Negotiating In Cross-Cultural Contexts With Aramide Fields

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Aramide, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much for having me, Kwame. Such a pleasure to be here.

Likewise. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Absolutely. So I am an associate general counsel for a Fortune 500 company in the Asia division of that company. And I am based in Tokyo and cover multiple regions in Asia, so Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand and others. And I have living in Japan with my husband and three kids, originally from the US and admitted in California, but through a long winding story, ended up in Japan many years ago and have been practicing there ever since.

This is great. And of course, Aramide, there are probably tons of American black Nigerian lawyers living in Tokyo. I'm saying that correctly.

I mean, a dime a dozen, Kwame. So many. Or maybe I'm the only one. I don't know. One of those. One of those two options. I'm not sure.

Somewhere in between, right? Yeah. So listeners, this is going to be a fun one because what we're going to talk about is culture in negotiation. And obviously Aramide has a very interesting perspective on this because she's been exceptionally successful in her role, even though she is a unicorn. And I think this is a really empowering story about how mindset and skills can really help you in almost any situation. So just set the stage for us here. How did you arrive in Japan and then tell us about that experience.

Yeah, so as many people who expats who are in Japan will tell you, it kind of starts with a. Well, I came for just a little bit and ended up staying a lot longer. So my journey started back when, so before I was where my current role, I was at a law firm, big law, international law firm for 15 years. And I was about a second or third year associate and really just sort of by a fluke, there was a partner who was looking for associates to come to Japan for just a three month stint. And I was asked to do this opportunity and I actually said no at first. It was one of these sort of like fear, oh my goodness, how's that going to work? I don't speak Japanese. And I went home and I told my husband at the time and he said, did you just turn down the opportunity to live and work in Japan? Are you insane? Like you got to go back and say yes. So he's basically my life coach and advisor. So on his wise counsel, I went back to that partner. I said, you know, I've had a change of heart and can I do that? And it was really just to kind of get tied people over the litigation department over until, you know, during this heavy three month period. And so I did that and it was very successful, had a great experience and the firm asked me to then do a two year stint after that. So that was about 2007 was the first three year stint and then I returned 2008 to 9ish. So about two years then. And then I thought Japan, that was great. Back to San Diego where I was practicing and I really thought that I was done. And again my husband said, I think you're going to end up back there again one day. I think it's going to happen. And lo and behold, you know, just kind of through another fluke, I started working on a matter in Japan in about 2014, 15 or so and was invited to come back again for I think it was, it was sort of a, you know, come back for a little bit, maybe two years, maybe it's going to be a bit longer. And that was 2016 when I returned and I've been here ever since.

Did you say you didn't speak Japanese?

Yes, didn't and don't I should say Unless we're counting. I know it's wild. Unless we're counting, like my preschool Japanese or my. I'm able to tell a taxi where to go. I'm able to order some water in a restaurant. But I think you're probably thinking a little bit more business context. No, I do not do that. I cannot do that. So, yeah, that's another kind of thing that makes me, I think, a little bit unique about my experiencing being a lawyer. Being a lawyer in Japan, this is mind blowing. That's what I'm here for, Kwame, you know, keep things interesting.

This is great because I think this.

Is important context because as we start to transition into like the actual skills, I think it's important context to understand how does your day to day operate being a lawyer in Japan, not speaking Japanese.

Yes. Yeah. So. So what it started with, when I was at the law firm, I essentially was sort of. So I was in the litigation group and I was doing what we call inbound litigation. So that is usually representing a non Japanese company. So think of the biggest US Company or European company that has some litigation in Japan. And I would be working with the Japanese lawyers at the firm and sort of almost like a cultural interpreter. So helping, let's say a US Company understand the legal. The differences between US And Japanese legal system. And so a lot of what, you know, is working very closely with the Japanese, because to be clear, I'm not admitted in Japan. I am not a lawyer under Japanese law. I'm only a US Lawyer. But what we found is that it was difficult for US Lawyers who come from, you know, discovery, heavy disputes, you know, lengthy, expensive litigation to Japan, where it is just an entirely different system. And often these big companies who have their global strategy and litigation are trying to apply that in Japan and kind of it just didn't work. So you really had to find a way to meld Japanese system, maybe U.S. structure, strategy. And I was part of the team to help, to help do that. Because what was happening is these US Companies were coming to Japan wanting to litigate their way. And they were like, I don't understand what's happening. You know, like, my Japanese lawyers aren't doing what I want. And I don't, you know, it's like kind of this like black box of what was happening in Japan litigation. And so the service that we were able to offer as the law firm was to break things down, make it again, that kind of melding of systems for really pretty great results.

This is fascinating because what I'm finding really Interesting here is that I think if you don't have this type of experience, you might just say, if I want to expand my business in a different country, I'll just get a lawyer from that country and they'll do legal things in that country. But it seems like they're missing a key element which is you.

For that. Yeah, yeah.

Essentially what it is.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like we, the Japanese lawyer understand the law and then the US business understands the business, but then we have to understand the melding of the cultures in order to be successful. Right?

Yes, yes, that's right. That's right. And so that was, I thought, always like, you know, fascinating work, but still very like litigation oriented. And so now when I'm in, in a naus role that is very generalist and commercial and corporate. And so I have a little bit of the litigation experience, but now it's much broader than that. But a lot of that sort of cultural interpretation, translation of systems I'm doing on a daily basis because I might be operating or doing business with or helping my business colleagues operate in regions that have a little bit of a mix of maybe it's a European company that has an entity in Thailand that is operating and doing business with my company that's a European company that has a Japanese component. I mean, it's just, it's, there's a lot of like cross cultural thoughts and processes that I'm thinking about on a daily basis, even in my non litigation role.

It's fascinating. And when you think about the negotiations that you find yourself in, what do those look like?

Yeah, so I mean, the negotiations that I do, I mean at this point now, it's often contract negotiations. So. And it's not necessarily me face to face with an opposing party, but I might be advising like my business partners in house or in house clients rather on how to negotiate and how to position ourselves. So I know one of your past guests, Neda, the contract redlining expert. You know, a lot of it is me advising our internal team how to position ourselves for what I think would be success on a particular, you know, contract negotiation provision. And so it's, it's, you know, there's at. Sometimes it's not as much of the cultural context piece, but sometimes it is, you know, having to me first explain to a business partner why we need to take the position that we need to and then how do we frame that in a way that will convince our counterparty to accept our position.

So fascinating, because what I'm realizing here is that there are layers to these negotiations because even though you're not at the table, you are negotiating with your internal partner, convincing them of a specific approach and then working with your internal partner to come up with a negotiation strategy that you can then execute at the table.

Absolutely, yes. Yes. It's very critical. And that's having been at a law firm for 15 years and not having this deep direct access to what's happening with businesses who want to do long term business together and collaborate and move forward and ultimately reach a deal. It's been eye opening. I've been in the role for about two years now and have really just learned so much from people like you and others that I follow on LinkedIn and Laura Frederick about contract principles. How do you actually get things done? And there's really so many resources out there that I found now that have helped me and of course the people I work with, you know, my boss and, and others in the legal department of sort of like teaching me these, these aspects of, you know, judgment and persuasiveness and argument and things like that that are, you know, almost feel worlds away from the type of blurring that I was doing before. But I just really, really enjoy and really love.

This is great.

Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you.

Can help the folks on your team.

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I'm interested to hear what for you were some of the biggest surprises working in Japan.

I think one, so one huge one is before I came, you know, I was doing all this before my very first trip to Japan. I did a lot of like, trying to learn the language. I did a lot of like, okay, how do I say thank you and how do I say, you know, all these like, little things that I thought would be important in my communication with people, even realizing I was not going to become fluent. And what I did not do enough of and which I think was probably more important for my everydayness was understanding more about the culture itself in Japan and how it differs from the culture in the US where I grew up, for example. So one thing that surprised me the most after I'd been in Japan probably far too long to really understand this concept before I learned what the word was for it. So Japan is what is considered a high context society. And that essentially means that Japan has been. It's kind of a collectivist sort of thinking about, like the common good. This high context means that everyone is sort of operating generally from the same understanding. So you don't need to be as explicit or clear about everything. There's a lot of inferences, There are a lot of things that are sort of unsaid. And that's in contrast to a low context society like the US where more individualistic. We've got melting pot people from all around the world, and we don't always have the same common upbringing, culture, background, low context. We don't have the same context. And so therefore things are very explicit, direct, you say exactly what you mean, you say it again, you say it again to make sure that the person that you're speaking to understands exactly where you're coming from. On the other side of that Japan, high context, things unsaid, a lot of inferences. There's a saying about reading the air, which essentially sort of read between the lines because maybe everyone is saying one thing, but we kind of mean something different. So for an example, low context Japan, this is something that I learned the hard way, I guess you would say. But it's a very simple example. But let's say you go to a restaurant in Japan and let's say there's, you know, you want to order a burger and you want to make some changes to what's on the burger. It says it comes with tomato ketchup. And you want to say, can you just hold the ketchup? Don't put the ketchup on. A waiter server might tell you it's very difficult. And what they actually mean is no. So in Japan, it's considered a little impolite, a little bit rude to say no directly to preserve harmony. You don't want to be, you don't want to come right out and say no. So instead you sort of give a. Not sure we can do that. And can you imagine in a negotiation context if someone says to you, it's very difficult. What do you think? What do you think, Kwame? You hear that? It's difficult.

Oh, I'm going to get that. That's what I.

Right, right. It's difficult. It doesn't mean no. It means, but I got a chance right I can still, I can still persuade you. Maybe they just need to go talk to the right people. But essentially it's difficult means no. And I know I've. For any Japan specialists out there, I'm sure I've oversimplified this, but I have waited many times for the. It's difficult to change to a yes, and it has never happened. So understanding something like that, that was very surprising to me that, that there are times when in Japan you might hear one thing and it's not that anyone's trying to deceive you or mislead you, but in Japan, if there's an understanding that when I say X, I really mean Y. But you don't know that coming from your, a different culture, a different understanding, a different background, then you're not going to be seeing eye to eye. Right? There's going to be miscommunication, misunderstanding. So that's something that has been. Yeah, definitely something. Once I, once I read about that and learned about that, I thought, why was I, why was I spending time figuring out how to say hello and yes, please and thank you instead of here is how people operate, here is what's happening and here's how communication works in Japan. But that's part of what kind of makes it just such a fascinating experience for me because I learn about different cultures and how different people communicate and how the US Might achieve an objective one way. And in Japan we're going to achieve it an entirely different way, but ultimately we can come to the same, the same outcome.

This is great and I appreciate that example because that, it's a brilliant example. And for people who are listening and they're like, why am I at this point in this podcast when I know I'm never going to do business in Japan? Great question. The reason is it is a great metaphor for any other cross cultural negotiation that you're going to have. And when are we having cross culture negotiations? Anytime you're talking to somebody that is not yourself, you know, because we have big C and little C culture, because we might think about us versus Japan, but we might think about the legal department versus the marketing department within a company. Right? Your family versus my family. I'm from the Midwest, you might be from New York. We communicate slightly differently. And so it really means like something we should stop and ask ourselves is what does that really mean to that person? Because what they said might mean something to us, but the way they said it, it might mean something completely different to them. And I think the ultimate lesson for people who are Doing international negotiations and people who are negotiating with people who are other than themselves is, hey, we should pause and question everything. What does that really mean to this person? I think this is an opportunity for us to really supercharge our empathy because a lot of times we assume that we understand what somebody's saying, but we don't take the time to investigate further to make sure that we're on the same page.

Yeah, absolutely, Completely agree. And I will say that even, you know, once I understood this about Japan and high context society, and, you know, maybe I'm not always going to hear the direct answer to something, I still can't always assume that every Japanese person that I meet is going to be high context and that it's difficult means. No. Every now and then there will be someone who challenges my biases, my assumptions, my preconceived notions about what Japanese people will do in certain situations. And it's maybe a Japanese person born in Japan, but happened to have lived in the US or somewhere outside of Japan for many years and has a little bit more of a westernized style. And if I go in assuming that they're sort of more traditional Japanese culture as opposed to a westernized mindset, then I'm going to misinterpret. And so that's, I think, exactly right, that it's, you know, you can have this information to inform what you believe someone's comments mean, but then you still have to be focused on that specific person. What does it mean to them or what does it mean for their company? A Japanese person operating within a European company versus a Japanese person in a Japanese company can be very different perspective.

Absolutely. And that's an important message because this shows the difference between cultural intelligence and stereotyping. Because stereotype, you just say, this is this kind of person. These kind of people do this. Highly problematic. Whereas instead, where with high levels of cultural intelligence, what you're realizing is that an understanding of the culture provides you with a rebuttable assumption about what this person perhaps might be like. And then you still operate with the reality that this person is an individual and you're going to learn about this individual through the interaction with the cultural context in mind. So you're still flexible enough to adjust on the fly.

Yeah, absolutely. Well said.

Thank you. No, this is great. And one of the things that I really like about your approach here is that you still were authentic to yourself with the way that you transitioned. Because I think a lot of times people have a disempowering mindset when it comes to cross cultural negotiations. They say these are all of the problems that will happen because of the differences in culture. But one of the things that you've been able to do really well is hold onto your strengths and authenticity and still operate at a high level. Talk a little bit more about how you were still able to be yourself and lean into your strengths in this new environment.

Yeah, I think a lot of that thing. And thank you for recognizing that and saying all those kind things about that. It's been a journey and a process. I mean, I've been a lawyer for 17 years and I would say that probably for the majority of it, I was definitely trying to fit myself into a particular box. I was trying to fit myself into what a big law lawyer looks like, sounds like, writes like, talks like, all these things. And you know, I mean, I think I was, you know, I was at the firm for 15 years, so I must have been successful. I left on my own, you know, volition must have been a good thing. But I think that trying to fit that box maybe held me back in some ways because, you know, if you're, if you're kind of consciously always thinking about, okay, how do I, you know, how am I presenting, how am I, am I coming across, like, serious enough and lawyerly enough. I think that then suppresses creativity and expression and all these things and, you know, there's all these folks advocating for, you know, show up as your full self and authenticity and maybe it can get a little bit tiresome. But I can say that for myself that when I started to do that, for example, commenting on your LinkedIn posts, which has now led me to this moment, that's something I wouldn't have done before because I wouldn't have felt comfortable to put myself out there as, you know, who cares what I think? Let me just stick to my box of litigating and doing my work. So I think when I talk about the journey, it's been a combination of things. New environment, new work, new company that I'm working with for me, new for me. And one of the things that I did soon after joining, we had a team project and one of the team building things was doing the cliftonstrengths Finder or Strength. I've forgotten what the name is now, but that assessment and you know, we had a team of maybe 15 to 20 people who went through that. And I remember doing that same strengths finder when I was at my law firm 10 years ago or so. And I remember it was a, I mean, you know, we're in a huge conference room and. But you're at a table of people. And I knew that the results were going to be discussed, so I answered the question the way that I thought a lawyer should answer them. And so what came back was like, kind of like me. They were kind of my strengths. And this time I said, all right, I really want to know what are my strengths? And so I answered authentically as me. The first things that came to mind. And what was so interesting, I was in a room of 2015-20, all other everyone else, Japanese men. And the results that came back, we put them up on a screen and I think it was, you know, they give you like your five strengths. And four out of five of mine fell into sort of like, I forgot what category it is, but it's something about like harmony and connectedness and connecting with other people. And the trainer said, Arami dsan. It's amazing. You're very Japanese. They were all, they kind of strengths that in Japan would be celebrated. Harmony, connectedness, working with other people. And as I saw that, I thought, wow, what, what, what a change in person that I am. That when I was still at my firm, I would have seen that result and think, well, that's weakness. Or I would have been worried that other people would look at that and see weakness. You're a litigator. You're supposed to be xyz, you know, whatever, you know, argumentative and strong and confident, all these things. Not woo, woo, connected and all these things. But what I found. Let's go back to your question. Kind of long winded answer. But I found that it has allowed me to enjoy my work more and I think just be more effective in my work because again, I'm not trying to force or fake or be something that I'm not or fit myself into some box that I don't neatly fit into. So that's the journey.

Oh, that's great. I appreciate you sharing that. And I think a major takeaway for everybody listening to this is that authenticity leads to happiness and effectiveness. That's me.

Absolutely. For me. Absolutely. So, yes, if I could encourage anyone else to sort of, you know, and maybe your thing isn't joy and connectedness and, you know, all these things that work for me, but I think for me that, that whatever your thing is, I encourage you to do your thing for those. For those very reasons.

Now, what changed inside of you that allowed you to lean into that authenticity this time versus feeling like you needed to conform in the past?

Yeah, that's a good Question. You know, it could be that it was during the pandemic, you know, a lot of folks reevalu, you know, who are you? What, what's most important? Maybe just, just not being a little bit tired, I guess of trying to fit into something and realizing that I kind of had a new opportunity with a new company and new people around me to just try it out. You know, just let me just go in as me and see what happens. And fortunately, you know, I'd say that's worked out. I think, you know, in all honesty, I think would be very difficult for me to have made this change where I was before. And of course I had fantastic experiences, fantastic colleagues, so many wonderful things. But I every, you know, every, on occasion I would still find myself, okay, I've got an opposing counsel, I've got an opposing, you know, I've got a client I've got to try to impress in some way. And so I just found myself in these situations again and again where I felt like it was going back into like, all right, time to put on that lawyer box lawyer hat and, and, and do that. And so I think, yeah, I just think a lot of kind of shifts in the world and you know, and personal and professional life that allowed me to try to try this and been very happy that I did.

So this is great. And one of the things that I found is that a lot of times I see people using their identity as a limiting tool. And so what I mean is that it creates almost like a series of self limiting beliefs that turn into self fulfilling prophec that lead to failure. And so you are a Nigerian American, a black woman, you were a minority in the US and then you moved to Japan. I don't know the numbers, but I can assume you're more of a minority there.

Much more, yes.

And there were probably little voices in your head that were saying, you are a black woman, you're a minority, life is going to be tough. How did you overcome those self limiting beliefs and lean into your authentic self and then still be effective?

Wow, that's a great question. I can't say that I have any magical pill for that. A lot of it is probably my support system. So the people around me telling me, you got this, you could do this. Whether it's family. I mentioned my husband, he's my biggest cheerleader, supporter and fan and he would be the one to tell me sometimes have those moments of self doubt of do I belong. By the way, I'm not going to call it imposter syndrome. We can have a whole nother discussion about that. But that's not what it is for me. You know, when I would walk into a room and I'm the only black person, I'm the only woman, I'm the only black woman. And he would tell me, you belong, you belong, you belong in every room that you enter. You've worked hard, you deserve it. And I think having folks like that kind of build up my confidence. Then you start to either just do the actions that, that they think you're capable of and maybe even start to believe it. And I've, you know, so I've definitely had some of those, I think, self limiting thoughts. Gosh, this isn't going to work. Being an American, non Japanese speaking lawyer in Japan. Like how does and really, truth be told, I don't know. You know, I don't have a magic formula, but I know I am living the life and it's been fantastic for me professionally and personally. And so sometimes I think you really just have to kind of get out of your head. You know, maybe other people are going to tell you no, but if other people are telling you you can do this and other people are giving you the opportunities and you step up and you rise to the occasion, don't let your own negative thoughts and self doubt hold you back from what's possible.

Oh, I think that's great. I appreciate that. I think that's a message that everybody needs to hear. Really. That's really important. Let's say hypothetically, if there are people out there who are trying to make a shift, but there's something that's holding them back, or there's a difficult conversation that's coming up and they're starting to get those kind of self limiting beliefs like this person will not agree with me or they won't accept me because of this, what is one piece of advice that you'd give them to get the courage to take that step?

Hmm, one piece of advice? I think so. I would, I would look if you've got one of those supporters in your life, I would have a conversation with that person because I think sometimes there can be, you know, a mirror out there, someone who has maybe a more encouraging view of yourself and your potential than you have. And you know, you can. I think there's also internal work that can be done. I know how I do things like go to, you know, I'm big on podcasts. I might look for a podcast episode, salary negotiations or you know, difficult conversations. Kwame, you've got a full library of Those types of things. But I think, you know, again, as someone who relies on support and community, having a conversation with someone who knows you well and can maybe be a more accurate judge of what your potential is than. Than you have at that moment when you're feeling a little bit maybe down or. Or negative about your potential.

That's great. That is great. Hard pivot. Hard pivot.

All right, I'm ready. Let's go.

Do you like Japanese rap?

Oh, mommy. I can't say that I really know it. I'm not. I mean, is there. Is there anything. Yeah, I can say that is not a genre that I've. I've looked into very much.

Wow, you've been there.

I know I've been there. I know, I know. Maybe I'm too sheltered. Is there something that you introduce me to in a particular artist? Okay.

DJ DJ Ken Watanabe and Yellow Bucks. Listen, this is fire. Like, Whitney and I, last night, we were just jamming out Whitney's, like, who is this? Are they just rapping fast? I can't understand what they're saying. Like, it's Japanese rap. She's like, get out of here. Are you serious? It's amazing.

I'll send you great songs. Okay? Please do. Please do. So you're a fan?

Okay, yeah, Maybe.

Have you learned some Japanese? Have you learned some Japanese by listening to it or. No, it's just kind of. All right, all right. It's probably like, my daily experience of, like, people are talking and, like, I don't know what they're saying. All right.

Yes. No, no, maybe we'll put some. We'll put some links in the description of the episode along with a link to your LinkedIn profile, of course, because your. Your posts are incredible. So, everybody, I suggest following my friend here, Aramideng here. And this is. This is great. Before you go, can you let listeners know the best way to get in touch with you if they want to connect?

Yeah, it would be LinkedIn. The same way I connected with you as an avid fan. And actually, I mean, plug for LinkedIn. That's part of my journey and evolution of just sort of starting to put my thoughts out there and connect with people. And I'm one of those people who was just like, your podcasts are great, and I love everything you're doing, and thank you so much. And now it led to you inviting me to be here today. So you grateful for that and, yeah, LinkedIn. Happy to connect and chat with folks that way.

This is great, Aramidi.

Thank you so much.

Really appreciate it.

Really appreciate it as well. Have a great day.

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