Negotiation Skills to Overcome Bias with Mita Mallick - LinkedIn Live Event

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview insurance thing, too. And I have to turn on lawyer mode really quickly. Hey, can you help? Can you help? Can you help? Okay, I'm a lawyer. We'll sue.

Yeah, it's tough. Well, you have to understand the other party's motivations and what they might be withholding.

That's exactly, exactly. Which a lot of times is a lot. This is great. This is great, listeners. You know, we like to start off with idle banter that is so enticing and tantalizing. You're saying, oh, my gosh, what were they talking about? Yeah, he seems like such a nice guy.

Who's he suing?

But no, we're. We're back in and we have a crowd favorite. Meet a Malik. Thank you for coming.

Thank you so much. No, thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had to bring you back. Listen, besides the. The personal bias and affinity I have for you, we have to listen to the listeners. So the listeners say, we, we need you back. We have you back. And I, I apologize for the unintentional disrespect. I forgot your full name. Which is Wall Street Journal and best selling author Meeta Malik.

Highlight of my day. Thank you for being here. I'm such a fan of yours and everything you do. So, so delighted to be on your podcast and be here with you today in the audience. It's awesome.

Absolutely. Absolutely. This is great and I appreciate that. And I've been looking forward to this for a while. The whole team has actually. And this will be an opportunity for us to go deeper. Bag of tricks. Because you are an expert negotiator and I want to give you an opportunity to highlight that today.

Oh, gosh, where do we begin?

I don't know.

I don't know. Let me tell you this. We were talking about this in the green room. I don't know if I am an expert negotiator. I just know I've learned to play the game in corporate America. I've learned to play the game. I've learned to how to respond to different people, how to respond to the environment, how to read the room. Maybe that's all part of negotiation, but because of who I am, I have entered a world of work that wasn't built for someone who looked like me. Right. And so knowing that you have to operate differently and that's just the truth. So we're here to, we're here to spill the tea and tell the truth today.

Yes. And listeners, I don't want you to miss what just happened. I said, meet as an extrovert negotiator. And she said, I don't know if I'm an expert negotiator. And then listed off the, the skills of an expert negotiator.

Well, also, Kami, you know, I say this, talk about this in my book reimagine Inclusion. I don't believe there's experts in this world anymore. I just happen to have deep expertise. How can we be experts in a world that changes so quickly? I can't. And there's. Yeah, I have, I'm, I'm certainly a humble leader, but I also will say that, yeah, I have deep expertise, but who is an expert anymore in anything?

Yeah, no, I think, I think that's legit. I think about expertise being relative. So it's like, okay, cool, we have, there are different levels to this game. I, I know some things about medic. My wife, who's a doctor, knows way more. You know, so this is Great. Well, how about we start off this way? Mita, for those of you who. For those of the listeners who don't know you or are not familiar with your work, can you just give them a quick outline of who you are and what you do?

Yeah. I'm on a bold and unapologetic mission to make our workplaces more inclusive. I don't want my children, any of our children. I don't want the next generation to enter the world of work. I did. So that is my mission. I am a storyteller and a writer, which you teed up nicely for me. My book, reimagined inclusion debunking 13 myths to transform your workplace came out in October. It made the Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller list, which has been incredible. I'm a business leader. I'm the head of DE and I at Carta, and most importantly, I'm a mom to Jay, who's 11 going on 21, and Priya, who's eight going on 18. So I'm open to any unsolicited parenting tips and advice anyone wants to send my way.

Who is open to unsolicited parenting advice?

I am. I am, actually, I am. I'll listen to it. Doesn't mean I'll follow it.

That's fair.

That is, you never know what you're gonna hear. So that's a good point. Takes a village to raise children.

So that is true. That is true. And listeners, we are live here. So if you're listening after the fact, hey, maybe next time join the fun. Check this out. We're on linked. And then for those of you who are live, remember, ask questions because Simone is in the background picking out the questions. And we'll get to your questions toward the end. And I think a good place to start is just talking about negotiation and the difficult conversations that shaped your career. Because I think a lot of times people will look at you and they will say, okay, she's very successful. And they will assume you have high level skills, which you do. And then they might assume you have connections. I'm sure you do. But they, they wouldn't really put together the difficult convers conversations that had to happen behind the scenes through self advocacy and setting boundaries that really shaped and guided your career. So can you just give us an overview of what those looked like for you?

Well, I'll share the one, the story that I loved because, you know, you said to me you're rarely stumped on your own podcast. Is that correct? And. And you were stumped for a Minute. When I shared my story. Yes.

I didn't know what to do. Thanks for the production team to help me look good.

I want to unblock this with you because I think it's important. You know, I debunk 13 myths, and one of them has to do with pay. And the myth I talk about in the story is in reimagined inclusion, is, why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money. Let me repeat that for our audience. Why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money. True story. Years ago, I went to a former manager. At the time, I knew I was being paid less than my peers, paid less than the market, did the market research, had my points on the board, went during a time to ask for a pay review, which was during performance review time. I had done all the things that Kwame would tell me to do, right. And then I went in with a smile. And the response from this former manager was, mita, like your husband makes more than enough money. Why are you asking me for a raise? So the myth I'm trying to debunk that I want to get into is that there is a myth that white women and women of color don't negotiate. We often do negotiate. We're gaslit, we're dismissed, we're minimized. There's questions about why we should be asking for more. Shouldn't we be grateful we're the primary breadwinner? We're never going to leave. Our husband makes a lot of money. And so that was one of the first times among many where I thought to myself, wow, it doesn't actually matter how well I can negotiate. Sometimes the person on the other end isn't willing to write the check because of who I am and the biases they have about me when I show up for that conversation.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. There is so much here to stop you.

Again, did I.

Well, I'M trying to think about which way do we begin?

Yes.

And so let's. Let's think about this now. Let's say we're talking to somebody who finds themselves in a similar situation where they say, I came prepared. I have these negotiation strategies and tactics that work for other people, but for some reason for me, it is not working. And that can be really disempowering to people in the moment. And so for. Let's just start off with mindset. For somebody who has found themselves in that situation and didn't know exactly what to do, what can we do to encourage them to keep on trying?

I love that question. That wouldn't. That wasn't the first time or the last time that happened to me. Right. You might be looking at me now. She's a senior executive, Wall Street Journal bestseller. I still have people every day question my worth. And so you can either allow that to chip away at you or you have conviction of, I know what I'm worth. I know my genius, my talent, my expertise. This is that person's issue and their biases. I don't let that one person define you. Right. That's where the damage starts. If I actually had internalized what he said and I didn't, and that won't be the happened to me last week, like, it'll keep happening. Right. But you have to have conviction. And like, I know what I'm worth and so I am not willing to negotiate on that. I won't.

I think that's powerful. And so many people can relate to that because we could bring in the classic sports saying, that is so deep, you can't win them all. I used to hate that, but it's true. You. You really can't. And if there is anybody who is a negotiation expert or somebody who says that they're good at negotiat and they say, yeah, I win every negotiation. You have somebody who is also a liar as well, because it's just not. It is just not possible. Right. And so we have to recognize that resilience is part of this process, of course. And we talk so much about skills and tactics and everything, and then we can talk about how workplaces need to change. And in many ways they do. And all of those things can be true while at the same time recognizing that we have to bring that resilience to the table because we're living in a world that can and will break you down and beat you down if you let it. And so we have to recognize that it might not be fair. It Might not be our fault, but it's still our responsibility to advocate for ourselves and stand up and protect ourselves. Because many cases you're the only person who's going to do it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And my other piece of advice is once you decide like you know what your worth is, you're true in that you're, you're holding on to that. You're not going to let one person or several people over the course of your career redefine your worth and have you settle for less. You then have to also acknowledge that, okay, that person might have said no, but someone else is going to say yes. And it depends on what kind of negotiation it is. But I would say in a large corporation, if you're looking for a pay raise, yes, your boss holds a lot of power in that. But what about your boss's boss? What about someone on the exec team? What about your boss's peer? Are there other ways, which I have done successfully go to ask for other people for help to get what you have earned and you deserve in terms of your pay.

Love this. This just re reaffirms the fact that negotiation at the end of the day is a problem solving tool. So I could go to one person and I can say, yeah, this person holds the purse strings. I'm going to negotiate with them in order to improve my salary and advance my career. Then you recognize you have somebody who is not an advocate for you as you try to accomplish those goals. That's fine. All right, great. So I'm going to then shift this conversation to an information gathering endeavor. I'm going to gather as much information as I can possibly from you. Then I'm going to go back to my little lab, I'm going to think it through, create another strategy because maybe I'm not, I don't need to negotiate with you or renegotiate with you. I need to figure out who it is that I need to negotiate with and have that conversation that way. And that's another negotiation. And so you recognize that this, when you think about your career, more or less, it's, it's really nothing more than a never ending constellation of communication and conversation. You're constantly negotiating your way through your career and, and it's up to you to push forward and make it happen.

I, you know, that was one example of a boss who had clear bias, who would not give me the raise I had earned and deserved. But then I've also had bosses who I adored, who didn't actually have any power in the organization to Give me the raise. Isn't that interesting? So as I grew in my career, you also have to watch who. Who are the decision makers, who holds the power, who can write the check. And sometimes even if your boss is advocating for you, they, first of all, they might be advocating for you. They might not be well respected, well liked, they might not have power in the organization. Organization, they might have a title and that's it. But also maybe your boss can't advocate for themselves. So they're certainly not going to be able to advocate for you. So there's so many different layers to that. And that's why it's so important to find other champions in the organization who can help you when it comes to thinking about your pay.

That is such a good point. I didn't even think about that. So even if somebody likes you and wants you to win, they might not have the power to do so. And they might not even have the skills to advocate on your behalf in order to help you to do so.

It's true. And I entered corporate America like everyone who was at a higher level than me, they were gods, right? I thought they walked on water. And I was like, oh, my God, these, you know, they have this title, that title that doesn't always mean. And I'm just being real with you in the audience, it doesn't mean they have actually the power to give you the money you deserve. They might want to. They might like you, but me to might go into a room and no one actually cares what me to thinks, oh, ouch. But that is the reality. And the sooner you can recognize that, then you can start to pivot. And as you're saying, it's a problem solving exercise, trying to think about how else you can find another champion who can help you.

That is really good. I like that you mentioned. The sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can find solutions. So for somebody who's out here listening to this episode saying, all right, great, I want to learn how to negotiate my salary more effectively, when should I begin that process? How would you respond to that question now?

Because there's not one thing you're going to do for me, it was, okay. Do I have a clear understanding of the impact I've made in the organization? And for anyone listening today, it's either Google Sheet, Excel Sheet, a notebook, start writing your wins down. You have better. You better be writing your wins down every month. Right? I don't know what I had for breakfast yesterday. So I'm human. I don't remember all the things my team worked on. But I'm very grateful when they remind me that's our job, managing up advocating for ourselves. You have to know what you've accomplished, right? So in 2024, at the end of the year you're going to say, here are the, you know, five to ten ways I made really big impact. So that's important to have one second. Do you know what your role is worth in the marketplace? I have a podcast called Brown Table Talk with my good friend DC Marshall. I always joke I'm the client she can't get rid of. She used to be my executive coach. She used to say to me, mita, you always have your resume ready. You better interview once a year even if you're happy, because you've got to know what you're worth in the market. And then you have to read sort of the tea leaves of the organization. If you're doing performance review once a year, twice a year, that's likely the time you have to know when your company is going through comp review. It's possible they'll do off cycle increases and promotions, but likely if you're working at a large public company, they've got a system around this. So you have to strike when the iron is hot and you have to prepare yourself. I was not somebody when you started and you said, yes, you do have deep expertise in negotiations. I'm like, wow, I guess I do. I didn't early in my career I learned it. So you've also, you have to be able to practice how you're going to approach the conversation. You have to have your points, your script. And for me, those things took time. It didn't happen overnight.

What's so empowering about this is the fact that it's not, at least for me. And it sounds like for you it wasn't an innate talent where we were just born with this. It took time and iterations.

Well, also, like I talk about this in reimagined inclusion, I was culturally taught not to talk about money. So let's start there. I was told you never ask someone how much they make. You never talk about where we go on vacation and you know, know. Not that we went on these extravagant vacations, but you didn't talk about what car you drove. You never said you had a big house, small house. You don't talk about money. It's not appropriate. Okay, not polite, all of those things. You're not supposed to talk about money. But then I'm supposed to enter the workforce and fight for my money. Like, like culturally I'm not supposed to have money. And I also grew up proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. I grew up the. To trust the system. I don't trust the system. Can I tell you, Kwame, how many jobs I got where I accepted the offer? It wasn't until I met my husband who would say, why are you're not negotiating? I was like, no, this. This seems fair. And listen, I'm not saying it's not fair, but we owe ourselves. It's our career. No one's going to care about your career more than you. You have got to take the time to say, okay, yeah, I'm not saying. Let's not jump to the conclusion the offer is not fair, but do the due diligence to. Is it fair? Right. Talk to your friends, talk to your family, talk to your community. Like, how many of us actually share with our friends, like, how much we're making? And that's not to be bragging about how much we're making, but, like, how am I going to know if I don't ask for help? Yeah.

There's so many stories where somebody realizes, oh, I was content, I was happy. And then I accidentally found out what my underperforming colleague at the same level was making. And I said, wow, how is that possible? I've heard so many of those stories. And again, it goes back to the concept of fairness. How can you understand what's fair if you don't have a good understanding of benchmarking either? And so this is really important. And so, yes, research will get you part of the way there. Googling, doing that research, going to indeed and whatnot. But then there is that. That informal research that has to occur in order to figure out what's really happening in my situation. And you're right. Our. Our unwillingness to have those conversations can be. Can hold us back from getting the information we need to negotiate effectively on our behalf.

Absolutely. And I'm telling you, there's nothing like knowing that you're being paid even $1 less than somebody else who has the same experience, same degrees, education, whatever you're using to make sure that people are at the same level, being paid fairly and equitably. And you're like, I make a dollar less than this person. Like, why? Or like $10 or thousands. Right, Thousands. And you're like, that is really hard to bounce back from that trust that's lost between employee and employer. And then the feeling of, I don't feel valued. Right. You know, inclusion is. That's what I talk about. Inclusion. In the workplace, valued, recognized for my contributions, people care what I think. I was hired from my expertise, and I'm being paid fairly and equitably. It's a contract of trust. And when you find that trust has been broken, oh, that is hard to bounce back from unless the employer can make it correct pretty quickly. Right. Can make things right in that situation.

Yeah. And now let's say somebody says, you know what? I have been listening for 19 minutes and 21 seconds, and now I am inspired to actually say something and do something. I've never negotiated for myself, but I am afraid. I'm afraid because I'm afraid that if I advocate for myself, people won't like it. They won't like me anymore, and maybe I either lose the opportunity or the people who are really nice and friendly to me are no longer friendly to me. So what advice do you have for somebody who is going through that challenge mentally and emotionally?

Are you talking to my younger self? Yes. Yes. Wow. That's a powerful question. I'm going to keep it real with you. I will find someone else to negotiate and advocate for me, particularly if I feel that it won't be well received by my boss. And if I can make it seem like it was someone else's idea. Huh. Isn't that a great negotiating tactic? Meaning I've done this before, gone to an executive team where I knew one of the white men who was an ally for me. And he and I were chatting one day, and I asked him, you know, just want to get your advice, Kwame, on how do you think about your pay negotiation? You shared a whole bunch of tips because it's a topic you care about. And you shared a whole bunch of insights about your own career. And then you said to me, well, me, why are you asking me this question? Curious. And I say, well, you know, I'm struggling with thinking about my own pay. Here are the things I've discovered. Just wanting some advice and guidance. And if this person cares about you, they're likely going to say, huh, let me think about this. I'm going to come back to you. And if they're the person, when the doors are closed and people are talking about your career, and yes, friends, that's happening in corporate. Doors are closed and people are talking about your career. If he is in the room and he has access to the checkbook, decision making, let him negotiate for you. That's another tactic. And you know what? You shine, I shine. Leaders love to do that, right? Leaders do love to. That's their job. Too. But that's an interesting thing I discovered later on. I wish listen, someone. If someone's listening early in your career, go do that. If you don't feel like your boss is going to advocate for you or you don't feel like you'll represent yourself well enough, go talk to someone else you trust in the organization to help you think it through.

This is so powerful. So it reminds me about this concept called reactive devaluation. And I call it the just because you said it, I don't believe it bias. So essentially, in really contentious negotiations, you might be in a position where the other person, you have such a bad relationship that no matter what you say, they don't like it. So that's when they say, bring in a mediator. And so what we're doing is we're bringing that essentially that same strategic methodology and putting it here. And what I recognize, Mita, is that so many people would be afraid to do that because they say, oh, this is an indictment on myself. Because it shows I can't advocate. No, it shows that you're an ex, like an exceptional strategist, because sometimes the best person to negotiate for you is not you. And speaking as somebody who used to practice law, I can say yes. Sometimes I'm like, clients, please stop. Let me do this for you.

I am glad you broke down that SAT word that went over my head, but thank you for that term. I get it. But I will tell you, I could be honest as a woman of color building a career in corporate America, the way I negotiate versus perhaps my friend who's a white man, and the advice he gives me, it's. It can be received differently. Let's just be honest. So we have to learn to observe the environment and as you said, think about other negotiating tactics. And I love how you phrase it, other ways to problem solve. And that's the real conversation we have to have because we can sit here for the next two hours and give you all the negotiation tips. And here we have the person who has the most deep expertise I know on this topic. And it might not be well received because of how I look and who I am. It's just the reality. And we're not talking about that enough. And so that's why we need more allies in the work workplace. I say it's not the job of HR to make sure people are being paid fairly and equitably. It is the job of leaders. Right? So if you're a leader listening today, get off this LinkedIn Live. And either this afternoon or Tomorrow, go check to see if your team is being paid fairly, inequitably. With the help of HR and legal, you can do that. Why do I have to come and constantly be like, am I being paid fairly, inequitably? Can we. Can we look at my pay versus the market? Like, why is that burden on me?

I love this and I love that. We're getting some questions here. So we have a question on the screen. How can women best assess their value in the workplace to confidently negotiate a salary raise?

I love that question. We covered some of it. And I think it's. Again, you have to know what points you put on the board. What is your track record of success? You have to be able to clearly articulate that. What are the five ways in which you've made impact this year? You have to know that because that's the basis of why you're asking for a promotion or a raise. You also have to have an understanding of what your role is valued in the marketplace. And I don't just mean base, I mean benefits, I mean stock, I mean equity, all of those things. And part of how you'll do that is, as kwame said, indeed, LinkedIn. But also, if you're getting calls from recruiters, take the calls, because then you can get a sense of what the marketplace is and what the marketplace will bear. Also asking, you know, your friends, your colleagues, your community that you trust what they're making and what a role like this should be compensated. And then I think the third piece is, are you the best person to advocate for yourself, or do you understand the environment that your advocacy might not be well received in the relationship with this boss? And listen, I've had many bosses who have fought for pay increases, right? I've had situations where a boss was my advocate and they went to bat and they got me that increase that I deserved. But you have to be able to understand the relationship and decide who then is going to negotiate, you or someone else.

Great points. Love this. And I have another question here. If you rely on another advocate, could that hurt or negatively impact the relationship with you and your boss? What if they perceive this as going behind their back?

Excellent question. What I forgot to share in the story earlier was I said to this individual, Kwame, who was on the exec team, I said, you know, I've been having these conversations with my boss, and they haven't gone the way I expected. So is there something I could be doing differently? What advice do you have? And then that's when this person said, let Me, think about it. Come back to me with the research you've done. And in most times, if you have a trusting relationship with this individual, they're not gonna say that in front of a meeting and say, well, I know you wouldn't give me to a raise, so I'm here to fight for her. Right. It could be as easy as. I know we're looking at all of the directors in this division. I'd like to see if everyone's being paid fairly and equitably. Can we look at that? Can we, can we pull up all the directors right now? And they're going to pull me up and they're going to see there's a discrepancy. Right. So there's many ways to do it. And I think one of the things you raised this question is an important thing question is you want to share that you've already tried and it's not going the way you want, so you're asking for help.

This is really great. And it goes back to, again, the art of negotiation. Because in this example, in this situation, we are not advocating for not having difficult conversations or avoiding the negotiation. You're just changing the target of the negotiation. And in that negotiation, you have to negotiate in a way where you're not putting yourself in a vulnerable position, where you're saying, here's a really fiery email forward this.

No, you're problem solving. It's. You're reading the environment and trying to figure out the next best step. The other piece of advice I would give is don't underestimate the power of HR and HR business partners. If you don't know who your HR business partner is, I would certainly reach out to them and develop a relationship. HR is often in the room when these conversations are happening. So they can also be advocating. Listen, when it comes to negotiations, you want as many people as advocating for you as possible. So see, you know, you don't. You're not going to get 20, but if you get more than one, that's great.

Yes. And speak. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Two to three, like, and I'm talking about you're working at a company and these assessments are happening behind closed doors where they're assessing talent and they're looking at pay. You don't want just first of all, you want someone to say your name. If someone's not saying your name, that's another LinkedIn Live we got to do. But if you need at least a few people bringing up your name forward, Absolutely.

And also remember, Genevieve, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, let me know. It's. We have to think about how we are negotiating with the person that we're asking to negotiate on our behalf so you can set parameters. If we have concerns of, of safety or concerns that it might reflect poorly on you, just say, and these are my concerns. So as bring this up, please make sure you don't do it in a way that could reflect poorly on you. So just really want to make sure that you feel empowered, not just utilizing the strategy, but also advocating for yourself in the utilization of this strategy. You, you have more control when you explicitly state those things that you're concerned about and problem solve around them.

I love that. Great addition.

This is great. This is really, really great. Well, let me ask you this last question because I know we're coming up on time. If you have one additional piece of advice for people who are thinking about how to negotiate their salary effectively that we haven't touched on yet, what would that last piece be?

I'm going to say what I said before is you have to start today. This doesn't happen overnight. Whether it's building the confidence to have the conversation, getting the data points, the story, you have got to start today. And friends, it's a, it's a lifelong process. It doesn't end today. Like, we're constantly negotiating things, things in life, whether it's relationships, whether it's money, jobs, it's a, it's a constant life skill. So start today.

I love it. Mita, thank you so much for joining us again. Really appreciate it.

I want to come back anytime. Thank you.

Absolutely. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the network Negotiate Anything Team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.