Mediation and Negotiations the Irish way with Enda Young

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Foreign thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me, Kwame. Absolutely delighted to be here.

Yes, we are delighted to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Thanks, Kwame. Well, first of all, again, thanks for having me on. As I was saying just a minute or two ago, you know, I've been using your podcast to tell a lot of my students to go, go listen to this podcast if you want to hear some of the. The most influential people in our. So. So just to say that up front, you know, so thank you, man. Myself, my name's Andy Young and I have been involved in conflict resolution, negotiation, mediation, one shape or form other for about 20 years. I'm currently the managing director of Mediation, Northern Ireland. And I've. I kind of joke with people. I'm a recovery mechanical engineer. That was my, that was my original degree. But I got involved in this work early as a teenager and maybe I can tell you a little bit about that as well of why I do what I do. I guess so. That's me.

This is great. And I've been excited to have you on the show for months now. Thank you for your patience when it came to scheduling. And you have such an interesting background because you have the negotiation background, you have the mediation background, but then also where you're from, Northern Ireland. Ireland. And I feel like people don't fully appreciate the conflict that was happening in that area of the world. And so can you start off by telling us a little bit about that story and how that impacted your journey?

Absolutely. Kwame I suppose my own journey started when, when I was a teenager. I was about 16 or 17 years old, and I got involved in what we would call cross community work then, you know, largely, I mean, bluntly speaking, between, you know, people who would identify as Catholic and people identify as from a Protestant background. For myself, you know, in the context, you know, we had our Good Friday Belfast Peace Agreement, you know, in 1988, but before that we'd lost about three and a half thousand people, and with injuries of over 50,000 people had been injured during our conflict or our troubles. And this month in particular is the 35th anniversary of one particular bomb by the IRA in Enniskillen. And that particular bomb, I guess my connection with it was in that bomb. At the time. Two particular individuals were caught up on it, one called Gordon Wilson and his daughter Marie. And when the bomb went off, they buried both of those individuals in the rubble. And Marie was buried in the rubble with her father, Gordon. And her last words that he had heard her say at the time were, daddy, I love you very much before she passed. And what was famous at the time was Gordon was then filmed by the BBC. And you know, how horrific a circumstance that was. He said at the time, I bear no ill will, I bear no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life, you know. And at that time, you know, you know, at that time I was 25 years of violence, you know, it had a huge impact, particularly emotionally. And it became known that, you know, what Gordon said at the time really did stop retaliations at that moment in time for that particular bomb. And from his, I guess that act of reconciliation or act of, I don't know, not forgiveness, but what he said and how he said it, then the organization grew out of that. And he set up called the Spirit of Inner Skill. And that organization, basically every year, 50 young people went away. Each group had 10 people, five girls, five boys, boys, five Catholics, five Protestants. And you went on an eight month program. And I was one of those people who went away on that program. I am. I ended up. We ended up being in Maine, Penobscot, in a job corps for a few weeks. Ended up, you know, learning the basics of facilitation, conflict resolution, conflict analysis and things like that. And during that program, when we came home one day, this two people came into the organization and did a one day training session and mediation. And I remember, I must have been 17 at the time. And I remember just going, wow, what is that? And how do I Do that for the rest of my life. Right. So. So. So I did my engineering, got my degree, and kind of went back and switched from mechanical engineering to my master's in theory, culture and identity. Really focused on conflict transformation. So. So that was a bit of a shock to the system, but. But. But again, it's what I said. A lot of people, when I'm coaching them as well, I mean, it's like, regardless if I think difficult it was, you got to fight or follow that bit of fire in your belly. Right? You know, why do you do what you do? And I kind of down the line, I'm glad I made that choice because it defined me. Right. You know, and it is that thing that gives me passion, you know, and it's. It's. It's, you know, the whole Simon Sinek of the. Why? You're right, you know, that. That. That's my kind of purpose, I think, you know. So because of that, then, I've been lucky to have done an awful lot of work nationally, internationally, lecturing, training, working with everyone, some of the world's major companies in Dubai, Malaysia, working a lot with the World Health Organization. Lecture in University Belfast. And I know, currently I'm the managing director at a mediation, Northern Ireland. Come back to that. It was that organization which trained me 20 years ago, and I'm now, I guess, trying to see what they do over the next 25 years. Right.

Wow, that is incredible. Just kudos to you. It's an incredible story, and your perseverance and focus in this is really inspiring. And then also for me, it's cool to see that there's so many people around the world having the same kind of awakening, like how you went through that program and you said, mediation, what is that? I want all of that. I want that in my life. Right. And so for me, it was negotiation and conflict resolution is like, how do I. How do I make that happen? So it's really cool to see you matriculating and, like, growing in this and then helping spread this message throughout the world. So kudos to you on that.

Thanks, Kwame. And, you know, I listen to your podcast, and you see it was the world of mediation that got me into negotiation. Right. And I love that idea of the fundamental basics underneath it, because for me, regardless of where you are in the world, people are people. Hurt is hurt. Harm is harm. You know, the cultural nuance changes, the lens changes. Right. The amount of money might change, but the fundamental belief. And that's what I've seen wherever I've worked Is the fundamental thing that makes us us remains the same. And it's the unpacking of that that becomes really interesting.

Yes. Well, let's start unpacking it. Let's begin this interesting journey. This is great. Let's start. So one of the things that you talked about was the intersection between negotiation and mediation. Tell us more about that.

Again, it goes back to the idea of, and I may be even coaching sometimes into that as well, a little bit. Right. But maybe I'll come back to that. I think that that idea of how do we strive for alternative dispute resolution mechanisms, what are the other ways of dealing with conflict outside of violence? Right. Outside of the more destruct elements. And for me, the relationships and the skill sets between negotiation and mediation are the same. Right. I mean, the stuff that a lot of your speakers and a lot of your listeners will be very okay with. How do we listen, how do we paraphrase, how do we summarize, how do we focus on dialogue and not just debate and all of those elements? So I think there's a fundamental connection there. I think then when you look at the similarity between, for example, mediation and coaching, which I think, which for me a lot of these sit within that same spectrum, the belief that the person in front of you has the answer. Right. You know, and as a mediator, that's we're here to the teaser defined and the belief is I'm not there to fix it, I'm there to help them find their way to their solution. And the same with coaching, executive coaching. Right. And ironically, you know, the people who I've seen struggle sometimes the most when I'm training professional mediators, for example, are sometimes professional negotiators. Right. And part of that for me is quite often I see really highly skilled professional negotiators who are brilliant at what they do, super experienced, but they're fixers, Right? They're people who are good at fixing and have been trained to fix, maybe naturally inclined that way. And then when I'm training in mediation, normally gets, you know, day two, day three in a five day program and sometimes they're really struggling and they're struggling to take that step back because they're still in fixing mode. And actually the idea that it's not your conflict, therefore it shouldn't be your solution can be quite challenging to people who just want to fix.

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Right back after this.

There is so much to dig into here, so let's go deeper. When somebody wants to fix, let's say it might be somebody who has negotiation background, whatever it happens to be they want to fix, what is it within themselves that they need to change in order to adopt a better mindset, to be a better mediator?

I love that question. I think it comes down to being able to let go, right? That, I mean, it's that maxim, it's not your conflict, therefore it's not your solution. And sometimes, you know, it's one of those moments in training where you're just waiting for something to click, you know, and I see this, you know, training professional coaches as well. And I think for me it comes down to the intention behind the action. Are you doing it for you or are you doing it for them? Also this idea that if, I mean, I mean, let's just take it from a very practical standpoint. If you are the negotiator who's now working in a mediation capacity and you see the solution, you feel the solution and then you give the solution. Yeah. Again, it might make you feel good, Right. And it gives you that, you know, dopamine hit and all of that stuff. And it might work, it might work in the short term, but I guarantee you this, if you go back in the long term, you've removed ownership over that solution. Right. And it's now your solution, which might work on paper, but how much real emotional investment do those individuals have who've been in that room with you? And particularly then if you're dealing with different power constructs. Right. People will say yes if they know that their boss needs them to say yes, for example, or in a community setting, there may be other pressures there, for example, so who are you doing it for? And are you sure?

Oh, man. Again, listen, and I need you to stop giving answers that are so profound because I have so many different angles that I want to go with my follow up questions. Okay? So let's, this is so good. Okay, so I love the fact that you're asking that, that grounding question, are you doing it for you or doing it for them? Because I know there have been times in my life where I realized, why am I pushing so hard? What is this? Oh, this is about because I, as a negotiator, sometimes we have that deal making bias and then we make it about ourselves by saying, listen, if I'm a good negotiator, I can get this done. And it becomes very problematic, especially in your personal life, because now you're removing somebody's autonomy and agency and they feel like you're being, you're forcing them. And it reminds me of one of the things a saying somebody brought up in one of the trainings. And I told her, I'm like, listen, I'm going to put this in every training going forward. Collaboration builds commitment. Collaboration builds commitment. If they feel as though they can look at the deal and see some of themselves in the deal, they can look back and remember the process and see that they contributed to it. Now they're bought in because it's not your deal, it's my deal. And I want this to succeed. And so we have to be able to remove ourselves not just by recognizing, hey, my ego is now getting in the way, but also we realize that even if I let my ego get in the way and I do get a deal done, it's good for me, but it's not good for them. Because the deal, what we want or are lasting deals where people are bought in, that's really, really important.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, the ways that we can help negate that are, you know, having good professional supervision as a mediator, for example, can help that. Having that, you know, sounding board outside of the system and the process that you're currently working on. And the same as, you know, coaches, having coaches as well. Right. Having someone to work that through, you know, absolutely.

It's critical. It's critical when, when you are seeing people going through this process because you've trained a countless amount of mediators at this point. What would you say are the elements that separate the good mediators from the great mediators?

I think a few things. One, curiosity, the ability to take that step back, you know, emotional maturity sometimes and the ability to real that you're not always right and there's always more to learn, I think. And you know, when you do get those individuals on programs who are clearly, you know, coming from a maybe previous experience or maybe naturally, you know, inclined towards this work, the Idea of going, actually, I do need to do some stuff on myself that somebody said to me. Really, you know, years ago, that really defined it really well. A good friend of mine who works for UCAN in Canada. You know, it's about you knowing your stuff, you know, your own stuff. And I mean that a non patronizing sense, you know, realizing that, you know, you got to know your own conflict resolution skill, you know, style. Sorry, you know, are you more inclined to avoid? Are you? And again, somebody said to me, a mentor from years ago, Marvin stuff, said to me, you know, some people who work in this field, and I mean that as negotiation, mediation, conflict resolution in general, sometimes some of us tend to be naturally attracted to conflict and we got to be careful with that, you know.

Oh, that's fascinating. Go. Go deeper on that last point.

Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen, you know, if you've ever tried to get a group of mediators to agree on something, for example, Right. You know, or you're training people in a negotiation room, and particularly experienced negotiators, senior negotiators, and you're trying to, you know, decide what you're doing, you know, you know, for the evening and what restaurant you're going to go out to. Those small nuances, even those small things become interesting because again, you have people who are highly skilled and depending on where they're on their own professional journey, you know, how, you know, their own levels of self awareness, their own levels of emotional resilience, you know, their own levels of stress, all of that mix that makes us who we are today, not six years ago when we did our last CPD training course. Right.

This is great. It makes so much sense. And I genuinely got a big old kick out of what you said, trying to get mediators and negotiators to agree because it's so true. And I think a lot of times we can't turn it off. It's like, hey, okay, we can't do it. And then it's also these interactions turn into ego measuring competitions. Let's call it ego measuring. Right. Where it's like, oh, you're a good mediator. Well, I'm a better one. You're a good negotiator, I'm a better one. Oh, we're making a decision where to go. Let me try to influence that decision just to show, show off how good I am at this. And then when you bring it to the, the actual conflicts itself, like the ones that matter. Right. So the negotiations, the difficult conversations where we're having with somebody else or as, as mediators where we are trying to essentially facilitate an agreement between two parties. A lot of times we start to inject ourselves into the process inappropriately in a way that doesn't serve us, but just serves our ego. Right. And it holds us back.

Absolutely. And I think that ego, you know, I was working with some really fantastic facilitators in Germany recently and I just loved how they operated. They were, you know, there's three of us facilitating this, you know, five day sort of conflict resolution negotiation training. And the two of them kept, because we've been working each other for years, kept checking in. I'm pretty sorry I said that. You know, it was my ego that meant that. And I just love that level of professionalism with which you can use other people to check your own ego and be completely honest. And you know, when I'm training negotiating teams as well, it's that idea of going, have you given the other members of your team permission to pull you on your ego? Particularly if you're the boss. Particularly if you're the lead negotiator. Right. You know, because quite often it's that idea, you know, it's the age old manager, you know, my door's always open. And then you do the 360 assessment. Not necessarily what the feedback said, right?

Yep. No, you're so right. And I think it takes a lot of humility and self awareness to recognize that. And again, I think one of the things that's really helpful is when you realize that these just flaws and mistakes, those type of things, they are not an indication of a lack of worth for you as a professional or a human. It's just an indication of your humanity. And we're just all at the end of the day trying to become better people. And so the faster I can acknowledge that and take it, take the feedback on the chin and say, you know what? And you're right, that was a bad call on my part. And when I look at myself, I think that was purely ego. My bad. Bad. Yeah, everybody elevates because of it.

Completely. Completely. And it is then how high in what we do, it gives the people permission around us to do the same. Right. You know, big time. You know, and again, it's the, it's the mirroring behaviors. It's all the stuff that we know about and sometimes the stuff that we forget about when we're busy. Right. When we're in the flow of the negotiation, when we're in the flow of the mediation, when we're, when we're focused on the process around us, but sometimes, you know, we forget about the, you know, the emotional legacy with which we lead those conversations sometimes as well. Right?

You know, yeah, absolutely. And, and one of the things that you mentioned earlier when you talked about the skills of great negotiators was the ability to step back and, you know, step back, if you think about it physically, it seems pretty easy. Okay, and I took a step back.

Right.

But when you say step back, there are several layers to it. So what does that mean to you?

I love that. And you know, it's something I've become really interested in over the last few years, particularly when I'm coaching people doing conflict coaching or, you know, helping people become unstuck. I was coaching recently and they were really struggling. Was working with this individual senior level manager for a year, you know, and, you know, took them about three quarters of the way through the year of coaching. I get it now. This is, you know, you know, I was able to, you know, take that step back, but we did a deep dive. And you know, I love the work of Urien Fisher. And we're all familiar with going to the balcony, right? I love that term. Then we unpack that term. What does the term mean? You know, so for some people, it's about, you know, seeing each word that said at that moment in time. And I kind of parallel it with first aid. Right. You know, if you're trained as a first responder, you're, you know, yeah, you can walk in and help if there's a crash on their motorway system or the road. But if you don't take a step back, guess what happens? You get hit by the next car and you become part of the problem. And for me, it's exactly the same thing as you going to the balcony. So, you know, so we analyze that when I'm, when I'm coaching people. So what do you do, you know, how do you talk to yourself? You know, and if you're, if you're getting really, really fast, well, then slow how you talk to yourself down. If you're shouting at yourself, guess what? Go softer. If, you know, for some people, putting the tongue to the roof of their mouth acts as a physical anchor and switches off those parts of the brain responsible for speech. Other people, as I said, see each individual word. Other people focus on their breathing. Other people twiddle their toes to anchor themselves or anchor points on their thumb and their finger. But fundamentally, I guarantee you this to your listener or whoever's there, you already do this, right? We already Go to the balcony. And yet often there are times we do it better than others. And it's that deconstruction of the times we do it better that interest me. So when's the last time you did it really well? What was the difference between that time and the time where you kind of, you were tired, you were grumpy, you were. Whatever that might be. And if you can deconstruct that, then you can repeat that.

Oh, this is good. Because what I'm realizing as you describe it is that essentially everybody's balcony is different. And so when we described. I love that Fisher and Yuri would get into. Yes, they described it so well. And then I know that there are some people who read their work and said it doesn't really resonate well, then maybe you need to go to a different place. Right? So for them, it might be described as a balcony. For me, as somebody who loves chess, it might be walk to the other side of the table, you know, because I naturally, if I'm playing in person, I can naturally see, feel myself like, okay, I need to stand up. I'm not seeing. I'm gonna look from a different angle, right? And so whatever works for you. You have to figure that out. And there will be times where you're better. And so, like, I'll disclose some examples. So I know for me, I'm better in general at work than I am at home. So like, if it's a business negotiation, imagine like with a client, that's super easy because it's easy to detach. It becomes harder when it's colleagues at work, work, but still a little bit easier than it is at home with family and friends, because those relationships are more lasting. Right? And so then I realized, what is the mentality that helps me to do well in those. It's going to. The balcony looks different. So for me, in a mediation, I think to myself, listen, this is not my conflict, right? And so I'm here to, to be the level head. If nobody, if I'm not level headed, then who will be? So it's my responsibility. So I can go, I can pull myself back because it's not mine. But then at home, what I have to do is I have to. I always say to myself, what would I tell somebody else to do? Because that puts me back into that, like the role of a professional. So I'm going to be more compassionate and empathetic with my tone. But I'm going to remember, stick to the fundamentals. Listen, use empathy, use the compassionate curiosity framework, whatever it Is. And so I stick to that form, but I have to have, like, a little Kwame coach in my head, you know, so it's really cool to see that. I love that you can get to that same destination using different methodologies.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it changes as well, right, because it changes, you know, with our own emotional resilience, our own levels of caffeine intake or sleep, you know, nutritional arrangements, exercise, all of those things affect that moment in time. So that, that idea of, you know, you know, preparation, you know, before we go in, as, you know, and I know you've got a really good preparation sheet on your website. You know, all of that, you. You know, all of that comes into your ability to go to the balcony today before your next negotiation, before your next mediation, even those 30 seconds. And we know how it affects from a neurological and biological perspective. You know, for me, you know, I focus on my tone, right. You know, you know, obviously Chris Voss talks about, you know, you know, the cool late night DJ voice, or my wife calls my UN voice. Right. There's that, you know. Right. So tonality is a big thing for me, and I think that helps me focus on where I need to be at that moment in time, as well as breathing. And the last thing, and it comes from work of Susan Davies as well, around emotional intelligence and stuff like that from Harvard. Is that idea of your mantra, right. You know, very quick one, you know, all problems want to be solved. All problems want to be solved. Right. It's something like that. It works for me. Right. And everyone, as you said, is different, you know, and I love exploring that with individuals and going, well, what's yours right now and what is it on your best day?

This is good. Oh, man, there is so much. And, you know, I think at this point it's very clear. We need to have you back on. We need to have you back on, man. This is too good. And listen, little Easter egg for the. For the listeners, too. I am promising everybody I will be in Europe unless there's another pandemic. Okay? Hopefully not. Let's. I will be in Europe up in the summer of 2023, so hopefully we can make that happen. And maybe next time we do it, we could do it in person. That'd be pretty cool.

I love that one. Find yourself officially invited to Belfast. Kwame.

Hey, I appreciate it, brother. Well, listen, before you go, remind the listeners about your incredible work and how they can get in touch with you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on. And you can find me on LinkedIn. Andy Young and on our website for mediation northern ireland@mediationni.org Reach out, folks. I'm always, always happ the chat. That's my job.

This is great. And thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Kwame, thanks so much for having me on, buddy. Thank you.

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