Negotiating with Humility: Insights from Negotiation Expert Ryan Edmiston

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Ryan, welcome to the show.

Hey, Kwame. Wonderful. So good to be here. So I feel like it's kind of like talk radio, right, where people always call in and, you know, hey, Kwame, longtime listener, first time caller, first time being on the pod. So very excited.

Yeah, dude, this is great. And I've been waiting for this for a long time. So how about you get started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Likewise. Yeah. So let's see as far as what I'm up to, man, wearing a lot of hats, doing a lot of different things these days, but that's what keeps life interesting. Right? So it's my, if you pull up the resume, you know, my day job is being an associate general counsel here on consulting. So I'm working in the investment banking practice group. So I get to, again, wear multiple hats. You know, a little bit of an attorney, a little bit of a banker, and, you know, able to kind of put both those, you know, disciplines to good use. And then in my free time, I'm also president of Ohio State's New York City Alumni Club, which is one of my. That's kind of my moonlighting gig, so to speak. So I know we wanted to talk a little bit about that at some point during our chat today. And you know, the impact that volunteerism has on making us better negotiators. So I think that's another point that's really important to me.

I love this. I love this. And listeners, you can tell clearly with Ryan's background why he is here, because he is an exceptional negotiator and has a lot of great legal and business experience. But we need to go back. We need to go back to the origins of Ryan when it comes to you as a negotiator. Tell me your origin story.

Kwame, you're in. My origin story is very comparable there that both, you know, you can tell for anyone watching us today on the video feed, I've got my scarlet and gray jacket on here. Kwame has a nice gray jacket with the red pocket square. We're both Buckeyes. Oh, my friend. IO There you go. So double Buckeyes. Actually, I should add that both did our undergrad and law school at Ohio State. So, you know, the. The roots run deep there, but. Right. So Kwame and I got started, you know, finding negotiation essentially the same way that for me, it. Mortz, during your 2 and 3L year that you have the opportunity to participate in the negotiation competition that the school hosts. So I was not taking the negotiation course. Pat really, you know, even come across my radar or something that I was thinking of. And one of my good friends who was taking the course said, you know, oh, hey, they. They forced us to do the. The competition. I need a partner. You want to do this with me? Ah, sure. Why not? So I jumped in up. We started competing, and inexplicably, to this day, I still do not know how, but somehow managed to back our way into winning the competition. So we wound up. We got very fortunate. The gentleman who the competition is named after, Jim Lawrence, one of the final round judges, became a very close friend and mentor. I know. Kwame, you've taught co. Taught a course with Jim as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this is great. And we had the opportunity to moot. Right.

That's right. That's where you and I. That's where you and I first met, because I believe you were, I think, two years ahead of me in terms of graduating. So we didn't really have much overlap in law school. But by the time that I was starting out with the. The negotiation competition, you were already out and practicing and came back and were very kind to to donate your time. So again, right back there, that volunteerism point to come back and help us out. So, yeah, gosh, we're going on close to a decade at this point, which is both impressive and also sort of hard to imagine.

Yeah, terrifying is the word, Ryan.

I was trying to massage it a little there, but it happens quickly.

And listeners, to talk about the kind of full circle moment here because we both were taught by Jim Lawrence at OSU how to negotiate, and he served as a mentor for both of us. And then I met Ryan by coming back and helping out with the negotiation team. And Ryan and his teammate were incredible. So I was like, the future at Ohio State is bright. We're in good hands. I like that. And now next year, we're going to be co teaching the same negotiation course at the law school. It's wild. So it's cool to see just the connection.

Yes, indeed. That's the beauty of that Ohio State network and just maintaining relationships, finding good people. And when you do find those good people, man, you just grab on and, you know, see what the, the future holds there. So, no, Jim's wonderful as well. I've had a lot of fun too, the last few years, going back and helping him judge the. The final round. And Kwame, when you talk about the future being bright again, very kind of you to say there about C.J. and I, but my gosh, I go back and watch the other students do this now, and it is just so impressive. It seems like every year it gets better and better.

I love it. Yeah, I agree. So now let's get to the episode because, listeners, I talk to Ryan all the time, and he has a lot to offer us when it comes to these negotiation skills and practical negotiation skills. And in our preparation or when we were talking through this, I was really excited to see that one of the first things that you wanted to talk about was the case for humility in difficult conversations. So let's go ahead and start there.

Absolutely. So, you know, I think that, you know, so many times as we think about negotiation, you can, you know, pick. You could make a list of the top 10, the top 25 attributes that are good for a negotiator. But in my experience, the one that I just keep coming back to and that time and time again has served me well, is this idea of humility in terms of being a negotiator. So I think so many times, especially as attorneys, and I mentioned earlier, I work in investment banking. So if any of you are out there watching Billions or suits or Succession, that humility can sometimes be in short supply in this industry. That, you know, there is a lot of ego, you know, rampant. There's a lot of good people, but just, you know, there's always a little inherent element of ego there as well. I think part of that, though, stems from this idea that you have a lot of type A personalities and problem solvers. And so I look at as well, you know, gosh, I'll go back all, you know, my mother still loves to tell this story and almost four years later, but when I was a little kid that if someone asked me a question that I didn't know, my default response would be pause. And then will you say it? Then I'll say it. That I just, I never wanted to admit that I didn't know something. I never wanted to seem like I didn't have all the answers. And I think as I've gotten older, that trade has dropped away. Hopefully. I've realized that there's actually value in not always having the answers or going into a negotiation. There's value in researching and being prepared. But when it comes to walking in, if you go in and say, well, I've spent 50 hours researching this and here are my suggestions and here are my recommendations, here's exactly what I think we should do. You're not taking time to ask questions the other side. You're not taking time to gather facts. You're not taking time to learn what their concerns are, what suggestions they might have. If you just always barrel in with the, you know, with all the answers, I think that's, you know, not an effective tactic in most negotiations. So, you know, I kind of come back to this point on ego as well. And so one of my absolute favorite quotes that Kwame and I have talked about this before, it's actually, it's from a. An old, long dead German philosopher, author, poet, amateur scientist. He was basically Ben Franklin of Germany in many ways, that, you know, a true Renaissance man. His name, Wolfgang Johann von Goeth. And so actually, if Von Goeth sounds familiar as well, that, you know, the German cultural institutes around the world are named after Goth. So that's where he pops up as well. So what Goth said that I really like is this idea that misunderstanding in lethargy are perhaps the cause of more complications in the affairs of the world than deceit or malice. At any rate, the latter two are certainly more rare. And so taking a second to unpack that, you stop and think, what's he really getting at here? And it's this idea that, yeah, There are people out there who, you know, are going to try and take advantage of a situation or, you know, where we're at. But for the most part, the things that happen to us aren't. They're not personal. No one. But it's less rare or, I'm sorry, it's less frequent that someone comes in and wants to take advantage. The better course there is to think, you know, hey, this is nothing personal. Maybe their kid kept them up, you know, last night because they were sick. Maybe their boss has unreasonable expectations on them. That when we encounter some of the resistance there, I think it's better to say, this isn't about me, which is, again, setting aside ego, and this is about some challenge that they're facing. And so when we do that, I think it really makes a difference. It also goes back to this idea, too, that we lived in such a polarized culture where, you know, it's always this idea of, you know, us versus them and that everyone's, you know, out to get you. It's just not the case. I've found that, you know, time and time again throughout my work that you. When you give people the benefit, bit of the doubt, it's really good. And actually, Kwame, this reminds me calling back to another episode that you did recently. One of my absolute favorites was when you had Melissa fordinato on from the FBI. So I was thinking about Melissa talking about, you know, giving the benefit of the doubt in cases where she had, you know, she was engaged in a hostage negotiation, that she was there with the FBI, that, you know, the SWAT team was, you know, standing beside her door, that typically when Melissa shows up on your door, she's not there to have, you know, tea and biscuits, that something has gone considerably wrong at this juncture. So if Melissa is able to give, you know, people on the FBI's radar the benefit of the doubt and to treat them humanely and to realize that, you know, this isn't about Melissa or Melissa's ego or the ego of the FBI, that if she can do that, why can't we all do that? Right?

Absolutely. This is such a good breakdown. First of all, Melissa's episode was awesome. If you haven't listened to that, check that one out. And when you have folks from the FBI on, you can't top their stories. Their stories.

Right. That wedding story, I already know. There's nothing you and I are going to discuss today that's cooler than that. But, yeah, tip of the captain, Melissa for that one for sure.

Hello, my friends. Before we get Back to today's episode. I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. I love this approach to humility too, because I think a lot of times when we think about the word humility, it's one of those terms that's used so frequently that it has lost meaning, especially when it comes to the specific circumstances that we find ourselves in, which when it comes to this podcast, we're talking about difficult conversations. And you're right. I think this is giving us a really interesting opportunity to analyze some of the most consequential conversations that are happening on this planet in different ways because we gave the example of Melissa being very humble and giving the benefit of the doubt. Let's talk about you. You are in New York City like the financial capital of the world as a associate general counsel at an investment bank, right? So this is significant. You're doing really high level transactions and yes, I love Billions. I'm obsessed with that show and shows like it and there is not much humility. And I think it's really so empowering and encouraging to see that you have established yourself in this really high paced, sometimes aggressive type of work environment and still you're able to comport yourself with humility and you see that as a strategic asset. And so I want to go deeper into how you're able to still carry this virtue of humility while at the same time standing your ground and not getting steamrolled by somebody who might be very aggressive and or egotistical.

Such a good question. Such a good setup there. So the one that I think back to a lot was actually a transaction that occurred at my prior firm. So it was really fun. We were doing a lot of emerging markets work and it was a sell side opportunity that, that we were working down Peru. And so this company, you know, they'd been family owned for multiple generations. They were at a point where, you know, the children, you know, come to the States, weren't, you know, going to be around to operate the business. And so they were looking for their Exit strategy. They were looking to sell and you know, get out. But you know, they were also, this company was just ingrained at the center of this community. They did not want to sell to anyone. They didn't want to necessarily take the highest value payday that they could. They, their concerns were, you know, walking through. They were concerned. They were very focused on environmental sustainability. They were very focused on protecting their workers. They were very focused on the lake legacy of the family and the company and how they fit into the community. And so in that case, with a sell side transaction, you're going to have multiple companies coming in bid. And we had one that they offered a slightly higher dollar value, but they weren't receptive, they weren't listening to these concerns. And we had another partner, the price was a little bit lower for the transaction, but they were much more receptive. They asked questions, they just seemed like they were going to be a better partner for this company. And so ultimately that's the one that ended up winning out. And so I think that shows that this idea that it's just, it's listening, it's having good listening skills, it's being able to interest, spot and pick up on the cues that you're getting there. And so that's one that always pops out in my mind.

I love that. Because this is again, we're not selling these businesses for pennies. We're talking about millions of dollars in finance that's going back and forth, right? It's substantial amounts of money. But we're seeing here that sometimes the person might have values that are greater than the bottom line. And this is a great example. But you won't know that unless you actually to listen and not just hear, but listen. Because we might biologically go through the process of the vibrations from the air going through and hitting our like tympanic membrane. We heard it, but did we actually listen and process and empathize in a meaningful way? Because then that shows respect to the other side. It shows humility because it shows that you're not jumping to inappropriate conclusions or assumptions. And then it also gives you an opportunity to make appropriate adjustments in order to get the deal done. And we're seeing that the other side, we don't know their circumstances, but hypothetically, let's say they could have made some adjustments but they chose not to simply because they were not listening to what the other side was saying. So that's a really great example of how truly listening, empathizing and being curious and not just leading with what you want or what you believe or how you see things can provide you with opportunities to create really unique deals.

Correct, Mr. Kwame? I love the term you use there as well. Just the other words, I think it goes kind of hand in hand. It was empathy that when we start to talk about letting go of your, your ego as a negotiator, not making everything about you and asking questions, focusing on the other side, listening versus simply hearing. And at that point, I think that it makes it so much easier to empathize. And one thing that I found that's been super helpful in my career as well is just having an interdisciplinary background. So for me, my undergrad was finance, international business and political science. I spent some time running around D.C. doing policy and lobbying work. Went over to Scotland to pick up my master's in Edinburgh. I did environmental science and sustainability and then came back and went to law school. And so all these different areas I've worked over the years and with each one. And then my first job out, I was working in a firm that does emerging markets. Now I'm doing healthcare. So it's kind of all these different avenues that it's that old saying about, you know, just enough to be dangerous about a subject, that. But the thing is. And it comes back to humility, you know. So for me, a lot of times I'll be in a meeting room with someone and I know enough to be conversant. I know enough that I can talk and kind of build a rapport that I like to read, study, know a lot about, know a little bit about a lot of different things. I think that goes back to the idea too of building rapport with people when they see, oh, we have this commonality, we can talk about this or that. So actually, Kwame, it was funny. When I was interviewing for my prior firm, I ended up with one of the partners with a 30 minute interview. I think we spoke for maybe five minutes about my technicals, qualifications, whatever, 25 minutes about rugby. Because he found out I was over in Scotland and was a big rugby fan. He's a big rugby guy, played here in New Jersey for a number of years. And yeah, it's just when you find those just commonality points so that you can, you know, really jump in with someone, I think that makes a big difference. And so I kind of look at, you know, someone like Van Gogh as well that we talked about earlier. So actually it's really funny with him. He actually studied to be an attorney, did it for a couple months, realized, yeah, maybe this isn't my thing. And then went on to become one of the, you know, greatest authors in the. The German language ever. So you kind of find, you know, that we're looking at someone like Melissa, has a psychology background, works for the FBI. And there's just all these instances where having an interdisciplinary background, I think, is so incredibly useful because it allows you to conversant, to connect with people, but then also having the humility to say, you know, there's a lot of times where, you know, I'll be chatting with someone, their subject matter expert, and I'll say, this is super interesting. I love what you're saying. I think I understand it. But, you know, could you fill me in a little bit more? I think this is the point that I might be missing. You know, can you just kind of walk me through? I'd love to hear more about that. And, you know, when you show interest, it makes, you know, the conversation go that much better. So actually, it's funny. One of my other mentors, you know, the guy's brilliant. He's Ivy League, educated attorney, super, super smart. He always will say to people, well, you know, I'm just a simple country lawy, so if you could, you know, slow it down a little for me or something, I've adopted that every now and then. I kind of like that as well, that this guy has credentials. You know, his resume could be a mile long. And, you know, it's just that humility that makes such a difference.

Yeah, it's great. And the thing is, when you're approaching it in this way, you're doing it in a way that does not take away from your credibility. It's just acknowledging the fact that although I have value, that value does not include knowing everything.

Right.

It's really endearing. And it also gives the other side the license to do the same. They feel a little bit safer admitting when they might not know things. And the thing is, when sometimes you know a little bit about a lot of things, and it helps you to recognize just enough to the point where you know where you need to stop and ask another question, or it helps you to know what types of questions to ask. I might not know as much as this particular person on this particular narrow topic, but I know enough about it to hold a conversation competently. And I think this really goes down to one of the skills that I've seen so many negotiators have, which is fluidity. And I'm thinking about this in terms of not just intelligence in general, but cultural intelligence in particular, because we can think about the different things that you've learned. You said political science, finance, and then also environmental science, sustainability, and now law. Right. This gives you a lot of credibility to navigate conversations on those topics adeptly.

Right.

And so I think for us, as people who are professionals, leaders and negotiators, it's really important for us to have deep knowledge in the subject matter that we're focused on. So you have deep knowledge in law, investment banking, M and A and those type of things. Inescapable reality that you have to have deep knowledge on that, and then you blend that with the knowledge you have on other topics. It just makes you so much more versatile when it comes to these conversations, because not only can you handle yourself in those conversations, but also. And I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Sometimes a way of thinking or a way of solving problems from a different modality or area of thought, leadership can inform a creative solution in another area, too.

I love that as you were talking and I was already sort of where my brain was drifting, you and I tend to find ourselves on the same wavelength there pretty frequently. So, yeah, I agree. It's, again, quality. Going back to the class we're going to teach at Moritz next year, so excited for it, because we're blending. We're going to have the law students, of course, but we're also bringing in students from the business school. And so I think that's spot on is when you exist in a bubble, when you're. If you work in a law firm and are only around other attorneys, or you work in a bank and are only around other bankers. For me, at my last firm, I was the only attorney. And so I was really sitting there alongside all the bankers I was approaching. You know, I learned how to think more like a banker while still retaining my lawyer background. And so, yeah, the conversations were fantastic. We would both approach problems from a very different, you know, strategy that there were times where, you know, we'd get into a dispute and the, you know, someone would say, well, you know, our contracts, why don't we just sue them? Okay, we could do that, but you want to wait. Do you want to go to Brazil, navigate the Brazilian court system, pay who knows how much to litigate this, get paid in five years, or we pick up the phone, talk to them. What if we try and sort through this? What if we set up a payment plan? What if we, you know, there are any number of instances there where, you know, but again, maybe I'm, you know, too much of a negotiator at times. Or, you know, take a little bit of a soft hand approach. And so, yeah, I think that when you can blend approaches, but yeah, also just being able to, for me, think about the way that they're approaching as well. I have the finance background also, so I think that's helpful when you're, you know, able to view things and think about and kind of reason your way through problems in a different framework.

I love it. This is great, man. And I want to wrap up with the volunteer aspect because when we chatted about this, this was really, really fascinating, and I think a lot of people could take a lot of wisdom from this. So you're saying that volunteer work can help you to become a better negotiator. Tell us about that.

10,000% agree with that statement. So. And here's why. So for the last five or so years, I've had the immense privilege of serving as the president of Ohio State's New York City Allian Alumni Club. And so, you know, you hear alumni clubs, and I think a lot of times we think, you know, oh, for Ohio State, you're going to go watch the football game, you're going to have a happy hour, you know, whatever. You're not doing too much in the way of, you know, meaningful, impactful programming. But, you know, certainly not the case. We have a scholarship endowment fund. We have tons of volunteer opportunities that we engage in and also professional development, which brings me very nicely to my next point. So just a few months ago, we had the fantastic privilege of bringing Kwame in to lead a negotiation skills workshop for our alumni in the area. And so, so the way that this came together, you know, Kwame, we were kind of joking about this before we started recording. So we had to get creative to do this. Because think about this. When you're leading a volunteer organization, you don't have an abundance of resources. It's not like leading a Fortune 100 company where I could say, you know, hey, Kwame, would you come in and do this workshop if I gave you $50,000 and you say, okay, well, how about this? Let's make it 100,000. Fly in on the private jet. I'll put you up at the Plaza Hotel. I'll get you some courtside tickets to the US Open for Sunday. How's that so sound? You know, again, I know Kwame's a big tennis guy, so there, man, and interest, and I think I can make the trip for that. So anyone can do that, man. Right? I mean, it's not hard when you have basically infinite resources to Throw at the wall and come up with something. But in this instance, I kind of identify a thought. Man, I'd love to get Kwame out here. It'd be so fun to do an event with him. And so we started this conversation. This event happened in May of this year. We started the conversation back in November. I chatted with Steph. We were talking about, you know, well, hey, is, you know, Kwame planning to be in the city for any other events? Could maybe make it where we can kind of dovetail and get, you know, he' there for Tuesday. We'll do our event on Wednesday or something. So we finally found out it's actually really funny. You were in town for one of your friends weddings, and you were incredibly gracious and offered to stick around one more night and come in and meet with us on Monday morning. And again, back to this idea of, again, we're not a company. We don't have our own office space. We don't have anything to rent office space even for a couple hours in New York. Come on. It's impossible. So on a budget, it's impossible. But I had a good relationship with another alum here in the city. That again, post pandemic. So everyone's still a little bit semi remote there. Oh, yeah. I'd love to do that for you. Let me know whenever you guys want to come in. We'll open up the conference room. Kwame, what? We were up on, like, the 30th floor, looking out over Central Park. It was incredible. Such a cool space. And again, that's just something where we had to get creative. We had to pivot a little bit there, actually. I don't want to embarrass you with this, Kwame. This is one of my favorite stories, too. I think you know exactly where I'm going with this. It goes right back to humility and, you know, rolling with the punches, being flexible. So Kwame had been at his friend's wedding over the weekend. You were, I think, a groomsman or best man. But yeah, you were there in your. Your tux, your. Your rental sh and stuff. You got there on Monday morning. Said, man, my feet are killing me, But I want to make a good first impression. I'm going to come in my dress shoes, and I'm going to flip over to the Nikes here. You know, after I walk in, I just. I remember laughing about then. But again, it just kind of goes to show you the type of guy you are there that, you know, the appearance matters, but you're also. You don't take yourself so seriously that you're like, I'm among friends. I can, I can pop on the, the Air Jordans there.

I appreciate that, man. No, this is great and I love this perspective because you did, you worked that deal. I will tell you, my team is very protective. You made that happen. And it's great example because again, it's kind of like that old saying, necessity is the mother of invention. If you have infinite resources, cool, we'll just negotiate against ourselves because it doesn't matter. And it's not personally my money. But when you are leading a volunteer organization, you have to be creative because you don't have the resources. And so we have to recognize that in these situations there is still some kind of transactional element to it, even if no money per se is being traded back and forth. So you were able to find a way to lower the barrier of entry for it to make it super easy for, for me. And it was beneficial for me because I'm starting to recreate some more relationships in New York and now I'm going to be back for another training, you know, so it's a win, win. But again, if you don't have the need to be creative, then you won't be creative. And I think especially for folks who just in general, but people who are developing in their career, getting these opportunities to be a volunteer but a leader is incredibly valuable because you're to going to not only create great connections, but also sharpen your skills in ways that you might not have the opportunity to within your organization.

Totally. And that's the thing too, when you do get into some of those, you know, Fortune 500 CEO type roles, if you've come up doing this, you know, the value of a dollar, you know, you know how to be creative, how to conserve resources and not just throw money at the wall to, you know, to see what sticks. So I think it's very good on that basis as well. And the other thing that I just flat, you know, enjoy about is, you know, it gives, you're able to find things that you're passionate about and, and through that network effect, amplify them. So, you know, I'll give, I know you usually give all your guests at the end the, the opportunity to, you know, kind of promote what they're up to, what they're doing, give a little plug. So the one that I'll throw out there, and this goes for Ohio State alumni, golf fans, football fans, anyone under the sun, we are hosting a golf outing while golf and racket sports so tennis, pickleball, pickleball, Padel, all that. I know the. The tennis is interesting to kwame there on September 14 out on Long island at the Seawing Club. And the biggest announcement or the biggest, you know, hook this is. We are so fortunate. We're going to be joined by coach Jim Trussell and his wife, Ellen. We have a few former players from back in the. The early 2000s, early 20 teens there as well that are flying in to join us. We have senior members from the university's leadership team coming in. Again, these are all relationships that we've built up over, gosh, the last few years to make something like this happen. We're working towards a goal of raising $100,000 for our scholarship endowment by the end of 2024. So this goes a long way towards that to basically bring people in. And actually, this kind of comes back to the idea for the silent auction stuff. We have four floor seats for the. The Knicks that we were able to source through different relationships. We have a foursome at Muirfield. We're giving away, we're auctioning all of this. But, yeah, that's. Again, it comes back to, we can't go out and pay for this. We're not running a corporate golf outing. So we've had to get really creative with the way that we bring everything to together, you know, bring folks to the table. And so that's something that I'm just super, super proud of. We've got another great alum who's really been helpful with that. His name is Greg Waldman. So I always like to give a shout out to, you know, my friends that are helping me on this. So, yeah, and again, I met Greg a handful of times at events, but, yeah, Greg was the one with the relationship with Coach. Greg has, you know, really picked up the ball and run with it. You know, so many of these other, you know, relationships. And so through volunteerism, meet really cool people. You know, you share the same interest and, you know, just. It's that multiplier effect where you. You can't do it yourself. So. So it's been a lot of fun. So, anyone out there, Buckeye Nation Football, golf, tennis, what if you have an interest in any of them? Kwame's got my LinkedIn. He'll shoot to you. Find me on there. We'll get you out here to see when Club on September 14th.

I love this, Ryan. I will put links to all of that in the description to make it really easy for everybody. Ryan. This was a masterclass, my friend. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Can't wait to come back sometime. So, Kwame, you know, we should do. When we do the course next year, let's get the students on. Let's make this a. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we got ideas. Bruin, my friend, you and I are always bouncing off each other.

I like that. Oh, that's cool. Okay, Cool, man. Yeah, we'll make that happen. You see the gears turning already.

This is great. That's why I love working with you. You have a wonderful rest of the day, my friend. Take care.

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