Mediocrity Is the Only Sin — Lessons from a Founder Who Said No to Google and Built Millions

Sharmin, thanks for joining us today.

Hi Kwame. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Yes, and we are excited to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Hi everyone. I'm Sharmin. I am a serial entrepreneur. I've built and sold about three companies so far in the last 15 years of my career. I'm originally from India and engineer. Like most of us Indians are no big deal, but yes, and, and I am also very, very enthusiastic about writing about content, about videos. I've written three books. The third one's coming out in June and I also angel invest a little bit on the side and now I am also a full time keynote speaker. So a bunch of things. But yes, overall the one motto of my life is to give first Incredible.

And listeners, you are in for a treat. Because I met Sharman in Nashville. We were at a keynote speakers retreat. It's kind of meta. It's a bunch of keynote speakers in the audience learning how to become better at keynote speaking. It's really cool. And I was just enthralled with her story. And what's fascinating about your journey, Sharman, is the fact that negotiation is a through line. It's almost like a supporting character in everything that you do. Whether it's an external negotiation with other people or an internal negotiation with yourself. You're constantly using this to negotiate your way to the top. So let's start off with the story of your first venture, your first entrepreneurial venture. And then let's think about how difficult conversations and negotiation help to shape your success and the lessons that you learned through that process.

Oh my God. That's a great question, Kwami. Thank you. So, you know, just to give you a little spiel about how this whole thing started, so I first came to the US in 2010 when I had a job offer from Google post my engineering. But on the day of joining Google, I said no to them. Ended up joining a startup in Chicago to which by the way, my nerdy parents were like, who says no to Google? Are you crazy? And I think they were in depression for the next three months, but it's okay. Then I joined the startup based out of Chicago where I was the third employee and I eventually ended up becoming the head of sales. I think the biggest learning that I had in that company was negotiation, you know, because I didn't realize what sales was until, you know, a 22 year old gets to sit with 70, 75 year old statisticians at these Fortune 500 companies in order to close deals. And I realized that, oh my God, our life is all about negotiation. You know, anything and everything we do on a day to day life is about negotiation. So ended up growing that company from zero to $300 million in ARR. Because I decided that, you know, this is, this is something that I love to do sales and you know, this is, this is what I want to do. And then one fine day decided to take an exit and went back to India to start my first company where my entrepreneurial journey and my true path on the road of negotiation also started. So this was basically a Netflix like platform for Indian vernacular languages. Now for the uninitiated, There are about 34 officially recognized vernacular languages in India though. We speak like a thousand plus languages, but there are 34 recognized. Out of those 34, I know like nine of them. It's like, how difficult can it be to sort of build an OTT platform in this space now? You know, I didn't know how to do it from scratch obviously, but the first thing is that I loved Netflix, I loved movies. It's like, how difficult will it be? Let's figure it out. So, you know, we ended up writing about 70 original scripts of our own. Now that is one thing, that's just the content. How do you actually put a company together, right? So about hiring, about getting a co founder, about getting a core team and then eventually raising investments. I didn't know how to do any of that, you know, but then started meeting people understood that the only one thing that the human brain really understands is the stories, you know, and so figure that out slowly. And that, you know, the biggest learning about negotiation for me has been the fact that, you know, we human beings, we want to be heard first. You know, there is that constant thing in our mind that, oh my God, can someone please hear me out? It's not about listening. It's more about, you know, that please hear my story out first. People don't want to just respond to you because they like what you're saying. They respond to you because they're like, I want to be heard, you know. So I understood that the first step to negotiation is to hear people out, what their story is, what is it that they are looking for, if they really have a problem where, you know, you can actually help them solve it. And then comes anything else. So the first step for me, at least in my startup building journey was listening to people before I could really tell them what I'M building and why do I even want them on board? So, you know, I. I figured out that I have great listening skills, great social skills, so that was number one in the path of negotiation for me. Second thing was about, you know, following up. Right? And following up and repeatedly telling them that, hey, this is what I'm trying to do. I'd love for you to be, let's say, an advisor or a mentor or an investor or for that matter, even will you join my core team and sort of, you know, lead a particular function, et cetera, all of that. So hearing them out first, then second thing was about following up constantly. And then third thing was obviously about onboarding them into that particular role and then sort of setting expectations. Right. Came next because I think it is really, really important to let people know what is it that you're looking for, and clearly specifying things that this is what I need, and then sort of have that uncomfortable conversation which, you know, people don't really like. A lot of people are like, okay, maybe it's taken for granted he or she will know what I want. No, people don't know what you want. You have to clearly specify it. So these four things I kind of understood about, you know, building companies with, with my first startup.

Yeah, there is so much, so much to explore here because I can see how we were. You were able to take the lessons that you learned from the startup that you joined instead of going with Google, and then you learn, you use those effectively as you built your own company back home. But there's more to explore because for me, as the child of immigrants as well, you made it sound really easy to stand up for your parents and go the other direction. So we have to recognize when it comes to these tough conversations, whatever it happens to be, there are going to be internal, emotional and psychological barriers that hold us back. And you and I both know of a lot of people who say, okay, my parents put me on this track. I'm going to keep on doing this track, and I'm going to do what either my family or society says I should do, even though it is killing me inside. So what internal negotiation did you have to have with yourself in order to have the strength to shift to something that was more authentic for you?

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You know, I think that's a great question. I'm so glad you asked me this. Yes, I just laughed it off. You know, I was like, yes, immigrants and parents and all of that. But, you know, so I come from a very Asian nerdy family. You know, father is a scientist, mother is a lawyer, younger siblings, also a scientist. I am apparently the least educated in my family. As you know, as my dad puts it, like, oh, you could have just gotten into Harvard and Wharton, but you never even tried. So, you know, internally, yes, there is a lot of that cognitive dissonance constantly in my life. You know, where initially it was about proving a point to my parents, especially to my dad. Typical nerds, right? I was like, am I not good enough? You know, there was that constant cognitive dissonance that I was a victim to. And you know, a lot of our parents don't really understand that, unfortunately, because they end up imposing their thoughts and, you know, their desires on their kids. But luckily, I think in my case, I managed to survive, I managed to thrive because I had a very good community of, you know, friends of co workers who were really, really supportive. And I must say that the first company where I joined, you know, the, the founder of that company, we are still friends and we talk till date. And you know, the one message that he told me was that, Charmaine, Your success is 100% a function of your attitude and not your aptitude. You know, this was that one line which he gave me which kind of changed my life. He was like, you know, it's all, all about how you perceive things. It's not about how smart or, you know, what your IQ is. It's more of the EQ that actually takes you ahead, more of your attitude towards things. So, you know, I think some of these people in my life, they kind of really helped me put my thoughts in place and sort of be okay with the unconventional path that I chosen. I mean, how many people are there who would actually say no to Google? It's a great start to your career, right? I mean, a great thing to have on paper. But now my LinkedIn doesn't say Google. My LinkedIn says startups, startups, startups. And basically Chaos, you know, so I am, I'm like the walking chaos journey. Right. So I think a lot of great people in my life and a very supportive network was what eventually helped me put my thoughts in place and sort of get that clarity about what is it that I really want to do and that it's okay to not follow the stereotypical route. Especially, you know, being an engineer from India that, okay, you end up in a tech company, it's okay if you don't want to do that. So I would give it to my network. Yeah.

Amazing. And something that I think is really admirable about the way that you've approached just your career in general is that for most people, it's tough to start a business in general. It's tough to get it to a point where it's sustainable and it's very, very difficult to get it to the point where you've exited and you've done this in multiple countries and continents. And so your ability to negotiate translates no matter where you happen to be. And I know that's really tough for people. So can you go into the challenges of, of navigating the nuances of negotiation in America versus doing it in India?

Oh my goodness, yeah. This is, this is another great question. I'm so glad you're just throwing all of these incredible stuff at me. I'm so glad you know. So, yes, overall, the challenges are pretty much the same in, you know, every country from, from a, you know, from a very overall standpoint. But if we were to look at it very objectively, I think, you know, the biggest difference between India and America is that I think India is still very risk averse, you know, yes. Slowly it's kind of improving. Things are getting better, you know. So if I were to connect the dots between being a startup entrepreneur in India and a startup entrepreneur in the U.S. right. Because I've built companies there and I've built companies here. The first thing is that, you know, negotiation becomes really easy in the US And I can say this with some confidence because people have the capability to, you know, take far greater risks as compared to any other country, not just India, but in the US I think there is a lot of capital out there available to just put into research and development, you know, because entrepreneurs are all about trying different things out. Some things work and some things don't work, but it's all about taking that risk. So I think this is the best thing about America that, you know, there. I mean, if you have to get as, as a startup founder in order to get credence as an entrepreneur, especially in the tech space, tech industry. You like it or you don't like it. As a founder, you have to be in the U.S. you know, this is something that I would just give it, I would just give it to the US And I think has been my biggest learning that access to capital and the mindset of people, right, Negotiation is all about, I mean, how do you even negotiate with someone when they are not even willing to take a risk on you? I mean, it's basically a bet, right? So that is incredible. Number one, about, I think US India is still upcoming, you know, it's still a few years behind. India is amazing. People are great, huge population, 800 million people below the age of 35. You know, so there, so, so there is, there is a lot of potential obviously. But you know, I think it's US is at least a decade ahead of India. The reason being that there is a lot of risk potential and the accessibility to, you know, capital overall. And another thing I would say is that, you know, India people are very analytical. You know, it's, it's, it's, I think the mindset, very, very analytical. They want to see numbers, they want to see data. But in the US I think people are far more emotional. You know, they, if they like you as a founder, that's it. You know, if they like your story, the story just sells, you know, as in your background, your experiences, who you are as a person, your attitude. They just want to get on a call with you because you have a great story, which I think is very easy, you know. So I think doing sales, doing, you know, all of those conversations in America has been easier for me at least has been easier for me because I'm a storyteller. This is what I do. I engage with people. I know how to strike a chord with people by, you know, sharing stories, by listening to them, all of those things. So that is, I think far easier for me in the US than in India. Because in India they, you know, it's a more reference kind of a thing that, okay, if you want to go via a reference, you know, number one, number two is that they want to see some real data, you know, so for a first time entrepreneur, you need, it's kind of easier if you have a godfather, you know, or a godmother to sort of back you. But in the U.S. even if you are, let's say a student from a university who's just starting out, you know, if you have a great story and if, and if they see great potential in you, they'll just give you that meeting. They were like, okay, come, let's talk, come let's do things. So these are the two differences that I've seen. India's upcoming. So I think India's transitioning from that traditional conventional mindset to becoming more risk averse and to sort of taking more bets and, you know, not just being very analytical, but also being emotional. So these two things that I've seen are the two biggest differences between negotiation in US and in India.

This breakdown is fantastic. And it makes a lot of sense too. When you think about scarcity plus competition that equals really tough negotiations. And if there's just more money flowing in the US then that's going to make those negotiations go a lot easier. And I think a lot of folks would have been surprised with the way that you took the cultural nuances because some people will say, well, in America, this is the business culture, in India, this is the business culture. So you adjust in these ways and you just went straight to the practice practical side where it's like, hey, there's more money, it's easier here, so let's focus on that. And I, I think that's really helpful. And there's a really empowering mindset that I want people to pay attention to because a lot of times we have these assumptions about how other people are going to act or what a culture is like and it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy that can hold us back. And so both of us are here, we're people of color. You're a woman as well. And so with a lot of literature they would say, well, women founders make get significantly less, people of color get significantly less. And you didn't focus on that. You didn't focus on that because that could hold you back. And then that orients you in a disempowered mindset because you say, if I'm focusing on those statistics in those conversations, I am thinking about all of the reasons that I'm going to fail that are completely out of my control. That changes the way that we interact with the other person and then we don't have the same amount of swagger and confidence. And so they say, I don't think this is the one. And then we say, see, they're racist and sexist and they don't realize like we started that. And so I really want to hammer home that empowerment piece because this is so powerful because you've done it in multiple continents and you've done it here multiple times. So I just want to make sure that people can take that message. Because sometimes our biggest barrier to success is ourselves.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I mean, you're so right about this. I mean, you know, I'm just diverting a little bit. But, you know, the other day I was having a call with my publicist, who's been my publicist the last seven years, and the one thing that he told me is that, Charmin, you know, you're like every PR person's dream. Like, why? Because you're a woman. You know, I come from a country which is outside of the US Obviously, so immigrant. And then you're a woman of color. And then, you know, you are a woman in tech. And more importantly, I have a very mixed background, you know, so I am half Indian, quarter Kazakh and quarter French from my mom's side, you know, so I'm like, you know, I mean, I'm half Muslim and 1/4 Christian, 1/4 Jew, you know, so it's like living, breathing Abraham. Right? You know, so my publicist, like, oh, my God, I love you. You know, there's just so much content that is there around you. So in. In, you know, because you're a keynote speaker yourself in all of my keynotes, you know, people are like, okay, what do you speak on? AI Innovation. Yes, that's been sort of, you know, my. My keynote area. So I recently did a keynote in, you know, Austin during South by, and they were like, okay, can you just sprinkle a little bit of women in tech, a little bit of women in color? You know, I'm like, okay, for sure. You got it. Okay. Tell me what color you want me to be, and I'll do that. I mean, I take it in a very jokingly, you know, sort of in a. In a very fun banter way, but then I understand DEI and then SDG and stuff that they are looking at sort of incorporating. But, you know, all of these things, they just come to me like, you know, because. Because I've been doing this. I've been breathing this, right? And then navigating my way through that, you know, through all of this, basically negotiating my way, and then, you know, coming out as someone who's not scared or who's not afraid to sort of be whatever that I want to be. You know, I mean, the. The learning curve has been intense. It wasn't. It. It wasn't easy at all. But now I just laugh it out, like, okay, I've done it for almost 15 years. I'll do it for the next 15 and then see. But yeah, it's, it's been intense.

That's incredible. I, I love it. And the, the best communicators are able to flex different parts of their identity and their history depending on who's in front of them. Right. And you're able. The more life experiences that you have and the more you push yourself into different arenas, the more you're going to be able to connect with different people authentically, which is, is incredible. And I, I want to circle back to the, to the topic of the first multimillion dollar company that you started and exited from. So tell us the story about how you strategically positioned yourself for an exit and then what that exit looked like and how the negotiation went.

Right. So, you know, one lesson learned in life is that building a company, you know, the journey, starting it is much easier, but actually exit, exiting the company is far more difficult than even starting it. You know, that's where the biggest challenge is. But of course, the first company, what happened was that, you know, because it was an OTT platform, Netflix live platform for Indian vernacular languages. So there are obviously many factors that kind of, you know, factored in. The first thing was that with me, because of the first company, after saying no to Google, when I joined this startup, so I kind of got that whole network of people. I had a lot of learning. I knew how to build a few things from scratch and then sort of how to connect with people. So one thing that I learned first was that, you know, timing is very, very important for anything, be it starting a company, be it building products, be it selling it to people or exiting. If you are a little clairvoyant and you know, if you have that little vision, foresight to sort of understand when is the right time to do what, like right now, it's all about AI. Back then in 2014, you know, there was still. Indian audiences were still very much prone to consuming content on the television sets. And, you know, the transition from TV to digital media, it hadn't really happened as much. But then Netflix was already a big hit in the U.S. i mean, from selling CDs to finally doing content on digital media, it was a big thing. So I kind of knew that. And I'd sort of been there, you know, in the US from 2010-14. So I'd seen that whole transition happening. So I was like, okay, now I know what's going to come in India. So I went back to India to build that, you know, and sort of had my own production house, did a lot of theater, did a lot of sort of, you know, collaborated with the right set of people, raised a bunch of million dollars of money and then sort of built that platform and then exited from that in 2018. So, you know, the first thing was that I knew back then, you know, there was no Amazon prime in India, there was no Netflix in India. There was no, you know, all of the HBOs of the world and stuff in India. It wasn't there. So I was like, okay. I knew when was the right time to sort of take an exit because these guys were just coming in India, you know, before, before then. So I was like, okay. And of course, because we were creating a lot of content, we had 5 million plus followers on our socials and stuff. So, you know, people knew about the content that we were creating also because our content was very, very, you know, it was, it was talking about stories of people from India. You know, like I was, I, I, I wasn't really talking about a Google story or you know, building the next Apple in India. I was talking about what the common man really experienced day to day lives about social causes and stuff, you know, so we kind of knew how to hit the chord, how to sort of resonate with our viewers, right? So that is, that is something that we'd already figured that out. We'd negotiated with, you know, a bunch of those people to sort of understand what is it that they really want. So we've done that groundwork now when it came to exiting it, right? So of course investors need their money back. They have certain expectations. So we kind of knew that, you know, okay, who do we reach out to? Which production houses would be, you know, the, the right ones. So because of all the things and all the PR that, that we'd already gotten, so a bunch of production houses had anyway reached out to us saying that, you know, we love your content, you want to get the copyrights to all of your content. And, and then eventually all of that content is now running on, you know, multiple platforms that, that I see on a daily basis. I'm like, hey, that's my story. I know that we wrote it, just that we can't claim any more copyrights to it because they've given it all. But you know, so it, it wasn't a one day thing. It was across four and a half years from 2014 to 2018, the whole journey that happened, you know, so building the network, constantly staying in touch with the right set of people, talking to them, I mean, negotiating again, sales, which is, which is all about negotiation, right? Is basically a step by step Process. You have to be visible, you have to let people know that you're there. Right. And build that network, stay in touch with them, constantly following up with them. So we did all of that and then eventually ended up getting the eight figure exit that we needed. We knew that this was coming. We knew that Amazon Prime Video and Netflix and some of those incredible other platforms were moving to India and they were going to create some incredible content. We just ended up being there at the right time, at the right place, just before that boom happened. So timing was amazing. So, you know, I mean, negotiation again, is all about timing also, right? If, if they don't need that at that point in time, who do you even sell it to? So, yeah, I think the timing was, was the biggest success criteria in my journey.

Incredible. There's so much to unpack here, Charmin, because I think a lot of times people think about the exit as an event. It happened at the end. You just said, okay, I'm ready to exit. And then you started beginning the negotiations. But you have to begin with the end in mind. So this whole time, as you're building the company, you're making connections with investors, you're filling the roster with exceptional people. You're keeping in touch with the people down the road who you might not need in this moment right now, but potentially four years down the road, they could be part of this exit. So there's a really, there's a beautiful long game that you played with all of this. Not just with the building of the company, but now negotiating alongside the build so you could have that massive exit at the end.

Absolutely. You're bang on. Right. That is exactly the summary of what I said. Yes.

This is great. And now let's bring you back to the US because you were not done. Even though you did what most people would consider the pinnacle of a career accomplishment, you said, well, I've still got years left, so I'm going to do more. So tell us about the next one, the next startup that you created and then exited from.

Right. So my second company was, you know, I was, I was back in San Jose, so we were building a platform which was basically an emotional AI for product reviews. That's how the journey started. And then we went into, you know, sort of content optimization, content generation, all of that. Yes, we raised a ton of money. We did a lot of things, but, you know, life happened to me. I ended up suffering a cardiac arrest at the age of 33 after raising a lot of money because completely stress induced. We had, we created so Many jobs, thousand plus employees, et cetera. But I realized that, you know, I was just so busy negotiating with, you know, life. I mean, that is, that is when reality strikes that, you know, you cannot negotiate with life, life just because when life strikes you back, it strikes really hard. And that's what happened. I didn't have a choice. I was forced to take an exit. And you know, three months later, my co founder also took an exit. Eventually, yes, the company, you know, got, got acquired and the investors had had beautiful exits and stuff. But my journey had to kind of take a stop in, in between because I realized that, you know, I can, I can negotiate anything, but I think life kind of hit it back. Life was like, don't mess with me. I need to rest, you know. So, yeah, that happened. That was my second startup. So in 2022, I, I sort of had a ton of health issues. It was diagnosed with, with clinical depression also and, you know, had to do a lot of therapy for the next 18 months and stuff. But yeah, that was the journey that, that happened with my second company.

I, and I appreciate you sharing this. I know it's not easy to tell, but this is, it's something that you, you shared publicly so many times before, and it takes a lot of resilience to be able to share such a tough part of your life. So I just want to state appreciation for that. And then also, I think so many entrepreneurs can find themselves in this position where they are driven in a way that is very admirable. But sometimes you don't have an off switch, you don't know how to slow it down. And I've found myself in that situation as well. And so if you were. When we think about the conversations we have to have with ourselves, where we're trying to negotiate peace within our own minds, how, how now do you find that balance? So you don't find yourself in a position like that.

Yeah, so, you know, I did a bunch of things. Of course it, it, it wasn't easy, you know, so 2022 and then 20 part of 2023 were extremely difficult in my life. The, the, the two most difficult years of my life. So I took some time off. Of course I practiced a lot of mindfulness. I traveled to a lot of countries just to, you know, get some time to introspect and sort of figure things out for myself. Did a lot of yoga, meditation, all of those things. Did a, you know, a lot of reading. I wasn't doing anything else. I was just spending time with myself. You know, it was like revisiting the art of negotiation with life, you know, as in, I mean, like I was, I was basically like head on with, with my life, you know, I mean, where my life turned out to be the one villain in, you know, in, in my life, you know, where, where you are competing with yourself and you're like, why did this happen? What went wrong? What is it that I wasn't doing right that you had to hit me so hard and sort of make me realize that, hey, come to a standstill and look back, you know, So I did a lot of that. Lot of introspection, a lot of therapy. I have a full time therapist now and she's been there with me the last three years. And you know, it's, it's, it's, it's been like completely life changing, life affirming. I must say that, you know, I've been mind boggled at times. Like there are times when I wanted to sort of hit myself in the head and I'm like, why did this happen to me? Depression. How me? Why me? You know, and then sort of being at my lowest, being in an abyss where it was completely dark and I didn't know what to do, you know, at that point in time, even, even a single ray of hope actually helps, you know, to, to sort of come out. Now, I'm just saying it very easily, but I remember there were six months in my life and I was completely under house arrest. I would not talk to anybody. I was, I was in total depression. Total, total depression. And, you know, a lot of people don't talk about this, but there comes a time when you have to start talking to yourself, like, look yourself in the mirror and be like, I need some inner work. I need to negotiate with myself first and strike a deal that, okay, you know, going forward, these are some of the things that I'm going to do. I'm going to, you know, fix myself first. And so, you know, as much as I love the name of your podcast, Negotiate Anything, I must say that, you know, the biggest negotiation for me has been with my own life. You know, at 33, when you're in the hospital and the cardiologist walks in and tells you, how old are you again? 33. And this is what has happened. I mean, why? You know, so that was basically my life negotiating with me that Sharvin, this is where we are. If you don't stop right now, then we are not getting anything but just hitting the grave. You don't want to do that at 33, right? You want to live at least a full life and sort of see everything. And so, yeah, me negotiating with my life has been the toughest negotiation ever, but I managed to survive, and that's so important.

And it's the toughest negotiation any of us will have, but it's also the most rewarding. You know, it's the, the foundation for everything else. And we can see. And I'm speaking from experience, too, from the outside looking in, it can seem like everything is going perfectly well. But if you haven't had that negotiation with life itself, it. It doesn't matter how many external accomplishments you get, you can't fix what's inside with more things and more accomplishments. So, yeah, this is, this is so good.

I'm.

I'm glad that we're having this conversation. I wish we would have this conversation sooner. It would have been better for both of us if we would have figured this out too. But it's important and you're doing such a great job spreading the word. And now let's talk about the latest addition, because we've got the keynote speaking, we've got the book deals and the new venture that you're embarking on. And so I think from keynote speaker to keynote speaker, I'd love to hear your perspective on the negotiations you're having now with, like, getting speakers gigs. We don't need to talk numbers here, but just in general, how does it feel from going from like the really intense startup negotiations to now negotiating speakers fees and things like that?

Yeah, great question. Obviously, you know, for one speaker to another. So, yeah, I think the first thing is that, you know, I. So I have one message that I always give from, from my keynotes and the messages. Mediocrity is the only sin. You know, that is, that is, that is my message because that's been what my life has been around as an entrepreneur. So, you know, all of my discussions are around that. I, I talk about AI, about innovation, and now also about mental health and women in tech, because these have been the stories of my life. So, you know, a lot of my negotiations are obviously taken care of by my, you know, by my manager. But, yes, what I've seen is that in general. So I've done about seven keynotes already in this year. In the last two and a half months, I've spoken at a bunch of tech events because that's essentially the kind of audience that I address. Also doing a keynote tour in April, as in five cities, and probably three more should get added in the month of April. So. So you Know, talking at a bunch of Fortune 500 companies and basically talking about innovation and AI. So a lot of my negotiation there is kind of you know, around, you know, about, about the topics, of course, what I'm talking and who I'm addressing and, you know, what is their problem statement, what is it that they are looking for from a speaker and, you know, how to sort of bridge that gap, what their problem is or, you know, what is it the, the kind of inspiration that they're looking for and how I can sort of meet that. A lot of the conversations are around that. Of course, the speaker fees, all of those things are something that my manager takes care of. There, there, there is a set fee. I mean, it, it depends on, you know, the number of audiences that, that I'm talking to, the kind of place that it is. And of course, their, their paying capacity. And I do have a set number that I'm expecting. So of course those, those things are, you know, some of those conversations that, that my manager does. But other than that, I think the most important negotiation that I kind of do with myself before I'm going and speaking to an audience is mostly around the fact that, you know, what is the takeaway that I want them to go home with that, you know, the. We heard this person who's, who's. Who's an Indian immigrant who came to the US first in 2010. She's had a bunch of learnings across multiple different domains and fields and what kind of sort of a mind mapping that I can really do with them and what is it that I'm sort of spreading? So my messaging is mostly around mediocrity being the only sin in life and sort of how you can take a step forward from that and sort of how do you push your boundaries, how do you break the stereotypical things that you're a part of and, you know, innovation, be it in your boardroom or, you know, be it in your cubicle. So I kind of show that whole journey from cubicle to, you know, the boardroom, like, you know, as in how do you go the whole CXO route and things like that. Because, because that's the audience that I speak with. So, you know, a lot of those things and my negotiation with me is all about what is the takeaway that I want my audiences to go home bit. Yeah.

Incredible. I love this too, because I was interested to see where you would go with it, because different audiences want different things, and sometimes you're like, oh, yeah.

I can do that.

I can weave my approach around this. And sometimes it's like, hey, you. You might just need a different speaker. You know, it like, I might not be the one. If. If an audience is saying Charmin, we actually want to talk about mediocrity being the answer. Can you talk about that? You're like, no, I can't.

That's not what I.

So, yeah, I think that's. It's important to get that content, collaboration too, because every audience is different. They want a different approach. Some things that I know for me, sometimes, especially when we're talking about negotiating sensitive issues, there are some things where people are saying, hey, make sure you don't approach it in this way because of this type of issue. Politics and things like that. So that comes up from time to time. But yeah, there's the negotiations about the money are often the easiest parts. Sometimes it's the content that's the toughest part.

Content is the toughest part. Absolutely. For me too. Yeah. Money is something that my manager takes care of. I don't really have to wring my head there. But content is where I am constantly, you know, thinking that what is it that you know, I don't want to hurt people's sentiments, obviously, but I have a message and if that is something that goes with the organizers, then, yes, I'm in. Otherwise, maybe I'm not the right person.

Person, Exactly. No, that's great. And Sherman, before you go, I want to give you an opportunity to give a shout out to what you're currently working on, the new venture and then the new book and how people can get in touch with you.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for that. So, you know, the last six months I've done nothing pretty much because it's figuring out what to do next. So I recently met some very interesting people and they told me that, you know, the one thing that you can do is to leave your legacy behind. And how do you do that is by productizing yourself. Because. Because it's you, so it's unique and because it's a product so, you know, you can scale it. So basically I'm scaling my brain. That's what I'm trying to do. So my legacy is all around entrepreneurship. So I'm starting a new company now, already did. Which is called Establish Club, which is essentially how do you establish yourself as a million dollar entrepreneur? So going the whole idea to exit route, where I have put together all of my learnings from the last almost 15 years of building companies, you know, so how do you validate your idea? How do you build your product. How do you build a team? Go the sales route, the whole negotiation aspect, everything in and around building a company. I've put it all together in the form of a course and I'm now building a community which is basically established club, hence the dot club domain for, you know, entrepreneurs, investors, stakeholders in companies and basically what I want to build with. This is the Harvard for Entrepreneurship. So I'm very excited and I have an upcoming book which is called Bitch Stop, Please. An Entrepreneur's Journey of Innovation. From Chaos to Clarity. The Story of All Our Lives. And it should be out in June. It's now out for pre order on Amazon and and you can get in touch with me on my website, sharminali. Com. Thank you.

Amazing. Thank you, Sharmin. Really appreciate it.

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