Megha Joshi: The crucial role of Self-Worth in Negotiation

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Megha, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thank you so much for having me. Took a long time in the making, but finally I'm here. What a privilege.

Yes, we are excited to have you, my friend. Thank you for your patience. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, let's do that. So my name is Megha Joshi, and I am based out of New York. Just like you, Kwame, I'm an immigrant that came here with some big dreams in the past decade and a half. The two most important things about me for anyone to know. First is that I'm an absolute travel holic. I thrive on traveling. I've been to over 50 countries in the world so far, and I'm chasing all 193 countries. And then two, I am a Harvard certified bartender, so I love mixology. So between mixology and traveling, I think I've really got my act together and I just keeps my spirits high. No pun intended.

I love this. This is cool. Okay, so when we hang out in the next time I'm in New York, you're definitely showing me where the Best drinks are. That's the first thing. And before we get into the substance mega, you have to tell me, so what was the best drink you had? In which country?

Oh, my God. There's so many different drinks I've had over the course of my life. But I will say my favorite drink in the world, it's actually here in New York in something that I make. It's called Relin's Kick. It's made out of green mango juice in a secret recipe that I don't disclose. So next time you're here, the drink's on me.

I love it. Okay, a little aside. So my family's from the Caribbean. My dad's from a small island called Dominica. My mom is from Guyana. What people don't realize about Guyana is that it is about 60, 40 people of Indian descent, 60%, and then people of African descent, 40%. And so it's the only other Caribbean nation that really appreciates green mangoes. So I love this already.

Beautiful. Thank you. And to get to the less important stuff about me in my introduction. So I started my corporate life in the management consulting space with one of the big four companies. I moved across different industries in the consulting space, and finally I made my way into the media telecom space. And that's where I spent a good deal of my corporate career, rising up the ranks. And as I moved up, I was running different divisions, large teams of over 120plus employees spread across the country. And I've derived great joy from my corporate success. But having said that, last year I took the plunge to get on my own entrepreneurial journey. And now I am the CEO and founder of Boardroom Zen. And it's a leadership development executive coaching firm based out of here in New York. And I work with people just like me, corporate executives and their teams. And I really try to bring together three dimensions, which is mindset, well being and core energy to really help those leaders move from good to epic. And that's sort of my life's purpose and something that I absolutely adore and love in this new realm of entrepreneurship.

I love this. First of all, I love the entrepreneurial journey of part of it. Of course, yes, I love this approach to the mindset, well being core energy, but bringing it to the corporate space in an effective type of way. And a lot of people, as they listen to the title, the name of your company, Boardroom Zen, it those seem to be competing. So before we get into the substance of the interview, I'd love to give you an opportunity to explain the Juxtaposition of those terms. And I think that'll be a great segue into the topic today.

Sure. Absolutely. Great question, Kwame. So the name of my company is Boardroom Zen. And as you can see, those two words don't really go together. Boardrooms are all about power and control, and driving outcomes versus Zen is all about attaining a state of calm and peace and composure. So that's the reason why I bring these together is because I truly believe that these boardrooms need a state of calm and Zen. So through my work, I try to infuse a piece of Zen into those corporate boardrooms, into those power circles, so these leaders can be more grounded, so they can actually do more without burning themselves out and driving their teams over the cliff, if you will.

I love it. It's so necessary now more than ever because so many people are such hard drivers and it's easy to get out of balance. And that brings us to the topic of today's episode, because we focus a lot on the podcast on strategies, tactics, what it is that you should do and say in order to be effective in these difficult conversations. And I love to have the opportunity to talk to people like, who could help us to understand what are some of those internal barriers that prevent us from putting those strategies and tactics into place when it matters most. Because it's going to be difficult for us to win the outer game if we're struggling to win the inner game. And I want to channel some skepticism from some of the drivers and hard chargers in my audience because I know there's somebody out there saying, hey, I don't want to talk about this woo woo stuff. Just tell me what I need to do, what I need to say in order to get my way. So before we get into the inner game, I want you to paint a picture for the audience of what happens in our difficult conversations if we don't have our inner game in place.

Yeah, and that's such a great, loaded question, Kwame. So what I will say is, for a big chunk of my early corporate life, I was one of those leaders that was just after outcomes. I was driving outcomes for the business, for my team. I was just so laser focused on attaining something. But soon I realized, realized that by embracing that way, by just being laser focused on the outcomes, it just felt like I had to drag everybody with me. I was just holding myself in and dragging everybody in it. It felt like I was working against the grain. So with time, I realized that just being focused on outcomes wasn't going to work for Me if I wanted to be in the big leagues. And so over the years, what I've come to discover, Kwame, is that there is an immut sequence of three dimensions. And the first dimension is our thoughts. Our thoughts in our mind are driving number two, the feelings and the emotions. So if we come up with a thought as we go into a boardroom meeting, and the thought is, these players in the boardroom are here to get me. They're not going to support me with that thought. If I walk into that boardroom, the emotions or the feelings that my body will trigger is going to be that of anxiety. Right. I'd be very anxious. I'd be breathing fast. My heart rate will probably go up, because I'm walking in expecting that something bad's gonna happen, that I don't really have the support. So that leads to the third dimension or aspect, which is action that I take. So the actions I take is I probably try to use force in the boardroom. I'm trying to talk over people. I am trying to state my dominance in the room. And clearly, the result that I want was to drive intended outcomes is not there. So I believe that to drive intended outcome, we have to start with the thought in our mind, which will drive the feeling or emotion in our body, which will drive the outcome that we want. And a big majority of us are so focused on the outcome, we don't care about the thought or the feeling, and we just skip these beats and we get in our own way, if you will, if that makes sense.

Oh, it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense because what you're realizing, you painted this picture perfectly. Because the inner game, like you said, the thoughts and the feelings will prohibit us from being successful when it comes to putting the right actions into place at the right times, because we cannot be successful unless we have all of these things in action. And I think one of the things that's really interesting about this is that you're starting off with thoughts. You didn't say facts or truths. You said thoughts. And I think that's really important, because the things that we think may not be true, and then these false beliefs can lead to problematic emotional states, which lead to problems when it comes to executing and getting the results that we want.

Yeah, yeah. In Kwame, it's really all about the stories we tell ourselves. We prove ourselves right through the stories we are constantly telling, because, guess what? We are going to make those stories come true in the real world through our inner reality that we are creating in our Space.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. Absolutely. It can be equal parts scary and empowering to recognize that we have this much power to change our stories because it can be challenging. Like the scary part is just recognizing, wait a second. I've held held onto this story for days, months, weeks or years, and I've identified so strongly with this story that this belief that I currently have is not just something that I believe. I feel as though it's a part of who I am. Let's break down how we can have that internal negotiation to change these stories within ourselves so we can have better outcomes.

Yeah, let's talk about it. So maybe I'll share some examples from my own life to make it real. So in my last corporate role, I was running corporate escalations for this Fortune 100 company. And in that capacity, basically I was the customer advocate within the organization. And when things went wrong with any of the 30 million customers of this company, my team and myself would be plugged into. Especially I would be brought into the more executive conversations where I would be on point to engage different teams within the organization. So there were over 100 plus departments that I would have to bring into the conversation to drive outcomes, to figure out what went wrong with that customer's experience with that journey. And what could we do differently? Right, because we were answerable to the executive team. We were answerable sometimes to media, sometimes to government agencies. It was a very critical role. So early on as I took on that role, clearly that role came with a lot of power. So when things went south, I would make phone calls, I would pull people and leaders into meetings so we could figure out what was going wrong. And by the way, there was no sense of time to these situations. Meaning I could be picking up the phone on a weekend or a night and calling another leader because I wanted him to cooperate and give me what I needed in terms of that customer's experience. Right. I wanted them to Be a thought partner. So the piece I want to talk about here in terms of emotional intelligence is that one way of handling that situation is to use the power of the office, to use your title to get your way, right? So one path I had was make that phone call, let that person know who I was, and use my authority to get what I wanted out of them, which is essentially use force over others. Now, clearly that tactic works in the short term, but it's not sustainable. It's not something that drives true results. So the approach I used to take was, first, be very much in tune with the emotions that I was experiencing, right? When I was making these phone calls at weird hours on a weekend or on a holiday, clearly I didn't want to make those phone calls. I mean, I had to walk away from my own personal commitment. So there was a lot going on within me internally. I wasn't in the most happy place as I made those phone calls, right? So I had to acknowledge and embrace my own emotions in my own state and come to terms with that, that I signed up for this job and I am here representing my customer. So I had to reframe the story in my head for myself and for the sake of the customer. And then once I got handle on my own inner state, I would also want to put myself in the shoes of the other leader that I'm probably pulling away from the dinner table or from their vacation and recognize that as they take my phone call, they're probably going to be experiencing some of these emotions, similar emotions, right? And so by just acknowledging internally what was going on in my world and what could be going on in their world allowed me to make that phone call and address that with greater empathy. Be human, be kind, be honest, be real, and really tell that leader honestly what's going on. And here's why I need you. And by the way, I am sorry to pull you away from whatever that you were doing right now. But hey, we're in this together and we got to figure this out, right? So by having that honest conversation, by being in tune with my emotions and other person's emotions, I was able to get their buy in and use that to bring them into this piece of problem solving, right? As opposed to them being on the other side, me being on this side, I used to bring them together so we could collaborate and figure things out. And then I would bring in more stakeholders as needed. But I see this play out a lot in the corporate world, Kwame, where we're so focused on the outcome and we don't even shy away from using power plays and authority and titles and name drops to get our way. And that doesn't work, you know, so the answer is self awareness of your own emotions and awareness of other people's emotions and using that to figure out a path forward.

This is a masterclass. This is great. There's so many gems that I want to pull from this. I want to start here because the empathy and emotional intelligence you were able to share with your colleagues started with yourself. So it was self directed empathy, self directed understanding. And you were able to slow it down and say, how am I feeling? And. And let's see, you said, be human, be honest, be kind, be real. And that all started with yourself because you had to come to terms with how you were feeling in that moment. And that empathy and self kindness that we extend to ourselves, once we give it to ourselves, then it becomes more possible for us to extend that to others. But if we're just thinking about emotional intelligence and empathy as tactics that we can use, plays that we can run as just a tool to get what we want, then it really falls flat. That's when it doesn't feel authentic and real. And so it takes a lot of self awareness and humility and vulnerability in those private times when you're going deep within yourself to understand yourself, to be able to extend that vulnerability and empathy to other people.

Yeah. And you nailed it. Right. It all starts with us. If our part is empty, how can we serve others from that empty part? So it all starts with us to begin with.

Absolutely. And yeah, this really paints the picture of how. Yes, of course negotiation strategy is important. Yes, negotiation tactics are important. But if you can get yourself to a point where these behaviors just naturally radiate from you, then it's not a tactic, it's just authentic human interaction.

Yeah. Then it becomes a part of your DNA. It's second nature to you. Don't even have to think about it. That's how you operate.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah.

And let's touch on self worth, because this is something that you talked about in your prep. We've talked about this kind of tangentially with other guests, but we haven't really dug into this explicitly. So as it relates to self worth in these high stakes types of conversation, what role does self worth play?

Yeah. So before getting into the heart of self worth, Kwame, I just want to say that when I look at negotiations, I look at them as an exchange of value. It's not driving just an outcome, it's not transactional. It is an exchange of value that's happening in real time as we are negotiating, as we're trying to get something out of a situation. And I bring this up because in any situation, life situation, personal, professional, stressful situation, we are taking something from another person or organization and we are giving something in return, right? It's an exchange of value. So I bring this up because a lot of times, especially when there's not an exchange of a physical product, we are exchanging our services, our time, our life force, right? Especially in the corporate capacity, when we spend long hours behind these descent in these cubicles, we are giving our life force to that organization. So if we don't realize what we are giving to that organization or to a client, then how can we truly ask for something that's of value? So I bring this up because it hits on the dimension of self worth. And really we as individuals, as leaders, we're only as successful as the degree of self worth that we have within ourselves, right? For instance, I'll give you different examples as I coach leaders or navigating their way in a corporate environment, they're scanning for opportunities to grow and join the big leagues or negotiating with a potential employer. I encourage them to be very aware of what they are giving to this entity in return for compensation, for title, for external things. Right? Being very aware of who you are, what you bring to the table, I think it only lends us this unique superpower that nobody else can render us right. It is unique to us. It is our special gift that the universe has blessed us with. So being aware of who we are, what we can offer, is a crucial piece of any negotiation, of any conversation, of any transaction, if you will. And I've seen this happen with me, with my clients. I believe truly that our self worth translates into our net worth over time. Time, we create the net worth. We create external goodness and abundance through that exchange of value, which is nothing but our good understanding of our own self worth.

This is so deep and you're so right. If you just ask anybody, can you be an effective negotiator while at the same time having low self worth? Even if somebody is not a negotiation expert, they'll say, I don't. That doesn't sound right at all. And this is so powerful. Again, this is something that we can overlook. Look, again, most people would understand this. I don't think you said anything controversial here. Now the question is, what is it that holds back these high performers from having self worth?

Yeah, I think self worth is very much contingent on the degree of self awareness a person or a leader has. If we're not aware of what's going on in our mind, in our bodies, and in our inner space, if you will, we can really never appreciate or even wrap our head around what we have to offer. So I think the strategy that I would share with leaders out there is to take a pause during the course of their busy days, their busy lives, take a pause and take stock aware that person really is in our emotions. Kwame never lie. They are the most powerful tool we've got. So if the leader can pause and get in touch with how they're feeling, what's going on for them, and then unpack that onion, take away those layers and figure out what's really going on for them, what makes them happy, what brings them joy versus sadness. Right. And move towards opportunities and areas that are bringing them closer to their own unique gifts. And in the corporate world, in traditional business world, we are so driven by the titles in wanting to prove ourselves to others that we forget about us. So the question we gotta be asking is, what do I really want? If I didn't have to care about the optics of the external world, what do I care about? What do I want? What makes me happy, what brings me joy? And usually the answer that comes with that question are the things that are our true gifts that we can give to the world. They are the things that make us worthy, that make us unique and special. So I know it's a lot, but those are some of the things that I would recommend people do make.

I wish we would have met five years ago. I was trying to get all this together because you just perfectly encapsulated some of the challenges that I went through. And I know so many other high achievers struggle with the same thing because it can be a very disempowering feeling when you're getting all of this external validation from the world. But for some reason, it's not clicking inside of you and you're not feeling validated by yourself. And that could be a scary place. And like we've been talking about this whole interview, it can manifest itself in very surprising types of ways. And one unsurprising type of way is that if you don't see that value in yourself, it's going to be really hard for you to assert yourself and advocate for what you deserve if you don't feel like you're worth it. So this is a critically important point.

Thank you. I'm glad it resonates with you.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I know it's going to resonate with a lot of the listeners now, too. So before you go, I wanted to give you an opportunity again to remind the listeners about your business, your podcast, and how they can get in touch with.

Thank you, Kwame. You are super kind and I appreciate this opportunity. So my business is really called Boardroom Zen. I work in the leadership development executive coaching space. I work with senior executives, leaders and their teams to really help them move from good to epic. My podcast is also called Boardroom Zen, and the audience can find it on any of the common podcasting platforms. I'm everywhere and really, I'd love to connect with with more and more people and make a positive impact in the corporate ecosystem. I think that's my life's purpose. I'm out there on LinkedIn, so I look forward to reconnecting and connecting with more people. And I thank you, Kwame, for this unique opportunity. I have been listening to your podcast for the past few months. I have to say what a stellar job you do at putting this podcast out there. You are exceptional at what you do. And as I mentioned offline in this conversation, you are inspiring so many, including myself, who are just getting on the entrepreneurial path. So thank you for all you do, Kwame.

Oh, thank you. That means a lot to me. And I have to say the podcast is only as good as the guests I can get. And so you now are a big part of that. Magus, I appreciate you. And then thank you so much for being a guest.

Thank you, Kwame. My absolute privilege.

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