Negotiating with Narcissists & Bullies: From Victim to Victor! Featuring Lawyer and Negotiation Expert Rebecca Zung

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. We with over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Hello, Hello. We are live and we are here with the brilliant Rebecca Zung. Rebecca, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're one of my favorite people, as you know. You are the best. The best.

The feelings are mutual and this was people were so excited about this because they love your work. But then also the topic is so pertinent, so powerful and I like to start off these lives. It's always just fun for me to see where people are coming in from, where are they listening from. So listeners, if you're out there, if you're live, let us know where you're coming in from. Want to make sure that we give a shout out to the folks who are listening on the Negotiate Anything podcast who are listening on YouTube and anywhere else you might find this. Welcome. Make sure to like and subscribe and also listen peeps. You got to check out Rebecca on all of the platforms, but especially YouTube. Rebecca, you are the person I want to be on YouTube.

I think we both have sort of envy. You have the, the LinkedIn. You know, you are the king of LinkedIn. I, I have my YouTube, but you, we both have to like sit down and give each other master classes on each other's platforms, no doubt.

Oh, this is great. So, yes, check out Rebecca's YouTube page. It's, it's incredible. So like the largest show in the negotiation world. That's, that's Rebecca with, with the YouTube presence. What is it now, 300,000?

Oh, no, I'm about close to 400,000.

Incredible.

Yeah, about 40 million. About 40 million views. Yes.

This is great. This is great. So listeners, we are here with royalty in the negotiation world. And this is great. We have people from all over the world. South Florida, Chicago, Georgia, Palestine, Atlanta, New York, Virginia Beach, Texas, Oregon, nyc. Great. Algeria. Karim. Thank you. I think you are the first person from Algeria coming in live. So this is amazing. Nigeria, Germany, Salt Lake City. We're everywhere. Global.

So Germany. My mom is, is from Bavaria. You know, my mom's family's from Bavaria originally. So, you know, I'm half German, half Chinese. I always joke I have no fun genes whatsoever.

This is great. I'm so excited. Saudi Arabia too. India and got to see Ohio too. So hey, I'm in Buckeye country. I'm in Columbus, so this is great. All right, peeps, let's jump into it. Rebecca, thank you for joining us. And let's just start off, give, give everybody a synopsis who you are and what you do.

So I am an attorney by trade, but I don't practice anymore, although I did high net worth divorce litigation for a long, long time. But for the last couple of years I have been on YouTube teaching people how to negotiate with high conflict individuals, narcissists and other high conflict toxic individuals. And whether it's in your professional life or your personal life, difficult people. And I started teaching people actually during the pandemic and as I mentioned earlier, I have about 40 million views now on YouTube. And so I now have, I have a, my core program which is slay your negotiation with a narcissist, which slay stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and then the Y stands for you. And I also now have a certification program which is you can become certified as a coach and that is a master high conflict certification program which is absolutely the best out there. And we've already started certifying many, many people in that program. And we getting ready to roll out now our badass women negotiation mastermind, which is going to be absolutely stellar. So we're building our own slay nation and I love it. It's, it's empaths rising up to band together and become so super strong so you can create your own new beginning and new future. So, you know, it's so much fun. I absolutely love transforming lives and helping people break free from toxic relationships, whether they're professional or personal. And then that's what I do all day long now. It's absolutely just the best. So that's me in a nutshell. And I have a brand new book coming out. I almost forgot to mention that, you know, in the, in the next couple of weeks. So that's what we're here to talk about, which is Slay the Bully, how to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. And Chris Voss wrote the Forward. But I also have an amazing endorsement from you which is just so, so, so powerful and I'm really honored to have it. So thank you.

No, it's my pleasure. It's an honor to be part of the, part of the mission, you know, because the work that you do is critically important and we cannot overlook the fact that we're not just talking about, that's say, negotiating for a raise, negotiating for a business deal, we're negotiating with lives on the line here. Because when you're talking about narcissists and people who are high conflict personalities, they terrorize people's lives. So it is incredibly important work that you're doing. And I think a really good place for us to start is just with simple definitions because people throw around the word narcissists a lot. But I want to hear it from you, the expert. What is a narcissist and what makes it a narcissist so tough to negotiate with?

Yes, I like to use a, what I call a layperson's definition in my book. I do of course, talk about what the DSM 5 definition is, which is what the mental health practitioners use. But I like to use a good layperson's definition because I think it's easier to understand. So it is a spectrum. And all the way at the end of the spectrum you would find your narcissistic personality disorder, which it is an actual legit personality disorder that is measurable by mental health professionals. But as you get closer and closer to that end of this spectrum, you're going to find more and more of these personality traits. But what it is is a person who feels, and I like to emphasize the word feels, because all people are inherently valuable. But this person doesn't feel any sense of inherent value, value inside, so they have to get all of their value from external sources. And it's like this empty hole inside of them. It's, it's scarcity to the utmost extreme. So this person is like, it's like they're starving, desperate, gasping for air. It's total pain and shame all the time. And so they, they are getting it from either big houses, money, celebrity, friends, all of that, which I call diamond level supply, that external stuff that you normally think of. But it's also what I call the dark underbelly of narcissistic supply, which is devaluing people, debasing people, treating people, poorly controlling people, manipulating people, which is what I call coal level supply, which is the not so good part of it. You know, it's, it's trying to build themselves up or bolster themselves by pushing other people down. So it's kind of those two things. And so, you know, you might try to help them fill that hole, but it can never be filled. So you're left feeling totally and utterly depleted, yet they're still starving there. It's just this horrible, horrible pain and shame, but yet it can never be filled and you're left, you know, feeling depleted. It's scarcity all the time. And so that's why they have no empathy. So that's really what a narcissist is. I mean, it's a person who's layering on external stuff to try to make themselves feel better. That's what it is.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Wow. I. My hand is tired from all these notes already. This is a masterclass. This is a masterclass and I think this is. It shows your expertise, obviously, because you've spent a lot of time dealing with this. And then it also shows the discrepancy between what people just think about what a narcissist is when we just use it in common parlance versus what it really is, because it sounds like. And I want you to jump in here and correct me where I'm wrong, Rebecca. It sounds like a lot of the pain that they deal out to others is caused by the deep sense of pain they feel in themselves.

100%. I mean, hurt people hurt people. And that's what it is. I mean, I always say that the way people treat other people is a direct reflection of the way they feel about themselves, Themselves, good or bad. You know, if people feel good about themselves, they treat people nicely. If they don't, then they're not going to treat other people well. You know, but if a narcissist is treating another person well, it's always a manipulation. It's always because they've got some ulterior motive going on. So, you know, but if they're not treating you well, you. You just can't take that personally. You can never take anything personally when people don't treat you well. You know, that's one of. One of my favorite books on the planet is the Four Agreements, and one of those four agreements is never take anything personally. You know, if. If somebody is criticizing you, you have to stop and you have to go, well, is this criticism something that I need to be. You know, do I need to do something about it? Is there something I need to actually take stock of? And if not, you know, then I need to just put it aside. And if there's something in my integrity I need to clean up, then clean it up. But most of the time, it's not when it comes to a narcissist. So you just can't take anything they do personally because they are hurt people.

Now, the people listening will say, all right, that makes sense. Don't take it personally. But it feels really personal when you're being attacked. And so what advice do you have for people when it comes to how they can operationalize? Not taking it personally.

So part of my slay method, which, you know, is stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate. And then the Y is you. You have to start with building a strategy, right? Create that vision. Where is it that you want to go? What's your gps? Be really, really super specific, and then you can create your action plan, and then you can go into building your leverage. But part of that is what I call, you know, your three steps to writing that ship course correction. You're. You're basically trying to completely turn everything around so that you're not on the defensive all the time. And not only on the defensive, a lot of times you feel like you're just retreating, retreating, retreating. And they're just constantly controlling, controlling, controlling. And it just feels like your back's against the wall or they just are always getting their way and it feels like it's not fair. And you know, that that's how it seems like when you're dealing with these high conflict personalities. And so you think, how can I turn this around? How can I make it be different? And so I, I have boiled it down to three steps, which is step one, don't run. Step two, make a U turn. Step three, break free. So you have to kind of put it into these baby steps, these little chunks, because they didn't start conditioning you over, you know, overnight. It happens over time. It's almost like that frog that's in boiling water, right? So you also have to sort of chunk it out too. So the first step is just drawing one boundary, one boundary. And I like to start with, you know, having a boundary of I'm not going to be spoken to disrespectfully, that'll be my first boundary today. And, or even just making a decision to, to, to, to stop allowing something today. But if, if, if that first boundary is I'm not going to be spoken to disrespectfully, that's a really great boundary. It's a really great place to start. And so you can just start with saying something like, you know, I can. This, this approach is not working for me. Or just start observing them as a person who's observing a third party who's, you know, a toddler having a tantrum on the floor or something. You know, when a toddler is having a tantrum on the floor, you don't think, I need to get down there, I need to have this tantrum with them. I need to take this personally. You just are looking at them going, okay, you're done yet? You know, and it's. Just start looking at them like that. Like, I can see that you're upset, I can see that you're angry. Just start taking yourself out of it. That's, that's a good first step too. Things like that just start like, almost like you have an invisible bubble around you. That's a great first step.

Oh, my. Where do I go with this recap? First of all, I, I think a lot of folks can relate to that feeling of constantly being on the defense, because typically when you're dealing with somebody who does not present with these narcissistic tendencies, there's some mutuality in the, in the interaction, and it really throws you off when somebody is just attacking, attacking and attacking. You just assume a reasonable, reasonable person would stop at some point, but they never do. And so just understanding that that feeling is universally felt under people in these circumstances is really empowering to know that there's nothing wrong with you in that situation. This is just part of the approach. And I love how we get you. We gave people three really simple approaches here, too, to turn things around. Number one, don't run. Number two, make a U turn. Number three, break free. And if you're in the midst of it, it can feel overwhelming. But by breaking it down into just taking one first step of setting a boundary, that makes it. And I think that's really what makes this so powerful because a lot of times we're just completely overwhelmed and we don't even know where to start. But with this methodology, you've made it simple and clear. So I just want to say I appreciate this and I want to let listeners jump in and say, can you relate to any of this that Rebecca is saying? Can you just put it in the comments? Let them let us know what you're going through, because we're going to get to you in a little bit. But I want to turn it back to you, Rebecca. I think if. If you. If folks are listeners of the podcast, they heard the episode where I tried to pretend to be a narcissist because.

You'Re so, like, not a narcissist. So it was so hilarious. You were like. You didn't even know, like, what to say. You're like, I don't know.

It was. It was a master class. But it goes. It goes to that perspective. Perspective. You said almost treat him like a toddler. Right. If to you. It was adorable that I was trying to come at you. That was. It was so good. So we got to shout out that episode, too.

Yeah. I want to make a point about their brain chemistry because I learned something in the research for writing this book, and I think it's so powerful to share that when you know. On how a narcissist was formed, because I think when you understand. Understand it, it makes it so much more easy in some ways to. To deal with and start that whole process of the step one, don't run and step two, make a U turn. And that is that how a narcissist was formed is sometime during childhood they were exposed to some sort of trauma on a regular basis or some sort of emotional neglect on a. On a regular basis. Something that caused them to Feel this, you know, some sort of trauma on a continuous basis. And when we as humans are in stress, when we have a stress, when we feel like we need to have, we're in stress response, we go into this fight or flight. And when that happens, our brain. Brains emit these chemicals, these hormones, which are adrenaline, cortisol, among other things. And when that happens on a regular basis where we're children, it causes damage to the limbic system, the emotional center of the brain. And then while the. The rest of the brain continues to develop as they. So as they go into adulthood and they are presented with situations that cause them to be triggered so that it doesn't necessarily have to be rational or reasonable to us. It is to them. So it could be an eye roll, it could be a tone of voice, voice, it could be anything that causes them to be triggered. That limbic system part of their brain takes back over and it's a snap of a finger. It's called. It's. It's called splitting. And so when that happens, now you're interacting with that limbic system part of their brain. And when that happens, now they are not thinking rationally, they're not thinking reasonably, and it's called narcissistic injury. And now you're negotiating with that part of their brain. And it is, They're. They're. They will take themselves down to take you down. And, and that's what is kind of crazy. And that's why I know for me, before I even understood this, and I've participated in literally thousands of mediations, I would be like, why is this husband and you know, burning his own business to the ground just to prevent the wife from having alimony. This makes no sense to me, but that is what was happening, you know, and so. And they'll lie about things that are readily verifiable, things they don't even need to lie about. And that. But that's what's happening. This narcissistic rage takes over a lot of times, but that's what's happening there. You're not dealing with rational, you're not dealing with reasonable. You're dealing with that limbic system part of their brain. And sometimes they don't even remember what they did during that period of time. And that's why they'll literally look you straight in the eye and say, that didn't happen.

That is terrifying, really, because when you think about it, especially the perspective of, well, they will take themselves down in order to take you down. It puts people in a position where they say to themselves, how do I even, how do I work with this? How do I deal with this? Because we can see that last part of the three step approach is break free. How do we, how do we get to that point where we've set that boundary? But maybe they respond with this narcissistic rage. What do we do when we find ourselves kind of stuck in that position?

Right? And that's where my slave method comes into play. And, you know, I tell people, you know, I have 40 million views on YouTube, I've sold, you know, over 10,000 of my slate programs so far. And, you know, and now I'm certifying coaches in my slay method. And I tell people I literally have thousands and thousands of testimonials at this point. So what I teach is not theory. It works. It absolutely works. So how you have to do it is not by pushing directly back against them. You do that, you're going to get immediate pushback. So you have to create first of all your vision. So slay stands for strategy. You have to create a vision, you have to create action steps. You kind of have to know what kind of narcissist you're dealing with. So I teach people how to identify whether you're dealing with a covert, grandiose or malignant because they each act a little bit differently in negotiations, by the way. And then you can create leverage now. Leverage. The reason why I, right from the outset was explaining to you the difference between diamond level and coal level supply is because that is going to be so key in creating your leverage. The diamond level supply is what a narcissist will protect and defend at any cost. At any cost. Even at the cost of their children, by the way. So that is what will inform how you will create your leverage. Because you have to create leverage that will potentially threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from manipulating you and then threaten that source of supply. But you can't actually take that source of supply away because if you do, then your leverage is gone. And there's many different ways that you can do that. And I teach people how to do that. And sometimes you don't necessarily have to take that approach. Sometimes you can kind of take this other sort of approach where you can sort of bolster their ego, I call it fluff or favor, vomit later and make it sort of seem backdoor, make it seem sort of seem like it's their idea, sort of seed things. But you might have to take sort of a combination of approaches as well. But most of the time, you kind of have to build this sort of invisible fence around them, and then sort of, I call it, like, turn the lights on. And then they realize, wait a minute, I'm sort of like, penned in here and these are my only options, A or B, and then this is how it's going to have to go. And it's an offensive approach, which if you're an empath, it's not comfortable. And if you're used to being rational and reasonable and sitting down and going, well, we're both rational and reasonable here. We want to just look to a resolution. Neither of us want to pay a whole lot of an attorney's fees. We both want to have this thing done. Then that doesn't normally make sense to people, but this is the only way that actually works. Anticipating is anticipating that they're going to try to bait you, they're going to try to trigger you, they're going to try to all, you know, move goalposts, all of those things. Why is the, you know, having this offensive approach and then, you know, making sure that you 100% believe that you can win, knowing your value, 100%, having this, you know, you and you alone, knowing that you define your value and, and you tell people what you are, you know, your, you know, authentic power. And I teach people how to believe that, you know, I. Through your body language, through reading their body language. And, you know, there's so much that goes into that, but, you know, you only. They only win if you give in. Right? I mean, there's just so much that goes into that. But you have to tell people what, what they're going to think.

This is so empowering, that last line. They only win if you give in. That's powerful because it's. It helps people to understand even though they are feeling pressure, even though they're under duress and you might be afraid of the situation. The only path to victory they have is by your concession. Right? That's so powerful. And the, the other thing that's really powerful and empowering is the fact that you have studied and analyzed their playbook. And so I'm sure you've probably had people who have read the book and gone through your. Your trainings and bought your course who have told you, wow, it was just like the book. They did this just like the book. I saw it all coming. I knew exactly what to do. It was still hard, but I knew.

What to do a hundred percent. I mean, it, you know, it's it's, it's easy. It's all right. Let's just say it's simple, but it's not easy. They are a hundred percent predictable. But it's never going to be easy because you're dealing with a high conflict personality. So, you know, it's exactly. I always lay out exactly what to do. And in my programs, you know, I give people templates and things like that, and I tell them exactly what to do. And, you know, a lot of it is in the book now, too, but. And you know, I'm launching, doing a huge launch event. So if you're watching this before September 30th, definitely come to my launch event, slaythebullylaunch.com and you can get the book at slaythebullybook.com as well. And I have a whole masterclass that I'm giving away for free and a workbook that I'm giving away for free right now, too, if you, if you buy the book right now. So definitely take advantage of all of the things that I'm giving away because, you know, I have scripts in there, responses exactly what to say, you know, because I'm really on this mission to help people with turning this situation around and breaking free. Because I know that armed with the right tools, resources, knowledge, it's all power. What they have is power, counterfeit power. And what you can arm yourself with is authentic power. And authentic power is going to beat this counterfeit power anytime, any time of the day.

Oh, this is great. This is great. And listen, Rebecca, you know, I could just talk to you forever. We've done that. There are several podcasts that never happened just because we were chatting.

I know, I know. It's so funny.

And so I want to make sure that we get an opportunity to, to bring in the crowd here because I see Annette has a great question. So, Simone, if you could pop that on the screen and then everybody else watching what other questions you have with Rebecca Zung. Remember, Rebecca is in a league of her own when it comes to how to have these difficult conversations with narcissists. So this is a unique opportunity for you to ask your question and let it be heard. This is really, really exciting. And so, Annette, how's it going? Shout out to Columbus. When we're talking about splitting, does splitting just happen with narcissists or can it happen with other people, too?

My understanding is that splitting happens with a number of different personality disorders, not just narcissistic personality disorders. I think it happens with a couple of other Ones too. Bipolar personality disorders, and some others as well. But I am not a psychologist, so I, you know, I don't want to, you know, speak to that, but my. My understanding is that it happens with bipolar, antisocial personality disorders and a few others as well.

Very nice. Ever the lawyer. We love disclaimers. Great, great, great. Yes. This is big. Yes. So in the third step, we talked about breaking free. So, Paula, shout out to Paula from Cincy. Yes. How do we break free if we can't walk away?

Well, if you can't walk away, I mean, first of all, I do recommend that you try to walk away if you can. So, you know, I don't know why you feel like you can't walk away completely. I don't know if it's because it's a family member or something like that. If it's a family member, then what I would suggest is that you at least try to have really clear boundaries in your life so that you do feel like you can at least break free mentally, physically, you know, in. In a way that emotionally you are protecting your. Your soul. You're protecting, you know, so that at least you're breaking free on a soul level. Because they will suck the energy from you. You know, they're energy vampires, and they're going to do whatever they can to continue to get that supply from you in any way that they can. So, you know, almost putting that invisible barrier around you in some way and figuring out how to do that is. Is going to be critical to your emotional and spiritual health. So if you can't walk away because it's a family member or something like that, figuring out how to break free in. In some way where you can create, like a soul boundary, I think is critical.

I like that. Because what we're doing is recognizing. All right, there might be some situations where it is difficult to break free, but we can reconceptualize that and say, what is it do I need that I actually need in this moment to feel safe? And then if you can carve that out, I think that that's what we can do, right?

Yes, a hundred percent. I mean, I really do recommend that you do try to break free physically as well, in every way that you can. I mean, because they don't change because of the nature of their personality disorders. They just. You're going to be stuck in a cycle of. They're going to promise to change. They don't change. They say things. It's always a manipulation. It's this constant cycle of trying to get the supply from you and it's a one sided situation, a one sided relationship and you're just always going to end up being depleted and it's just, you're never going to get your needs met. You're just never going to get your needs met. And so I, I just, you know, I do recommend that you try not to stay, but if you can't, then, you know, some kind of soul boundary I think is definitely in order.

Nice. And before we get to the next question, I one other thing too, because when it comes to breaking free, sometimes there might be a perception that we can't break free. And I'm not an expert in this, but I would assume that there might be a narcissist who would try to create that narrative that you cannot break free. And then sometimes it almost becomes like a self limiting belief that we can't. Even when there are some options, it will just be very, very, very uncomfortable.

100%. And that's why I, you know, was a little bit, I don't want to say skeptical of that question and you know, I don't want to minimize anybody or anybody's questions. But you know, many times people will say things to people, you know, I've heard this as a divorce attorney many times where people will say for years, you know, you could never leave me. I'll make sure you're out on the street, I'll make sure you have nothing, I'll make sure you have no money or you know, no one will ever love you, no one would who would ever want you or you know, just the, the, the narrative that goes on is just most of the time a big pile of crap, you know, and, and so I do recommend there's just so many things that are, you probably need to do to prepare yourself because trauma bonding is a real thing. And it is, you know, something that you probably need to get therapy for to prepare yourself and make sure emotionally you're strong enough for before you can leave. But then, you know, if you do want to leave, definitely have a stash of cash before you leave so that you can afford it. You know, you're going to need to hire an attorney to get, you know, you're going to need at least a retainer. Even if in most states, you know, if you are the non moneyed spouse, you can probably get the retainer refunded back to you if you qualify for fees. It's something you probably need to speak to an attorney about. But in most states you might be able to get your fees Covered. And you also may be able to get some sort of temporary support, also something you might want to talk to an attorney about. But both of those things, you have to get to a hearing. You got to, you've got to get it awarded to you. And all of that takes time. So you're going to need at least enough money to get you to that point. And even once you get to the hearing, they don't always rule right away. It's very frustrating. And so you will need at least enough cash to get you to that point. Have a plan. Have a plan for where you're going to be when this person gets served. Have a plan for where you're going to live. Definitely don't ever leave the house without a written custody, temporary custody plan in place. If you have children, you know, I would just make sure that you sort of have all of this in order. I've seen so many situations where people just leave and then they end up having to go back, and then it is so much worse because that narcissist sees that you didn't make it without them, and then they feel emboldened and empowered. So definitely have a plan before you leave. I hope that's helpful.

Incredibly helpful. I'm seeing the comments come through. Incredibly helpful. Thank you for that, Rebecca. Simone. Let's see what the next question is. Christy, what to do when the narcissist triangulates you? Oh, that's a good one.

Yes. So you're not going to be able to stop them from being narcissists. So, you know, I had a client say to me one time, you know, you've done nothing to stop their behavior. You're not going to be able to stop their behavior. They're going to be narcissists. So, you know, you can't, you can't be upset when they do the things that they're going to do. So never explain, justify, overshare, never, never try to defend yourself. But what you can do is definitely, you know, keep your own house in order. Always wear the white hat, always keep your circle of trust super tight. Make sure that you block them on social media. Make sure that you, everything that you write, everything that you text, everything that you post, whatever it is that you're doing is remembering that it's a potential trial exhibit. And then every time that they do something that they're not supposed to do, and I know it's super frustrating, but just, you know, think of it as, you know what, they just gave me something that I can use. Just thank you very much. Instead of getting frustrated and upset about it, just think of it in terms of, I, I just got a new something that I can use against them in negotiations. Because every time they lie, every time they do something, you can use that as some kind of potential, potential something. And you know, if it's a custody matter or something like that, the way I like to, you know, start building leverage is, you know, take your custody statute, wherever it is in your, in your state, you can pull the best interest statute and you can actually start organizing your documentation because documentation is going to be building your leverage. So, so start organizing your documentation by the factors of that statute. So if one of the factors is something like, and every state has a factor that's something similar to this, which parent is, you know, more likely to foster a close and continuing relationship with the other parent. And then they say, oh, you know, mommy is a terrible mommy or doesn't do this, whatever it is that they say to the kids, some text message or whatever, then you just say, oh, thank you very much. You just gave me a very nice exhibit that I'm filing right over here in this factor, you know, and, and that's it. And, and all of that stuff gets used at some point when you go to negotiate, when you go to mediate, when you go to use these things as leverage, because then that goes to potentially expose them against their diamond level supply. Because guess what, they don't want to look bad against the mediator. They don't want to look bad in front of their lawyer. They don't want to look bad in front of the judge. Those are all people who are potentially diamond level supply. So that's how you build it. That's part of your sleep slay method. Does that make sense?

It makes so much sense. This is great. This is really, really good. I'm seeing some other questions coming through because they're. Who knows, Kelly, this is a great, great question because there might be somebody listening and they're saying, wow, I might qualify. I might be that high conflict person. I might be that narcissist in somebody's life. And so to Kelly's question, you said that they don't change. Can they change if they get therapy or is there just no hope?

Well, you know, I haven't actually seen some people who have said to me, I used to be a narcissist. I ended up getting changed. You know, I was changed because I had some, you know, deep therapy or whatever. But the ones that I have been privy to who said that they Ended up changing were the ones that said, I lost everything. I lost my wife, I lost all my money. I, you know, everything. I hit bottom. And then I ended up going to a trauma institute for, you know, several weeks. And, you know, basically their ego was shattered and they had to do some deep work. Most narcissists don't think they need help. It's the nature of being a narcissist. So they don't end up going to therapy. If they go, it's because somebody made them and they end up sort of manipulating the therapists. And this. Most of the therapists that I've spoken to have said they don't want to work with narcissists because the narcissist doesn't end up embracing the change. So you can't. I'm just saying the person who's in relationship with this person, if you're going to sit around and think that that person's going to change, it's probably not the thing that you want to wait for. Just that. That's my experience.

Yeah, it's an unfortunate reality. But like you said, sometimes maybe if they lose everything, maybe that shatters the ego. They can come back. So, Kelly, to answer your question, if you can slay the bully, maybe you could be the catalyst to positive change. And now you have the method as well. So, Rebecca, before we go, I just want you to know this has been exceptional. I'm seeing everybody in the comments that it's. This is great. This is really good. So everybody in the comments, please show Rebecca some love. And Rebecca, before you go, can you please remind them about me, the book, your program, and also the. The mastermind that you're putting together, too.

Yes. So the book you can get at Slay the Bully book dot com. If you go there right now, you can get a free masterclass, a free workbook. You can also join my Facebook group, which right now we are doing an amazing book club, which is so much fun. So much fun. Actually, my master high conflict certification coaches are helping to facilitate that. So make sure that you do that. Slay the bullybook.com so much fun. And then slay the bully launch.com. make sure you sign up for that. If you bring five friends, you're going to get two free unpublished chapters of my book, which are the best. So good. And if you bring 25 friends, you're going to get a. A free signed copy of my book. So come join the party. And if you come live, I'm going to be giving away more bonuses. So come Join the party on September 30th at noon Pacific. So slaythebullybook.com slaythebullylaunch.com and by the way, on October 1st, I'm going to be signing books live in the LA area at Barnes and Noble at the Grove. So I don't know if anybody's in la. Come some see me at Barnes and Noble at the Grove as well. So and you can follow me on YouTube at Rebecca Zung Esq. And at Instagram at Rebecca Sung. So I. Oh, thank you, Paula Rosenberg. Awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All right. Love you guys.

Have a good one, everybody. Thanks.

My mastermind, we're going to be starting this badass women negotiators mastermind. So I can't wait. I can't wait to start my slay nation. It's going to be so fun.

This is great, Rebecca. Thank you again. Really appreciate it. Thanks, everybody. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the negotiations Appreciate anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.