Negotiating Without Power: Mastering Power Dynamics in the Face of Adversity, LinkedIn Live Event

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. We with over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Hello and welcome to another episode of Negotiate Anything Live. Of course. I'm Kwame Christian, a CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. And I love to start these lives the exact same way by making sure that it's working. So can you please put in the comments, just let me know that you're there. And then for the folks who are watching on or listening to the podcast, hey, what's up? Make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can actually join the conversation. This is an opportunity for you to actually be part of the podcast. For those of you who are listening on YouTube or watching on YouTube, make sure to like and subscribe. Okay. So you can keep up to date once we create these new videos. Videos and liking this content helps us to promote more of this free content to more people around the world. And speaking of around the world, let's see where people are are joining us from so we have Atlanta. Marcello. Hey man, you're always here. I Appreciate it. Hey, Mubina from Pakistan. Awesome. Good. London, England. This is great. Great to see you. Rose. Barcelona. Tony. Oh, great. Yes. You're going to be on the. On the show in a little bit. This is great. And then Michelle, of course, from Salt Lake City. It's funny, since I was. I went into Spanish mode for a little bit. I almost said Michelle, but. And then we have Toronto, Charleston. I was actually in South Carolina last week. Danielle. I was in Charlotte, and then I went to. What's that? Was that that. That Carowinds? So we went into South Carolina for an hour and then came back. So this is great. Awesome. Good to see everybody here now. And we have Boston. This is great. We got everybody from around the world. I love it. So how about this? We're talking about Power Dynamics, and I really found this interesting because I've been doing these negotiation trainings for a while now, but something changed this year. I don't understand what it is. If you have hypotheses, I would love to hear it. But for some reason, more so than any other year, in literally every single presentation I've done, people have been asking about Power Dynamics. How do I negotiate? When it seems like the other person has more power, when it seems like they have more authority, I'm getting that in. I would say in almost every single presentation, if you have hypotheses, share them. But I also want to know what is it about negotiating through Power Dynamics that makes it so tough? I actually want to hear from you and see the way that you are describing it, because what I'm thinking is that there's going to be a lot of commonality in the way that we describe that experience. What makes it so hard? What makes it so challenging? And why are people asking about it so much more now, today than before? And I think one of the elements that's really interesting about it is the fact that when I do these keynotes, when I do these trainings, sometimes I'm doing them for people who are in more transactional business scenarios. So in real estate, they're in procurement, they're in sales. We understand that. We're wheeling and dealing, talking about dollars and cents, we're talking about. But then I'm also hearing it a lot from the leadership context. So conflict resolution management, leading groups and teams of people, but more specifically, managing up. Yes, I'm a leader of my team, but how do I, as a leader, negotiate with my leader? That's tough. So I want to hear what your experience has been and what makes it so Challenging. So I know that there's going to be an element of difficulty that comes from the emotional context. So it doesn't feel good when you're negotiating with somebody and it seems like they have all the cards with. It seems like they have everything stacked in their favor. Just that feeling, the way that it emotionally feels and the way that registers through our body. It is not a fun experience feeling that. But then there's also the strategic challenge. What do I actually do about it besides the emotional challenge? What is it that I actually need to do in the conversation in order to break through and have success in that difficult conversation? That's the other element. So in general, it's a little bit of the emotional element and then it's also the element of strategic difficulty. Ariana, thank you for this. So Covid has both exacerbated people's anxieties and self consciousness, even in professional spaces. Additionally, people have had time to respect, reflect on mental health, social interactions and power dynamics. That's my hypothesis. That is a strong one. I think that's really good. Yeah, I think that's really good. Because during COVID we were focused not just on health, but also mental health. And so when you're more focused on that, you're going to be a little bit more aware of deviations in your emotional state. And so I feel good when I have a conversation with this person about that topic. But I feel differently when I have conversations with this person about that topic, this other topic. Right. And then also in Covid, there was a realization that we have to manage a lot of change. This is different for everybody. Everybody was impacted in some way by Covid. And so now we recognize I need to make some changes, but maybe my voice isn't being heard. And now I'm recognizing that my voice wasn't heard in this context and my voice isn't heard in other contexts. And then also with COVID when it comes to the more traditional negotiations, especially in the procurement and supply chain world, suppliers gain a lot of advantage. Because if you were a supplier that survived Covid and maybe some of your competitors were not able to survive, that gave you a lot of power in your negotiation. Because a lot of times power comes from options. And if you're negotiating with somebody and you know they don't have another option, then you have a lot of power in that negotiation. I think that's really strong. Michelle. Always coming with value here. Power dynamics make us feel vulnerable and can stem out from our own insecurity. We might perceive greater power in Another than they have that they have objectively. So we need courage to negotiate in this space, and we need to train our resilience to be prepared. Master class. I love this. Yeah. Because here's the thing. Perception is not always reality, but perception can feel like reality. And if we are dwelling on our own insecurities, our own weaknesses, our own deficiencies, then we don't recognize that other people might be dealing with the same insecurities, but they might be projecting themselves as strong. And what might end up happening is that we have two insecure people negotiating, but one does a better job of faking it in that situation. But since we can't see the other person's insecurities, we can't see their perception of their own weakness, but we can really clearly feel and see our own insecurities and weaknesses. Then when we compare ourselves to other people, it makes us feel worse. And so we have to recognize that the battle starts from inside of us. If I give you a bunch of great negotiation strategies, a bunch of great negotiations techniques, but you don't feel secure, you still feel weak, then it's going to come off differently. And so, again, I say this all the time. You can't give recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. We have to deal with the insides. That's what the whole first book was about, finding confidence in conflict. Because when I surveyed the podcast audience, what I found was that the two words that came up the most were confidence and conflict. They didn't have confidence and they feared conflict. So we had to win from within and negotiate from the inside out. So addressing that emotional state is going to be important. Good call. Good call. Great. So let's get into this. I think one of the first things we have to do is we have to understand definitions. Definitions matter. The word choice matters. And a lot of times a mistake that we make is that we conflate the definitions between power and leverage. Power and leverage. They are similar concepts, but they are distinct concepts. And if you misunderstand the distinction between power and leverage, then you're going to struggle to strategically address the problem at hand. So let's talk about power. So when we think about power, this comes from more, and I'm speaking broadly, there are nuances between all of this. So I'm just going to keep this as simple as possible, and then I'll let you all push me with me depth with the question that you ask. So with power, we're speaking about power that might come from a secure source. So I might have Power, because. Oh yeah, okay, Here at the American Negotiation Institute, I'm the CEO. I have power because of the authority that comes with my position. If I'm a large, multinational, multi billion dollar company, because of my size, because of the revenue I have, because of my notoriety, that is going to give that organization power. I think it's really easy for us to see power. And a lot of times when we see those obvious sources of power, it shuts down the rest of our analysis of the situation because we say, ah, they have power. Relative to that I don't have power. And now one thing that we do, and this, I'm going to take a brief detour into self help and then I'm going to bring it back to negotiation. A lot of times our insecurities are triggered because we are comparing our weaknesses to somebody's strength. We're comparing our weakest thing to somebody's strongest thing. And because of that, we become really focused on that discrepancy. But we don't take the time to evaluate our other sources of strength. So if I'm negotiating and I'm negotiating against this multi billion dollar company, I say, well, my company's revenue is only in the millions, so they have all the power. It would just be an honor to be able to work with them. And then they bully me in the negotiation. I was like, oh, they have the power. So I should concede this point. Okay, that is an incomplete analysis because you're not considering leverage. Leverage is a similar but distinct concept. And a lot of times leverage is not easily revealed until you dig deeper and deeper and deeper. And so when we're thinking about leverage, leverage is about strategic and relative advantage. Strategic and relative advantage. You might have power, but I have leverage. Watch me engage in a bad negotiation here. Okay, so Simon is the producer of the podcast. He's the reason that, why we are seven days a week so strong with the podcast. Right. I outrank Simon. I'm the CEO of the company. I know nothing about the podcast compared to Simone. Okay. When it comes to the podcast and the functionality and what, what makes, what makes the podcast go forward, Simone has leverage in that regard because he has greater levels of expertise, greater levels of knowledge. He has more value when it comes to the back end production of the, of the podcast. So when we come to the converse conversations, we, when it comes to the podcast, he brings a lot of leverage, even though I might have power and authority in that interaction. Right. And so when it comes to our business negotiations or the negotiations that we have internally within our companies, you have to dig deeper beneath the surface and not just stop the analysis short when it comes to power, because then we give up too much and we defer too much, and that leads us to concede more than is appropriate and more than is necessary. So a major source of strategic angst that you are feeling often comes from an in and an inability to dig deep enough to find your unique source of power. So power can come from the knowledge that you have relative to somebody else. They might have authority, but you have leverage because you have knowledge that they don't have. Right. That might come from connections that you have. They might be a bigger company, you might have relationships that they don't have. And so if you are very mindful of figuring out your unique source of leverage, then you even the playing field a little bit more. Now, that doesn't just affect the way that you approach the negotiation strategically. It also leads to a greater level of confidence and emotional security when it comes to the actual negotiation process. Because if I give somebody a strategy and I tell them exactly what to say, and they say it with confidence, it's going to sound very different than if I give somebody a strategy and I tell them exactly what to say and they don't have confidence, you can say the exact same thing. But if you have confidence versus if you don't have confidence, the efficacy of what you say is going to be completely different. And so in order for us to break through these power dynamics, we need to be able to figure out what our unique source of power is. A really good episode for this is we have Giuseppe Conti, an Italian negotiation expert who talked about negotiating without alternatives. His focus is more on transactional negotiations and what you can do in the procurement supply chain world. If you're negotiating with big companies, but you don't feel like you have any legitimate alternatives, it feels like they hold all the cards strategically. What can we do to find our unique source of leverage in that conversation? That's a great episode, Simone. If you could drop that, that'd be good. And then on the. On the more internal negotiation side, for leaders and. And people within organizations who need to manage up, I wanted to focus on the episode with Dave Stahoviak. If you haven't checked out Dave's podcast, it's exceptional. It's the Coaching for Leaders podcast, and he was talking about the process that you can go through when it comes to managing up. So not just you as a manager, managing people on your team, but when you want to manage up, how do I manage my manager. How do I get them to change their perspective? How do I approach this? And those two episodes are really good resources for you as you. If you want to dig deeper into this. But I've been on this monologue for about 15 minutes. Okay. So I want to give you all an opportunity to ask me questions. What questions do you have? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the arts with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. Ooh, starting hot. This is great. That was fast. So, Sarah, Sarah, Sara, let me know if I'm off on that. Is there a difference between negotiating with someone who really does have more power than you? For example, you negotiate with a CEO or negotiating with anyone who you only think that the other person has more power. You might have less power. Okay, gotcha. So I think here's the thing that's interesting. Whether the person actually has more power or leverage or whether or not you feel as though they have more power or leverage, it's essentially the same because you'll approach it in the same way. So if the person actually has more power or leverage, I'm going to approach it more deferentially if I feel as though they have more power or leverage. It might be an inappropriate assumption, but the strategic mistake that I will make is I will still negotiate more deferentially. Right. I might concede when I actually don't need to concede. So we need to make sure that we're doing our research and not just going based on what our emotions are telling us is reality. It requires a little bit more. But let's say this is a situation where you have actually done your research and you have figured out, oh, you know what, they have more power and they have more leverage. What do I need to do? That's a tough situation. And here's the thing. We have to recognize your only responsibility in the negotiation is to do the very best you can. Now that sounds like, you know, hey, this is children's sports. That's what you Tell them. Now, let me say it in a different position, a different type of way. Let's look at this at a higher level. Let's thinking of it from a game of chess. A game of chess, we all start from the same position, but in the game of life, we don't. When it comes to negotiation, we don't always start from the same position. But your job is to get an effective and clear and holistic analysis of what your position truly is, and then play your position the best you can. And sometimes your position just is not good, and sometimes that's not your fault, sometimes it is. But regardless, you are where you are, so you need to do the best you can. And so when it comes to the analysis of what we need to do, let's just bring this right back to negotiation fundamentals. I mentioned this in one of the last lives. We have to understand what our batna is, our best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Because we need to say, what is the best deal that I can get right now? And then if the deal isn't working for me, what is my alternative? So I can get a line, I can draw a line in the sand where I can say in my head, hey, I cannot accept anything that goes below this line. Because when you think about it, rarely in life do we are we found finding ourselves in a situation where we don't have any alternatives. We have alternatives, we just might not think they're good alternatives. Right? So let's say I'm dealing with a manager who has the power, they have the authority, and they actually do have the leverage. And even though I do bring value to the table, they're ignoring it, given their position. And it's a toxic work environment. And I'm trying my best to. To do what I can do to change some of these things, but the person isn't giving me what I need. So I need to ask myself, at what point does this become completely untenable? And if it is untenable and the toxicity persists, what am I going to do? I don't have any options. Yes, you do. If they keep on saying no and they create a toxic environment, then your job is to get a better alternative, which is a new position, maybe starting your own company, whatever it happens to be. But we have to start recognizing that sometimes the power and leverage doesn't come from the moves we make at the negotiation table during this particular negotiation. Sometimes it comes from the moves that we make away from the negotiation table. So, good book on this. Is negotiating in 3D by the last names are Lax and Sabinius. I believe they're out of Harvard. This was a really good book because it talks about the three dimensions of negotiation. So we have what you do when you're actually talking to the other person. But we also have the third dimension that people often don't consider, which is negotiating away from the table with other people, other entities, other negotiations, other opportunities to increase the value of our alternatives. Because as the quality of our alternatives increase, our negotiation power and leverage increase because we say, hey, I already know what I can get. I know what my plan B is. So in this conversation, we need to be at least this good. We need to be at least this good so that can help you to elevate your confidence. And so a lot of times, here's the reality. Sometimes, because we always talk about the ways that our emotions lead us astray, sometimes the fear that you carry into a negotiation comes from a legitimate place because you are actually perceiving it correctly that you don't have the alternatives that you wish you had. And so the best way to improve your confidence isn't just to try to utilize the power of positive thinking and wish things got better. It's like, no, okay, I'm feeling a lack of confidence in this situation because it's not a lack of confidence in my position, in my skills. I just might be. Might not be very confident in my position. And that lack of confidence in your position might be completely legitimate. And so that might be a signal that you postpone the negotiation or difficult conversation that you want to have, and then you work behind the scenes to get better alternatives. And as your. The quality of your alternatives increase, the level of your confidence at the negotiation table will increase because you say, listen, I will accept a lot of things, but I won't accept that because I know I can do better than that on my own without you. Cool. Awesome question, Ariana. How does honesty come into play with power dynamics in negotiation? Is it generally beneficial, or is it your best option to play it close to the chest? Are there some physical or verbal cues that are helpful in reading these situations? You know, I always try to go as far as I can, as long as I can, into a training, a presentation, a keynote, without using my typical lawyer crutch of it depends. But in this situation, it really does depend. It really does depend. So if the person has proven themselves to be trustworthy over time, then I'm more willing to be vulnerable with them. When I negotiate, I'm generally pretty open with the way that I negotiate. I'M generally pretty transparent. And I have the luxury of being able to do that for two reasons. Number one, I've done my homework. I know what I can say, I know what I can't say. I know what would hurt me if I disclose it, and I know what is fine to disclose. So that's one thing. And then I have faith in my negotiation skills. So after I share information, I have faith that I can protect myself conversationally. So it really depends on the circumstances. But what I found is that the more transparent you are, the more it triggers reciprocal transparency and vulnerability in the other person. So there's benefits to being transparent and being clear in your preparation on what you can share, because the more you share, the more likely it is for them to share. And negotiation at the end of the day is an information game. The more information you have, the more effective you'll be. And sometimes you don't know exactly where your leverage is until you have a conversation with the other person and you get information from them. And then you say, oh, you need me for that. You can't do that by yourself, can you? You actually need me for that. And so I like to be open and transparent because it gives me more opportunities to gather information. And the more information I have, the more creative I can be when it comes to finding my own true source of leverage. So it depends on that situation. But those are some of the considerations you should put into play when it comes to figuring that out. Great question, Irene. How does influence connections to others who may have power and leverage play into this? When do you bring those others into negotiations and are there ethical concerns to bringing in others? Of course it depends. But I think this is an important source of power because when we think about a negotiation strategy that is underutilized, that it's called coalition building. So I recognize that in this particular negotiation with this powerful entity, I, as a solo entity, I do not have very much power. But if I can negotiate with this person over there and this person over here, and then we can get on the same page. Maybe the three of us together have more power and leverage. We see this when it comes to cartels, yes, of the drug kind, but also when it comes to, like, pricing structures within organizations, between organizations in a more legitimate type of way. We see this with unions. An individual worker doesn't have much power, but if they have a union similarly situated people who have similar interests, then they have power as well. And so I think we have to think about our relationships really strategically and utilize coalition building a lot more. Strategically and a lot more often because a lot of times, again, when it comes to our own power and leverage as an individual actor or an individual company, we might not have that much. But if we can collaborate with other people who are similarly situated and have similar interests and we can pool our resources together, then we have more power and leverage and that can be really beneficial. Nice. This is interesting how much information you offer in a strategic defensive negotiation. I think it's, it's kind of like, let's utilize a couple of metaphors here. So let's use the metaphor of like drip, drip, drip, like water. And then also let's bring in some game theory and talk, talk about the tit for tat strategy too. So what I like to do is I let my, I expose my vulnerabilities and share information and I'm transparent using the drip methodology, I'm going to give a little bit of information and see how you respond to that. You need to reciprocate. Right. If I don't get reciprocal information, then I'm not going to feel comfortable sharing more. And so being transparent is not just a philosophical virtue, it is a strategic approach. So as I'm preparing, I'm going to say this is all the information about me and my situation and my circumstances, my thoughts and feelings that I'm willing to share. This is what I'm going to keep behind my back. You know, as long as it's not unethical. And I think the ethical part of it is the in law when it comes to the, the actual rules, the ethical rules, they say as long as it's not a, a material misrepresentation, then you're good. Right. So if I'm selling a house and the foundation is messed up, I need to tell you that. Because if I'm not, if I'm not telling you that, then it's manipulative. If I am withholding information that you need ethically in order to make a good decision, then I feel like that's manipulative. So that's my line. But if there's. But that. So when you think about it from that perspective, that leads a. Leaves a whole lot of other stuff that you can share. So great. I'm not just going to go in and start this conversation off and say, excuse me, I'd like to start with a monologue about all of my secrets and then say it all. I don't want to do that. What I want to do is I want to give a little bit and then I'm going to Ask an open ended question. I'm going to see how you respond. Okay, you gave a little bit of information. That's a good sign. I just contributed to the bucket of trust. You contributed to the bucket of trust. Let me try that again. I'm going to give a little bit more and then you reciprocate. Okay, now the conversation is flowing, right? So that's how I approach sharing. I think it's. It is dangerously imprecise to simply say, be transparent, be vulnerable. You have to add the strategic element to it. So you should be transparent. You should be vulnerable, but you should not do that to your own strategic detriment. There's a way to be transparent and there's a way to be vulnerable. We just need to think about it strategically before we do it. Great question, Clint. Can you further define ethical versus unethical manipulation? Yeah, man, great question. So when it comes to ethics, this is the tough part. So for me, as a lawyer, we have pretty strict guidelines. I know they're beside, like, forget all the lawyer jokes, right? We have pretty strict guidelines. Like I said, they go to extreme length. To be very clear, when it comes to the, the rules of professional conduct, what would substantiate a material misrepresentation of fact? And then when you think about negotiation parlance on the business side, the business world is very different and transitioning from like me as a practicing lawyer, to me more on the business side, it was exciting and intimidating because it's like the wild, wild west. There. There's no ethical rule book that I, I could follow. So it allowed me to create more unique deals, but less strategic, like ethical guidance. So this is my rule. This is my rule set, right? And this in it is incredibly imprecise. It will be incredibly imprecise to you, but it's really, really precise to me. So for me, my family and the honor that I bring to my family is very important. So I say, if my parents were watching, if my grandparents were watching, would they be proud? If the answer is no, I've crossed the line, right? That works for me. But everybody has to find their own line, right? And so I think another thing that's helpful is if I were on the other side, would I feel as though they were playing the game unethically? Would I want them to share that information with me? If the answer is yes, then I share it. And the thing is, we have to come to terms with the fact that not all deals are meant to be made. That can be really scary because if I'm at this Point where I say sharing this information could lead to losing the deal. But if I don't share that information, it could be unethical. You know what that means? I shouldn't have made the deal. Not all deals are meant to be made. Not all deals are possible. And so sometimes ethics will lead us to lose a deal, but we shouldn't be trying to get deals that are not meant to be made. Right? So I think the ethical line, it's really, really fuzzy. That's the tough part. There was this article, man, this is an old one. I don't, I cannot, I cannot remember the, the authors of this article, cannot remember the authors, and I can't remember the journal. But the, the, the title was something about the distinction between like lying, puffing and bluffing. Lying, puffing and bluffing. And it's funny sounding words like, okay, well, everybody knows what a lie is. This is true. You said something that wasn't true. You can't do that. Shouldn't do that. Right? But then puffing and bluffing, that's where it gets really interesting. So bluffing is, in my opinion, bluffing is a lie. You can't do that. So I, I don't want to do that too. So bluffing is when you are stating something with, with strength and assertion even though it's not true. So for instance, a bluff would be like a fake. Walk away. Okay. If you don't accept this deal on these specific terms, I'm out of here. And it's not true. It's, it's not true. Right? And then it puts you in a really bad position because if somebody calls you on your bluff and they say, oh, sorry, I can't give you those terms, and you're like, well, maybe we can. You look silly. You lose credibility. Strategically. That's a bad move. It's too risky. Right? But then puffing, Puffing on the other hand, isn't as strong as a buff, like a bluff or a lie. It's something kind of in between. So you're saying, you know, with these terms, it's going to be really hard for me to justify this to the team. I'm going to be honest. It's just really going to be hard. That's not something I feel comfortable doing with. Could I do now, like the reality, Could I do it? Yes, I could do it. But I'm going to make it seem as though it is really hard, but I'm not going to say it definitively. And so that's the thing. Puffing to me is okay. Puffing, to me, is something that is naturally occurring just in all human life. Right. So I never want to explicitly say, like, this is my bottom line. I just. In general, I'll. I'll make it clear. If I'm going to walk away, that's not a joke. I'm actually saying that specifically. I'm letting you know that unless the terms change, like, this is untenable. But I think with our words, we have to be really precise with it. And that's where preparation comes into play. Because when we think about ethical lines, one thing that I found is that sometimes people lie by accident. Now, let me explain what I mean. Sometimes lying is a fear response. You move too quickly and you're unprepared. So somebody asks you a question, you answer quickly because you're afraid. It's like, is this something you can do? Absolutely. This is something you can do. Oh, I answered too fast. I didn't. I did not check with my team. I did not check with my team. I don't know if I could do that. Right. So one of the antidotes for unethical behavior is effective preparation. Right. And then also humility, not answering questions when you don't know the answer. And I think that generates a lot of vulnerability. Because you're saying, I'm not quite sure. This is what a human does when they're not sure, they let the other person know that they're not sure. Right. Because it's, it's beneficial because it, it generates positive momentum for the relationship, but it also teaches the other person that it's okay to not know. So if I ask the other person a question and they don't know, I don't want them to feel like they need to BS me. That doesn't help me. Right. So if I don't know the answer to the question, I'm going to let them know because I'm not going to run the risk of misleading somebody inappropriately or unintentionally. But I also want to give them the license to be that. That humble and vulnerable too, because I'm showing that it's okay through my approach. Good question. What is the difference between leverage, Leverage and blackmail? It's actually a good question. It's actually, it's a very, very, very, very good question. I think the difference between. Let's, let's think about a typical black male type of situation. Blackmail is kind of like a threat, right? If you don't give me this, then I'm going to do that. Right? I'm. I am Making it clear that I'm going to do something to you. I think it's the coercive element of it that makes it a little bit more problematic. A big thing is too, when it comes to, like the idea of, of blackmail. Also, let's, let's widen the aperture of this conversation too. It's not just blackmail. It's concepts like blackmail, extortion, or ultimatums. A lot of times it comes down to perception because if you're saying somebody's giving you an ultimatum, what we're saying is that they're manipulating, using the levers that they have. But maybe what they're actually doing is they're clearly articulating a boundary and they're saying, hey, if we can't get this done on these terms, I, I apologize, but it's, it's just not in my best interest. I guess you could frame that as an ultimatum, but it could also just be the clear articulation of about, like a bright line boundary too. So I think if we're in the perception of blackmail, it would be the perception that you are inappropriately holding on to information that could be damaging solely for leverage in this position. And I think the, the key that we need to keep in mind here is perception and how other people may perceive our behavior. So, for instance, this can come into play when it comes to the distinction between warnings and threats. So if I'm threatening somebody, it feels coercive. It dam the relationship. But if I offer somebody a warning, they might not like it, but they might appreciate it because of the clarity. So let's see the difference in action. So if I'm negotiating with somebody and I say, hey, if. Yeah, actually a legal description, a legal example is really beneficial here. So if I'm negotiating like a contract dispute on behalf of a client and I say, hey, listen, if you don't do xyz, we are going to sue you. That's a threat. Right? And the, the way that it is semantically articulated is, hey, I am choosing to do this to you. It's my choice. I am harming you, but with a warning. What I'm doing is I am giving them autonomy and control over their decision making while letting them know the consequences of the decision that they make. So I'll say, hey, listen, I understand that this isn't a great situation for you, and I understand that you have some needs and interest as well. And for me and my client, we have needs and interest. And so I just want to let you know that based on the offer that we have on the table. That's not something that my client will accept. And if that's where you want to stay, that's okay. But if this is where you stay, then my client will need to do xyz. So what I want to let them know is that I am empowering you to make a decision. You do what you want to do, but I also want to let you know what will happen if you do that thing. Again, it's a subtle distinction, but I want to be mindful of the perception, and I don't want to do undue damage to the relationship. Cool. Tony. Power is often in the mind of the person. What do you do when you come across an egomaniac who believes they have power but you think otherwise? That happens quite frequently. That happens quite frequently. And so here's the thing, because think about the term that you used. Egomaniac, right? They think so highly of themselves, and they. Their perception of themselves and their position does not correspond with the reality. And usually they do this in a very emotional way with a lot of bravado, and they frame it in terms of me over you. I am over you. I'm better than you. And so what ends up happening is that feels disrespectful, because it is. And then we respond emotionally and we say, well, this. They're. They're coming at me with this level of emotion. I need to match that energy. Now we have an unproductive dialogue. Now we have a fight. I don't teach people how to fight. I teach people how to negotiate. And so in that situation, if I know I have the power, I've done my research, I know. Then it's one of two things. Either they are bad negotiators, which happens, right? We experience bad negotiators all the time. Or they're bluffing, which happens. And so what I'll do is I'll approach it the same way. I'll say, hey, listen, that's. That's fine. I understand your perspective. I'm going to listen. I'm going to validate. I can validate without agreeing. I can empathize without agreeing. I'm going to make it clear that I fully understand their perspective. I just disagree. And so what I'll let them do is I'll say, hey, listen, you feel like you have the power. I respect that. I see things differently. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to go ahead and do this, and if anything changes on your end, let me know. I'm still willing to chat but otherwise, I think what would be best is for me to use one of my alternatives. I know what my batna is. I am not going to waste time having an unproductive conversation with somebody who thinks they have more power and levers than they do. I could either have a conversation and try to get them to see reason. I'll do that. If I'm here and I'm having the conversation, I'll do that. If the conversation ends, they and we still disagree, then I'm just going to execute my alternative. Then I'm just going to let them feel my power. Respectfully, but you're going to feel me. Right. And a lot of times what ends up happening is either they're bluffing, I call their bluff, but I believe I allow them to save face in that negotiation so they can come back to the negotiation table easily, or they genuinely, they genuinely thought that they had the power and then they figured that out and then they come back to the negotiation table. I think a lot of times when we think about negotiation, we focus too heavily on the conversation aspect. I don't need you to agree. Sometimes I can just show you my point. And that showing of the point is a lot more powerful. And I think it leads to more effective and efficient conversations too, because sometimes that respectful show of force is much more persuasive and efficient because other people might not think that you're going to do what you said you're going to do. And the best way to prove that you're going, that you're willing to do it is simply by doing it. Yeah, great question. Cool. Michelle says power can be found in generosity and humility. We gain power of giving ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think my career is a great example of that because for me, I built this platform with the podcast to try to bring up up other people and promote them too. And so I have a lot of allies in the industry. You know, it's not, it's not because I'm blackmailing people. It's because of generosity. Generosity creates reciprocity. So I know I can call in favors if I need to, but that's not why I do it. And that's where you're right, Michelle. Just generosity is a source of power and it's often overlooked, but I think it's the strongest source of power we have. So when we think about the whole alpha mentality, if we think about what in the primate community, we're, we're just higher level primates. If you think about the primates, like chimpanzees what they found that was interesting is that the. The primates who were the alpha males of the tribe, they weren't always the biggest, they weren't always the strongest, and they didn't always get their position by dominating the other. The other males in the. In the tribe or whatever they call it. They got it because they were the most generous, they helped enough people, so they had a lot of social capital. Right. So we can't. We. We can't always think about power in terms of this Machiavellian, dominating source of power. This most like the strongest and most sustainable source of power is going to come through generosity, is going to come through relationships, and that takes a lot of time to build. But I would say it's the most stable and most rewarding source of power as well. Good. What are the questions we have? Any other questions coming through? Ah, Patrick, just because you're negotiating with the business person, it does not mean you're negotiating with the same business. Yes. Yes. It does not mean we're negotiating with the same business person. Right. Again, like. Like Tony's question said, if the person's an egomaniac and they have an outsized perspective of their position, that's not. That's not reasonable. And a lot of times, especially when people are emotional, they will operate in an unreasonable type of way. And we have to be able to do our preparation and have enough confidence in our skill and our position and our research to know how we should play our cards, too. This is good. Cool. Oh, I see another question just coming in. What do you think of the definition of power given by Robert Greene in the 48 laws of power? I do not recall his specific definition, but I will give my opinion on the book. I think it's a very useful book. And as I was reading it, as many people do, I felt kind of icky as I was reading it because I was like, oh, people do these type of things. But I think it's a very important read because it shows how other people can perceive power. Because out of the 48 laws, there were few that I would feel comfortable using. However, when I think about just my ability to navigate the world, understanding how other people see the world is really, really beneficial. So people would ask me sometimes, hey, when somebody comes on your podcast, do you agree with everything everybody has ever said on the podcast? And I say we have almost a thousand episodes, so the answer is definitely not. And the way that I think about it is that there are certain negotiation strategies that I will use. Some negotiation Strategies that I won't use. Sometimes I won't use it for ethical purposes. Sometimes I won't use it just because it doesn't jive with my personality. I couldn't use it authentically, so it wouldn't be persuasive. But I think it's important to you to understand the strategic approach of everybody, regardless of whether or not you think it's ethical or not. Because even if you don't want to use it, it's important that you understand it so when it's used against you, you can combat it. So we always have to understand not just our own side, our own perspective, but even more so, I think it's important to understand the other side, our counterpart, the person who we might describe as the enemy. What will they do? What are they willing to do? What are they capable of doing? What will they consider doing? Because a lot of times we might think that somebody is so abhorrent, so evil that I will not even investigate their strategic approach. I think that's a strategic misstep. And I think that we do that sometimes to our own detriment, and we're guided by our emotions and we shun it completely. But it doesn't. I'm not saying that you should utilize those techniques, but you should understand it. Yeah. Can you speak about interpersonal power, in contrast to positional power, other types of power? Yeah, yeah. Interpersonal power can come from the relationship, the quality of the relationship, and it could come from the information that has been shared during the relationship. You know, you can think about it. Let's think about it like a basic example. Right. So if you think about, in terms of society, in terms of, like, resources and. And notoriety, whatever it happens to be, I have more power than my parents, but they're still my parents. Right. Because of that relationship, they can have power over you. I think that's a really, like, obvious example, but let me make one a little bit more interesting, too. Sometimes somebody has psychological power because of the history that you share. So you might not know this second name, but you probably know the first. Roger Federer, the. He was the greatest of all time. And now Nadal and Djokovic have caught up. But all you need to know in tennis, he was really good, and there was time where he could not be touched, just could not be touched. But there was one Argentinian player named David Nalbandian who was always a top player, top 10, top 20, but never was really threatening for major tournaments or anything like that. But people found it very strange. Federer had a winning record against pretty much everybody early in his career except David Nalbandian. Lost one game, lost two, lost three, and I think it was up to five straight matches he lost to David Nalbandian. And it turned out that when they were juniors, when they were at the same level now, Bandian had Federer's number. And so even though at this point in their professional careers, Federer was objectively better on every single level, he still had that psychological advantage over him. It was a very strange thing. He overcame it eventually with more maturity. But we have to recognize that the matchup will matter. And sometimes there can be interpersonal power and leverage that exists psychologically and emotionally that is perceived and understood between the two parties, but can be very perplexing from the outside looking in, because you're like, what is happening here? That doesn't make any sense. And so I remember one time when I was coaching a procurement team, they were like, hey, we have this tough negotiation. And the lead negotiator was talking to me, we need this deal. But me and the other negotiator, we just never get along. We never get along. Power dynamics have shifted. We need this deal. More relative advantage has gone in their favor. And I just cannot get along with this person. What should I do? And I said, you're negotiating as a team, right? Yeah, we're negotiating as a team. You might want to consider switching your position. You might not be the person who should be leading this negotiation. If there's a matchup issue, for whatever reason, I don't need to know your history. I just need to know that right now this matchup is not, not working. So I can give you some relationship building techniques and everything like that, but based on what you're telling me is that for the last two years, you haven't had a good relationship and power dynamics have shifted. And so the question is whether or not you're willing to try this new approach and kind of reset the negotiation by bringing a new lead negotiator in, rather than giving the other person to punish you for the history that you bring into this relationship. You know, and so sometimes we have to think about the reality that there are going to be strategic psychological and emotional advantages that might not be perceptible on paper, but we have to be really honest with ourselves to recognize that there's going to be some power dynamics that are unique to each relationship that should be considered in our strategic approach. Do you have a specific roadmap for how to prepare for power dynamics in a negotiation? Simone, can you Find the. On our website we have the negotiation toolkit somewhere. We can just drop a link to that. I think that's really important. What I would say is we'll drop that roadmap into the chat. So you'll see how I prepare for every single negotiation. And what I would say is that there are many different ways to prepare. This toolkit shows the way that I prepare and go through when it comes to my specific negotiations. But I wouldn't get married to a specific approach. As long as you're using a thorough approach, many different schools of thought on this, then you're going to be better off than most. Right. You could prepare my way with the American Negotiation Institute. You could also prepare using the, the Harvard Program on Negotiation, selling seven elements of negotiations, analyzing in that way. I think what is required though is a strategic and methodology like a strategic method and methodical approach to preparation. Because you're probably going to forget certain elements of preparation. You're probably going to be led by your emotions, sometimes inappropriately, in a way that leads you to overlook certain things. And so if you use a methodical approach, that is the way that I would say it. I wouldn't say a specific one. I'll show you my one. I'll put that, we'll put it in the chat there, it's in the guide. But. But yeah, I think that will show you the way that I do it. But don't feel like you need to use my specific approach. As long as you're using any type of strategic approach but you approach it thoroughly, I think that's going to help. And Patrick. Yes, I remember Andre Agassi understood Boris Becker's serve so well that when Boris would serve his tongue would stick out in different directions and it was actually a signal to which way he was serving. And he never told anybody until after they both retired. Wild, right? You have to know your opponent, know them really well. Irene, can you talk about the importance of asking questions to try to mitigate making assumptions when negotiating? We have to remember that biases are ubiquitous. We often limit our understanding of biases to strict like protected classes of citizens, race, gender, sexuality, those type of things. But when we limited ourselves in that way, we miss, we miss the strength of understanding the psychology of bias. One bias to consider is self serving bias. So we're always typically going to be biased in our own favor. And so what we have to do is we have to recognize that we, the first person we need to negotiate with is ourselves. So I need to start to become a little Bit more skeptical of the conclusions that I'm drawing, the assumptions that I'm making. And what I've started to realize is that the more forcefully I believe something, the more likely that a bias is probably at play. So the more emotions I have behind my assumption, the more skeptical I am of that assumption. So the questions that I'm going to ask are more going to be self directed. So I'm going to ask myself, how do I know that to be true? Okay. Then I'll answer that. How do I know those things to be true? What am I potentially missing in this? And so first I'm going to ask myself these types of questions. And then you'll see in the negotiation toolkit that we sent that we put in there, there's a portion where you're asking strategic questions. So I'm going to then go through my questions and then I'm going to question my questions, right. Am I biased in the way that I'm asking this question? Am I setting myself up to inquire in a way that is confirming my understanding? Because if I'm confirming my understanding, but I have not yet confirmed my understanding, then I'm confirming a misunderstanding understanding. So this is a. We can rewind that and play it back. Right. And so I think what we have to do is recognize that sometimes with the way that we ask our questions, we're not asking our questions to gather effective information and understand things, we're actually gathering information to confirm our understanding, our preferred conclusion. Right. So what we have to do is try to debias our questions so we can debias those answers. And a big mental shift. This was Susan Bork. How to prepare for your negotiation 2018. Great episode. She talked about listening, asking questions. What was it? Ah, yes. Instead of going into the conversation with assumptions, we turned them into testable hypotheses. Right. So I'm not going in there to confirm my assumption. I'm going in there to test the hypothesis this may be true based on my perception of the situation, based on my preparation, this might be the case, but I don't know if it's the case. So I'm going to go and ask the question in a an unbiased manner to see whether or not it is the case. So I think just mentally and we're thinking about our mindset instead of thinking about assumptions which are beliefs that we believe to be true, we're going to go in there like a really good scientist. This is a hypothesis, but I'm going to test it. I might be Wrong, wrong. And if I'm wrong, that is just as valuable as if I'm right. Because the goal in these conversations when it comes to extracting information and gathering information is not for me to be right, is for me to get the, the proper information. That's what it's about. Cool. Awesome, man. This was good. This was good. 53 minutes of fun. Awesome questions. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Danny K. Always dropping gems. You are the summary queen, my friend. I appreciate it. I appreciate it all the way from if I remember Jamaica. Right. So thank you bringing some sunshine to the chat. But yeah, check out the next one we are going for. I think it's August 23rd is going to be our next one. Let me drop some potential news. Jason Christie is going to be our guest. It is going to be an actual interview. So just a heads up, we're going to do a live negotiation workshop from New York City. Very excited. We just signed the deal last night and so the, the cool part about it is the location. It is going to be in a 28 million dollar New York City luxury residence. Super excited about that. And so my hope is that we can replicate that, but I'm not sure if or when that would happen. So if you can make it August 30th in New York City, be there. If we. Simone, if you could drop a link in the comments for that, that'd be really sick. And then Jason is going to be there as well. He's a New York City realtor. He's been a guest on the podcast before. His last episode was awesome. So we're, we're going to chat about the event, but also give some gems about real estate negotiation which will be fun. So appreciate you all. Thanks for joining me. I'll catch you in the next one. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.