get done and support and listen and make it about everybody else other than myself. When people see a leader that's selfless, like, they want to emulate that, they want to be like that. And I think that, you know, again, you got sales processes and negotiations and the operating, all of those things, but everything always is going to come back to the individuals. All of my coaching, 90% of the times comes out of coaching the mindset of other entrepreneurs, not the business. Business is simple. People are complicated. The game is people Game, right? The game isn't you build a business. The game is you build people who built the business. And it's constantly keeping that in front of mind. But that's also that. That hard thing too, right? Of like you can't over give. So you gotta like make sure you gotta fill your cup. You gotta figure out what's those things that I need in my life to be my best version of me, to show up every day so that I can show up and be that person. Because I'll have my seasons where I'm a recluse and I'm in my office and I'm doing a bunch of shit that I shouldn't be doing because I'm just like anxious and I'm fighting the thing that I know I need to do, but I'm not doing it. I'm avoiding it, right? And so it's. It's so much of like. And even the business, everything I go to, it's like every single time I go away and come back, it's like, you're the fuck. It's you, bro. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't need more business knowledge. I need more self knowledge. I need to understand me more. Every level is understanding yourself to a deeper level.

This is so good, Mike. And we're. We're already way over time, but this is how it goes. When you and me.

I was.

I love. It is great because every time we chat it goes on forever. But I think it's necessary and, and I know just because I can see the stats, I know the audience loves this too. When you come on and share wisdom. So listen, Mike, I could keep going, but I know we have to land this plane, but I know there are a lot of people who are listening and would want to learn more about you. Before you go, can you just remind them about your podcast and how they can get in touch?

Yeah, man. So the Reckless CEO podcast, you get out on all major platforms and best way to probably connect with me is through social, right? Instagram. Michael McGovern. M I C H A E L M C G O V E R N R C E O that's my handle. So you can find me on there. You can DM me. That's the best way. I try to get back to everybody as well. And so, you know, and then I'll obviously, you know, call me. If you have anyone that is interested or wants to connect directly with me, you can always feel free to send them my way as well. So, man, any way that I can add value to what you got going on, brother. Just keep me in the loop.

I appreciate you, man. Another incredible episode. Thank you so much for coming back on.

Yes, sir brother. Thank you.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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I'll catch you later.