Mastering Tough Talks: Strategies from Henri Nkuepo on Immigrant Negotiation Success

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Henry, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me, Kwame man.

It is my pleasure, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, thank you. Thanks again. I'm a risk management professional and also a mentor to many young immigrants. And I'm the author of the New Immigrant Playbook and the co host of the Diaspora Podcast. My wife and I are both hosts of that podcast where we talk to immigrant like us, I mean immigrant and first generation citizen about their personal stories and professional successes and they share those stories so that other people who are coming to this country or any other country around the world can learn from those stories. I'm also an aspiring speaker. I'm hoping to be able to speak to students and their faculties and then to talk to employers who employ immigrants. And I'm happy to also talk to NGOs who are helping refugees and new immigrants to this country or any other countries, and to international organizations as well. Before my current role as a risk management professional with Wells Fargo, I worked at the World bank where I was an in house counsel doing some negotiations with government Officials around the world.

Fantastic. Yes, thank you. This is great. I've been looking forward to this for a while. And listeners you might not know, because of my ability to code switch, this is my business American accent. But my family's from the Caribbean originally. Dominica is where my dad is from, and Guyana is where my mom is from. From. And when I showed my mom the title of your book, the New Immigrant Playbook, she was so excited and at the same time, so disappointed because she said, I just wish I had something like this when I came to this country. And ever since she took it, I have never seen the book since.

So that's actually good to hear, because the idea when I was drafting, writing the book, was to share my stories. I'm originally from Cameroon. I grew up in a small village to subsistence farm. And as I was traveling from Cameroon to South Africa and now to the United States, there are a lot of challenges that I face on the way, especially because English was not my first language. I had to be able to find a way to finance my educations and things like that. And also, when you come to the United States, there are some informations that you don't always have access to or that, you know, it's not easy to find in one place. I just thought that writing that book and putting all that information in something and lessons that I learned throughout the way was a good way to help other immigrants like me.

Absolutely. And so, Henry, the cool thing about you is that you have a lot of experience negotiating at a high level within your time at these large institutions. And then here with what you're doing, you're really giving back to the community, showing people what they can do to be successful when they're entering new workplaces and new countries. And so for the people out there who are listening, they might say, well, Kwame, okay, this sounds nice. Well, why are we talking about this in terms of negotiation? So for the listeners out there, tell us why. Just this, the story, the principles that we can glean from this, and really, the key parts of this are going to be beneficial not only to new immigrants, but also people who have lived in this nation for a long time.

Yeah. One thing I want to say that I've not always been a negotiator. Right. I have stories of times where I never negotiated. And then at the end, I would bank my head. I'm like, what happened to you? Right. And I worked at the World bank, and I did all those negotiations. But before I get to that level where I could negotiate being around the table. As the lawyer representing the World Bank. I was that young immigrant who had to accept the job and maybe negotiate the salary. I didn't do that, you know, so. And then as time passed, I started to realize that, hey, I think I made a big mistake. But I'll tell you a little bit about a story that I'm still kind of ashamed about, because that's when I moved to the United States. And then I accepted the job at the World bank in 2012. And when the job offer came, I just accepted. And I didn't even take the time to read all the small things in the offer. I was just so excited. I had this salary. I've never had such a salary before. And, you know, the job offer was coming from the World Bank. I thought I was just so lucky. And then what I realized a few weeks in the job was that my colleagues who came with me at the same time as legal associate, they had been in the country for some time, and some of them were American, and they were thinking that the salary that we're getting was not enough considering the Market, Washington, D.C. and also considering the fact that we were graduates from law schools, right? They call us. We sat around the table, around lunch, and we're talking about our salaries. They're like, we have to figure a way to go to the legal associate manager to talk about this situation. And I remember telling them, guys, I think we should kind of slow down a little bit. We must consider ourselves lucky to be here today because there are a lot of people out there trying to be in our places. They just looked at each other and kind of like, what is he talking about? I guess, but that's. I've never really talked about it again with them, but. And that just came from the fact that I was young, inexperienced, and I just accepted a job as at a prestigious organization. But I never really took the time to understand what was in there, what should I should. I had negotiated, and I never did that. But so today when I write a book like that, I also talk about those type of stories. And then I want to hope that people who are reading the book today are going to understand that when you accept a job, you want to be able to negotiate. Negotiation is not just looking at how much money am I making at the end of the pay period. There are a lot of things that you have to take into consideration, especially as an immigrant, for example, you want to look at, where am I going to be living? What's the cost of living in that area? And then, of course, you also want to be looking at what is the compensation package. So things like that are things that I think I would like to be able to talk about and share with others so that they understand that being where I am today, having worked at the World bank, doesn't mean that, you know, it's always being like that in terms of negotiations. Right.

Makes a lot of sense. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in this that we can all learn from. Right. And so the first thing is the power of mindset. Because the mindset that your colleagues had at that time, they said, listen, I know my value and my value is more than what I'm currently earning. And that is compelling me to then ask for more. And then for you, at that point, this was the first job that you got in the States. It was a prestigious job at the World bank, not just the, like the World Bank. Right, I know. And so you said, I am quite happy where I am and I don't want to risk this, this position. I've recognized that this is a mindset that, that happens a lot with immigrants, happens a lot with minorities, and especially if you are somebody who it might, you might be a first generation college student or somebody who is really blazing the trail for your family or community, doing something new compared to everybody else that, you know, you're doing so much better. I am happy. I don't want to. And so we have to understand that mindset in order to overcome it. Right. We have to think differently about it and then we can move forward. But if you really don't know that there is another way to think, then you wouldn't even know that a change needs to be made.

Yeah, that's true. That's very true. So there is that lack of knowledge, Right. The first aspect of it. And the other one is a challenge that I think is just has to do with maybe feeling maybe a little bit insecure, knowing where you come from and knowing what you're looking at, you don't have the time to definitely say, hey, let me stop a little bit and think about this. Is this fair or is it not fair? No, people don't think about that. When the job comes, the job offer comes, they click yes without reading everything. And what I'm trying to tell people is that you have, especially as an immigrant and being in those situations, there's a lot going in your mind. It could be that your papers depend on that job offer and you don't have the time to look, you just want that paper and you forget that you can actually negotiate to get better or maybe to get a better offer. Right. But people don't always have the time to think about it. So that challenge and also thinking that they may have to engage in some form of difficult conversation because that's what it is. How are you going to start from your position asking your employer to give you more money? When you have other issues like getting your paper renewed, you end up getting a job and starting supporting your families back home. And here you say, they say I should negotiate. So they are afraid. They don't want to engage in that. Recently I conducted a short survey. I'm still receiving responses for that survey. Ask many immigrants. I've received more than 110 responses so far. Why did you negotiate your first salary when you move and you live, I mean, when you move to the country where you live today, and then if you didn't negotiate, why were you, Is it because you were lucky, you thought you were lucky to have the job, thankful to have the job, or is it because you didn't know that salaries were negotiable? And many people respond and tell you, I mean, the majority of the responses that I've received is that I didn't negotiate because I was afraid of losing the offer. I was afraid, I didn't know that salary was negotiable. I was thankful for the job. And so when you hear things like that, you can talk that people, they don't have that mindset of I can negotiate my salary. They have a mindset of, thank God I get this job.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Right. And I remember when we spoke, I think it was last week, prepping. You mentioned there was somebody who said in my country, salary negotiation wasn't even an option. Right?

Yeah, yeah. One respondent said that this was someone in Italy. They said that salary in Italy is not negotiable. I just stopped a little bit and thought about it. I was like, is this Even possible. Right? So you just think, you would think that in terms of negotiating a salary that would be the same everywhere. It's like something universal. But people to say that it goes to tell you that, you know, there is still kind of a lack of information out there about people and their salary. Some other people will tell you that, hey, the job offer, the job description had a salary that was already there. So I didn't negotiate. I was like, yeah, that's what they propose. Right. The job description is like a proposition. When you accept that, it's like a call for come, let's negotiate. But people don't think of it like that. They think that it's the offer itself and it makes it difficult to always negotiate. And another thing, and I'll be quick here, another thing is that people, when they get a salary, let's say $50,000, they convert it into the currency of their own country, where they come from, right? So if somebody, let's say, is from India and they get a salary of 50,000, they live in D.C. they quickly convert. That is more than 3,000 rupees, Indian rupees, 3 million amendment. And then imagine someone. And so when we say 3 million rupees, you want to also look at the median or let's say the common salaries in India or Delhi, right? You see that the common salary days around maybe 900,000 rupee, but you're making 13 million rupees. Why would you want to negotiate?

Yeah, that, that is something that I've heard pretty frequently too, because they, they are always thinking in the context of their, of their homeland. Right. My, my family did the same thing. You're always thinking, okay, what is this at home? My goodness, I am doing well at home. Well, you're not home. You have American expenses. That's the challenge. And I think it's really challenging too, because you almost feel as though you're in some kind of alternative universe. Because you said, yeah, when I calculated the money beforehand, it feels like it felt like a lot. And then I came to the States and now I'm earning it. I see it coming into my bank account, but it doesn't feel the same, doesn't feel like I thought it would. And they feel like the negotiation opportunity has passed or they feel a little bit deceived, but it's a frustrating position to be in.

Yeah, that's true. And another thing is that as soon as they accept the salary 50,000, they divided by 12, they say, oh, that's about 4,000 per month at the end of the month, they get something like 3,800 or 2,800. They start asking themselves, what did that employer do to my money? They forget that what they actually got was the gross. So you want to invite people when they receive a job offer to take the time. You don't have to respond immediately when the offer hit your inbox. You have to take a day. Sometimes they can actually give you up to a week to think about it. And that's for you to think about and decide on how to negotiate. You can negotiate for something else other than asking for higher pay. You could say that, hey, what about I work remotely because I cannot afford living in the city where you are based with that salary, right? Or what about a better health package or things like that? So people don't think in terms of that. And the idea is that they don't have the time or the mindset to start deciding or thinking that, hey, I could actually negotiate this and get a better deal than what is being offered.

Yeah. Oh, that's great. And in your experience, your personal experience and things that you've seen from fellow immigrants, what are some other areas where negotiation could be a challenge?

I come from Cameroon, as I mentioned earlier, and in Cameroon, I would take the example of Lagos. On the street of Lagos, you could negotiate anything. So when someone offers, tells you that I'm selling this dress for like 200 naira, you know, that dress should be somewhere around 75 or 100 nairas, right? You negotiate. But when people travel out of that culture and they come to a country like the United States, it's different. They also, like I mentioned earlier, there's again insecurity in terms of negotiating or thinking in terms of can I negotiate this, can I negotiate that for them? It's a very difficult conversation to even start. For example, if someone is hiring a service provider to their home to get something fixed or do this or there around the house, when the contractor sends them the contract, they automatically think that, oh, this is how much it should be and they go ahead and pay for it. That's not what they should do. I call them to think and decide to do research about what they are being offered. Like, how much are you being charged for the labor, how much are you being charged for the part and how much are other companies charging for that same service? You want to take that time and negotiate. For example, recently we got our doors and windows replaced and the contractor said that 20,000 for the high end, 16,000 for the middle one, and then 12,000 for the cheaper one. I was like, I don't want the cheaper one. I don't think I can afford the highest one, but can I get the middle? Can I get the higher one at the price of the middle one? They were like, so you want to get 20,001 for 16,000? I was like, yeah. He was like, let me talk to my manager and I'll get back to you. I was like, take your time, I'll wait. He went and spoke to his manager and then he came back. He said, oh, my manager said, you can actually do it. So we just meet you in the middle somewhere around 18. I was like, yeah, we can do that. Right. So if I hadn't asked, you think that everything that they were telling you is just in your favor and that they're doing all these favors? No. You want to know how much are you charging me for this and that before you decide on, yes, I'm going to go with you. But many people don't do that because they don't know. If you go to Best Buy, I'll ask, where is the open box items? I'll go to the open box section and look for items that are open box. They're still new. Recently we bought washer and dryers for less than thousand dollars, which if we were to buy those new, we're going to have to spend like 1600. Right. So you have those small things that people don't know that I encourage them to do on a day to day.

Yeah, this is great. And it's a great example of why we named the podcast Negotiate Anything. Because I want people to start thinking about it. Negotiate Anything. Oh, I could negotiate this. Right. And it's a good mental exercise too, just to kind of flex those negotiation muscles every once in a while and say, all right, let me at least try, Let me ask. And simple rule that I like to follow is that the higher the price tag, the more room there is for negotiation. If I'm buying something for a dollar and I'm negotiating, I mean, we have very little wiggle here. But the example you gave with $20,000 with the contractor. Yeah, there's some, there's some fluff built into that. Yeah, I think that's a great example.

That's it. And when you negotiate good at the end, you can actually pay tips, Right? Seriously. I hired, I needed to replace the bathroom exhaust fan. I contacted a few contractors and say, oh, for me to come out, you have to pay me $59 for the coming out fees. I was like, okay, I don't need You. The other one said, I guess my job was too small for him. Right. So I don't need you. So you paying $15 for them to come out, and then you have to pay for the part and for the label. That brings you up to about 200 something. I'm like, I don't need you. I look at the other one, and then they said, oh, we're going to do this much. And then I talked to three contractors. The third one said, I'll do it for 1:10. You have to buy the part. I was like, okay, what about I buy the part and then you do the. Do you just do the label for $90? He did that. He accepted. Right. He came. We had a deal. So at the end, when we're doing, I still helping around because I had to go up in the crawl space and help with pushing things here and there. At the end, I gave him 110, which he asked for. But I had that option because I had negotiated it down to $90 for the labor, but I could now put in some more.

This is so brilliant. Because the thing is, if you would have just paid 110, his level of gratitude and excitement would have been, let's say, you know, like an 8 out of 10. Great, I did the job. And then this time you negotiated him down, then gave him the tip. Now his enthusiasm and excitement is 9 out of 10. Because, like, I wasn't expecting that.

You.

You changed his expectations, and then you were able to give more with what you got. I think that's a. That's a great example of how. Of how this could work.

Yeah, definitely. Because you want. When you are buying a service, you want to be able to get a better service and to make sure that the contractor, when they are living, they're happy. If they come at a higher end, chances are that at the end you must find something that didn't do right or that in the time you want to pay, you kind of just feeling like, is it even worth it? And then you're not really happy with the job. Right. You want to make sure that you are in a place where you feel comfortable and that they are happy. You are happy. You can even tip them. And that's what you make. You keep good friends, and then everyone is happy.

Yeah. Oh, that's great. I love that example. I know you also have another example about health care. And I think this is something that most people, even Americans, wouldn't even consider doing, but negotiating in health care. And it was funny. My dad's a surgeon. And you know, I think about him like, man, do I want a discount surgeon. Probably, probably not. But the way that you talked about negotiating in health care is a little bit different from that. It's more nuanced. I thought that was really interesting. Can you tell the audience about that too?

Oh yeah, definitely. So in many countries people don't have health insurance. So when they travel to other countries where they are required to have health insurance, they would normally feel hesitant. And when they do get it, they don't know how to use it and they end up with huge bills. Right. What I'm telling people is that when you are meeting with the doctor, you want to know exactly how much you're going to be paying and then you want to know whether your insurance covers that. If your insurance doesn't cover, you have to make sure that you look for something within the network. But if you are going to have a surgery and maybe they have to put you kind of down, you want to be able to control everything that happens in the room when you are not capable of talking. Right. And so what I advise people is that before you go under, you want to remind them because they'll give you all those papers to sign and things like that. You are not in a greater position because you are sick and you just want to get things done. And the idea is that you trust your doctor and they're going to come and do everything in your, in your best interest. But you know, we are in a cost for service thing. They just give you, the more they give you, the more money they will get. Right. And so what you want to do is when you're signing those papers, you want to write there that what I'm under, please don't let anyone who is not in my network to touch me. Right. And you want to do that at that time because at the end it's going to be too late. You want to negotiate that in when you still in a position to negotiate. Because if it goes in the accounting system, the best you could do at that time may be for you to sign up for a payment plan. So you want to make sure that everything is that everyone who is touching you when you are under anesthesia is within your network and has the right to touch you at that time because you've given them that right. Another example is when you're visiting a doctor, you also want to be able to know that I'm being charged for this and that I shouldn't be charged for this other one. I went to the doctor In 2018 I just moved to Charlotte. And then I wanted to see. I went to see a doctor. I was going for my annual checkup. My insurance was paying for it 100%. I came in. I'm comfortable about everything that, you know, I'm saying to the doctor. Doctor asked me any question. I answered at the end. They sent two bills to the. To the insurance. Insurance pays one and doesn't pay the other one. I found out only after they sent me a bill. I'm like, what is this bill for? It didn't have any detail on it. It didn't tell me what I was being paid. They just said that, oh, insurance page for this and this one, you have to pay. And then I called them. I was like, what's going on? That's when they explained that, oh, last time when you were here, the doctor asked you this question about medication, and you answered, so that was not part of your annual checkup. So it was medication management. So you have to pay. I'm like, so if the insurance doesn't pay, it means that there's something wrong. So they say, oh, there was two. There were two visiting one. I'm like, two visiting one should. I've answered all the questions that the doctor asked me during the visit. So they say, okay, we reduced the pricing. So they said, I have to pay the other one. I just said, I don't think I should be paying for this. But we kept talking, talking, and then we're still talking about that. Right. But that's just a way of letting people know that, you know, when you're meeting with your doctor, it's true, it's your doctor. You expect it to know what they're telling you or to accept what they're telling or to trust in them. But you also have to be mindful of the fact that they are there to make money and that you should be able to understand what service you're receiving and how much you are being charged for so that you can negotiate. Because after that, it will be too late. Yeah.

And I think I feel like everybody feels like an immigrant whenever they enter the healthcare system. And this is as somebody who has a dad, as a doctor and a wife who's a doctor, and my chief operating officer, Catherine here, who now transitioned into the business world, she's a nurse. And I still feel thoroughly confused at what's happening. And if you're from a different country and you say, yeah, okay, so what is this network talk even, right? What does this even mean? How can I have two visits in one? How Can I be charged twice for one visit? That doesn't make sense to me. And I think really the approach that you used was so powerful. First with the first example, you preemptively addressed it. You said, listen, before this even comes up, everything needs to be within my network. And that. I just wanted that to be clear for everybody. Now you're on notice. So you've taken care of that problem before. It began with the other one. What you've demonstrated is the power of curiosity. You're asking, how is this even possible? A lot of people just get the bill and they say, I guess I just didn't understand it. Let me pay the bill. Sometimes they might. It might be ego. I don't want them to feel like I'm ignorant or something, so I don't want to look stupid, so I'll just pay the bill. Right. But he said, I'm going to ask a couple questions. And by just maintaining your curiosity and just asking simple questions like, where did this come from? How is this possible? How was I supposed to know that in the moment? Then you're able to improve your situation just by using curiosity in that moment.

Yeah. And the doctor is you trust your doctor. And so when your doctor asks you things, you supposed to be transparent. You would think that in a situation like that, the doctor is supposed to be the one telling you that, hey, by the way, this question that I'm about to ask you is not within the scope of our visit today. Do you still want me to ask that? But that's not how it works. They just ask you and then they send you a bill. Right. So they just rely on the fact that, oh, our customers, they're not going to be asking questions. They trust us. Again, we talked about lack of knowledge. Those are things that. It just goes to say that people find themselves in a lot of situations financially because they don't have the knowledge or because they don't know that they can negotiate. And negotiation is not actually asking for the bill to come down. It's understanding what you're paying for and being curious to know so that you know whether it's fair or not. Because at the end of negotiation, everyone should be happy. And you want that. The happiness will come from the fact that the price that each party is paying is fair, the service you're receiving and the money you're paying is equal. And that's negotiations.

Exactly. Oh, Henry, this is great. This is really great. I appreciate you taking the time with us again and really with the book. One of the things you Mentioned at the beginning in your intro, you said that you enjoy serving as a mentor to a lot of people as they're coming in. And I really think that you've essentially scaled your mentorship with this book by taking the wisdom that you've learned and sharing it with other people. So just kudos on that. And before you go, let the listeners know about the book, how they can get in touch with you, and also about your other podcast, too.

Yeah, of course. Thanks again. And thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be here. Yeah. The book, New Immigrant Strategies for success in your new country. Basically, I have 90 days planned, six months plan, one year. So things that you have to do within the first year when you come to a new country, that's how the book is divided. And so here you learn about how to start thinking about learning language, how to start thinking about getting your education evaluated, and things like that. The book is available on Amazon, and you can access it through the book's website. Also, New Immigrants, I have my personal website, Henry Kuepo. It's Henry H E N R I and Kwepo is N K u e p o.com and you could just click the link to Amazon to purchase a copy there. I really appreciate that. And of course, if the book is not for you, if you think it's not for you, please recommend it to a person or two that you think would benefit from having the book. And about the podcast, we are everywhere where you can find a podcast and, you know, Apple Podcast, Google, Amazon Music, and then Spotify. So please follow us and then you'll hear some of those great stories that we've put up for our audiences. Thank you.

My pleasure. And everybody links in the description of the podcast, so Henry, thank you again. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Kwame, thank you so much for having me.

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