Negotiating with Confidence: Sam Struan's Keys to Larger Salaries

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Sam, thanks for joining us today.

It's good to be here. Thanks for having me, Kwame.

It is my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, absolutely. So my name's Sam Struan. I'm a talent acquisition or recruitment professional. I've been in the industry for about 10 years, working in both executive search agency environment or leading internal talent acquisition teams. And now most of my focus is working with individuals, job seekers in particular, or individuals that are looking to make significant changes to their career in terms of compensation. So my two main focuses are resume writing and being a salary negotiation coach.

I love it. And everybody make sure you follow Sam because this is the first ever installment of people you should follow on LinkedIn. So that's how I found Sam just dropping incredible, incredibly high quality content on LinkedIn. So we're going to link to his profile in the description of this episode and we're going to change it up a little bit with this episode. We're going to start off by talking about two of Sam's most popular posts and just kind of analyzing why it resonated with the audience. And then we're going to talk about counter proposals in salary negotiation, a very narrow element of the compensation negotiation that is often overlooked. So I'm super excited to get into this. So, Sam, how would you set the stage with this first viral post that you made that was, let's say, replicated by many people in the industry afterwards. And when people start doing what you just did, that's a good sign. So can you set the stage with that post?

Yeah, absolutely. I say that in hoping that the main person to come up with it and hopefully I've not plagiarized it, but it seems like nothing's new nowadays. Yeah, the post that you're referring to was a very short post, but I think it resonated with people because the essence of the post was putting the candidate in the driving seat. And I think that's often not the case when it comes to the recruitment and hiring process is we're very much subject to how companies and recruiters and hiring managers want to behave. So the post, in essence, the main thing was when it comes to answering early stage salary questions, which there are multiple options, but this in particular was when you decide to give a range. And it basically said, you know, the key point was never say, I'm looking to make 150 to 170,000 or whatever your number is. Instead, say, say, I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 170,000. And that's when you're asked, you know, what's your salary requirement? And if you decide to give a range. And the reason being is when you say something like, hey, I'm looking to make 150 to 170,000, that's a very aspirational statement. I want, I hope I'm looking. And it can be interpreted as, I'm hoping to make 150, but I'm currently earning less. Whereas when you say something like, I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 170,000, this is situational saying I'm currently interviewing and also tells the interviewer that the market is saying that you're worth 150 to 170, or again, whatever your number is, but also that you're in demand from other companies and that it's human nature to want what others want. But also by putting in early in the conversation that you are having multiple discussions, this will actually help you when it comes to negotiating your offer and is a key component in the counteroffer process.

This is a Gem. And we're at almost a thousand episodes of the podcast. This is something. I'm into this, right? I've never heard this one before. It's so powerful. It is really powerful. And so I want you to dig deeper into the psychology of this. What is the impact that it has on the person who's saying it, but also the person who is hearing it?

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll actually share. No one really knows this, but this actually came from. This was a throwaway post that came from a conversation with a friend. A friend of mine was really uncomfortable talking salary numbers and was in the middle of a job search. And I very casually asked him, I said, when you were speaking with this company, and they said, what's your salary requirement? What did you say? And he said, oh, I said, I'm looking to make A to X to Y. And my immediate thought was, oh, like, dude, that sounds like aspirational. It sounds like, I know you're earning less and it sounds like you're earning less. And I coached him and I said, look, I need you to cut that out your vocabulary. You're not looking for anything. I said, you're currently interviewing for positions X to. Yeah, so he used that then moving forward. And I thought, I'll just throw that up on LinkedIn again. Throwaway post, thinking it wouldn't get too much interest. But it obviously struck a chord with individuals. Now, I think you mentioned the psychology or how it changes things for the individual is many people have told me they feel more confident saying that statement when asked that question. It gives them confidence to answer the question. It gives them clarity. But also, I think when it comes to salary and answering questions, a lot of it is communication is obviously what you say is how you say it, how someone sees what they're actually looking at. So I think there's all those unspoken forms of communication that can come through. When you have a statement like that.

Behind you, bingo, you're spot on. And the thing is, it sounds stronger, it sounds more confident. And we have to remember, just at the end of the day, we are social primates and we are designed to look for hierarchy. And we are constantly evaluating situations and individuals for strength versus weakness, status, prestige, those type of things. And it sounds shallow, and it is. And at the same time, it is just a reality of our psychology. So we have to be mindful of not just what we say, but how we say it. The presentation is part of the persuasive process. And if we miss out on these little nuances, then the person isn't going to have that same level of regard for you. And as a result, they might say, that sounds cute. I hope you eventually get to that number. But I know you seem like the kind of person who would accept less. And a lot of times just because of the way that we approach the negotiation, we can inadvertently invite more aggressive negotiation tactics from the other person because they feel they can get away with it.

What you said, oh, that's cute. I hope you get that. That might be the reaction of someone, you know, that may be someone's internal reaction if you say, oh, well, I'm looking to make 150 to 170 versus yeah, sure. I'm actually currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 70 total, different delivery and anything. The part of the reason that I write so much on LinkedIn is I want to really empower as many people as possible to feel confident in the job search. I also feel like organizations, corporations, there's always been this long standing imbalance of power where candidates are really at the mercy of what a company wants to offer, how someone wants to behave, and anything that I can do to kind of balance that or make people feel a little bit more empowered or in control of their search, take my stuff, you know, go earn the most that you can make a difference to your family, make a difference your earning trajectory, your income. Like, I'm all for that.

Absolutely. And this gives us an opportunity to revisit one of the things you said at the beginning. Because you said a response like this puts the candidate in the driver's seat. And then just now you said a lot of times, because of the imbalance, we're at the mercy of these corporations. And this is one of those little things that allows us to rebalance that. So I want to explore that term, that phrase put the candidate in the driver's seat. I think this is so powerful and I don't want people to overlook this too.

Yeah, absolutely. I think throughout the many stages of the interview process or the hiring process or job seeking process, from initially writing your resume, applying for a job, waiting on interviews, multiple interviews, counteroffers, like I mentioned, there's a real imbalance there at times, But I do think that each step there are things that job seekers and candidates can do to really control the narrative and control the outcome of their search. And this is just an example example of a very small tweak that can have significant differences. And I find that throughout the search process, it does sometimes come down to just small tweaks. How you say Something how you reword something on your Resume or your LinkedIn profile or later on when we talk about counter offers, at the end of the day, we're just asking for more money. Like, that's what it can be brought down to, how you do it. The nuances and the little tweaks can make a significant difference. And anything that you can do to kind of share those, like minor tweaks or little differences that make that will kind of move the needle for someone or give an element of like empowerment or confidence to someone, I think that's really important.

Absolutely. And a lot of it comes down to preparation too. So we shouldn't be surprised when these types of questions come up. And the more prepared we are, the more confident we'll sound in our response. And I think that gives us an opportunity to revisit that other post. The second post that I wanted to highlight where the person asks the question, what are your salary expectations? So let's break down that question. First of all, let's just talk about the game behind the game that the person asking the question is playing.

Definitely. Usually when someone asks if the company hasn't posted the job salary range in the job advert, usually when someone asks, what are your salary expectations? There's a few reasons. Number one is they want to know how well do you know your professional worth? They just want to know how well if a new graduate is asking for 200,000, there's maybe a misalignment there where they're not asking for a realistic salary based on their experience. How well do you know you're worth? Kind of roughly, are you at appropriate professional level? And obviously they want to know if they can afford you. A recruiter is unlikely going to move forward with a candidate who is asking for 60,000 more than what they've been given as a budget. But if it's within 5 to 10,000, there might be wiggle room. Unfortunately, this conversation, I would say, is the predominant thing that happens when it comes to interviews is candidates don't have salary information at the time of applying. And then, you know, a hiring manager or recruiter will ask, what are your salary expectations? So I would say that's the most common scenario when it comes to asking for money. There's a lot of advice on how you should respond to this, ranging from give a range, give a number, deflect, ask them what their budget is. And a lot of people will say this is the only route you should take. But my argument would be you actually have multiple options when you're asked, what are your salary expectations? And it could be any one of those aforementioned paths, but it also all depends on your professional situation and where you currently are.

Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. This is great. I'm sitting here taking all of these notes. I love it. And now this is both empowering and then for some it might also be overwhelming recognizing that there are even more options than we originally thought when it comes to this really crucial question. So as people are determining how to respond to this, given their specific situation, what are some of the things that people should keep in mind as they're going through this analysis and their preparation?

Sure thing. What I can do is maybe share the paths that I would potentially take depending on the situation that I'm in. So you're right. What are your salary expectations? There are multiple options and it can be overwhelming. Decide which path should I take and which is appropriate. But sharing maybe on some personal experiences from myself and working with clients. Here's just a few examples that might be useful to anyone listening. So I mentioned there's a few options and that was give a range, give a number, or deflecting and potentially asking for the company's budget. And you can essentially do all three. But my own approach would depend kind of where I am in terms of leverage and the situation that I'm in. So quick example is I would give a range if I knew what the position paid and I was trying to maximize my salary. So let's say the job advert said the range is 130,000 to 150,000. Then in that scenario, if I was asked what are your salary expectations? I would say something like I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 145,000 to 165,000. I would basically want my bottom number to come in just below their top number and then my top number would exceed their budget and that would and signal to them that they're going to have to offer at the top end of their budget in order to meet my salary requirements. So you're still falling within their budget, but you're not doing the gap that they can offer you to ensure that you get the top end of the budget. I would do that. Typically I say I would take that route because I feel confident negotiating. I feel confident that even if I didn't meet all their requirements, I would be able to address those through a thorough interview preparation. And I would take that bet on myself. You might not be able to do that if you don't meet all the requirements and you feel like you might be up against other candidates that have a lot more experience or maybe you're not fully confident in or a bit more junior in your career, in which case you can modify that range to still fall with their range. But typically most people that I work with are like, I want to maximize my earning capacity. I want to be able to do what I can. So that is an example of when I would give a range is if I knew what the position paid or I knew I'm not earning less than 130 to 150. Like 130 is my absolute minimum. So I'm going to go above. So that is one option.

This is great. I love that one because it gives you an opportunity to be flexible, it gives you a little bit of wiggle room, but it sends a strong signal to the other side of what it is that you are willing to accept. So don't try that lower range type of stuff with me in this situation. But it requires you to know the numbers and do your research. You can negotiate more confidently and more assertively when you have a more realistic, realistic expectation of what those numbers are. So sometimes when you're applying for a job, you can see it, you can see the pay band. It's very clear. What do you think people could do to try to get that information in their research process so they could make this more assertive type of initial offer?

Absolutely. And you touched upon the key thing, which is research. Typically if I was to give a range, I've definitely conducted market research on what similar roles might pay at similar sized organizations. If we're talking in the US market, given that quite a few states have salary transparent and say regulations where employers have to post a range, it's really helpful. If you're in a state where there is no requirement, then you could look at jobs in other states to find out, okay, well this is roughly what they're paying. That's real market data. Because a software engineer in X states the range is this. So you can use that as a data point. Obviously, the average cost of a home varies per state, but it's still a valid data point is within the country it's same currency, similar organizations. I guess the key components of take of giving a range is what if you gave a range of 130 to 150, but their budget was 160 to 180. So they might offer you 160, but you've actually 150. Sorry, but you've actually left 30,000 on the table because they were their budget. Now that's obviously a risk. It's an even higher risk if you don't know how to negotiate. And usually you can determine if you think you've left money on the table or if their budget is higher when you go through multiple interview rounds because you've truly understood, understand the size of the scope and you get more information that you don't have early on in the process. So in that scenario, which I've been in, where I've given a range and then later on, they definitely have more budget. And also the role is much larger in scope than I originally thought. You can negotiate more. You just need to discuss what's changed and we can talk about that later on. When it comes to a counteroffer as well, is how to ask for more money when you've already given a range.

Oh, that's great. That is great. And now I need to establish a little bit of restraint because I really want to jump to that now. But there's one other element I wanted to talk about the times where it might be more strategically sound to either deflect or ask for their budget.

Absolutely. Yeah. So that was the other great option. One of the other options that someone can take is to deflect and ask what the company's budget is. But if you take this route, you have to do it quite sensitively or delicately or strategically so. And I would typically say that people who can ask for a number more easily are ones that are happily employed, or perhaps the organization has approached them, has headhunted or directly approached them. Or perhaps you know that there's just absolutely no way that you're going to go below a number. Yeah, sure. Kwame, you mentioned about deflecting and asking what the company's budget is. And I would perhaps take that route if I knew that I was in high demand or perhaps I knew that I fit what they were looking for. And I would definitely deflect, collect and ask If I was earlier on in this stage or given very few details about the role, and perhaps I haven't had time to do market research or I've not found the market research that I'm looking for. So in this situation where someone says, what are your salary requirements or expectations? And I don't want to give an answer, I want to find out what their budget is, I'd say something like, thank you for asking. I would be happy to discuss compensation after I've learned a little bit more about the position and conduct some additional market research. Alternatively, can you share what has been preliminary budgeted for the role? So that's just the polite way to deflect. If I was unemployed, I didn't want to give a range, then I would tweak my messaging. Because when you're unemployed and when you get asked about salary, your biggest fear is either coming in too low or coming in too high, pricing yourself out of the conversation or leaving significant amount of money on the table. So in that situation, I would deflect and ask, but I would say something like, thanks for asking. I would be open to arrange. That reflects the market rate for positions like this. From my initial research, I've noticed this range can be anywhere from 90,000 to 120,000. How does this align with what the company has budgeted for the role? Now, the key thing about an answer like this, Kwame, is you're saying that you're open to a range that reflects market research. So you're our market rate. You're saying, I still want to be paid fairly. And then you're not saying my range is 90 to 120. You're saying, from the research I've conducted, I've noticed it can range from X to Y. So you yourself are not committing to a range. You're saying, the range I've noticed is over here. How does yours compare to that? So I think that is better than kind of saying I'm open to anything. And my range is 90 to 120, which is quite a wide range that can signal to someone that you'll go as low as 90, but you're really hoping for 120.

It makes a lot of sense. And I love the fact that we are tweaking the messaging for the circumstance. So there are going to be some times where you have a little bit more leverage and security. So if I'm happily employed and I'm not looking for something and you're trying to court me, you need to give me more information in order for me to feel interested in this because the status quo works for me, but there's something in you that makes you want me, so give me the information first. Right. And of course, you're saying it in a more diplomatic way than that, but that's essentially the ethos behind it. But then if we're unemployed, recognizing that our position isn't as strong because our alternative isn't as strong, so we can utilize the same approach, but in a more deferential type of way. So you're not saying, hey, this isn't me asking for this. I've just seen other people get. So where are you on that? And I think that would be more well received by the party on the other side. So I love the fact that we are still utilizing the same fundamental negotiation principles and strategies, but just acknowledging that given the circumstances and given your position and the power dynamics at play, it will flex as necessary for the circumstances.

Definitely. I think that's what's missed out in a lot of advice when it comes to answering that question is the routes that you take really does depend on your leverage and exactly what you said, your alternative situation.

Yeah. Oh, this is good. And now with the time we have left, I want to make sure that we can talk about negotiation counter proposals, because, again, this is a critical part of the compensation negotiation process, but often overlooked. So, first of all, let's start off by just talking about what it is that we're talking about with negotiation counter proposals and why this element is so important.

Sure thing, Kwame. So what we've done is we've spent a lot of time talking about early stage salary questions and how to navigate those. And the reason I wanted to bring that up is because that's really when salary negotiation begins is. Is early on in the process. As soon as you're asked, what are your salary expectations, you need to set the stage for you to allow yourself to negotiate down the line. So that's why it's really important to start focusing on those questions. But where we are and what the topic is today or what we're moving on to is the counteroffer or the counteroffer process, where a company has provided you with a job offer, either verbally in writing, and you want to negotiate that offer, and that is what we're going to be discussing is how to put together a strategic counteroffer to hopefully either maximize your earnings or give you the best kind of working relationship that you're looking for.

I love it. And let's start off by having a little bit of fun. Sam And I know what you're thinking, but, Kwame, I've been having so much fun.

Exactly. I have been having so much fun.

Let's start off by talking about some of the biggest mistakes people make at this point before we start talking about the best practices.

Sure thing. I think the biggest mistakes that I see, this is usually when someone has tried to negotiate an offer and it's not gone well. And then they come to me and say, like, I didn't get what I wanted. What did I do from here? Not a great situation for me. It's kind of like when someone builds something in your home and someone does a really bad job. And like, coming in. Builders fix. They hate fixing other people's mistakes. But usually the biggest mistakes that I see are individuals not having a structure of a proper structure, their counteroffer, whether it's in writing or verbally or bringing in personal feelings or circumstances. Personal feeling. Like, I feel after 10 years of XYZ, I am worth this, or I am looking to save up for a down payment and buy a home. I feel I am. You know, can we. Can I have more? These are personal feelings or situations which quite frankly, are not the organization's problem. It's not the company's problem. It's not the company's responsibility for to help you buy a house. So those are some of the biggest mistakes, is remove anything personal. Any feelings or situations or partners or spouses, husbands and wives. Their personal opinions don't bring any of that to the table. A counteroffer and negotiation should always be about the value that you bring to the organization from your skill sets and your experience.

This is so strong because a lot of times we have to recognize that there's a difference between a strategic thought and emotional thought. And the emotional thoughts are often going to be louder in our head because sometimes people are in this position where they're in a negotiating salary, especially when they haven't done it before, where they're at their wits end. They're like, you know what? I deserve this. I haven't been paid the right way. Jerry over in accounting is making more than me. Are you kidding me? And now my wife is telling me I should be making at least as much as Jerry. So we bring all of that baggage in, and then we make that offer to the other side, focused on those feelings. And the person is like, you know what? That sounds like a you problem. Because that doesn't help us make any money, which is the core function of this business. And so it takes a lot of emotional Restraint. Withhold something that is really, really key to what is bringing you to the negotiation table to make sure that we are persuading from their perspective, what is it that would actually be meaningful for them in this conversation. And a lot of the things that are most central to us coming to the negotiation table don't matter as much to the other side. And so we have to temper that enthusiasm with a little bit of restraint and think a little bit more strategically and speak a little bit more strategically as well.

Definitely. I think I always have to remind people that the negotiation isn't between you and the person, it's between you and the company. Think about what the company as a separate entity wants. So that's one of the key things. And what I can discuss as well, so that your audience and anyone listening has an actual structure to go away with is a five step counteroffer structure which has helped one of my clients negotiate an extra $50,000 in salary. That's actually my record as helping someone get an extra 50k on top of an offer. Really proud of that. But the recommendation that I have, and the final one, the final step, step in this five step counteroffer structure that I'm about to share, I'd say the final step is what 99% of people fail to do. So the recommendation, if someone gets an offer that they want to negotiate and they want to respond via counteroffer, these are the five steps that I recommend. The first is to confirm interest in gratitude. You want to show that you're still very interested in this role. And gratitude can counter kind of perceptions of greed. You're asking for more money, more vacation, more bonus. You don't want to come across as greedy. So gratitude is a great counter to that. So that's step one is confirm interest and gratitude. And then what you want to do is recall some of the company's pain points. You want to reframe their pain points as goals to achieve. And you will know this from the interview process. So an example is if I'm interviewing and the company says, we're struggling to get candidates and we need to grow 30% over this year, we can't find enough staff to fulfill our service, then you want to reframe those pain points as goals that you're going to achieve by saying something like, throughout the interview process, I was really interested in learning that the company is looking to grow and source more skilled candidates for this line of business. So you want to reframe those pain points. Your third step is reiterating your experience fixing those pain points or showing you as the solution by reiterating some of your key experiences that help alleviate those company problems. Then obviously you want to make the ask whether it's salary, bonus, vacation. Quick tip is if you want to negotiate three points, negotiate all three points at once. Don't negotiate one, get a yes, then bring up another point point, get a yes, bring up another point. That will result in negotiation fatigue on both parts. So if you have multiple asks, ask for one. So steps one to four, just as a quick summary before I give you step five is number one was confirmed interesting gratitude. Number two was reframe their pain points as goals that you are excited about meeting. Three was reiterating your experience fixing those pain points. Number four was making the ask for what you want. And then number five, which I would say is one of the most key things, is closing the employer. A lot of people will make the ask and say would you consider an increase to 180,000? Thanks. I look for your response, but you need to close the employer. And closing involves you've made an ask for something more salary, more vacation, more bonus. You have to offer something in return, something to sweeten the deal or to incentivize them to really offer what you want. And one of the things that candidates can offer for is assurance. An example of this is once you've gone through steps one to four and said the company consider 180,000, you know, an extra week of vacation. Here's my market research that reflects this. I would say if company consider this, I would feel more comfortable withdrawing from other interview processes and also prepare to provide notice at my current company. So what you're saying is if you can come close to this number, consider this number, whatever this package is, what I'm going to give you in return is I'm going to pull out of other interviews. I'm also going to start to give notice at my current company. So you're putting the offeror in your shoes of like, oh okay, like this person's serious, they're going to give notice. If you're unemployed, then you can say I would feel more comfortable formally withdrawing from other interview processes. Now, if anyone's been listening from the start of this podcast, one of the earliest things that I mentioned was always saying I am currently interviewing for positions that pay X to Y. And the reason that statement is is doubly powerful is because now in the negotiation that is your bargaining chip that you are saying I will formally withdraw from other interview processes which you referenced at the start of the interview process. So that is a powerful closer.

Wow, this is some high level stuff, man. And you even brought in a little bit of Inception, referencing one of my favorite movies there incepted them at the beginning by confidently stating your range and the fact that you're exploring other offers. Oh man, this is a masterclass. I really appreciate it this. And again, I just really want to make sure the listeners really feel on a visceral level how powerful this is because $50,000 that you helped this person earn, it was salary that they could have claimed and if they didn't, the company would have just given them a lower offer and they would have been performing at that level. But there's money on the table that we deserve, that we should go for, so you should ask for it. And then when you think about compound interest, it's $50,000 increased this year, but that's a hundred thousand dollars next year and then on into perpetuity. And then when you consider that every ceiling is a new floor, which means that you're going to negotiate from that level onward, we're talking about over the course of somebody's life. This is millions of dollars, right? Especially when you consider investment opportunities and things like that. So I just want to reiterate that for the listeners out there who are negotiating the salary now, you have a framework. No more excuses. It's time to get moving. And then of course, if you need more inspiration, follow Sam on LinkedIn because he's constantly dropping these gems. So, Sam, I want to give you the floor to say any parting words and let listeners know how they can connect.

Yeah. Huge thank you, Kwame, for inviting me on this. I really appreciate it and hope those points that have been brought up in the podcast really help any listeners. And the reason I'm so passionate about this area is because when I learned to properly negotiate an offer and got what I felt I deserved, but also it was a significant increase and that led to a lot of positive lifestyle changes or the it wasn't about buying fancy things. And two main things that I invested in, number one was I was able to like upgrade my mom's kitchen, which brought me so much joy to be able to like express gratitude and pay someone back or help someone. And personal note, was able to invest in counseling. Those are the things that I think earning more or being able to tap into additional resources can really elevate someone's life. So it's not necessarily about money buying extra more happiness, but money enabling us opportunities to find more happiness. So thank you again for having me on your podcast. I appreciate it.

Hey, my pleasure. Thanks again for joining us. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning. Keep. Keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.