Navigating the Hidden Job Market with Mac Prichard

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Mac, thanks for joining us again, my friend.

Well, thanks for having me, Kwame. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, it is our pleasure to have you back. And so how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

I run a regional job board. I'm based in Portland, Oregon, and the site is called maxlist.org we help employers find great people and professionals find wonderful jobs here in the Pacific Northwest. One of the things that makes our site stand out, Kwame, is we invest a lot of time and effort in creating content about how to look for work and how to hire smarter. So you'll find hundreds of articles, online courses, and a weekly podcast about job search on our site, as well as many resources for employers. So we attract visitors from all over the United States, not just for our job board, but for the free content we provide people who are looking for a job they can love.

This is great. And yes, listeners, make sure you check out the website and check out Mac's podcast. It is one of the top podcasts in the career section. My friend Mac is very, very humble, so I need to brag for him every once in a while. So make sure you check out that podcast.

I appreciate the plug and you and I duke it out on the careers chart on Apple podcasts, where you're usually ahead of me, Kwame, but sometimes I get a little ahead of you in that top 40 ranking.

That's awesome. And, you know, it's funny because, like, when I, when I started and we were like, I started to get to know you, we met at some of the like at podcast movement. We've been in touch. It's your advice and your tips have been really, really helpful in. For. For me growing. So it's on the charts. It might seem like we're competitors, but then I feel like we're real collaborators. Because you're helping. You've been helping and mentoring in so many ways more than you actually realize, too.

Thank you. And I would say that the other career podcasters that I work with, not only you, but Pete Makaitis at How to be awesome at your job, they're wonderful and very generous with. They not only put out great shows, they're great partners and collaborators as well. Yes.

And I tell you, that's. That's been, for me, one of the best things about the podcasting industry just as a whole. Everybody's so generous and very helpful. You know, it's. And I think it would be cool for the listeners to actually see that behind the scenes, we're genuinely friends for all of us, too. It's been a lot of fun. And listeners, you can tell by the way that Mac and I are chatting right now, we could talk forever. I mean, we were talking forever before the podcast even started. But today we're going to be talking about how to navigate the hidden job market. And right now, there's no surprise. The economy is kind of rough right now. And so I want to make sure that you all are getting the best tips and resources possible when it comes to the job search that a lot of you are on. So, first of all, let's not assume that everybody knows about what we mean by the hidden job market. So when you use that term, Mac, what does that mean to you?

These are the jobs that aren't posted. They're on sites like mine or the big national boards or really published anywhere. They're filled through referrals. Sometimes there might be an internal email about them or maybe on an intranet they'll be posting. But these are largely unadvertised jobs, and there's different research out there, Kwame, about what percentage of jobs are never posted. I've seen estimates as high as 80%, as low as 20. Whatever the percentage, it's an important segment of the market, and it's one that you need to pay attention to. And the good news is you can find these jobs, and there are skills that you can learn that will help you not only uncover them, but put yourself forward as a good candidate. And most job seekers don't learn these skills. And so that means there Often is less competition for these positions because they aren't advertised.

Mac, with this, I want to address the mindset before we get into the skill set too. Because if I'm listening to this, there's a part of me that might say, okay, well, if it's a hidden job market and if they've only advertised internally, and if it's only. They're. They're only interested in giving it to their friends, then why should I even bother trying? Because it seems like the odds are stacked against me because maybe they just had somebody else in mind. So for the person who is feeling maybe a little bit apathetic, what would you say to, like, motivate them, to still encourage them to search the hidden job market?

I'm glad you brought that up, because often the reaction would you begin to have a conversation about the hidden job market is people say, oh, I'm doomed. I don't know anyone inside that organization. I didn't go to a fancy school. But here's what it's important to remember, Kwame, is to understand why the positions aren't posted. And once you understand the why, then you can understand how to get in front of the hiring managers and what it takes to do so. The reason positions aren't posted is because hiring managers want to reduce risk. It's not a good situation when somebody doesn't work out. It's not good for the candidate, it's not good for the company. And often it takes three to six months to figure that out. And that means that the applicant has to start all over again finding a new position, and the company has to start its search again. So nobody wants to see that happen, Neither party. So what do you hiring managers do to reduce the risk of that happening? They rely on referrals. And they turn to people who are already working inside an organization. They turn to people inside their professional networks. They reach out to people who are leaders in the industry or in their local community, and they share the postings. And I would expect every one of your listeners has gotten this email from a former co worker, a classmate, maybe a neighbor that says, hey, we're hiring over at so&so. We'd love to get good candidates, send people my way. And the reason that happens again is the person is looking for referrals. So our challenge when we're looking to crack the hidden job market is to generate those referrals and make sure that we know about them, or those requests for referrals, rather, and make sure we know about them. And there are a number of ways that you can do, a number of steps you can take to do that, and we can talk about that. But again, the good news here is you can, using proven job search techniques, have those referrals sent to you. And I'm looking forward to digging into how to do that.

Absolutely. Oh, this is great. And so, listeners, there's going to be the. With this episode, we're going to talk about, like we said, the hidden job market and then the tools and tactics that you can use and the strategies you can employ. But also, of course, we're going to look at it from the lens of negotiation, too. Like, what are those interpersonal skills that we need to have in place in order to put these strategies into action? So we're going to address it from both sides here. And so, Mac, when you think about somebody who is trying to take advantage of the reality that, hey, there's this hidden job market, I can get jobs from this. How do I get started? What would you say is their first step?

Be clear about what you want. You have to have a clear job search goal. So know the position that you want and make a list of target companies. Maybe 25 organizations that interest you that you would be excited to work for. It can be challenging, Kwame, to get clear about your job search goals, but you need to invest the time up front to do that. You don't want to be telling people, well, I'm looking for work. Let me know if you hear of anything. Because while that's well intentioned, people don't know what you want. And if you say, instead, I'm looking to work as a marketing specialist for an advertising company in our hometown, that's very specific. Now, nine out of 10 people may not know of any opportunities, but one out of 10 may. And when you're specific about what you want, you make it easier for people to think of those opportunities and to make referrals and to connect you with people who are looking for someone who wants that job. The other thing is the importance of target company. Sometimes I'll say this to someone, do you have a target list? And they'll say, well, I'd like to work at this place or that. Have you identified 20 or 25 companies? They haven't. And the problem with that is you can't just focus on one or two places because they may not be hiring at the time. The other reason you want to have a good list of 20 or 25 target organizations is so that you can begin to build relationships with people inside those organizations and make connections that will help you hear about those unadvertised positions.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And I like the idea of being specific too, because I think a lot of times we might be a little bit insecure, apprehensive, or fearful. Maybe it's a lack of willingness to be vulnerable enough to make that request, but it kind of comes out like, well, you know, hey, if I. If you have an opening or if you know anything, you know, just come over that it's so nebulous and unspecific that the person doesn't even know what to do.

And I said those exact words earlier in my career and I also am glad you brought out the point about fear. Sometimes it feels uncomfortable or we're afraid to say what we want. But when we are clear about what we want, we not only write it down, but we say it out loud and we tell others. Then again, we make it not only easy for people to help us and to say yes to whatever request, but it's going to open so many more doors than simply saying hey, if you hear of anything, let me know.

Absolutely. Now how do we start to overcome that fear?

I think it starts once you have clarity about what you want by telling your friends, your family, coworkers what your goal is and be clear about it. And if you're uncomfortable saying it, practice it with someone who's close to you. And in the end you should be able to say to someone who says hey, what are you up to these days? A statement as simple and concise as I'm doing a job search exploring. Find a position as mechanical engineer with mid sized company here in our hometown and I'm especially interested in working at Corporation A, B or C. I'm curious, have you, do you know anyone at those places? Have you heard about any opportunities for Mechanical engineers. I'd welcome your, your ideas and your suggestions. That's very specific. You're not saying, hey, I'm looking for work and if you hear of anything interesting, let me know. I've used that phrase, so I'm not. Again, it's so general. People can't help help you. So whatever your position is, whatever your target companies are, whatever geographic market you want to be in, say it explicitly. And if you feel uncomfortable telling others, practice with friends or family, as with any skill after. At first it feels a little awkward, but with practice and repetition, it'll get easier. And most importantly, people will start to tell you about leads and others that you should pursue and connect with.

You know what I like about this, Mac, is that it's, you've made it very clear for us to understand what it is that we need to do with just a very simple three step approach with the conversation. You just let them know very matter of factly, hey, I'm doing a, I'm in the middle of a job search. And then next step, you state your goal very clearly. For example, I'm a mechanical engineer and I'd like to do this type of work at companies like this, this or that. And then the last step is just asking an engaging question. Do you know anybody at those companies? Or what advice do you have? Or what do you think I should do next? It's just, it's very simple and I feel like you could get that down to like 10 or 20 seconds. Mac, pretty simply just following those three steps, just say, I'm doing a job search. State your goal and then ask an engaging question.

One of the advantages of asking the question, Kwame, is there's no awkward silence after you say I'm doing a job search and I'm looking for a position doing this at these places, by asking a question, you give the, the other person an opportunity to say, oh, I do know someone. Or they may say, oh, I don't, but that's, that's interesting. How did you. I didn't know you were a mechanical engineer. At least there will be a conversation and not an awkward silence.

Yeah, that's great. And I think at the end of the day, that's all we're looking for. We're looking for just an opportunity to have a conversation with somebody about our goals and see if they can help. And the thing is, once you actually get into the conversation and start to have it, it happens pretty organically. But it seems like the biggest challenge is going to be the very beginning, just a question of whether or not you're willing to be bold enough and vulnerable enough. And I guess we would just call that courageous enough to start the conversation and let people know that you're looking for help.

It does take preparation and practice, and it can feel uncomfortable at first, but as you can with practice, it comes, it gets a lot, lot easier. And the other thing, Kwame, to remember is when you're out there, you not only want to have conversations with people you meet, perhaps at industry event, or maybe you're talking to a neighbor, just asking about what you are up to. You want to be strategic about where you go out, who you reach out to. And this is where having that clear job search goal of the position you want and having that list of companies where you want to work can help you. Because if your goal is to be a mechanical engineer and at companies A, B and C and there are 22 other firms on your list, then you can go on LinkedIn and you can see who you know who works at those organizations and you can send them a message and ask if you can connect in person over coffee perhaps, or maybe at their office if they're in a hybrid organization or to have what's called an informational interview. And good informational interviews are vital to finding and uncovering and getting unadvertised jobs. Because a good informational interview lets you do three things. It lets you introduce yourself and share your goals. Second thing it lets you do is ask some specific questions about field you want to work in. You might be curious about what jobs pay in that market, maybe who's hiring, who's growing. And the third thing, a good informational interview that you do is ask for introductions to other people in your area of interest. And when you do all three of those things, you walk away from that conversation. Someone knows who you are, what you want, you're impressed that you asked thoughtful, strategic questions about the industry you both work in. And they've connected you with two or three other people who may be hiring or perhaps might be hearing of jobs that are coming up. That's a successful informational interview. And it like and in the end, it's a business meeting. And I think everybody who's listening to this podcast, we've all run lots and lots of business meetings. And if you think of an informational interview as the same, it gets a lot easier.

I like that last piece there, thinking about it as a business meeting. Let's go a little bit deeper into that part. I know people aren't consciously thinking about it as Something other than a business meeting. But what are the almost unspoken mindsets that might go into that that leads them to think differently about it?

Well, I think many people haven't had experience calling and running an informational interview, and so they're uncertain how to run the meeting. And so I. I find it very helpful in chatting with people. I say to them, look, how many meetings have you run or have you called and what do you want to have at the end of that meeting? And they'll, they'll tell me the process that they follow. It's the same with an informational interview. You're calling the meeting, you set the agenda. You've identified the outcomes that you want. There's a reason why you're meeting with this person. She works in the industry that you want to be in. She's a leader at the company that you're interested in learning more about. She's an expert in salary compensation for the job that you want. There's some ask that you have in mind. And so you need to remind yourself of that. What is it at the end of the meeting when you either hang up the close the zoom call or walk out of the coffee shop that you want to have? That's why I think it's helpful, Kwame, to think about those three outcomes. One, introducing yourself, sharing your goals. Two, asking targeted, specific questions that this person can answer, and three, asking for introductions to others. If you do those three things and you set that agenda before you walk in and you accomplish that and you can do it in 20 to 30 minutes, that is a really successful business meeting, and it's going to be invaluable in helping you uncover and get the advertised jobs.

Yes. I love this, Matt. It's really helpful because you're right. If somebody were to say, hey, Kwame, conduct an informational interview, I wouldn't know what to do. You're right. But then if you just say, this is a. It's a business meeting. Right. You've done tons of these. I mean, that makes it a lot more doable. It's like, yeah, I've done. I've done more than I care to. To remember, you know, and then it helps people to feel a little bit more comfortable in a new situation because you're bringing a mentality that they're very familiar with into that new situation.

Exactly. And you start with the end in mind as you, as you do with almost every business meeting. What is it that I want to see happen at the end of this conversation? What are the outcomes that I want and it's going to help you much more than getting back to mindset, I think, because people either don't think of these conversations as business meetings or haven't just had an opportunity to learn how to do it and get trained in it. Instead, what they default to is, well, let's have coffee, let's talk and I'm doing a search and if you hear of anything, let me know. That's not going to be as productive a conversation compared to one where you lay out those three elements that I discussed earlier. Introducing yourself, sharing your goals, asking targeted questions, asking for connections to others Mac.

I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us. And can you please, before you go, remind the listeners about Max List, the podcast, the job search, posting and everything that you're into.

Thank you, Kwame. I host a weekly career advice podcast as we talked about. It's called find your dream job and you can get it wherever you get your podcast. Every week I talk to a different career expert about the nuts and bolts of job search 25 minute show. We get really granular, but if you're looking for specific strategic and tactical advice, that's what we do. And if you come to our website, maxlist.org you will find a job board with lots of positions in Oregon and Washington. Some are remote, but you also find in our Learn section hundreds of articles and resources for job seekers. And I also invite listeners to connect with me on LinkedIn and be sure to mention you heard me on Kwame's show.

Mac, really appreciate you coming on the show today. Thanks again. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team, so welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficulty conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.