Negotiation Strategies: Todd Caponi on Authenticity and Success

Hello my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Hey everybody. I know this is a bit of a different introduction to a podcast episode, but the conversation Todd and I had from the moment we jumped on the call was incredible. So give you an opportunity to hear some of our pre talk banter and then we just decided to flow into it so it's a more of an organic introduct. So give feedback, let me know, send us a message or leave a five star review even please leave a five star review and let us know whether or not you like this intro. This is you're donating your time here so I want to be respectful. So when you think about value add for this, as far as exposure and whatnot, what are some things you want to make sure we highlight well?

So I don't know if you have any background on what I teach about negotiating, but it is not traditional and so we'll have some fun with it. It's the most popular program that I teach and it's so you know, by way of background I've written a couple of books but my nerdery, my primary nerdery, is founded in transparency and I can take you through where that came From, But I was the chief revenue officer of a tech company here in Chicago. We were in the review space, meaning when you go online and you're buying a pair of Crocs or a sweater from Vineyard Vines, you look at the product, you scroll down, then there's reviews. We were the engine for that for a thousand retailers and brands, the collect. So the really wild part, though, so I'm CRO, right? I got a team just doing my thing. We did a research study with Northwestern University here in Chicago. Just looking at. All right, when a website's acting as a salesperson, what do people do? And so completely innocent, like, all right, let's look at the data.

Okay.

There was two data points that came out of it that changed my life. Like, could only happen to a nerd. The one that there was a data point that didn't, which is we all read reviews when we're buying something we haven't bought before. Right. So everybody does that. But the two data points that blew my mind, number one, was that 85% of us go to the negative reviews first. So we skip the fives and we read the fours, threes, twos and ones first. And then the other data point was that product, when the Top score is five stars, when the average review score is between a 4:2 and a 4:5, that range is actually optimal for purchase conversion.

Okay, optimal for purchasing.

Yeah. So optimal purchase conversion range is between a 42 and a 4 5. In other words, and that's for all product categories. Some skew higher, some skew lower. But the point being that we as human beings, when a website acting as a salesperson, we actually need the negative first. And we need the negative to be able to make a purchase. Like, we actually a product that's got nothing but perfect five star reviews, we're less likely to buy, which is crazy. And it actually slows down the process. So I looked at that and I'm like, why does that happen? Does that only happen on a website? Or does it happen in human to human or B2B selling? The answer was emphatically, it's the exact same thing. We as human beings, we're prediction machines. So we don't buy until we can predict. And so we need the negative to be able to process any of the positive. It's why we go to the negative first. And so as a result, I started looking at that and kind of experimenting with. When we go into sales engagements, let's start with helping the buyer predict by going, hey, Kwame, listen, I'm not all, like, we're not all things to all people. There's certain things about what you're looking to do that we're not the best at. And if those are going to be really important, let's get that on the table. Now, our core is this. We don't do this stuff. If you need this stuff, we're not going to be the best. Basically leading with what you give up to be great at your core. Magic happen. Sales cycle sped up. Win rates accelerated. We built trust. Instead of eroding it, we made it harder on our competitors. The message against us, we became Chicago's fastest growing tech company. And I was like, this is nuts. Like a lunatic. I quit my job and I wrote a book that I thought would suck because I'd never written a book before. And five years later, it's still like a bestseller if the book is done. There was this one. The transparency sale.

Yes.

Yeah. So I'm biased towards transparency and everything, but here's the negotiation rub. I also am a believer in cards face up transparent negotiating. And when we started doing this, we started discounting less. We are building trust to the goal line versus eroding it. Our deals became more predictable. And when customers stayed buy more or they left and went to another company, we had consistency around the framework of what our pricing was. It like it rose all boats. And so I've got a whole rant that we can talk about there, but it's. My approach is a little different.

Okay. All right, so what do you think about pulling an audible since we're just talking, you know, sports? So how about we do this? How about we just make this a super organic introduction to the podcast episode? We'll just start right now because I don't want to lose what you just said.

I did that. Great.

You know, so yeah, and just wait.

For my negotiation rant.

I love it. This is good, man. Let's flow. So, listeners, you were just dropped into the middle of the conversation. Now you know that we love football and we love the Buckeyes and the Bears. There you go. And so, Todd, how would you, you know, tell us about yourself and what you do and then we'll just flow from here.

Yeah, I don't know where this came from, but I've always been a nerd for behavioral science and, like, the science of decision making. I was kind of a mediocre sales rep growing up, but my jam was always leadership and coaching. And so a long time ago, I quit my job and I bought a sales training franchise and promptly ran that into the ground because I didn't know what I was doing. But I then got hired out back into I'm in the kind of the tech world. And so I had a buddy of mine who was VP of Sales of a company in the Valley in 2006. He was like, todd, quit doing that crap. Come here and help me rebuild the operations of this company and let's get it going. So I did. About 18 months later, he got fired. My CEO looked at me and was like, you're cheap and I think you could do the job. Let's promote you. And so I got promoted. I did some crazy things based on behavioral science and kind of turning around the company. We grew 400% year over year, a couple of years in a row, sold the business. I went to another company and then to another one. Had a few successes in leadership. And then like we talked about earlier, a couple years ago, actually it was 2018. I can't believe it's been that long. I got this idea, I wanted to share the ideas of transparency in the selling world. Wrote the Transparency Sale came out in 2018. It's caught fire. I now speak and teach about the concepts of it. The Transparent negotiating be the most popular program that I teach and speak about. And then this last year in 2022, I released the second book called the Transparent Sales Leader that takes a lot of those transparency concepts and applies them to just being a great leader. So that's my jam.

I love it. This is great. And listeners, as you can tell from the organic slide into this podcast, I'm pumped about this. I love the concept because I think transparency is needed when it comes to negotiation. I think it's often misunderstood and unfairly criticized. It's like, oh, I'm terrified of this. It's. Are you terrified of transparency or is this more of a lack of understanding of what it really means and how beneficial it could be strategically? So I'm pumped to jump into it. And just a quick aside too. When it comes to decision making, you might like this. I have this specific decision making matrix that I follow. For any online purchase decision, it has to have at least over 50 reviews. And all of the reviews need to be at least an average of four stars or more. And then I look at the bad ones. I'm like, what are the bad ones saying? If it's something, if it's consistent, like on Wednesday, this person works there and they're terrible. Like, oh, interesting. You know, you get some really good reviews from the negative because once it meets that Threshold good. I know it's good enough, but why is it bad? And am I willing to accept those risks?

That is exactly it. I mean the point of that whole concept is that we at a subconscious level know that perfection doesn't exist. Right? We know that. And if our brains are triggered to make a purchase decision by being able to predict, meaning I want to be able to predict, is this going to help me achieve the outcomes that I had hoped to achieve? Right. Whether it's a sweater or whether you're picking a restaurant to go to on a Thursday night, right? We'll go and we'll take a look and we're trying to predict. And to your point, like my wife and I were kind of old souls, right? Like when we go out to dinner, we're going at like 5 o', clock, we're not going on a Friday night at 7 o' clock. And we do the same thing. We'll read the reviews and you see the reviews that are like, ah, we went a Saturday night at 7:30, the service was terrible. We're like, but how is the food? Because that's what we care about. Because we're going to go Thursday at 4:30, right? Like exactly. That's what we're doing. And if every review is a perfect five star, we're going to look at that and go, somebody's lying. Not everybody could have a perfect experience. And as a result I can't trigger a prediction. And that's what we're going for.

Brilliant. I love it. This is amazing. And now let's talk about transparency. And I want to take a different entry point to this. Todd, we might have some fun with this. What is it that people most misunderstand about transparency in negotiation?

Well, let's talk the word transparency first. Transparency, to your point, is an overused word. It's often confused with the word authenticity. We put them in the same bucket. And authenticity is important. If I'm trying to predict and I want to trust you, if I can't get at who you really are and you're putting on a Persona, it's hard for me to trust the source by which my prediction information is coming from. So authenticity, yes, very important. Transparency though, I put into a different category. And transparency is essentially this idea of listen, it's cards face up here. I'll go on a side little rant here for a second. If you can see behind me, I have a second category of nerdery that drives my wife crazy. But like when cool people are doing cool things on the weekends, I'm reading late 1800s, early 1900s books and magazines on sales and sales management. So all of this stuff, I mean, I've got books here from 1916, like 1908. Like, that group up there is really all this telephone for anybody who's viewing this and not listening, is original 1908 Swedish American phone, original wiring. The bells ring. The thing is, the reason I say that history tends to repeat itself. So much of the foundational understanding of everything we do in the sailing world actually came from the late 1800s, early 1900s. But there's some quotes that I love from the history of sales, and I'm going to rattle off one of them for you right now. In 1921, there was a author named Arthur Dunn. He wrote a book called Scientific Selling and Advertising. It's like page six of the book. It's a blank page. It's got one sentence on it. And that one sentence is this quote that brings tears to my eyes in a happy way because it's foundational. And the quote is this. If the truth won't sell it, don't sell it. Right? So if the truth won't sell it, don't sell it. That is transparency. Aside from being authentic, Our role as salespeople is to help buyers predict. We don't buy when we're convinced, or if we do, we're probably angry about it 20 minutes later. We buy when we can predict, and our role is to help the buyers predict. I'm going to rattle off a second quote from you for you. This one from 1911 from another author. This one's Arthur Sheldon in the book the Art of Selling, and his quote is this. True salesmanship is the science of service. Grasp that thought firmly and never let go. True salesmanship is the science of service. Our profession as salespeople was designed to be a service profession. Meaning let's help buyers achieve optimal outcomes. Let's help them predict. Let's let them see potential outcomes that maybe they never thought possible. That is our role. And we can only do that through the truth, through honesty, through card space up, help them predict. Here's what we're giving up to be great at our core. Here's what we don't do. Well, if you're cool with that, you're going to love this. Here's our price model. If that's not what you were thinking, cool. Let's address that now versus waiting two months. Right? That is what I'm talking about in terms of transparency overall. And it is different than authenticity.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. So quick thing talking about people being prediction machines. Let me make a prediction here. So we're in. It's 2023. Let's go to 2323. There's a sales expert in the future saying, you know what I love to do? I love to quote books from the early 2000s. And there's this writer, his sales expert, his name is Todd Capone. And what he said about transparency was that transparency and authenticity are often misunderstood. And this is great, man, because I love the fact that you're a nerd like me and you love to deep into the history and understand how the commonalities of psychology through the years like those are some common principles. We haven't, we don't evolve fast enough for these basic things to change.

So how.

What are the truths from the early 1900, late 1800 that still app?

Hear.

Okay, there's something to that. Brilliant. And I love the fact that we are recognizing the distinction between authenticity and transparency. Because I think when we think about authenticity, we're just coming in and this is who I am we're focusing on like ourselves. But when we're talking about transparency, to me it sounds like it is what it is. These are the facts. This is everything that you need in order to make a good decision. And I think when it comes to persuasion, sales, negotiation, whatever it happens to be, is that we're okay with being persuaded based on the objective reality of the situation. But we are uncomfortable with what we would consider to be manipulation, which often involves restricting access to information that you need in order to make a good decision.

Exactly, exactly. I mean that's so from a historical perspective. It's funny, like if you scroll LinkedIn today, there's lots of posts, there's just like, oh, the world is changing, everything's so much different now. I would argue that most of the things that they think have changed have not. I'll find for almost every LinkedIn post I can quote somebody from the early 1900s essentially saying the same thing. But there's two things here. Number one is like, when I quit my job to write this book, there's a buddy of mine who was the president of a company and he's like, todd, you quit. Hey, come work here. I got this great job for you. Come do this. And I'm like, Andy, I gotta get these ideas out there. Like I care too much about this profession. And I think there's an opportunity to kind of, you know, get our mojo back in terms of being a respected profession like we were 100 years ago. And he's like, todd, just come here and do this and think of the stories you'll have. And I'm like, andy, this isn't a memoir. This has to be written right now. And the reason I say that is, you know, number one, I believe that, you know, there was a time where you could get away with hiding the facts, right? You know, and you sell something that somebody doesn't like, what are they going to do? Write you a letter? Call an 800 number? Like the blowhorn by which people can share their experiences has never been louder. And it's getting louder, right? That just that reviews conversation, you know, that's when we're buying something online as a consumer. But in the B2B world, gosh, the everything we buy, everything we experience, you can find reviews on just for anybody who's listening. And you work at a company, just go to Google and type in my company reviews and see what pops up. I just believe that it's our job to cultivate and curate that information and to help do the homework for the buyer. Right? And so that's part of this idea. On the negotiation side, I also believe that, you know, with the coming of AI, I believe eventually AI is going to start to expose our pricing models. And so when we talk about what hasn't changed, the thing that I believe has changed is A, the proliferation of information available, but B, this as a service or even subscription economy is different. So often these companies that buy stuff where you need the customer to stay, buy more and advocate, we're negotiating as though it's 1985 and it's a one time transaction and that transaction is the peak of the relationship. I believe what's truly changed in today's world is this idea that, gosh, the transaction is an early milestone on the path. The customers that stay buy more and advocate, it's no longer the peak and that we need to not erode trust via many of the negotiation techniques that are sought out by these organizations and instead build trust to the goal line. And that's where this transparent negotiation piece comes in.

This is great. I love that point. Transaction is the early milestone. I think that's a fantastic way of thinking about it, because if we think about that from a sales perspective or a negotiation perspective, it all comes down to the relationship. Wherever we are on the spectrum of negotiation or the transaction, there's a fundamental relationship that is there that matters. And we recognize too, even if we start to bring in that transactional aspect, we are going to benefit and be able to provide more value and then as a result, retain more value if we can retain that customer and have multiple transactions because of the trust.

Exactly, exactly. And so if you'd like, I can share the framework that I teach here, because I think that might make this all come together. Like, what are we talking about?

Yeah, absolutely.

So this all came from this idea that growing up in sales, for me, I always thought it was weird that I needed a different personality to negotiate than I did to sell. Right. The selling motion was about building trust and relationship and truly caring about the outcomes of my customer. And so you're building trust right to the goal line. The customer says, yes, and you're like, cool, all right, I'm going to start lying to you now. I'm not going to tell you what's good. And you know what? I cared about all your outcomes up until the word yes, and now I care about my out. Right. I was terrible at that. And so it was the year was 2008. I was the VP of Sales of this company that I, you know, I'd gotten promoted into, as we talked about earlier. And my rep is working on a big deal. And the procurement guy, this was a procurement deal. But this framework works with anybody. You know, it doesn't matter because it's transparent. It's the truth. The procurement guy was frustrated that every time he was asking the rep for anything, the rep was like, I gotta go call my manager. And so finally, the procurement guy is like, can you just get your manager on a plane? Get him down here. Let's get in a room and get this deal done. And so my rep calls me, I fly down there, we get into the room where I think it's going to be this procurement guy, but he brought his whole staff, the whole crew is in there. And so there's five of them sitting in a room. There's me, crappy negotiator, and then my rep. And so this kind of just came spraying out of me accidentally. And the results were magic. And I've cultivated it over the last 15 years, injected all the behavioral science. Here's the basis of what this sounds like. I walked in, I looked at these people, I was terrified, and I thought, hey, do you mind if I share what matters to us? Like what our pricing model's based on, what our whole company model is based on. And they're like, yeah, sure, whatever, dude. I shared four things that I call the four levers of negotiating. These are the four things that drive every for profit company in the world, by the way. So there's nothing unique and it should be easily applicable to everybody who's listening. I told them this, that we care about four things. Number one is how much you buy. So volume, right? The more you buy, the better, right? Of course. Buy more stuff from us, buy more products, services. More is better. Number two is the timing of cash or how fast you pay. Turns out we like money. The faster you pay us, the better it is for us. Right? That's good. Number three, the length of commitment, meaning the longer you commit to the stuff, our products, technology, services, the better it is for us, Tom. It's an important metric for our business. And then number four is the timing of the deal or our ability to predict when you're going to do this so that we can. And you know, we've got investors, we've got forecasts, we got to resource this, we got to invest in our business. Those are the four things. They looked at it and they're like, that's fascinating. We need 30% off. Now what do you do? Well, you could go down the route of, well, didn't we tell you about all the value? All right, that ship is sailed. Shut up. Right. Number two is play the ping pong approach, which a lot of companies do, where they're like, can't do 30, but I can do 10. Right. And then you start playing ping pong until you end up somewhere in the middle. Or you could use the levers, which is what I did, and this is where the magic happened, is to go, hey, remember those four things? Volume, timing of cash, length of commitment, timing of the deal. Let's use those as a path to see how close we can get. Right? Commit to more volume. We'll pay you in the form of a discount to commit to more. Right? Get those other divisions involved, make the deal bigger, pay us faster. We'll pay you in the form of a discount to. Instead of paying us every year for three Years. Pay the whole thing up front. That's valuable to us. It's something we're willing to pay you for in the form of a discount. Commit to a longer period of time. You're committing to one year, two years. There's value in our ability to predict. Extend that to three or four years. We'll pay you in the form of a discount to do that. And number four is the timing of the deal. There's value in our ability to predict our business. If we can mutually align around the timing of when you're going to do this, that's something we're willing to pay you for in the form of a discount. What happened was instead of it being haymakers, it was cards face up. Us working together and making trades based on four set things. Instead of playing ping pong, they ended up paying us all three years up front. They ended up helping us predict by aligning around timing. They got a little discount. We got cash up front, didn't have to go get another round of funding. We got a predictable deal. So we hit our targets and we could resource it and everybody was happy. And then when those additional divisions came in to buy, they had the cards already and they were coming and negotiating their own deal based on that structure. That's it, man. Four levers. Internalize them. You can use them for everything that comes up in that pricing, terms, negotiation, and builds trust, makes your deals more valuable and more predictable.

Todd, people need to know about this. We need to get you on a podcast or something.

Exactly. I'm spreading the good word as much as I can to companies. It's the most popular program that I teach. But I just think, especially in a subscription economy or an as a service economy, with AI coming, staring us down, I think we got to get ahead of having a consistent framework that we feel comfortable sharing and talking about. And you share it with everybody. Like, you don't have to wait till you're talking to the CFO or whatever. I'd share it with the receptionist at the front door, like, whatever. Like, hey, this is what our pricing's based on. Because again, the truth won't sell it. Don't sell it.

Incredible. And I think one of the beautiful things about this is the fact that you're giving people clarity on what matters most to you. I think we could all relate to situations where we've been in relationships of any kind and the person's unhappy and you're like, what do you need? I'm just not feeling good. Okay, what specifically do you need from me? Like, what do you want me to do? And it feels like we're just shooting without having a target. Will this help? And I realize that a lot of times negotiation can be frustrating because we're like this person. I can't get them to move, but I don't know what's important to them because they're not showing the cards. Then on the other side, we're trying to get the other person to move without giving them clarity on why we need them to move and how it helps us.

Yes. Yeah. And they can't predict, Right. The buyer can't predict what a good deal is. And so often we give away stuff for free. And that actually, ironically, slows down your deal and erodes their confidence in your pricing model. What I mean by that, for example, is let's say we're negotiating and I've proposed, you're going to pay us annual upfront net 30. And you come to me and you're like, hey, Todd, I need to pay monthly net 60. Now, the problem with the reps is the reps are like, I don't really care about either one of those. So that's fine. You could pay monthly and net six. Cool. Right? Now, you think you've just sped up your deal because you've given them what they want, but instead you've slowed it down because now they go, huh, that was like kicking over a rock and finding $20 under it. I'm going to go kick all the rocks over. Where are some more rocks I can kick? Right? You just open them up to tell them that the price isn't the price, the terms aren't the terms, and we've slowed it down instead of sped it up. Instead, when they say, hey, we want to Pay monthly net 60, you can walk back to the four levers and understand, like, why are they asking? Why is it important? Be a human being. But then go, hey, listen, as we talked about, our pricing is based on these four things, right? How much you buy, how fast you pay, how long you commit, when you sign. You know, one of those core elements that your pricing is based on is the timing of cash, which is upfront annual net 30. If you want to change that, you can, but we need to look at some other ways to account for that. Right? Commit to more, give us another year, help us predict our business, or pay to pay us lower. Right? That's the framework. You could use it for everything that comes up in your negotiation, and it just becomes simple. Cards face up to the point where in the future they can look at it and go, you know what? I got to pay slower, so what can I do? Or my CFO is asking us to sharpen the pencil. You give them the cards and you go, here, you guys can do it. Have fun, right? And get yourself out of it. Because the price is the price, and it's based on those things. There is flexibility in it, but it's completely transparent. Wow.

Now, okay, so I can't just be Kwame the Todd fan here. I got to push you a little bit here. Now, let me put on my. Let me put on my angry eyes here. Well, Todd, okay, this sounds nice and great and, you know, sunshine and unicorns and rainbows here, but I live in the real world. I deal with sharks. And so if I just come here and I lay down all my cards, somebody's going to take advantage of me. So how do I protect myself in this situation if I'm just telling them everything?

Well, I'll tell you, it's funny that that conversation is different for. Let's say you're a startup and you got. You've got like two customers, and the price really isn't the price. Like, there hasn't been any value established in the marketplace. You might get run over if you do that, right? You've got to have. But if you're a company, like some of these companies that ask me that, and they've got 5,000 customers that are all paying customers, right? Like to be able to say, hey, listen, those companies, here's the structure that they pay by, right? And this is what makes us a profitable, ongoing concern, and negotiate your own deal. And they're like, we got. We need more than that. All right, well, unfortunately, maybe we're not going to be the partner for you. Right. Because our prices are priced. And anything else is because again, like in the subscription economy, you know, you give a 10% discount. All right, couple grand, whatever it is. Yeah. That's your one year, one discount. But multiply that by how long they're going to be a customer to every dollar you give away in the form of a discount takes the form of charity to their bottom line and gets multiplied by however many years they're going to be a customer. We just can't do that anymore. And if you understand that, you can explain to a customer that, hey, listen, here it is. This is our pricing model. How about it? If you have any questions, give me a shout, right? It just, it becomes so much easier, and those types of issues go away very quickly. Now, I've had some really Difficult negotiations. I was negotiating with the head of procurement at GlaxoSmithKline on a multi million dollar deal. This lady was coming after me and I just, I stuck to my guns, right? I'm just like, listen, Marianne, the. Our pricing model is based on this, right? You want us to be around. Like this is if you need that discount or you need that termination provision or you need whatever that is, cool, you can have it. We just need to adjust something to make up for it and we're done. No, it's nice meeting you. Right? Like, that's the way it has to be. And that confidence begets confidence, that confidence becomes contagious. And these procurement organizations that we're talking to, they've never dealt with anything like this. They love it. They actually love it, first of all. But second of all, they don't know how to combat it or break it because it's not pervasive enough.

Yeah, this is great. And I think one of the things I would say, I'll quote a wise man quoting a wise man who said, if the truth won't sell it, then don't sell it.

Exactly.

And at the end of the day, not every deal is meant to be made. And we can get to that point a lot more effectively and efficiently by using this methodology. Because I think what would end up happening is there'd be a little bit of skepticism because most people aren't that honest and open and transparent. And so they might say, well, this is part of the persuasion process on his side. All right, great, so I'll play this, but I'm going to push in this type of way to see if I can break this model. But you in beforehand was what I'm assuming is that you're going through and you're making sure, hey, if I'm telling them that these are the four levers, for me, these are the four levers. We can be creative in everything, but at the core of the decision making process is going to be these four things. And once you keep on going back to that, then they start to say, all right, this is how we play the game. And you can become very clear, hey, based on what you need, numbers wise or time wise. And what we need, numbers wise and time wise. It doesn't work out. And no harm, no foul, it's not your fault, it's not my fault, it just doesn't work out. And you can feel a lot more confident in your position and the way that you're approaching it by just accepting that while still being as creative and proactive as possible, while at the same time recognizing that not all deals are meant to be made.

Exactly. I make a weird analogy, but, like, I don't know if you're a marathon runner. I'm not.

Do I look like a marathon runner?

I like. I run best when I'm chased, so. But you know, like, a marathon is an event, right? Like, you wake up, there's an event going on, but it's not like you wake up and you're like, you know, it's a beautiful day. People think marathons are cool. You know, I'm going to go put on my shoes and go, right, yeah, it's an event, but your toenails will be popping off by mile seven. Right. I look at the same thing in this, right? Like that example that I gave you of that 2008 negotiation. It was down in Houston. It was with a company called Schlumberger. That was an example of me showing up for a negotiation or for a marathon I hadn't trained for. My core here, when we think about transparency, is we've got to treat it like a marathon where it starts months ahead of time. That these levers are your levers and you share them. When you first talk about price, you make sure that they're clear when you propose a deal, that, hey, listen, this is your price, and it's based on this volume. Oh. And it's also based on net 30 annual upfront and a two year commitment. And then when the negotiation comes, that's when we typically introduce the fourth lever. Because you can't mutually align around time until you're closer to the end. But it becomes so much easier when it's something they've heard through that whole process, right? And there's a story I tell. There was a renewal that I did with a client. This client hated salespeople. For some reason, he liked me. And they were $120,000 a year client. And the renewal is coming up within a few weeks. I look at my phone and it's him, right? He's known me, got each other's phone number, right? I look and I'm like, ah, it's him. What's up? And he's like, todd, my renewal's coming up in three weeks. We're up against it. I. We can't be paying 120, you know, what's going on in the industry and whatever, we got to get that number down. And I'm like, harvey, how long have you known me? And he's like, is it the effing Levers again? I'm like, yeah, it's the levers. He's like, ah, remind me what they are, right? And so I took him through it, and he's like, I'll call you back. He calls me back. And he was like, hey, we're going to pay you upfront, annual instead of quarterly, like we've been. And we're going to do this renewal for three years instead of one year. Is that cool? I think I've got the math right. And I'm like, you got it. And he's like, all right, send over the paperwork. And I was like, all right, yeah, I'll have the account executive send over the paperwork and I'll talk to you in three years, you jerk. I didn't say that part. But the point being that, like, when we lay that foundation, right, customers remember it and they use it, and it becomes that foundational element. Like this guy Harvey, he remembers the levers, and I think I first talked to him about it eight years ago, right? So that. That's the thing. You've got to set that early. The other piece of that is, I'm also an advocate. There's a quote from the 1920s that I hate. One of these sales guys back here writes a quote that says, never share the price until the customer thinks it's more. And I'm like, no, no. I'm a believer in at least setting a range for a customer as early as possible. Right. The term sticker shock has never been associated with anything positive in the history of humankind. Right. Set a range that. Hey, listen, Kwame, based on my understanding of what you're trying to achieve, the investment's going to be between X and Y. And through this process, we're going to get a lot more specific. And if there's any curveballs, maybe I'm off. But I believe that's the range. If that's not what your expectation was, or we're way off, let's address that now versus later. Because if I'm talking to you about a six figure solution and you're a four figure buyer, one of us is in the wrong discussion. We better get out of it now or vice versa. So that makes a lot of that goal line craziness go away when you set the foundation early.

Brilliant. Oh, I love this. This is so good. And there's a lot that we can learn from it. I realize that a big part of this, because it's going to be outlined really well in your course and in your books, which I strongly encourage everybody to check out, we're going to put links in the description of this episode. We can continue our learning. But I think a lot of it's going to come from confidence and trusting the process, because it's that mental side. There's. It's that oftentimes it is that fear that holds us back from being transparent. And so once we start to practice this, we'll develop more confidence in our skills as negotiators, but more confidence in our more transparent negotiation process. So, Todd, I really appreciate this, and before you go, I want to give you another chance to let the listeners know about you again and how they can best get in touch with you.

Yeah, I mean, kind of everywhere. So I think that the best places, if you want to check out more, is just my website, which is Todd Capone dot com. Or you can follow or connect with me on LinkedIn. Just let me know that you heard me here on Kwame's podcast, and I would love to connect with you and help you through it.

Love it, Todd. Really appreciate this. Really great.

This is a blast, man. Anytime. We could do a version 2 if you want to. This is a blast.

Let's go. I love it. Yes. And I'll definitely take you up on that. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episode. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later. Todd. Say something again. Let me see.

Yep. It's good to. Good to meet you. Cool.

Now I can see you.

All right.

I can hear you. Perfect. Good to meet you, too, man. How was your weekend?

Let's see. Yesterday was my birthday, so I'll take that. So that's big.

Happy belated.

Thank you. Thank you. And the way I celebrated it was like painting a bedroom here. So not very.

Listen, if painting bedrooms is your thing, then it's not. We need to negotiate to figure out what the real birthday is going to be.

Work on that. That's fantastic.

Listen, dude, because I'm realizing, for me, I. I never used to celebrate birthdays. Other people would celebrate it for me. I'm like, man, what did I do? Just survive? It's a lot of people do that.

Yeah.

But then I started to realize, oh, no, this is a good time for celebration. So I'm trying to do a better job of it, too.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I probably should, then. I'm a Bears fan. And that didn't go well yesterday either.

So what was it the Colts?

Was it the Packers? Packers rolled right over.

Yes. I, I, that was, I'm not big into those two teams, but that surprised me. Was that a surprising result?

Yeah, absolutely. We thought the Bears, it's finally their time. Packers have rolled us eight times in a row, and it was like, here we go. We're going to finally. And then packers just rolled right over us again. So.

See, I don't, I don't like that because, Because Justin Fields is your quarterback, right?

Exactly.

He's a Buckeye. We're in, we're in Ohio, you know, so that's, I don't know. What do you, what do you make of him?

I think he's going to be good. I think, historically, if you look at the last three years, week one of the season, across the entire NFL, every offense sucks. Like, they just. Because, like, they don't like the preseason doesn't really mimic the. And so they get in there and they're like, holy cow, this is a lot faster than I'm used to. And then they just. So there was, There was a lot of that. I, I think we'll be fine, but not a good way to start, so.

Good. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I'm with you. I hope the best for him. He's got, he's like. He's a good dude and a great player, too.

Where in Ohio are you?

I'm in Columbus, man. Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

One of my biggest clients is in Columbus, so I'm nice often. So. Yeah.

Dude, you got to let me know next time you're in town. Well, hang.

Yeah. Yeah, that'd be fun. That'd be great.

Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, It's. It's, It's a cool city. It's. It's a city that is big, but doesn't feel big.

I love it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's beautiful. And so where I stay and I'm never going to remember what it's called, but there's, I mean, it's just, It's a cool little area that just kind of popped up out of nowhere, and it's amazing.

There's so many of those. Like, this area. This region is constantly growing.

Yeah.

We had our law school reunion last weekend, and people. People were coming in. They're like, this city is unrecognizable.

Like, what happened?

This is cool.

Yeah.

Yeah. Very cool. That's awesome. Where are you now?

I'm just outside of Chicago.

Oh, very cool. Oh, so you are like, a Bears. Bears fan. Geographically mandated.

Yeah, I think that's the right definition. Geographically mandated, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. I love football, and I just. You kind of gravitate towards your local team, so. Yeah, that's.

Makes sense.

That's it.

So. Yeah, even though it wasn't the start that we wanted, at least it wasn't as bad as the.

The.

The Giants.

Oh, yeah.

And the Bengals, too.

What happened there? I don't know. That was. Yeah.

So that was shocking.

Yeah.

That's not good for contract negotiations.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah, man.

Man.

Man. But what is good for contract negotiations is what happened with the Chiefs. You know, the guy who's sitting out, he's like, oh, well, you want me now?

Yeah, exactly. Exact. That's right.

This is great. Well, listen, I appreciate you.