Navigating Corporate Negotiations: Insights from Michelle Fleming

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Hey, thank you for having me.

It is my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So my name is Michelle Fleming. I am a general counsel for a company called Belltech Logix and we're a managed IT services provider. And what that means is we provide services and solutions to help you be more productive. And like, who doesn't want to be more productive, right? And so I kind of fell into this because about 20 years ago I was in litigation. And I don't know how many people realize this or not, but when you do litigation, generally speaking, the parties aren't getting along, right? Like, there's hostility and like, at best it's unfriendly. And so I really wanted a change in career where I was focusing on building something of value instead of tearing each other apart, like, for example, litigation. And so I sort of got into it that way. And when I'm not doing contracts for belltech Log, still doing contracts through volunteer efforts for nonprofits.

Incredible. And listeners, this is. I had to pause our vibe session before this started because Michelle and I were just. We were going on because there's so much connection here between our approach to just life and business. And I am excited for this episode because there's certain things that you approach differently that I think would be really beneficial for the audience, too. So, audience, here's a bit of a roadmap. We're going to talk about passion and purpose and how that can connect to contracts and negotiation. Then we're going to talk about a really unique approach to negotiating these contracts. Introducing friendship, which is honestly the first time we've heard that term associated with negotiation after 1100 episodes. So I'm really excited about that. And then we're going to talk about the importance of inclusion and as it relates to the workspaces and then a nexus between inclusion and negotiation there. So let's start off with passion and purpose. Can you tell us about what those two words mean to you, Michelle?

Yeah. So my passion is contracts. I'm a contracts nerd. I think you are as well. I've seen you at contractscan a couple of times, if I'm right. And so I really enjoy contracts. But at the end of the day, I want to think about what is the ripple effect, what change am I having? And for me, my purpose is making an impact in the community. And so for me, through my work, my purposes are clients. Just for example, one of our clients provides wheelchair accessible vehicles like taxi cabs and things like that. And so I see these cars driving around with that client logo on it. And I think they're helping my neighbors and I indirectly am helping them through the contract. And it really changes how I interact with that company because I want to help them, because I know they're making change.

What I love about this is that a lot of times when it comes to contract negotiation or negotiation in general, we think so narrowly about the outcomes that we're trying to accomplish. So we're saying, all right, these are my business goals. This is what I'm trying to do. I'm going to steer in that direction. But it allows us to create such a different type of connection if we can tie what we're doing to our purpose and to our passion too. And with you, you're focused on that positive impact. And I'm assuming it changes the way that you show up in these negotiations. Am I right?

Yeah, it absolutely does. Because I'm thinking more of, you know, what I can concede on and things for them and how I can help them. And it really impacts my attitude and my communications with them because I know the last thing that they want to do is have this contract drag out. So that really makes a change just in my mindset.

When you think about negotiations too, we have to understand interest, we have to understand what the person wants, and we have to demonstrate that we actually care. And the way you're approaching it, I think a lot of times other people are thinking about how can they act like they care. Yeah. So can you go a little bit deeper on really how that genuine care changes the way that you show up?

Yeah, I think it makes me more of an active listener, more actively listening just to their concerns. And I'm less guarded. I'm more transparent with, you know, what I need. And I think it really lowers the walls just in my interactions with them.

Agreed. I want to focus in on these two points, the active listening and less guarded, because I recognize that a big reason why people struggle with listening is because they genuinely, deep down inside, don't care enough to listen. And the result, they cannot create that connection, and people can sense that. And then when you are assuming negative intentions on the other side, it makes us more guarded, which makes it less likely for us to be transparent. And then as a result, the other side can feel that, and then they're less likely to share. And so it's just a compounding effect. We don't care, so we don't listen. The other person doesn't feel like sharing because they know you don't care, and then you don't share yourself.

Yeah.

Then makes it, again, less likely for them to share.

Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. I agree.

Yeah. And now let's say you're in one of these negotiations and the person is feeling these positive vibes from you, but they are skeptical because they're saying to themselves, I know people like you. You're a lawyer, former litigator. This is just. This is a trick. This is a trap. How do you get people to feel a little bit more comfortable even though your intentions are pure? How can you get them to truly believe that?

Yeah, I think you need to build some commonalities. So I think if you're robotic, it makes negotiations a little more difficult. So I like to talk a little bit about myself and show interest in their company, and I'm generally, like, interested in their company. I've looked up their company. I've looked them up on LinkedIn. Like, I'm generally interest in them, so I express interest in them. And I think when they see that it's coming from a genuine place and they're going to be a little bit less like skeptical.

I like it. And that keyword is genuine interest. Because I think about it too with a difference between genuine curiosity and strategic curiosity. It's like the difference between a true open ended question and a cross examination. And this is going to sound possibly like a silly question because I'm assuming there's a part of this that is innate for you where you genuinely are interested. Now, let's say somebody is busy. How do you cultivate that genuine interest when we're working so hard, we've got so many things on our plate. How can we actually genuinely be interested enough to take the time to learn more, create this connection and get that positive momentum going for the negotiation?

Yeah. Do you know, I think I actually have a story about that, Kwame. So in the job description that I got for my current job, one of the line items, it said make it easy on other people. And for a long time I didn't really understand what that meant. I thought it meant reply quickly and do my job. And then one day I got set of markups from somebody and it was this long, extensive set of markups. And I thought, I am so busy. I am so like you were just talking about, I'm so busy, I don't have, I don't have time for this. And then I had an epiphany and I thought, they're busy too. They are busy too. And so I think about that and it changes my style, you know, And I want to have minimal markups, like the minimal amount necessary, include explanatory comments to make things easier on them.

One of my favorite sayings is that the sign of a brilliant insight is that it seems obvious in hindsight. And it's so funny because we are busy and we say, I cannot do these certain things because I'm busy. And we fail to appreciate that. Everybody.

Everybody's busy. Yeah, everybody's busy. And you need to think about, like, how can you make it easier on them? And yeah, that take you, you know, a longer time to write an explanation of, you know, why you made these changes or yeah, it's going to take. Sometimes it takes you a longer time to be strategic on your edits and less edits than it does to just heavily mark it up to a point where, you know it's going to be acceptable to your company. But, you know, I think it's important to do that because they're preoccupied too. They're busy too. They've got things to do, so.

Yeah, absolutely. And I know we need to send this episode to Neta because I know she will love this part of the conversation.

I love Netta's book. So good.

Shout out to Netta and contracts Nerd. This is great. And I think this is an awesome opportunity for us to segue into that concept of friendship in negotiation, along with finding ways to make easier. So can you tell us your approach to blending friendship and negotiation? Because I think a lot of people might be surprised at that combination or a little bit almost hesitant to connect those terms.

Yeah. So I think somewhere along the way, and maybe for a lot of us, that somewhere as law school, we become a little bit adversarial because we're so focused on trial advocacy and things like that. So we feel like we have to win on every single point. And that's not a mindset that really helps you in contract negotiations. And for me, this is the first time I've talked about this story. But the reason I finally changed my mindset is I had a contract negotiation and it really wasn't going well. And this had been going on like, a month or two months. And so I got a markup back from this individual, and I sent it to our business partner internally. And I said, you know, here's all the things that I think about the markup. Here's the reasons I'm concerned about it. Here's what I need. And I hit send to our business partner. Except instead of hitting send to, it was my coworker. Actually, instead of hitting send to my coworker, I replied to the other person, and he replied back and he said, thank you. I didn't understand that. And we got it done, like, right away. He wrote me a letter of recommendation because he said he was impressed with my negotiation style. And I thought about it and I was like this. That's what changed my mindset towards friendship. Honestly, this is the first time I've talked about this, and I thought, what is different about how I'm communicating with him than how I was communicating with my coworker? And I realized it was because maybe I was a little more transparent with my coworker. Maybe I didn't trust that this other person could handle the feedback. And so I started thinking about it. I was like, I need to treat them like more like friends. And, like, even if I haven't met the other person now, I'll look them up on LinkedIn. I'll learn about them. I've got this Mindset that, you know, they're my friend. I'm not going in like we were just talking about before, like skeptical. I'm going in open minded and thinking this is a collaborative effort. I can trust that they're going to take the feedback I have for them, you know, and that we're going to get this done. And so it's really, it's changed, it's changed my mindset and it's made things go a lot easier. You know, I don't have this like wall or mask anymore. And so that's how it happened. I thought I was sending an email to my co worker and I sent it to the other person and he appreciated my candor and very happy and we got it done and it was a many years long, great business relationship.

Wow, Michelle, usually when people tell stories about accidentally sending emails to the wrong person, it goes very differently. So I'm glad that it worked out. Well. Secondly, I know a popular book. I think it's Kim Scott who wrote this book. It's called Radical Candor. And your negotiation book should be called Accidental Candor, right?

Yeah.

That's great.

I think a lot of my, my processes now are built on mistakes. So now I've got this delay on my outlook so that before an email goes, I've got like a 60 second. All of my like efficiencies are built on the backs of mistakes, like many of them. So that was one of them. But yeah. So now I'm just a little more, you know, candid and I don't have the mask on and. Yeah.

Incredible. This is something that I've heard so many expert negotiators talk about just the benefit of transpar. And now we're not advocating for, hey, you know, that really, really, really problematic piece of information that you have about yourself. Share that. We're not saying that, but we're recognizing that we can share a lot more than we initially recognize if we take the time to prepare and we're willing to share.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I remember I did this negotiation workshop and I know you've been. Many of them were each given like a, a fax scenario. Right. Where we're not supposed to share it with the other parties. And our hypothetical was that we were trying to get this contract done in the airport before everybody on their planes and they're like unreachable. Right. And manufacturing. And it turns out nobody resolved it, nobody resolved it within the time limit of the workshop. And turns out the answer was that one person had to send people over to the manufacturer to help on the assembly line and get this done by deadline. And that was the answer. And so I think if you've been like, if you haven't been maybe so like walled off and a little more transparent about the solutions that you can offer, you know, maybe we could have gotten it. Could have gotten it done.

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Yeah, trust.

Exactly. We get that trust and sometimes it's reciprocal. So if I can share a little bit and I say hey Michelle, this might be helpful you know, it might not be the best negotiation strategy to share this piece of information, but blank. And sometimes when you are able to disclaim beforehand, hey, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to share something. And other people in my position probably wouldn't share that, but I trust you, so I'm going to share it. Sometimes giving that little preamble before a disclosure can be helpful because it increases the likelihood of that recognition of, oh, that was really important.

Absolutely. I agree.

Yeah. Oh, this is great. And yeah, it can definitely see about how friendship, approaching it from that mentality is beneficial. When you think about, again, friendship in negotiation, treating the other party as a friend or potential friend, what are some other things that you utilize in order to get that positive momentum flowing?

Yeah, I talk about my personal life a little bit. I know everybody's busy, but I like to talk about hobbies because I think it humanizes me, for lack of a better word. And I think that helps the negotiations sometimes.

Agreed. Yeah. Tell me what you think about this hypothesis. It's something that I'm playing around with. I'm recognizing that when it comes to people and their. Their professional Persona that they create, a lot of times the veil of professionalism we put over ourselves with our personal brand is. It seems as though the goal is to make us seem less human, like we're showing less of ourselves, like our true self. So if you think of a decorated soldier or person who's in the military, we imagine them in all of the regalia with all of their badges and their hat and everything, but we recognize there's very little skin exposed. Like, we really don't know who this person is or anything like that particle.

Age them that way.

Exactly. And think about it from a professional perspective. We have all of our degrees, we have our. Like our LinkedIn, try to make it as amazing as possible. And so we create this professional facade. And when you allow somebody to have a peek behind the curtain, they say, oh, Michelle is. She's a human. I'm a human, too. Yeah.

I think the key connection is just being vulnerable and open about who you are. And I started being a lot more open about who I am because I saw an attorney, like a top tier. You'd know the name. Top tier law firm. Was very open about her hobby, which was belly dancing. And that's a very. That's, you know, I love that she was open about an unusual hobby. And she talked about it and she blogged about it. And I realized it's okay not to be Cookie cutter. It's okay to say I'm unique, and here's why. And I think. I don't know that I can relate to that. But it's interesting. Like, it's. It's interesting. Like, just for example, okay, we were talking, you know, before this, about my volunteer work, right. For a nonprofit. And the reason I do that is because my brother passed of an overdose. And I'm open about that because I think a lot of people don't talk about it. But it turns out after I was open about it, many, many, many people came and talked to me about it because it's not the type of disease, like, for example, cancer, where people are scheduling, like, meal trains and showing up in the hospital and things like that because they can't talk about it. And so I'm open about my humanness and like that. So, yeah.

Oh, that's so powerful. And again, listeners, this also demonstrates how negotiation skills can change the world, because with the volunteer work that you do, you're using your negotiation skills and the contract work that you're. You do at such an exceptionally high level and bringing it through this pro bono work to make the lives of other people better. So you're finding creative ways to unite that passion and purpose to create a bigger impact going forward.

Yeah, I used to do Habitat for Humanity, but I'm not really good with a hammer and nails and all that. It turns out, like, I'm good at contracts. So I appreciate that they can use my skillset and I can help them in that way.

So, yeah, I'm laughing because I've done the same thing, and I was out there saying, like, what? I am a liability.

Right.

I have other skills. That is great. Well, yes, I know we're. We're coming up on time, and I want to be respectful of your time. And one of the things that you wanted to make sure that we made time for is your passion for deib. So can you tell the listeners a bit about that and how that connects with negotiations?

Yeah, so I'd love to talk about it. So I want to talk about specifically being a woman in the technology industry and just my experiences and experiences of others. I think a lot of women have a history of their voice being silenced. Just for example, you know, I've been told in the past that I can't participate on conference calls unless I remain silent, and that was the only way that I could. I say participate, but it was the only way I could listen on conference calls if I was to remain silent. And then I've also been at, just, for example, events where I would see a female speaker go on for the first time at like 1pm, 2pm everybody else before her was male, and somebody in the audience turned the back of his chair to face her and started taking questions from the audience for her and explaining regulations and things like that. And so I think there's just this. This history of female voices being silenced. And so one of the things that we do here at Bell Tech Logics is we have what's called courageous conversations. And just for example, like Women's History Month, I think think some people have Women's History Month and they talk about, here's all the great things that women have invented, here's all the great women leaders at our company. But they don't really invite people speak about their experiences, good or bad, as women. And we do on, like, many other topics. Like for Black History Month, we had conversations about, you know, what have been your experiences. And it's important to have these, they call them the courageous conversations, so that we can learn from it and we can make it better for the workforce and also for our clients and our customers. And so I don't think think that we would have this insight without diversity and inclusion and being able to talk about these things.

I agree. And when you think about these courageous conversations series on sensitive topics, a lot of times people can be hesitant. They might be afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing. They might not feel as though they have the right to contribute. So, for instance, a man during Women's History Month, like, what is our role in that? Or is there a role? And so for people who are listening to this and saying, okay, I can recognize that there's some value in having these courageous conversations, but there are different fears that might hold them back. Can you speak a little bit to the potential role that they have and what they can do to overcome those fears?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important as leaders to speak about our experiences. Like, for example, I'm talking about my experiences as a female now and helping people realize that it's okay. I'm talking about it. It's okay for you to speak about it to you and realize that, well, like we were talking about before, this is an environment of safety. It's an environment of trust. You can speak freely. It won't be recorded.

So, yeah, no, I think that's great. And with that, I think one of the things that's often overlooked is the role of the leader in setting the parameters, what is acceptable, what is not. Acceptable, what the purpose is and what the future holds as a result of this. Because sometimes what ends up happening is people who are well intentioned, they say, we're going to have this difficult conversation. Okay, talk about the thing.

Yeah.

People are like, well, what, how do I do this? And so when you think about this like a structure that might work, what are some general things that are helpful to keep in mind? So let's say hypothetically, somebody's listening to this and they say, okay, I want to start these courageous conversations on sensitive issues so my company and the culture can improve and become more inclusive. What are some potential guardrails or structures that they can put in place to make sure that the, the conversation doesn't get off track too far.

Yeah. So I think it's important to have a leader arranging it to set out the agenda and kind of direct that conversation so that it's not necessarily a free for all, but a structured conversation.

Yep, agreed. I think that structure is so important and it's not always intuitive too. It'll have to shift depending on the circumstances and the topic. But yeah, if you have somebody who's leading, it's beneficial. And I also think if you can have somebody outside of the organization taking the lead, that can be beneficial.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Like an expert in the area. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, yes. Because we have some well intentioned people who don't know as much who might be trying to lead. I mean, I like to try to be as inclusive and everything, but I don't, I don't think I should be leading like a talk on women in the workplace. I might be facilitating, like, hey, do it, I'll follow suit. But as far as like me standing up, I think there's some problems there. So I think that's, that's really important. Well, great. And another thing that you mentioned briefly was the importance of the value of diversity in the workplace. And I want to talk about it from the perspective of preparing for negotiations. Because when you are preparing for negotiations, it's beneficial to have, have diversity of thought. And so we have somebody who's really great at numbers, somebody who is great at the relationship and things like that. Everybody has their lanes. And I know for you as general counsel, in house counsel, you have multiple people on your team. So oftentimes you're negotiating alongside other people.

I'm the only one. I'm the only one on my team.

Oh, you're the only one on your team? Oh, okay. Do you have other people? Do you have like, are there times where you have to like, it might be like you sales and.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Okay. Okay, cool. So. All right. Because the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes when you have diversity of thought on the negotiation team, sometimes you have to negotiate internally to figure out who's going to say and do what. Like what's a common scenario for you where that might have to happen? Where like you have to align with people internally?

Yeah, I usually have a again from that is book, but I open a teams chat internally and then have that conversation and make sure that we're aligned and not contradicting each other.

And before we go, I want to circle back to something that you mentioned about diversity. And I like to think about diversity as it relates to negotiation teams. It's really helpful to have diversity of thought with different people playing different roles. And for you as general counsel, sometimes you have to negotiate on behalf of the company, but there are other people who are on your negotiation team. Can you give us an example of what one of those negotiations could look like and then what you do internally to get, get internal alignment before having the external negotiation?

Yeah, so there's absolutely an internal negotiation and I think it's really important to understand their needs because after all their department is the one that's performing to this contract. So I can't just sign them up for anything. Right. I need to understand like what are their needs and their objectives. And so I usually have internal meetings to get that feedback. And then sometimes, because I think we all know there can be surprises on calls, I take a tip from Netta's book. Right. And I open the internal teams chat and talk internally to my coworkers and get alignment that way.

Very, very wise decision.

Thank you. Nada.

Yes, absolutely. I, we just need to have Netta herself come back on the pod again. She's a crowd favorite. And this is great too because I always think it's important for people to get an understanding that everybody at all levels when they are trying to negotiate and there are other stakeholders who need to be part of the negotiation, you have to take the time to have that internal conversation and the same tools that you utilize when you're creating that connection with the other side and using that friendship model of negotiation. I'm assuming the same rules apply as well when you're negotiating internally too?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like you're not just signing the contract and putting it in the drawer. It's going to be a long term relationship. And so you need to make sure that there's a structure and the resources available internally to support that client. And so I think it's just really important that way. And the other thing you're talking about building friendships internally. So especially being a remote employee and having started it at my employer just recently, two years ago, it took a little while for me to build up the relationships and the friendships. And so I make sure that the first time when I talk to them every week, that I ask a little bit about how their week is going and things like that, because I think if the only time that they talk to me is high pressure situations like contracts, they start to associate the name Michelle with pressure and adrenaline and their blood pressure starts to go up and I can't have that. And so I'm like, hey, how was your weekend? Like, how are things going? And so I make a point of casual conversation. I know everybody's busy, so I'm not just like chatting on every single call, but at least the first time I talk to you that week, I make a point of just like connecting and catching up to build that relationship.

So this is so powerful, Michelle, because I think about it from the perspective of classical conditioning, like with Pavlov and his dogs. You know, you have the feeding of the dogs with the pairing of the bell, and then the dog starts to salivate with just the bell. And so if we pair stress and Michelle, people just get stressed when you come. And I think for folks who are in really serious roles that are kind of, you tend to think of them as very serious and serious people are in those roles. Sometimes we create this stigma for ourselves and sometimes we're stigmatized by just the profession too. Because when you're coming in as a lawyer, there are going to be a bunch of assumptions about that.

Absolutely.

And when you think about it, in a company, you have the lawyers, which can often be the bearers of bad news. You have procurement people who are often seen as the like, curmudgeons who only care about money but not about the business unit as a, like a individuals or their fundamentals, mental needs. And it's so important for us to take the time to just connect with people as humans when there is no agenda, while at the same time recognizing that people are busy. So I'm not just going to, you know, usurp all of your time and just talk for hours, but I care enough to touch base and have a warm interaction with you even when there's nothing to talk about.

Yeah, I guess. Just two thoughts on that. So the first is like you made a point of sometimes lawyers are viewed as like very stern and the bearer of bad news. And it was my prior company because it was technology. I used to say I don't want the legal department to be viewed as putting the no in innovation like Michael, because we were, you know, we were innovative in developing technology. I was like, I don't. I'm not the person who puts the no in innovation. So it's like, I want the answer to be yes. Here's how you get to yes. And then to your point about lawyers being stern, like, I agree. And I actually did Contracts karaoke at Contracts Con and got up there and sang just to be a little like more relatable and have some fun and have people see me in a different light. So yeah, I think that's important to just let people see you that way.

Agreed. Agreed. This is amazing, Michelle. I really appreciate you coming on the show today. And before you go, can you let the listeners know how they can get in touch?

Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. Michelle Fleming at Belltech Logic. So look me up.

Awesome. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

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