Navigating Toxic Corporate Waters with Jamie Fiore Higgins

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I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Jamie, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. I'm Jamie Fiore Higgins. I am an ex Wall street employee. I worked at Goldman Sachs for 18 years, turned executive coach. And after I took a break from work, I had the benefit of taking some time to really dissect what I had been a part of. And I realized that not only had I been part of a very punitive and toxic environment and had endured situations because of that, I also perpetuated it. And it was a really kind of realization that hit me after I had the ability to stop and look away. So I decided to write it down and I wrote a book about it. It's called Bully My Story of Money and Misogyny at Goldman Sachs. And it was published earlier this year. Between talking about my book and what I do as an executive coach, I really want to shine a light on the importance of healthy workplaces, inspire some conversation and create some change.

I love this.

This is great. And the work you do is so important. And I Know, you do executive coaching to help people to actually create that positive change.

That's right. I have had the ability to work with a lot of different people and then actually after my book was written, have heard from probably close to a thousand people right now that really show me because I actually left right before MeToo. And so, you know, there was a little bit of me. Get me wrong, I still talk to people in the industry and I kind of knew that these type of environments were still alive and well, even post all the social justice movements that have happened of late. But after hearing from my readers, I know it's alive and well and people really need support out there to be able to continue to work and thrive in their organizations.

Agreed, definitely. And there are other books out there on like, workplace toxicity and things like that. One of the things that's interesting about the way that you are approaching it and the way that you're even describing it, which I really admire, is you said how you even perpetuated some of that toxicity. And can you tell a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Absolutely. You know, kind of like that kid on the playground who was bullied for years. How they grow up to become the bully. That was me. And it was really important to me to not only write a book that showcased the stuff that I had to deal with, which was a lot of times wholly inappropriate, but how I kind of bought in to this culture, this culture of negativity, punitive, scarcity mindset where bullying, shaming, a lack of psychological safety was just my normal. And, you know, it was my only career out of college. And I spent more time awake within Goldman Sachs walls than anywhere else. And I really bought into it that in order to succeed on Wall street, you had to behave a certain way in order to survive and thrive. Funny part of it is I actually wanted to be a social worker out of college. So I was really like wanting to be this do gooder, make the world a better place. We could kind of talk about why I ended up on Wall street, but if you could have seen how I started in 1998, and yet the kind of behavior I was engaging in in 2015, it's like, what has become of me? I abandoned all of my morals and my values in order to attain money and success. And it just got to the point where I couldn't look at myself in the mirror anymore. And I finally was able to extricate myself. And in that kind of liminal state, if you will, kind of when I was decompressing from Goldman and figuring out what was next. For me, it really made it very clear why I accepted what I accepted and why I did what I did. And it was really because the organization set it up that that was what you needed to do in order to do well.

Yeah. And incentives drive behavior. And so when you're in that environment, it's. It's almost the. It can feel like it's the only way to continue to move forward and advance. I think the thing that's so powerful about this, the fact that you're opening up about this, is that a lot of times when we approach these conversations, and I think thought leaders in the negotiation and conflict resolution space can do this too. We vilify the person who is using air quotes for the audio listeners, the bad guys. In this situation, we approach it like you have to slay the dragon, but we don't take the time to empathize with what that person is going through because you've brought some important humanity to this. Because empathy doesn't mean agreement or endorsement. It's just understanding. And just simply by you taking the time to open up about your experience, it's helping us to become better communicators by elevating our ability to empathize with people, even if we don't agree with.

What they're doing 100%. What I realized is after I extricated myself out, so much stuff was normalized, so much behavior was ignored, then normalized, then escalated. So we were all kind of in this world where. And don't get me wrong, at first, I would say, this doesn't seem right, and I would kind of, you know, wave it and then be like, oh, you're just being dramatic, and you're kind of almost gaslit. Like, this is just the way it is here. And to your point, you know, I look back and I was actually assaulted while I was at work. And, you know, I look back on what that man did to me, and I look at him with grace, and I give him grace because I did some bad things that I had to ask colleagues and quite honestly, my family to forgive me for. And so if I'm accepting grace, I have to give grace. Because we were kind of all in this crazy, dysfunctional world where I know for myself I wasn't behaving based on who I truly am and what my personal mission statement is for this world. So how can I judge? I don't appreciate it. Right? But I understand, like, who knows what's going on in everyone's life? I know for Myself, I engage in a lot of behavior that was so counter to who I was in order to survive. I would be foolish to think I was the only one everyone was doing it.

Oh, that's powerful. I appreciate you sharing, I really do. And again, this is a great example of saying, again, when we're empathizing, we can understand that people are going through some things that might lead them to do bad things, some really unspeakably bad things. And we're not condoning that behavior or saying it's okay again. It's that understanding element that helps us to become better at what we need to do to actually make the situation better. And so let's say there's somebody listening right now, and they say, wow, Jamie is talking about my toxic workplace.

We.

I'm dealing with some really tough things right now. Where does that person start when it comes to what they can do to make the situation better?

You know, for me, the reason why I tolerated and engaged in behavior is because my identity was so tied to what I did. And listen, you know what? Usually if it's not the first thing someone asks you, it's the second, what do you do? What do you do? As if, you know, the only thing that's worthwhile about us is what we do to make money, right? As. As if all the other sides of us, you know, don't exist. And I wore my Goldman Sachs managing director title with such pride, like, and Goldman was so good, and making you feel that that place was super special and that you were nothing without them, nothing without their name, nothing without their money. So the problem was Goldman Sachs was on a higher pedestal in my life than my family, my husband, my children, my mother. So to the person you know, listening is in a toxic environment. I say, know who you are.

Are.

Know who you are, what you stand for and what you want, and try to get some distance between you and your employee. I really was so enmeshed in that culture, I didn't think I could leave. I felt like I was a prisoner because they made me feel like if I left, I'd be nothing. And the sick, twisted reality was the door wasn't even locked.

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So I say to my clients, first of all, you are the CEO of your own career. I don't care who signs your paycheck. Consider yourself a contractor. So you have the ultimate choice of where you work. You have the ultimate choice of what you tolerate as a CEO of your own career. Get a board of directors outside your organization. Talk to someone outside your organization. A trusted advisor. I know a lot of companies have mentor programs. To me, I don't really feel that you can mentor within a company. I think you can sponsor difference. I had a mentor I talk about in my book. I just talked to her two days ago. She cared about me deeply, but she was wearing the twisted lenses coated with toxicity too. So we were like the blind leading the blind. If you will get someone outside your organization to really look clearly about what is going on, what you're really experiencing, what your options are, what you can do about it, and know that whether you stay or go, you're taking with you your goodies, your skill, your abilities that are in you. You know, when I left Goldman Sachs, I took all my goodies. They made me feel like I left all my goodies at the door. All the things that made me good, but they were inherently mine. Don't get me wrong. Goldman opened doors for me and gave me access. But I use my own skills. So I think it's very, very important to get a sense of who you are, know that you have a choice and get the support outside the organization to really analyze the situation, figure out what you want, and make one small step to make the change. You know, it's. It starts with the first step. There's this Mark Twain quote I love. I have it on my computer. The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex, overwhelming tasks into small manageable ones and starting on the first one. So if you're in a toxic workplace and you just feel stuck, it could feel so overwhelming, right? Don't think about completely redesigning and getting a new job in a week. Think about one step. What's one thing you could do? Find a mentor. Have a coffee, have an informational thing. One small step. And really figure out what that is. And sometimes, Kwame, if you have that agency to make that one small step, it changes the whole situation. Because sometimes when you know you can leave, you might not feel like. You might feel like you can stay because you know you can go.

This is so powerful. That's the word that comes to me is empowerment. It starts with that empowerment, that belief that you can. That's right. What you've done is you've helped a lot of people to recognize, hey, I have more power than I originally thought.

That's right.

Because first, like you said, your identity became Goldman. Goldman was your identity. And then it creates this dynamic where if you leave, it's almost like you feel like you're leaving a part of yourself. And so it's really important for us to remember who we are, what we stand for, and just really standing in that strength, just as an individual, that's so important. And it's easy for us to lose ourselves. So that was a really great point.

And, you know, we lose ourselves in all sorts of roles. You know, I mean, the parents whose youngest kid moves out of the house feels lost. But if you always know what your mission statement is while you were put on this earth, know what you stand for, what you want to accomplish, well, guess what? You bring that to all your roles. You bring that to your work for money. You bring that to your volunteerism, you bring that to your family. Then if any one of those goes away, you're not lost, because you're still you.

Yes. And. And that is power that comes from within. As cheesy as that sound, the power is within.

But it's true. The power comes from within.

Right. And it doesn't come from other people. And once you recognize that you can EMP yourself and still be good with or without other people or organizations or connections or something like that, then it really helps you to feel more confident to stand up and do what needs to be done.

That's right.

When we think about this through the lens of negotiation, your power comes from the options that you have. The person who needs the deal most loses. And they can create this dynamic where they can make you feel whoever they are in your story, because for you, it was Goldman. For somebody else, it might be a relationship. Somebody else, it might be a business deal. And they do a really good job of making you feel as though you can't leave. You don't have options. I have tons of options. I could replace you, but you can't replace me. And it really has to start with an internal negotiation to help you recognize, hey, let me. Let me shut out the noise for a little bit and let me think for myself. Independently, what do I stand for? What do I want? How do I want to be treated? How am I being treated? What is the discrepancy between the two? And what options do I have if I am not able to make this better, if I can't solve this problem? And I think that's one of the things that, especially for me, I had to learn as a negotiator. I feel really confident in my ability to persuade. And that sometimes can be detrimental because it keeps me in conversations and relationships and situations longer when I should have walked away a long time ago. So I love the fact that you're focusing on independent thought, self empowerment, and then recognizing that you have the options to make a change if they're not willing to make the changes that they need to make.

Yeah. And it's too. You have to mine for your own options. And if you are really feeling stuck, that's why I say get someone outside of the organization, who you trust, who you admire, who knows you, to brainstorm options. And, you know, also, if you find yourself in a toxic work environment, there are things you can do in the work environment. You know, it doesn't mean you have to go and bust down human resources door. You know, I say to my clients, you don't have to make big waves. You can make little motions, little droplets in the water, little motions. And, you know, going back to having some kindness and generosity towards others, give people the benefit of the doubt. Some people might not realize. So if you're feeling icky at work that someone says something, there's power. Just saying, hey, Kwame, this is how what you just said landed. I'm sure that's not how it was intended. You disarm people on the spot. I wish I had had the confidence to make little corrections along the way, because I do think over time, again, things are ignored, then they're normalized, then they're escalated. And I think we can all do things with just little. Little drops of water. No big waves. Little motions, I think, make a big difference and also empowers you as the employee.

Definitely. I think about every time we do the right thing, it's a vote in confidence of the person we want to be. That's really all it takes. If you're feeling scared and you need to be brave, do something brave. But it doesn't need to be something big. It doesn't need to be like a riot.

That's right.

A walkout or something big like that.

It could just be as simple as saying, when somebody says, hey, Jamie, you.

Mind finishing up this report?

Hey, sorry, I'm swamped right now. That's not something I can do. Yeah, setting a boundary, something small. And I think that's the thing that we often struggle with, because the problems that we face can feel so big that we struggle to realize and appreciate the fact that these small wins that we can make, they accumulate.

That's right. That's right. And I think make a difference over time and then again, make you feel like you have that agency in the workplace and are not just being swept up by the actions of others.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, let's dig deeper in, because we've done a really good job of helping people to understand the challenge and understand that internal work that they have to do, giving themselves more options and how they can find a little bit more empowerment. Now, when it comes to the conversations that we're having at work, what do those look like?

You get to decide, Right? The person always gets to decide. The conversations could just be simply basic, just delicate confrontation. A lot of times things snowball because they're just kind of ignored, and it becomes this elephant in the room and again, give people the benefit of the doubt. I feel like sometimes when people feel like they're being victimized at work, it becomes this behemoth thing. They're the villain. I'm the weak one. But as we talked about, who knows what that other person is going through? Maybe they think that is what they need to survive. So you know what? Diffuse the situation by just direct conversation. Simple, pedestrian sentences. This is what I observed. This is how it landed with me. What are your thoughts? And again, low hanging fruit. You know, it's interesting. I heard from one of my readers who said, you know, Jamie, I don't think I contributed directly to a toxic environment, but I don't think I'm looking up enough, and I don't think I'm saying knock it off enough. So to me, it's like, everybody, get curious about what's going on in your workplace. Look out for one another. Get curious. You know, look at how people are acting in conference rooms, noticing who's talking more than others. You know, so even if you're not the one who feels, you know what, I'm okay, I don't have any problems in the workplace. Get curious about the people around you. Do you notice that some people talk more often than others? Ask them a direct question. Ask them to speak up. It's just kind of little actions along the way. Certainly, if there's a big issue going on that Might require a bigger discussion, but I think that's when someone really needs to take a step back, look at their situation again, take it out of house, have someone sanity check for you, and just make a small plan to have simple, basic conversations. I feel like sometimes in the workplace things get to say overblown, but if you were in a store and you were charged wrong for an item, most people would have no problem going to the cashier and saying, there's a discrepancy here. I'm sure that was just a mistake. You didn't mean to charge me double. Could we correct it? Oh, of course. I'm so sorry. No problem. It's like you come with the same generosity of people aren't out to get, you know, just state the facts and address it.

I love the simplicity of this favorite Da Vinci quote is simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. And that's really it. And a lot of times we just overthink these things to the point of inaction.

That's right.

And it's just our fear in disguise holding us back in the form of, like, overthinking too much thought into it. And the simplicity of this is a key element of what will make it successful. You are curious, but with the best of intentions, you acknowledge what you see, you get curious, ask some questions about it, and I'll give an example. Steph Palai, our chief operating officer, she does a great job of this, too, because we work remotely, we're sending messages very quickly via Slack and things like that. I remember last weekend, the kids were sick, and I was trying to take care of the kids, and then she was asking questions. I was like, oh, wait, I don't want to make Steph wait. So I just shot off some really quick responses. So she said, hey, assuming best intentions here, but I'm noticing something different in the way that you're messaging. And it's. It's making me feel a little bit hurt and a little bit confused and slightly disrespected. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I did not mean it that way. And I think that a lot of times the things that are toxic or bullying behaviors, the person who's doing it might not even recognize that is being.

Perceived that way 100%. And it's like, be curious. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Be generous. The way she responded to you. Right. Was so generous. And what happens is when you do that and you have these little course corrections, then things don't get overblown. Either in behaviors or your perception of behaviors.

Yes, exactly. And what I told her, too, I said, I was like, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be a better leader and a better friend. Because really, at the end of the day, when you set boundaries and you let people know what they need to do in order to treat you with respect, because only you can determine whether or not you are respected, that's in your hands. And so you have to help people to know what makes you feel respected and what makes you feel disrespected. And so when it comes to self advocacy, it's really us coaching the people around us on how they should treat us. And so for me, one of the things that I like to do now is I want to encourage people to assert their boundaries and speak their truth when they're talking to me. And whenever they do that, whenever they step up and they have that brave conversation, I want to encourage it more. And so I think one of the best things that leaders can do in these conversations, and just people in general, when somebody does hold you accountable, show appreciation and let them know, hey, I appreciate you doing this. Even if we don't agree, I appreciate that we're actually having this conversation so we can get a better understanding of each other, still helps us to make better decisions going forward, 100%.

And I think the key to that is for leaders to be humble, to have some humility. Because if there's humility there, that, you know what, we're not perfect. We try, we're not perfect. Well, that then creates an environment where people feel safe to speak up. And if you're a business leader, you want people to feel safe to speak up, whether it comes to business issues that affect the bottom line or personnel issues that affect the culture. And that really comes from the top down.

Yeah, yeah, to that point. For it coming from the top down and for it having an impact on culture, we have to recognize that even though, yes, the show is called Negotiate Anything and you can and should negotiate, of course, we also have to recognize that the reality is culture is really powerful. So you going up against an entire culture, it's going to be tough. And I think it's important to acknowledge that and recognize that part of this situation is that we're trying to solve a problem. And negotiation is but one tool that you can use to solve the problem. And sometimes you might negotiate, you might try to persuade, you'll set those boundaries, and because of the toxicity of the individual or the toxicity of the culture, your efforts still are not rewarded. With behavior change from the people around you. And I think it's really important. And again, you touched on this, but I just want to make sure we highlight it that sometimes the best warriors are the ones who know when to use a strategic retreat. I think a lot of times people think of the word quitting as like, I gave up, I wasn't tough enough, or something like that. No, it is just another option that you can utilize to meet your needs. And sometimes the worst negotiation outcome you could have is a deal that should have never been made. Walking away is a legitimate option in these situations.

You know, going back to agency and autonomy, we design our life. We're the writers of our book of life. And, you know, I talk to my clients. I think of careers as like a pie, right? There's the compensation aspect, there's the passion aspect, and there's a flexibility aspect. Right. You know, my pie at Goldman was pretty much the money had some passion. I had no flexibility. What I want people to get really clear on is what they want and then know they can redesign it. Meaning, you know, maybe you're okay working your butt off not having a quote, unquote, life outside of work, but you're making money. That might be a decision you might need to make, because, let's face it, people need money, right? To support their families, to support themselves. But know when that value proposition doesn't work anymore, you can redesign because you're taking your goodies away. And so I really think, for me, I was a big victim of the scarcity mindset at my job. They made you feel like there was no opportunity anywhere else. Right? This was the only game in town where you were going to be successful. And they did a scarcity mindset amongst the employees. If I'm going to win, you're going to lose. We can't all win together. And so. But I'll tell you, the one thing that they had an abundance mindset on was time. Oh, suck it up. Another couple years, we'll make you managing director. And oh, my gosh, did I get it wrong? Because the only thing that there's a scarcity is, is time. We only have so many years on this earth, and guess what? We don't know how much we have. And so to me, I really want to empower my clients to say no. There are always opportunities out there for you. There are plenty. This is a big world. So to your point, you're looking at your pie of your career, talking to your board of directors, and it's not serving you anymore. No, there are other places in town for you to work. And because I was so frivolous with my time at Goldman Sachs, and I don't want to be frivolous with my time anymore, I want to make sure the rest of my days on earth, no matter how many there are, I am living aligned with my personal mission statement and empowering others to do the same.

I love it. This is great. It's so important. So I'm really appreciative that you took the time to come on the podcast and share your message. It's so important for us to hear this, and I think sometimes we can forget just how much power we have and how much autonomy and agency we have when it comes to solving problems, especially within the workplace. So, Jamie, before you go, can you please remind the listeners about the book, the coaching, and how they can get in touch with you?

Yeah. Thanks. The book is called Bully My Story of Money Misogyny at Goldman Sachs. It's available wherever books are sold. And my website is jamiefiorehiggins.com and there's a Contact me there. I love hearing from my readers. I feel so fortunate that I've become a curator of personal stories where people have really touched base. Let me know what's going on in the workplace, and then there's more information if you email me about my coaching as well.

Jamie, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

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