Negotiation Network Effect With Jordan Sale

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Jordan, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Yeah, we are excited to have you, my friend. You come highly recommended. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, definitely. So I am the founder of a startup called 81cents and I started 81cents almost four years ago at this point, really with the goal of closing pay gaps for underrepresented and historically excluded minorities. And we do this by basically supporting candidates through tough negotiations, performance reviews, trying to help them figure out if they're being paid fairly or not. And we have sort of an interesting approach to doing this in which we try to go out and source the data that candidates need to negotiate effectively and to really kind of build confidence to do so. So we've built this awesome network of at this point about 2000 plus hiring managers, recruiters, really senior professionals who basically give candidates feedback as they go through negotiations and tell them, you know, I think your offer is under market. I hired a candidate last week, here's what they were making. If I were in your shoes, here's how I'd approach that negotiation. Really, our goal is to help candidates get the type of data and type of perspectives that they may not have access to within their own network.

That's great for the listeners. I think it would be really fascinating to actually talk a little bit right now about the synergy between data and confidence. When you're working with people and you provide them with data, how what is the nexus between the data and the.

Confidence It's a great question, and I have a good story to kind of explain. So I guess, you know, everyone knows that data is important for negotiation, or that's what it seems like. You know, most people think, okay, I got an offer. It feels lower than I want it to be. I'm going to come up with some data, and that's how I'm going to persuade the hiring manager and recruiter to increase the offer. And that's totally true, but I think people don't always realize how important data is for their own confidence and for how they really position that ask. So a few years ago, we worked with a candidate named Christine, and she came to us. She was a data scientist, came to us feeling pretty sure that she was being underpaid, and she was frustrated. She'd been doing great work. She'd taken on more of a management role. She was getting great feedback, hitting all of her metrics and okrs and things like that. But her pay hadn't really shifted in a couple of years. And so she came to us feeling a little frustrated, and she was thinking of having a conversation with her manager. So we took her compensation and kind of a description of who she was and her background, and we sent it out to our network of advisors. And for Christine, we got feedback from about 11 different data scientists, hiring managers in her field, recruiters who focus on data science. And all 11 of them said she was being underpaid by about 20%, and they thought that she could easily earn more elsewhere. She'd been doing such great work. One of them even said, I'm hiring for roles on my team. I'd love to interview you. I think you'd be an awesome fit. Suddenly, Christine went from being a little frustrated and thinking of having a conversation to pissed. She was now sure she was being underpaid, and that totally transformed the way she thought about what to do next. Within a few days, she had scheduled time to meet with her manager, made a really compelling case for why she was being underpaid using the data that we sourced for her. Her manager was scared to lose her and was like, I'm going to get this fixed. Give me a few days. Then a couple of days came back and had found 10 or 15,000 more dollars for her pretty substantial increase. But she knew she was being underpaid by a lot more than that. And so she started reaching out to recruiters and applying for roles, and within a few weeks had a bunch of interviews lined up, interviewed, got a job, and ended up accepting an offer that ended put her at $80,000 more than she had been making and actually a level up. And she was now going to be at her manager's level at a different organization. And so I think that's, to me, the power of data is it totally transformed how she thought about herself, how she thought about her market value, and then what she decided to do next. And it's not to say that she couldn't have made a case for more. It sounds like she was doing great work. I think she would have gotten a raise. But that certainty that she was being underpaid and that certainty that she wasn't being fully valued, I think that's something that really only something like data can show you.

What a great example. I got chills as you were saying that $80,000 on top of her salary, in addition. That's wild. That's wild. But it also shows a couple of things. First of all, these big companies act broke and then they magically find money quite frequently, which is interesting. But also, I like the term that you used, which was certainty. Humans psychologically crave certainty, but in this complex and chaotic world, it's so rare that we get it. And when we're thinking about our career, this is something that's important to us. It's important to us not just financially, but in terms of status, in terms of prestige, in terms of feelings of appreciation and acknowledgement. It's really tied to us, not just financially, but also emotionally, too. There's a lack of certainty that comes with any types of negotiation because you can control what's in your control, but you can't control their decision making. It seems very risky. I have this thing that I care about. I don't want to risk losing it. What it sounds like is that a major part of the confidence, like you said, comes from certainty. I don't know whether or not I can get more. And now you make it very, very clear. Yes, I am certain I can get a lot more. If not with this particular company, with another company too.

Absolutely. And I think, yeah, what you were saying kind of reminds me of this idea of you can either view negotiating through a lens of scarcity, of, oh my gosh, if they don't say yes, I don't know what I'll do, or if I don't get more, I don't know what I'll do, or oh my gosh, they probably don't have any more to give me, or you can view it through more of a lens of abundance, really. And just Christine, in this example, really believed that she deserved more. And if it wasn't going to come from her current employer, she was certain it was going to come from somewhere else. And I think that confidence really shown through both in her conversations with her manager and then also in interviews with new potential employers as well.

Yeah. Oh, that's great. That is great. And it also gives us an opportunity to segue very smoothly into the concept of this episode, which is negotiation, network effects or network effects in negotiation. And listeners, I want you to know that you are in for a treat because this is a Jordan Sale special. We are at 500 episodes and I've read a lot of negotiation books and never have I heard of this concept. This is really big. Jordan, please share your thought leadership with us. What are we talking about when we're talking about network effects in negotiation?

Definitely I appreciate you helping me brand this concept, but I think one thing I've realized, and part of the reason why I started 81 cents was because I noticed that the way you negotiate is a direct reflection or representation of who you get negotiation advice from. So what I mean by that is there is so much nuance and specificity that comes into play in negotiations depending on kind of who you are, what type of roles you're applying for, what type of work you're doing. Nonprofits negotiate really differently than startups who negotiate really differently than Fortune 500 or Big Tech companies. And if you're getting advice from someone who doesn't have experience in the field and function and industry that you're working in, I can almost guarantee you that you are missing a competitive advantage. There is so much power, I think that comes from really having domain expertise and really understanding the nuances of kind of the field you're going into. That if you don't talk to people in that field, you're certainly leaving money on the table. So I think a really good example of this comes with thinking about early stage startups. One of the most common types of compensation you'll get an early stage startup is stock or equity. And this is not compensation that you'll get necessarily. If you work at a nonprofit, you probably won't get it. If you work at a Fortune 500 company, maybe, and if you work at a larger tech company, you'll probably get it, but it'll look really different and it will have really different implications for your compensation. So as I thought, you know, as I went into my first role at an early stage startup, I talked to the best people, you know, in my life for, for negotiating advice, and those were My parents and uncles, some previous business mentors, and unfortunately, none of them really had startup experience. And so while they gave me really excellent advice, they helped me build up my confidence, they helped me make a case, they helped me not second guess myself and kind of move through some of my imposter syndrome. None of them understood sort of the nuts and bolts of what early stage startup equity meant. And so as a result, I just, I didn't ask for it. I didn't know that I should ask for it, that I should understand it, that I should figure out what it meant. And so that was kind of one of my key learnings behind starting $0.81 is that if you're not getting feedback from people who kind of represent the field you're going into or the field you want to go into, you're certainly missing out on opportunity to negotiate more. And I think that this is a problem that, I mean, I think it affects everyone, but I think it especially impacts underrepresented candidates who may not have really substantial networks in the fields that they're going into.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. Absolutely, yeah. Tell me what you think about this little analysis here. When I think about culture, we have a negotiation expert on our team who does trainings, Mark Davis. And the way he defines culture is really interesting. He says a simple way to think about it is just the way we do things. That is your culture. You can think about it as a macro sense, country to country, those type of things, but on a more micro sense, even within a company, there are different departments with different cultures. And when we think about the network that we have, there's going to be a culture within that network. Let's think about a negotiation culture within that network. If you're like, for example, at a nonprofit, the culture of negotiation, like you said, is going to be very different. But if you're A minority, and you're a first generation college student, Something like that. Your culture of negotiation is going to be very different. So if you come from a life of privilege, you are expected to do very well. Your family has a certain expectation for how much revenue you're supposed to bring in. And then you might say, hey, I got this salary. It's $150,000. And they might say, no, it's not. Oh, you need to do better. You better go back and ask. Right? But then if you're a first generation college student, $150,000 might be like three times the household income that you grew up in. And so the people might say, hey, are you. What, what's your salary? 150. Oh, my gosh, you better not do anything to mess that up. You said you were thinking about negotiating. They might get mad. Don't. Don't do that. And so the culture of negotiation is going to be very different, and it's going to have an impact on the way that you approach these difficult conversations.

You're totally right. And I heard so many stories from candidates of kind of those cultural differences showing up for them. You know, some candidates saying, yeah, I told my parents what I was being offered, and their jaw dropped because it was two times as much as they ever earned. And so when I told them I wanted to negotiate, they said, you better be careful. You don't want that taken away from you versus other people. If their whole network is earning significantly more than them, then suddenly they feel as if their 150k offer is low. And you know what it kind of reminds me of is that negotiation concept of anchoring, right? You, whoever your models are, whatever numbers you see, that's going to kind of inform how you are responding to something. So if your anchors, so to speak, are lower pay or a certain type of compensation, then that's what you're going to be focused on, versus if your anchors are higher or even just like representative of the type of compensation in that field or at that company or in that industry, then that's how you're going to think, interpret the offer.

Oh, this is great. And yes, I love the concept of anchoring. That was one of my favorite episodes in 2017 that we did just a full breakdown of the psychology of anchoring. Now that you break it down in that way, it's getting really interesting because it's like a meta anchoring. The anchor behind the anchor coming into a negotiation, the anchor is the aggressive request that we make at the beginning. Understanding that the other side Might negotiate it down. But then we have to think about the anchor that is already in our own minds, that informs the anchor that we decide to make or not make. Right. Which is really interesting.

Right. How are we anchoring ourselves? Or how is the way we grew up anchoring us before we even start interviewing for a job or start talking numbers?

Yeah, this is great. This is great. Now, let's say this. We know one path to get this, and people should take advantage of that. There's a link in the description. 81 cents essentially provides you with that network that you need to gather the data. Now, if people, let's say they don't have time or whatever it happens to be, they might say, how do I create these networking effects in my negotiations just organically by myself? What advice would you give? How do they start?

Totally. And the process we run at 81 cents. The reason why there's demand for our work is because people either don't have the network or they don't want to go out and ask their network, because it's really uncomfortable to talk about money, especially if you decide to pursue a network that looks a little bit different than your kind of core inner circle. But at the end of the day, you know, a lot of us do have access to people who are kind of representative of the right people to be talking to. And so if you're a totally extroverted person and that feels comfortable for you, by all means go out and try to build your own network or kind of harvest it in that way. And so what I would say in terms of how to do it is one, think about who the hiring manager is, or if you haven't started negotiating yet, think about the kinds of hiring managers you might be interviewing with. What sort of positions are these people in? What sort of work have they been doing? Are there people in your network who are kind of similar to these hiring managers? Can you go out and build relationships with those people, even if you're not necessarily applying to their company? Let's say you're an engineer and you'll be negotiating with an engineering manager. Can you talk to a few engineering managers in your network and try to understand how they think about hiring, what they're looking for, and then also how they think about compensation of the people on their team. That's one thing that can be really helpful. Another consideration is kind of think about what your network looks like. And I really do mean this in terms of age, gender, and race. So if you are a, you know, historically underrepresented candidate and you only talk to people who are underrepresented in the same kind of way you are, then chances are you're going to be sourcing skewed or biased information. So, you know, let's say you're a woman in tech, your product manager, and you talk to 10 other women who are also product managers. Awesome. You are finding people in your field. That is a huge win. However, you're talking to people who have been historically underpaid by, you know, close to 20%. So if you're getting numbers just from other women product managers, then you are probably getting numbers that might be lower than those that you would get if you talked to to male or people who identify differently in your field.

Yeah, this is great. And interestingly enough, even though your target market is comprised of women and minorities, historically marginalized minorities, but you're recognizing the value of diversity of your own, let's say, personal board of directors. I need to have diversity of thought because somebody who has had more privilege than me, they have a very interesting and very valuable perspective that they can offer in my professional pursuits as well.

Absolutely. I think both are super important. It's important to talk to people who've had similar experiences as yours, because at the end of the day, there is bias in this process and understanding how should I be thinking about navigating a negotiation as a woman, as a woman of color? That is important context to have. And then it is also important to have the context of how do people who look differently than me think about negotiating? What am I missing by not kind of pushing myself to get outside of my network either in terms of the advice I'm being given or something as straightforward as the numbers? I might be getting lower numbers if I'm talking to other people who have been excluded in the way I may have been.

Absolutely. If we extrapolate this idea of network effects in negotiation and apply it to other areas of the business world, we can see how there could be value there too, because you're learning from other people as well. So a lot of our clients are in the procurement world doing procurement negotiations. And I think about it in terms of, like, cross training. You know, you might have an athlete who plays tennis, but they get value from playing basketball. You know, the footwork is somewhat similar in the lateral movement. Okay, cool. So I'm going to do that. It's a fun way to change the way that I think and approach it, but it also improves my game in tennis. And so when it comes to the negotiation trainings that we've done, it's been cool to see how some strategies from different fields, different industries, can be applied to new industries to create new creative and innovative negotiation strategies, too. So it sounds like this same concept would be really valuable in other fields. So you can also get the benefit and improve your negotiation process and as you learn from other people.

Yes, totally. I love that sports analogy. I think that's a really great way of putting it. And, you know, it's hard to know what you're missing sometimes if you kind of stay in your small little bubble. And it can be really important to kind of push ourselves to move beyond that and kind of figure out what. What we might be missing, what we might not be thinking about, especially with something as emotional as a negotiation, too. It's such. When you're negotiating for your own compensation, I mean, that is loaded. This is your livelihood. It's how a lot of people are thinking about providing for their family, how people are thinking about paying down debt. There's a lot of. A lot of us tie our identity and our sense of value in ourselves to what we're paid, which is, you know, a whole other topic we could get into. But having people who are not in that with you in the same way and who may really not be as emotionally invested in you, I think can be really helpful for kind of bringing in a different sense of perspective and for just being a little bit more rational.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that ties really well with going back to what we discussed with confidence, too. Right. And I think we glossed over it as if it was understood. But for the listeners, again, I think it's important to revisit this understanding the value of confidence. Why? Is that a necessary part of the equation?

Yeah, I mean, it kind of gets back to, you know, how much leverage you feel you have in a negotiation. So if you approach a negotiation and you don't believe you deserve a seat at the table, or you don't think that you have kind of a right to ask for more. If you don't believe in yourself, you're gonna approach it from a position of fear. You know, you're gonna be timid, you're gonna be shy, you're gonna feel like they're doing you a favor. However, if you have a really strong sense of self, you know, if you're really solid in who you are and believe in your value and what you bring to the table, you're just gonna approach it really differently. It's not going to become something where you feel like you're begging them to give you more money or to give you that job, you're going to believe that you have a lot to bring to the table, and they'd be lucky to have you. And that just really is going to change the way you ask, the way you think about asking, even the way you interview. Right. You know, if you understand your worth and your value, you're going to talk about yourself differently. And it's just gonna kind of transform the whole process and the outcomes you see. And, you know, building confidence, it's one of those intangibles that it's just really hard to do because it gets really personal. It gets to, you know, what messages were you taught about yourself as a kid? What did society teach you and tell you, and what have your past experiences been? And, you know, unfortunately, I think when negotiation is one of the places where being confident pays off the most. But being confident isn't necessarily something you can do overnight. There aren't really. There are quick fixes, but they're band Aids, you know. And so I think probably one of the best things you could do to become a great negotiator would be to spend a year of your life just trying to be more confident. I think that that will ultimately, you know, pay dividends, like literal financial dividends, if you can spend the time kind of like working on yourself. And that doesn't necessarily even need to involve thinking about dollars or data or money or anything like that. It's really just, do you feel good in who you are, and do you believe in what you have to bring to the table?

Absolutely. One of the things that helps people to feel more confident is knowing what to say. You were telling me about a really cool program that you and your team have created, the script builder. Can you tell us about that, too?

Yes, definitely. So, you know, one of the things I think that can help with confidence, kind of apart from that inner work I mentioned, is just preparing, Giving yourself the time to sit down and think through how you want the negotiation to go. Giving yourself the time to talk to people in your network, not rushing this. And I know that can be tough to do when a company says, hey, we need to hear from you by end of day tomorrow, or we're going to take the offer away or whatever it is. But really giving yourself that time to work on it and prepare can be really helpful to the point of preparation. I think one of the most tactical things I recommend that I see make the most difference for candidates who are negotiating is building a script for themselves, basically thinking about, how do you want to position the ask, what are you going to ask for? And then what are you going to say if they push back? Or, you know, what are your worst fears about what the hiring manager or recruiter might say to you? And how are you going to respond if they say, we don't think you deserve more money or why should we pay you more? This is as good as the offer gets. Whatever you stay up late at night about, worrying about kind of outlining your answers to those. And as much. I spent three years telling people to write scripts and very often people wouldn't do it. To me, it's just so obvious that it's helpful. But it can often be hard to get started on these things even if we know that they're good for us. And so we basically built a tool to help candidates write the first draft of their negotiation script. And I would describe it as kind of Mad libs for negotiation, where we ask you a bunch of questions and then based on your answers, we generate a script for you. The idea is not that you should never read this script before you negotiate. The idea is we're trying to get you 80% of the way there. We're trying to get something down on paper for you and then you take it kind of the final 20% and make it your own. And it's been really awesome to see. We've had probably 100 people use it so far. And yeah, it's just been amazing to hear kind of what people, how people responded, how people have used it. Just people saying like, wow. Like, I just didn't realize I was supposed to frame my ask in that way or wow, even the questions you asked me made me realize I didn't understand all the parts of the competition compensation package or wow. It was so helpful being kind of given a first pass and then I was able to make it my own. It's been really cool to see get out in the world.

Oh, that's great. That is great. Jordan, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really enlightening and thank you for sharing this brand new Jordan Sale branded concept of network effects and negotiation. Before you go, can you let the listeners know again about the company and how they can get in touch with you?

Yes, definitely. So we are $0.81 and we provide salary negotiation support for underrepresented candidates. And as part of that, we've built this really amazing network of hiring managers and recruiters who are there to support candidates through tough negotiations. And that's because we really believe in this idea that you only negotiate as effectively as the people who give you advice on on how to do it. And so you can check us out at 81cents.com and yeah, I'd love to hear from you and thanks for the opportunity.

My pleasure. Thanks again for coming on. Really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.