Navigating the Unknown: Entrepreneurship and Negotiation with John Bolaji

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John, thanks for joining us today.

I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah man, we're happy to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, so my name is John Balaji. I'm co founder of Trad House. We are a online first premium African traditional attire online experience really to make it a lot easier to get men's traditional, especially out in the diaspora in the us, Canada, uk, stuff like that. Been working on it for a few months. Well, honestly over a year now. We just launched last month, so the behind the scenes has been going on for a while, but we've been out to the world for just a month now or so and it's been really excited working on it. It's been a fun journey. It's been a hard journey in a lot of ways, but I'm really, really excited to be working on it.

Amazing. And yeah, I know you and your team have been doing incredible work and even though you just started, when you look online it does not look like you all have. So as a fellow entrepreneur, I'm quite jealous of how strong your start has been because you knew that you're filling a need and it's cool to see that positive response from the community and the patrons. And before we get into the negotiation of it all, I think it would be really helpful to just set the stage with our listeners because I'm assuming a lot of them are not familiar with TRAD or traditional African wear. What was the problem in the market you were trying to solve with Trout House?

Yeah, definitely. So I'll give a little bit of personal context because it helps tell the story. I'm Nigerian My family moved here before I was born, so I'm a first generation, first one in my family to be born in the US So I'm kind of like that direct link between those two areas of my life, those two cultures. Fully raised in the US but by fully Nigerian parents and a part of, you know, not just Nigerian culture, but I'm speaking from the Nigerian perspective, honestly. All of African. A lot of different cultures, African, West African looks a lot similar in a lot of ways, but a big part of that culture is the kind of clothes that we wear for different reasons. You know, cultural events. Weddings especially are a big one. Birthday celebrations, big parties. They're really seen as, especially out in the U.S. something that you wear for special occasions. And so I grew up wearing them. You know, been back to Nigeria several times, and we get a chance to, you know, get some clothes from when we're in Nigeria for these celebrations that we're going to, then we bring them back and we can wear them in the U.S. but growing up, one thing that when we weren't able to go back to Nigeria, you know, super frequently, we don't go back every year. Trying to find those clothes for celebrations and stuff like that in the US was, in a sense, just difficult. It was terrible. It was difficult for, I think, three kind of like, main reasons that we were trying to identify. The main one, I think, well, they're all the main ones, and I'll talk a little bit more about why I struggle to put them in the right order. But the first one I'll talk about is the whole process of figuring out what it is that you're going to get. You have an idea in your mind. And buying clothes is something that there's so many different ways to do it. You can have an idea in your mind of, I want exactly this thing. It's never been made before, but I need someone to go and make it. And traditional African clothing is, you know, very often handmade specifically by a tailor. You know, there's a lot of analogies to kind of like the Western suit tailors and stuff like that, who all make everything by hand and they have their own style and everything. And so you can sometimes have an idea of exactly what you want, or you can see something that you, you know, you saw at a party. And it's like, I want something like that, but a little bit different. And then trying to communicate that to a tailor that, you know, you got to find a tailor first here in the US and it's, you know, hit or miss, whether they are a good one or not. You don't always know. Or hopefully you're going back to Nigeria in the near future and you can go to a tailor in Nigeria that, you know, does work. But then that's a whole other. There's a very big logistical issue of trying to get to Nigeria, trying to get it out of there, etc. So the first kind of issue is like, how do I even communicate what it is that I want to have made? And then the second one kind of tied into that dimension a little bit is where am I going to get it from? If I'm getting it from a tailor in the U.S. it's oftentimes like, really, really expensive because there's, you know, it's not as commonly worn in the US there's not as many people here who wear it. And so the tailors are fewer and far between supply and demand. The prices go up. You know how it goes. And then the third thing is the materials that they're made out of. Know there's been a lot of interesting developments in how people have been making clothes in the last few decades, I'd say, in terms of making them out of new materials that are more comfortable, that are better at fitting different figures and body shapes and things like that. And the traditional African clothing that we typically grew up wearing didn't have any of that. It was all very stiff material that wasn't very forgiving. And so it looked really, really great all the time. Looked nice. But you're going to these things to celebrate, you're going to dance. You start moving around in them and you realize that this isn't all that comfortable. And so for us, kind of like the problems that we were trying to solve were, how do we make it easier to get in the US how do we make it such that we can understand what it is we're going to get? We can describe to somebody what we're going to get, and we can trust that we're going to get what we described. And also how do we make it out of better material? So that's really, I think, the main points of it.

I love it. Yeah, man. And, you know, my name is African, but my family from the Caribbean, I always have to give this the square because I hang out with you and your family and all my friends happen to be Nigerian. So people get confused. But I was always just blown away at the logistical challenge of getting this traditional ware. And, yeah, it's. You're going to solve so many problems and help make these celebrations more about the celebrations than the frustration in making sure that things arrive and the quality and the time that you want them to arrive. So this is really important. And for you all, you're in many ways, kind of creating a market and then leading a market and building something that's never been built before. And in order to do that, you have to navigate the unknown. And in this episode, we're going to focus not only on negotiation skills in general, but these initial negotiations for information. And I think so many times we can get so focused on the transactional elements of negotiation, which are important. We can think about the relationship dynamics within a negotiation, which are vitally important, but we don't often think about the targets of our negotiation. We always focus on the tangible, but not enough on the intangible. So when you started this process, what are some of the difficult conversations that led you to where you are today?

There were so many. I don't even know where to start. It's really interesting. You kind of like, you know, you bring up that idea of the people who are a part of the negotiation, because starting out, you know, my background is not in fashion. It's not in clothing. Like I said, I've been wearing these clothes all my life, but they weren't something that I learned how to make myself. And I didn't know to like any clothes myself. And so when I first started out, I was like, all right, we know that the clothes can be made. The online experience isn't really there. And I've dabbled in some tech stuff, making websites, making user experiences and stuff like that. So I know kind of like. And we see out in the world of technology that any UI can be made. So it's like, all right, I see these things out in the world exist. It shouldn't be that hard to put them together. Right? Obviously wrong. I first started kind of going down the path of, all right, I need to learn everything there is about making clothes and making Nigerian clothes and all these different things. And that just proved even just the starting point of, like, okay, where do I even start to, like, learn about this information? Because, you know, ultimately, I'm not going to become a tailor myself to make these things. That probably isn't the most efficient use of kind of like how we figure out the marketplace and everything like that. I need to know enough to be dangerous, but I'm not going to be the person that's making these on a. On a regular basis. So I need to find someone who can really tell me, you know, where I can start. And that was just, it was, in a lot of ways I didn't even know why I was going to be this difficult because like in this information age, we feel like we can just Google anything and like that at least get us down the right path. But you're trying to Google the different terms for how you want to make clothes and the results you get back aren't exactly what you expect. And there's also like not a, it is not like a, I guess, central place, not central place, but there's not like, you know, some very clear places that you can go to say like, oh, I want to, you know, get more information about this topic. You know, for example, like made to measure manufacturing or made to measure clothing. Like, how do they, you know, how does that work? And you start looking into clothing manufacturing and it's like, yeah, no one really does mates measure manufacturing. That's not a term that exists. And so I'm like, all right, well I, I think people do it so like, where am I going wrong with my, with my search? And then I, you know, I've been really blessed to have like, you know, over the years build a pretty cool network across different experiences that I've had. And after a kind of a long, probably too long of a time spinning my wheels on like, all right, I don't even know where to go. Let me just reach out to my network, not mind you, like I said, I'm not in fashion, I don't, I'm not in the clothing manufacturing space. So my network isn't specifically in that as well. But you know, let me just reach out to people and see if anyone can point me in the right direction. And so I sound a message to a group of friends that I made in business school and immediately I just got like such a better, such a better direction of like where I should be focusing my, my fact finding and research and stuff like that. And so that helped me start talking to people who are going to give me the right terms for what I was even looking for in the first place. And then they can point me in the direction of people who can actually be partners with us in this business and things like that. And to the point of like, you know, when it's, you're reaching out to your personal network, you know, and people have reached out to me about this stuff all the time or people reach out to me about things all the time and I'm happy to share what I can. I'm happy to point people in the right direction for nothing in return. That's kind of what being in a, in a network like that is to me. It's, you know, how do you give back and how can you, you know, leverage your network? People always say that. So when I reached out to my personal network, I didn't feel too, you know, bad or too sheepish about saying, like, hey, guys, like, I need some help with something. I'm not trying to, like, I don't have anything to offer in return, but, like, I need some help with this. And so that was fine. But when they pointed me to the people who I, you know, these are now professionals in the world of clothing manufacturing, understanding how clothes get made. These are people who, like, their time is valuable and I have nothing to offer them for the most part. So, like, how am I going to get information out of them? And. And that became a little bit of a. Of a different journey and different conversation.

This is fascinating, John, because one of the things we always say on this show is that negotiation is an information game. The more information you have and the higher quality the information you have, the better you will be at negotiation. But. But now we're recognizing that, yes, negotiation is an information game, but sometimes information is the whole game of the negotiation. And that's where we were at the beginning. And we talk so much about the importance of a network, but this is a prime example because you have your personal network, you have your professional network, and you accumulate these relationships over time. And a lot of times you don't know exactly how or when or if you will ever use the connection, but it's nice to know that you have those there. And when you talk about using the network to find people like the professionals, I tell you, it's a great example of how even though we live in the information age and we can find information very quickly online, it shows how important the people to people, relationships we have are. Because there are going to be some times every once in a while where the information that we have that we want to find is quite obscure and there's not a lot of search engine juice behind it, and it's not online. And I remember when I first started practicing law, I was connected with a mentor. He was an older lawyer. And he said, okay, what I want you to do is find, do research on me. Just figure out everything that you can find on me and then report back. And I was like, yes, sir. So I go online and I find like a paragraph. And he's like, this is it. I said, yeah. I mean, Mark, you have a very small digital footprint. He he's like, you just searched online. That was it. And I said, yeah, I mean, what else is there, Mark? The Internet is everything. And he's like, did you pick up a phone? Did you call anybody? You didn't do any of this hard work. And so it's, we've recognized that now because we have so much access to information, it has almost deteriorated our ability to find information that is not in those common areas. And the network is something that we, we have as a resource, but we don't use as often because we're just so used to doing things the. The new school way, which is just Google and help.

Yeah, yeah, there's definitely an assumption that like, everything there is to be known can be found online. And that is just, you know, definitely not the case. And I think, you know, implicitly, we all know that like, expertise is not knowledge. And so like, we know that to find expertise you got to talk to people. But it sounds, I mean, like what you're saying and I agree with, is that like not just expertise, but like literally knowledge, like there's just some things that have not been archived in ways that the Google that the, the information search engines of the world can, can help us understand and go figure out what we need to figure out next. And yeah, that was, that was a very important lesson for me to learn. Like I said, not quite early on. I wish it was earlier on, but earlier than today for sure.

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Yeah, I like to think that, you know, me as a connection is. Is somewhat valuable. You know, I think it's like when you have something that you're building, I think like we were. That you think there's, you know, real value behind it, and there's going to be, you know, whether it's demand for it, it's going to solve some problem, like there's something that you are working on that has potential. The potential may never be realized, but people can recognize potential. And so when I reached out to these people, I think the only thing I had to offer was the potential of what I was doing and what I could become and what this could become. And that was enough to kind of get some of those conversations going so that people realize, like, you're. And, you know, when you reach out to certain people or when people point you in certain directions or typically point you in directions of people who are happy to, you know, indulge newcomers and stuff like that. Not quite hobbyist, you know, like. Like you said, these are people who are still getting paid for the information, typically that you're about to ask them. But they recognize that newcomers don't have a lot of those resources. And so they're more happy. They're. They're more willing and accepting of, you know, having some initial conversations with people. But I think what really allowed me to get my foot in the door and have productive conversations was that idea of potential and showing this is what we're working on. You know, no one else has ever really done it before. There's not a lot of good solutions out there, and it's in a. A place that is, you know, getting a lot more cultural relevance. The population is growing. There's really. There's a lot of really interesting things that could develop with it. And that potential is something that you have a chance to partake in if we have this discussion. And so that was really how I was able to get my foot into the door for those conversations. And even the conversations that ultimately didn't end up in a partnership or who were, you know, we're going to work with, they always ended well because people recognize, like, you know what, we might not be the right place for you, or we might not be the right thing for you, but what we. We think what you're doing is really cool, and we're excited to see kind of where it goes. And I always felt like as long As I was able to leave a conversation like that, you know, every something was still gained.

Yeah, I agree. And it, this is really fascinating too because selling them on the potential, it seems as though it was almost framed as a potential investment. So hey, let's have this conversation and if there is something that we could do in the future together, then we could have this collaboration. But it sounds like you were really transparent about where you are now and why you wouldn't be able to like compensate them in a traditional way at that time. And when you think about how you were building the case for them, when you were trying to persuade them on your potential, what are some of the main points, the main drivers you think that really move the needle in terms of persuasion for them?

Yeah, I think it's, it's, you know, you mentioned investment. It's kind of like, it's a little funny because you're, you're saying some of the similar things that you would say to potential investors who are, you know, the only thing they're going to offer is some kind of financial investment. But I was talking to manufacturers people who like, you know, if we could come to a, you know, mutual agreement, they will be actually making the close for us and be a part of the process or talking to technology professionals who could actually help us with the, the user experience that we were trying to create. And instead of trying to like, tell them like, okay, here's your, you know, if you invest financial money in a, if you invest your finances in us, here's the ROI that you're going to get in purely financial terms, especially when, for example, talking to like manufacturers. And I learned a lot about the world of clothing manufacturing. I'm not going to dive too deeply into the details here, but for example, I was talking to someone who it manufactured dress shirts which have, you know, some similar high premium quality to them. You know, things like that, things that we want to see represented in our, in our clothing. And when I talk to them about it, they're like, yeah, we know we don't really like our, the way that we manufacture isn't set up to do something that's not dress shirts. Actually we can configure different kinds of dress shirts and things like that or like what you're asking seems a little bit beyond our scope and ability. However, you know, if this becomes something that is actually, you know, really truly a big enough market, we can invest the time and resources it takes to start, you know, adding that to our lines and stuff like that and so telling like the Thing that moved the needle for them. And like, for example, this manufacturing conversation that I had didn't come to an agreement. They're not investing new lines to, you know, manufacture stuff for us at this time. But the thing that moved the needle to cause them to consider that was the idea that there is a big enough market in a. In something that they don't currently offer that is growing, and they want to be one of the first people that can offer that service. And so kind of like that ability to be like the first to the next big thing was something that was really tempting to a lot of. Not, let me not say tempting, but really interesting to a lot of people who are like, you know, this isn't what we do right now, but I could see a world in which we work together given, you know, X, Y, Z number occurs, or you can show us this level of demand or something like that, and then we can. We could, you know, have those negotiations or have those conversations further. But it was really just kind of like that idea of if this is as big as we think it might be, you could be one of the people who was the first to learn how to do it at scale. That is a really good place to be in the market for you.

That's smart. Yeah. And essentially it serves almost as a pre negotiation because you're not committing to anything. They're not committing to anything, but they're just saying, hypothetically, if you could get to these numbers, then we would be interested. We can worry about the details later, but that gives you an end to follow up with them after the fact and say, hey, you remember eight months ago when we had this conversation? Well, you said these numbers. Well, actually, these are the numbers right now. What do you think about a continued conversation? So again, with the negotiation for information, it often serves as a pre negotiation for something that could be a little bit more substantive down the road. And I know for you too, because you, like you said at the beginning, you straddle the line between Nigeria and America. So you have feet in both worlds really well. And also you have this incredible background in business as well. So you speak that language. And even though everybody in these conversations is speaking English, we might be speaking very different languages. And so can you talk about the difference in the way you might approach a manufacturer who was not based in Nigeria or have any connection to the culture versus how you would interact with and pitch people who were familiar with the culture? And then the problem that it is that you're trying to solve with Trad.

House that's a really, really good, interesting question. I'm trying to try to kind of like lay the, lay the, the context correctly because I did have those conversations. And it's, it's not just about language. And I understand the kind of, the question is about the language and I think I'm going to, you know, I'm going to answer that. But it also is rooted in the reality of some of those different areas. And the reason I say that is talking to someone, you know, based in West Africa about manufacturing clothing or manufacturing, you know, anything. There's different realities of doing business in West Africa or there's different realities of trying to do things at scale, you know, in West Africa, in Nigeria. And so when you have a conversation with someone about I want to do XYZ thing and like, they know what Nigerian clothes are, they know what's happening clothes are. But you start talking to them about like, yeah, I want to, you know, manufacture X thousand units or whatever it may be. You know, they're like, hold up. I don't, I don't. That's, that's not something that we can do here. Here's, you know, I can get 10 people to do 100 each. And like, they're all going to do it in their own different ways. And there's a lot of subcontracting out and stuff like that. And so just like talking to them about it was a different conversation in terms of what I'm trying to get you to do differently than you do right now. Whereas talking to places in, you know, America, for example, I talked to a manufacturer out in Arizona who do nothing about Nigerian clothes and nothing about kind of all that stuff. But they knew a lot about how to manufacture custom clothes at scale. And so the conversation with them was, you know, nothing about this. I'm going to wear it in this video meeting and you're still not going to get the idea. But this is what we're trying to do. And I think in, in a lot of ways there's, you know, there's trade offs, right? There's difficulties and things that are easy about each of those conversations. When talking with the American manufacturers, what you're trying to do is communicate a new idea. The new idea you're trying to communicate to them is a new type of clothing. And there is a structured language around communicating new types of clothing. I'm forgetting to come some of the names for them right now, but you have different drafting patterns, stuff like that. There's like a, there's sophisticated enough machines now where it's like almost like 3D printing, how you can have, like, a 3D printing file. You can have, like a clothing file that tells you how to, like, not 3D print clothing, but, like, you know, cut the lines correctly and stuff like that. And so there's almost a more structured way of saying, you've never seen this before, but here's the files for it, and they can more quickly understand, like, okay, like, this is what you're trying to do. Let's see if we can, you know, we can make that work. Even though I know nothing about Nigerian clothes, then the conversation about, you know, trying to do things at scale with places in West Africa and places outside of America who are familiar with the clothing. You don't have to explain to them, like, oh, you know, I want an Etsy Bow or, you know, that's a. A particular kind of shirt that's worn in Nigeria, or, I want a senator fit. Like, they know those words to some degree a little bit, much easier than someone else will. But when I start talking to them about, like, okay, and it needs to have this level of repeatability because it's going to be at scale and things like that. Trying to communicate. Those new dudes. No, those new kind of. I don't want to say new. It's like, I'm not saying there's no manufacturing that happens in these places, but trying to, like, communicate what we want out of the standards of our. Of our operation, essentially, that's a lot more nebulous. There's not a structured language around that anywhere, to be honest. Even if you're, you know, having that conversation in America, having it in Europe, whatever it may be, there's not as many structured languages or there's not as many kind of like, structured terms and things like that to help you describe to someone this new idea of, here's what I'm trying to do from, like, an operational standard perspective. And so the biggest differences in those conversations was like, all right, for you, I'm trying to explain a cultural item, but the cultural item is clothing. And clothing has a language when it comes to manufacturing. On this side, I'm trying to explain to you an operation, and it's an operation that you've never done before, and it's really hard to build, and you have to build it from the ground up. And, like, everyone's going to have a different name for it no matter where you go. So we. And you would need to have a ongoing relationship in order to. In order to create that language for us together. So we can get to the right standard of operation.

That's fascinating. That is fascinating. And so essentially, each of these conversations can sound very, very different, but they are both geared towards moving the company and the business forward. And I think what's important, too, is for people who are listening to just give yourself the right to flex as necessary. And when we think about it through the lens of cultural intelligence, we would call this a version of code switching. But one thing that is not explored enough when it comes to code switching is that code switching, when done well, is rooted in your authentic experience. And if you are trying to change yourself in order to communicate with somebody or in order to fit in or assimilate, and it feels like you're compromising, compromising core elements of your identity, then something is off within the culture you're trying to fit into, or just within what you're trying to accomplish in this scenario. But what's brilliant about this is that because of your background, your cultural background, and because of your business background and your academic background, you can speak incredibly fluidly when you're talking to folks in West Africa, and you can speak incredibly fluently when you're talking to business manufacturers in America who know nothing of your culture. And so as we talk about just getting more into the code switching nature of it, what are some of the things that were either maybe surprising or noteworthy from that angle of those interactions?

Yeah, no, that's a really interesting way of putting it, because I've been doing it so long almost that I can kind of forget that it's like a whole term. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm code switching right now. And you know, me, you know, my family, we go way back. We've been all over the U.S. and even within, moving around different regions in the U.S. i went from Ohio to Texas, and people thought I talked weird because I was from Ohio, not because I was speaking like a Nigerian, because I was speaking like an Ohioan. So all my life I've just learned how to like, all right, I'm in a new place. How do people talk here? Let me figure out. How do I make sure I can be heard? And I think maybe the most surprising thing, the most surprising thing about that aspect of it from these conversations was honestly, and it's really a positive thing, the degree to which, you know, for example, like, non West Africans or, you know, non Nigerian folks were excited to hear about a new, you know, kind of culture that they could work with. You know, it's not like they were like, ah, you know, what that isn't like, we don't, you know, just. I don't know how many Nigerians are out in Arizona, for example, but the people I talked to in Arizona were some of the most helpful, excited people that I worked with. And even when I. They recognized that, like, we were still, you know, very relative or very, very, relatively very, very small fish for people in terms of people that they typically work with, they were still so excited about, like, oh, like, you know, this is something that seems really interesting. Like we're not going to do it right now, but we would love to hear more about it when the time is right. And there were, there was no kind of aversion to something that was foreign to them. And on the other side, when talking to people in West Africa, the appetite there is for that kind of like level of economic development was really, really encouraging where it's something that people aren't, you know, there's not a whole wholesale or a very large scale industrial manufacturing or clothing manufacturing base in, in terms of what we're trying to do when it comes to clothing manufacturing that doesn't exist right now in Nigeria. And you know, working with, talking to tailors and people who make the clothes and things like that, that's something that, you know, is very close to their line of work and they are excited about. Okay, this means I could actually, you know, be creating a lot more things. I could work more on the designs of things as opposed to just trying to put things together. There was just a lot of excitement, you know, no matter who I was talking to, a lot of excitement about what it was and learning what kind of. Because when I'm trying to, you know, explain what I'm doing or my new concepts to these people is an excitement about learning the language that I'm code switching from to translate to them. They're like, oh, like I've been, you know, I didn't call this that before or I haven't heard of this concept that you're talking about. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? And it almost feels like I get to be a cultural ambassador across a lot of different things in terms of here's where I'm coming from that you're excited to learn about. And I can be the conduit that you learn that thing.

Brilliant. So fascinating. And John, one last point before we run. Because when you think about these difficult conversations that we have personally, professionally, whatever it happens to be, they can be simplified if hypothetically we. The conversation existed within a vacuum. Like there were no other external forces, no emotions, no nothing. We could. It's a lot easier to navigate those conversations just by itself. But we also recognize that that never happens because we're complex and dynamic individuals and have complex and dynamic networks.

Right.

And one of the things that's really tough about business in general is the level of resilience and grit that you need to. To have just to exist in that world, especially when you're trying to lead an organization. So I think about it in terms of the entrepreneurial rollercoaster. Within an hour, you could have the best thing ever and the worst thing ever happen, like, several different times. And then at the top of the hour, you have an important call and you have to compose yourself. And so when you're under that kind of pressure and there's so many different shifts and distractions that could happen emotionally, substantively, just day to day in the business, how do you gather yourself and get to this point of, like, a peaceful enough foundation for you to operate at a high level every day in these tough conversations?

That's a really good question, and I have two answers for you. My first answer is to be fully authentic about what I'm going through, what I'm experiencing, what my experiences have been. I think in entrepreneurial spaces, there's obviously this idea of you're always trying to put your best foot forward and show people the best side of what's going on, being the most optimistic. And I think that's important, and definitely something I do a lot. I can improve on things like that. But at the end of the day, when you're going through all these different shifts that are impacting you to the degree which it might impact your work. For me, I felt like it's important to be authentic about those things and being like, you know, I got this meeting right now, I'm about to have this conversation, and life's been a little bit crazy. I might be a little bit off my game. I. Sometimes I, you know, I don't. You don't need to dive into the full details and give people a soft story or anything like that. But you can let people know, like, hey, you know, things have been a little bit crazy. So apologies. You know, we might need to do this again at some other time if we don't get to where we want to go in this conversation. So first answer is kind of that authenticity. And the second answer, following up from that and staying true to myself, is I don't know that. I always do a great job of being, you know, fully composed and Doing all that stuff and always operating at a high level. I think the, the level at which I operate, it can vary and it varies for a lot of different reasons. External factors, internal factors, things like that. And so I don't try and necessarily, and maybe measure myself at like a baseline level of like, you know, this is a high level at which I'm operating. It's more. I try and have a process that I always follow that will kind of, you know, make sure that I'm staying in the right direction and, and, and at least pushing myself towards that, you know, high level baseline. And for me, that process is, you know, just a lot of mindfulness. I don't, you know, do a whole lot of like structured meditation. I used to do a lot more of it, but for me it just became more of like a. There is some ideas around the, the mindfulness aspect of meditation that like you just take with you as a part of your, you know, every breath, every waking moment you can. And this becomes less a thing that you do on occasion or it becomes less a practice and more of a thing that you kind of just like are naturally trying to do all the time. And so I just find myself like walking down the street and I just remember like the thought comes to me to you know, do one of my mindfulness practices, things like that. And like, you know, I stop right there or not stop, but like, you know, I do it there in my mind and it becomes kind of like a more of every moment thing. And it's not perfect, you know, I lapse a lot. And at the end of the day, there's not like a journey or there's not a destination that you reach to say like, ah, yes, like I've meditated. It's just something that you're kind of always doing. And because you're always doing it, there's not because. Or sorry, because it's not, sorry, a destination. It's something that even if you lapse for a while, when you pick it back up, you're not like, oh man, like I laughed for a while, I got to catch up. Just like you were going to be doing this regardless, you know, as long as you can, as long as you live. So just pick it back up and continue practicing it. So yeah, be authentic with people. Tell them what you're going through to some degree and you know, be true to yourself and don't. For me, I don't always try and hold myself to a standard that it's just not realistic to always be meeting when so much of life, both internally and externally has been crazy over the last few years.

Yeah, absolutely, man. I love this advice too. And I think especially that first part. We don't give ourselves enough grace in those situations because we have this mythical stoic professional that performs perfectly all the time. Everybody's still looking for that person so we can beat them up. That's just not our experience. And I love the fact that you said, hey, it's okay to be vulnerable and share, but you were mindful of, hey, but don't overshare. Don't get to that point where it undermines your credibility or crosses that line into, what is it, narcissistic vulnerability where it's like, okay, now it's all about me. And I remember there was one time, one of the biggest negotiations in the history of the company. I had a rough night with Dominic. You know, our. Our little baby had a rough night sleeping. And I just sent him an email right there in the middle of the night. I said, hey, listen, I've been up with Dominic all night. I will not be at my best tomorrow. You mind if we just push this? They're like, yeah, we understand. Because what's worse, just saying, like showing, hey, you know what, I am an imperfect human. Sometimes I have bad nights. I'm not going to be at my best admitting that that's option one or trying to like, muscle through it and then being completely unhinged and blowing the deal.

Yeah.

You know, so you, you really have to just be honest with yourself and be honest with the others, with other people, and you'll be really surprised pleasantly so on how much grace you get. But yeah, man, every. We're all struggling with it. And I love asking this type of question too, because it makes me feel better about myself because I too have fallen short. And I think that's really important for us to recognize because when you can treat yourself with a little bit of self compassion and self forgiveness, it makes it a lot easier for you to still be confident and show up as your best self when you're trying to recover.

Definitely, definitely. And it also helps me kind of like have empathy for the people I'm talking with as well. Because, like, I'm reminding myself, like, you know, like, I'm not perfect. I'm going through stuff that they don't even know about. I. It just allows you to be a tad more forgiving. And again, like, you know, you don't want to take it too far and let people walk all over you or anything like that. But just that whole Idea of being like, you know, we all live here. It's. We're all on this shared experience together and kind of going through that and it gives me a, I don't know, I don't want to say an extra dimension to like kind of like helping these conversations, stuff like that. But just everyone remembering that everybody in the, in the environment is a human that's kind of going through stuff. You know, we're all having a lot of crazy shared experiences externally right now. And that's not even to speak of anything about that, what people might be going through on the inside. So it just helps me remember that everyone else is a human as well and it's not going to be perfect all the time. And I can, I can work with them a little bit better when I know that.

Exactly. Oh, this is great, man. Well, listen, before you go, remind the listeners about you about Trad House and how they could become part of the movement.

Yeah, you know, you can go to our website@tradhouse.com it's T R A D H A U-S dot com. Check out what we have to offer. Design your own outfit. You know, we currently are making men's traditional African clothing, but that does not mean that, you know, anyone can come and look at the website. There's a lot of people who have men in their life that like to buy gifts for and I. We're recording this around Christmas time. I don't know if it'll be out by then, but there's always a good time to buy a gift for somebody. So check us out@trad House.com See what we're offering. And obviously, you know, we're early on in the process. We're getting a lot of great feedback from people. If you have more comments, feedbacks, questions about our process, how we do things, why we do things, what you'd like to see out of it, we'd love to hear it. You can email us@hellotradhouse.com as well.

Amazing. John, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me. It was great seeing you.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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