Nonverbal Communication Mastery: Joe Navarro's In-Person Engagement Secrets

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Joe, thanks for joining us today.

It's my pleasure. I've waited because I know you stalk me online, so I've waited a long time for this. Me too. This is going to be fun. Agreed.

Agreed. So let's start off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. Thank you. So for 25 years I worked for the FBI, mostly working counterintelligence. So I was a spy catcher. And then 15 of those years I spent in this very small unit, this elite unit within the FBI called the Behavioral program. And that was created to take a look at spies and see how we can get into their heads and recruit them and negotiate with them. And after I retired from the FBI, I started writing books and never intended for that to happen. And now 14 books later, I'm here with you, buddy. I'm here with you.

I love it. And everybody, I have to say my favorite book from Joe is what everybody is thinking. And I know the listeners who have been listening for a while, they say, yes, Kwame, we know you talk about.

It all the time.

And I was just talking to Joe and saying, I was reviewing my notes recently on the book and it's 24 pages of notes, size 11 font and single space. So highly recommend checking out anything that is published by this man. And you have a new book coming out too, so can you tell us about that too?

Yeah. Thanks. So, you know, over the years people kept asking me, you know, you write about human behavior, you write about body language and non verbal communications. Why don't you write something that brings it all Together. And so I did. So I took a year and a half off to write. The book. Be Exceptional, which comes out June 29, is the encapsulation of about 35 years of study of what really sets individuals apart from and obviously that is their behavior, how they do things. And so it's a good way to take a look at the science that's out there and the artistry of how we can differentiate ourselves, how we can take control of ourselves and use the strategies, but in particular the behaviors that truly exceptional people all share. And that's something that I've been studying for a long time. So I'm excited for the book to come out.

Absolutely. Me too. And I think something that you'll see for the listeners, I'm going to constantly pull this back to negotiation, but what's going to happen is that you're going to see the commonalities of what it takes to be exceptional in whatever realm you happen to be in. And I think that's what's so exciting about this approach.

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Because I think someone said that if you're human, you're negotiating all the time. And I think you're right. I think that no day goes by that we are not parsing something in some way trying to gain or not necessarily an advantage, but to work something out. And so much of that has to do with communication. So much of that has to do. You know, we forget good manners is a non verbal, that talking to someone with kindness is a nonverbal. It's, you know, it's not the words, it's the manner. And so I think a lot of negotiation that we do day in, day out and you know, shall I tell them that story?

Yes, please do.

All right. So I can't say the country, but you know, people ask me all the time, well, you know, you're teaching, you come out and you teach negotiations and so forth. And your approach is a little different. I said it's no different than what you do every day, only the stakes are a little different. So one of the things that I was tasked to do when I was in the FBI Watch, which was to target individuals who were intelligence officers for other countries who are operating here, what the public calls spies, and to try and recruit them so that they would come and work for us. And so a lot of times, you know, I would run into these individuals here and there and sort of make myself known and so forth, but never really approached them directly because sometimes they were being followed or they themselves might take some action against me. So sometimes we would try and pick out where would be a great place to run into these individuals. And sometimes it was in what we call denied areas of the world. And those were areas where you knew that the minute you land, you may be under surveillance and so forth. So we would find places to run into these individuals. Now, you and I have talked about negotiations and planning and everything that, the preparation and so forth. But sometimes, you know, in one case, I only had seven minutes. I had seven minutes between the minute, you know, the moment that this. This individual's plane landed in a country, I won't say, and his connecting flight. And so I had to figure out, you know, through observation, which is what really a lot of the book is about, is what are his tendencies? How does he walk? You know, would it be best to just confront him directly? You know, by approaching him from the front, or as I finally did, by walking up beside him and sort of looking over at him and smiling and, you know, he had this look of surprise, but it's like, I can't even believe you're here, dude. It's like, just keep walking. Don't say any word. And meanwhile, I'm just walking like another passenger. And therein begins the negotiations. It was one of these things where I didn't have to say who I was. He knew at that moment finally who I was. And, you know, convince him, negotiate that I want to meet with you, if you will, but tell me where that might be possible. And the fact that he walked alongside of me, the fact that we never changed the pace, that he didn't confront me or anything. And sure enough, the next time we had that opportunity, he did it in a rather clear way. He knew I was nearby. And rather than take the gum that he was chewing and throwing it in the garbage can can, he took the gum and he wrapped it around a piece of paper and he laid it on the edge of the garbage bin. And that set the meeting for the eventual cooperation with me. And I look back at that and I think of the companies that I've helped with in negotiations and the planning, the articulation, the craftsmanship of, well, who's going to approach? Who will enter the room first? Who will be speaking when the lead negotiator is speaking? What is everybody else doing? Because are you just sitting there? Are you going to use your hands to gesture? Are you going to nod in agreement? Or are you going to sit directly in front of the other person in a stare contest, which I don't Recommend. And so a lot of, a lot of similarities. Obviously, you know, we're dealing with nation state actors, but the craftsmanship that you use is, is, is the same.

Yeah, this is fantastic. And again, this, what you've taped, what you've done is you've taken what we know about psych interaction and persuasion, and you've taken it to the next level by understanding human behavior in a way that puts you in a position where you can accomplish your goal, whatever the goal happens to be in that situation. And that's why it's so transferable, because you're using, using these skills in the highest of stakes interactions. Counterintelligence, spies, double agents, and those type of things. But the same psychology applies at the boardroom as well in these business negotiations.

Yeah, the same psychology. Now, keep in mind, a lot of times in negotiations, you're dealing with corporations and they have their own sort of mentality or history, but then you have the history or what I call the luggage of individuals. I was in negotiations down in Broward county, where these folks, the county and another entity are in every three years. They're in negotiations and they have so much luggage. And this is where unpacking that and understanding that we have to deal with that emotional luggage and we have to park it, you know, that the concept of, you know, put the ego aside, well, that's all said and good, but it's, it's not that easy that you have to understand the, the personalities and then how to best approach each other. And sometimes having the right person make the right presentation is going to be the surest winner rather than having somebody else doing it. So there's a lot that goes into it. Obviously, the more important the negotiation, the higher the stakes, the more effort that you can put into it.

Absolutely. And Joe, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest psychological mistakes that people make during negotiation? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to. To the show.

I love that question. Thank you. I think the biggest mistake is thinking that little things don't matter. Oh, if. If I could, you know, if I could, you know, say hello, McFly, these. Every little thing is important from the moment you walk in, how you set up the meeting, how you greet the staff, saying hello to the security guards, the receptionists, everything else, being attentive to others in the smallest of ways, being polite, shaking hands, being mindful not to elevate emotions. Something so simple you and I were talking recently about that we can increase face time with each other if we. But would just angle each other a little bit. Because to look at each other straight on is, in effect, very antagonizing. And the minute that we can just sort of, even if it's just rotating a little in the chair, we can just soften the mood, turn yielding, making it an art form that, you know, I'm going to let you speak, and I'm going to let you speak fully and completely, and then I. Hopefully you will yield, and then it'll be my turn. And these little things that, you know, I mean, I can tell you all the horror stories of people in negotiation and somebody's, you know, working their phone or somebody picking their ear, and you say, no, I can't believe I'm seeing this. And that's because nobody has told them that everything in the theater of negotiations matters. Everything. And, you know, from, you know, facial reactions, right? So we often talk about facial reactions and somebody will throw out a number and immediately you'll see the wrinkled nose and, you know, the shaking head, and right away, now you've got to deal not just with the possibility of a no, but you're dealing with someone who is demonstrating this, which makes it even more difficult because now you have to overcome this display and so forth. So it's that. I would say it's that recognition that the small things. I think most people in negotiations work the facts and work the. But, you know, I know in the FBI, we would literally rehearse, you know, how we would walk in, who would walk in first, where we would sit, who looks at whom, how are things transacted, who will say what words, all because, you know, in the theater of the interview or the theater of negotiations, it's the small things that. That really matter.

You're absolutely right. And I think that's one of the most interesting things about what you bring to the table with your expertise, too, really hammering home that reality. And I think about The. One of the classic sayings from chess is every move has a purpose. You don't just make moves for the sake of moving to the pieces. There's always a reason behind it.

Absolutely. For instance, when do we call recess? When do we ask for a break? When do we stop sitting down? I remember I was giving a lecture up north at a really prestigious university, and they were shocked when I said, well, why don't we just get up from the chair? And it's like, what? Yeah. Why do we have to remain sitting? Just get up from the chair. Put the chair in front of you, you still got the conference room there. And decide that you want to stand and talk about what you're passionate about. Why are you talking passionately about something sitting down? And it's how we orchestrate that. The use of the hands to explain to inv. To demark. That we're talking about one thing and that we have studied it carefully, dynamically, and that we have made a decision of how we're going to proceed. Just those gestures potentiate the message. Can you imagine if I had just said that with my hands on my lap, it would lose its meaning? And yet we know that when you use gestures and you combine it with, for instance, a certain cadence of speech that people just can't stop but listening to you. And that's a great way to reveal your commitment to what you're saying.

So everybody, now you have a reason to follow our YouTube page. So you can see Joe explaining with these gestures, because it's. This is going to. Maybe it doesn't sound silly, maybe this is the point, but it was almost hypnotic. Right? I was so in. I was so almost invested in what it is that you were saying. It certainly did have a much greater impact when you started to focus on the way that you were gesticulating.

Yeah, exactly. And one of the things that I found with exceptional speakers was their use of their hands. You know, I look at Colin Powell, who, you know, is really one of the great speakers out there. He's a great thinker, a thought leader, and obviously a great general and Secretary of State. And you look at how he used gestures to really powerfully message. And you know, throughout history we have seen great examples of that. And I find too many executives know the numbers, but don't know how to communicate that information powerfully. The fact that I can tell you that, look, this is our best offer now you're up against a wall and my thumbs are in a gravity defying position. This is it. There's no More movement here. I am not vacillating. I'm not in any way going to change my mind. That's it. That puts an end to the back and forth. You've reached that point where, say, guys, ladies and gentlemen, this is it. This is it. And that message of visual as well as vocal becomes much more powerful, and they have to react to it.

And it makes so much sense. Because when you think about everything as communication, we have our voice as communication, our demeanor as communication, our tone, our intonation, our body language, what we're wearing, all of those things are communicating a message.

Absolutely. The clothing that we wear, like you said, the gestures, something so simple as, you know, how I reach for something, right? So the person that's jittery versus the person that reaches for it smoothly, the higher we are, the more competent and confident we are in an organization, the smoother our gestures, the lower we are, the more tentative we are, the more jittery the gesture. So we would literally rehearse. All right, so now we've been at this for two and a half hours. I'm going to reach for that glass of water, and it's going to be smooth, and I'm going to drink it. Think of how many people have been criticized because they've been seen on the media, where they go to grab water and it's shaking. You know, I'm not going to name names, but, I mean, I've seen Silicon Valley Pie. I've seen, you know, heads of state doing this. Not realizing that that tell. That behavior is unsettling. And as I said, in the theater of negotiation, everything matters. Everything matters.

You know, what I started thinking, Joe, is I'm thinking about humans as animals. I think it becomes more interesting, even more interesting, if you think about us like animals. So we would watch Animal Planet, National Geographic, those type of things, and we're looking at the mannerisms of the animals. And this means that this means this. This is a dominance display. And then if you think about us as animals, we are animals, biologically speaking. And so we're going to be responding to the same cues that the animals out in the jungle would be as, well.

On point, on point. We are just another species. We are primates, right? And we respond to the alphas, we respond to the hierarchy displays. This is why we dress up. This is why instead of having a big pen in our pockets, we have the Mont Blanc or whatever, because we're sensitive to these things, but we're also sensitive to the gestures that come with higher status. So, you know, the higher status individual can engage in more eye contact. I have seen negotiators walk into a room and they're so daunted by it all that all they do is look straight ahead and never looking around, not realizing that they're limiting their ability to project confidence because they don't take the moment to look around and look at everybody present. And in essence, as we learned in law enforcement, I'm not scared of this room. I am confident in myself. Just eye gaze behavior. You know, the turn yielding that I spoke of. Even for instance, instead of saying, no, Kwame, go ahead, saying, kwame, go ahead, let's hear what you have to say. Whoa. I am now taking charge without you knowing that I'm taking charge by doing these gestures that are consistent with turn yielding. And yet all of a sudden I'm the invited guest and now I am capitalizing on those powerful behaviors. We are, as you said, we are just another species and we are sensitive to the smallest of things.

This is brilliant. And so one of the questions that I've gotten before when I was doing trainings, a young woman said, well, I'm a lawyer and I'm in these difficult conversations, these negotiations all the time. And I'm usually the youngest in the room, one of the few women in the room. And I am five feet tall. And so I'm significantly smaller physically smaller than the other people in the room. And like you said, Joe, there's an everything has an impact. And so people are going to perceive that size difference. So what can somebody who is smaller do to make it so that the discrepancy in size doesn't create some kind of power dynamic that doesn't work for them?

Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question. This is one that I'm often asked. And you know, one of the greatest example that I have is Mary Erdos, who is with J.P. morgan. You know, when you listen to Mary Erdos, you know, you think she's 6, 5. Well, you know, she's probably only about 5, 3, 5, 4, but it's how she carries herself. And so what I tell people is, yes, there is a height dividend, just as there's a beauty dividend, but we can compensate. And the first thing we can do is compensate by walking in with that presence where nothing and no one is off limits for you to look at, that you talk with, with, with confidence, but with a lord voice. Right? So this is, you know, in the military they, I know the Marines do this. They send you out into the field and they Say, find your military. You know, your marine voice and you know your, that gravelly sort of voice. And we had in law enforcement, I had to learn that lower voice because when we're nervous, you know, I don't want people to hear me say, stop, you're under arrest. Right? That, that's not going to turn out well for anybody. But you learn, you learn to, when you are under stress, that you're going to lower the voice and you say, stop right there. Do not move. And this is one of the things that I coach often is working on that voice that now, obviously you're not going to sound as deep as maybe a man's, but lowering the voice, people will listen. Speaking, especially for women, speaking in cadence, in other words, saying, I have a proposal. And that proposal is that we take into account everything that we've talked about thus far today, but also take into account everything from yesterday. The fact that you can talk in cadence means you're owning it. This is temporal. This is temporal dominance. It's like, I'm not going to hurry for you. I'm not going to go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just for you. There's going to be temporal dominance. And I'm going to own this minute how you sit. A lot of women tend to steeple and do hand gestures very low, elevating those and then making sure that nothing is said without there being some gestures. And what will happen is you will be perceived. If we then, and we've done this, if we then went throughout the room and said, how tall do you think she is? They're going to give, they're going to put five inches on you. Because it's a matter of perception. It's a matter of how you are perceived. And one last thing, and that is increase the vocabulary. Make sure that you have a more, not a dominant vocabulary, but a more robust vocabulary. Because one of the things that happens, our species, we humans, respond to whoever has that better vocabulary, and we will always be that way. And whether we're listening to a beautiful poet, whether we're listening to Churchill, you know, the eloquence, the sheer beauty of Martin Luther King, it's that command of words immediately elevates you. And, you know, as, as Wittgenstein said, the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And so you are self limiting if you have a limited vocabulary. So increasing the vocabulary so that you project that, that, that's, that would, that's, you know, that's pretty much what, what I teach that we can change we can change the perceptions. And you know, as you know, Kwame, a lot of this stuff, it's not about spending money on doing anything. It's about changing the behaviors. It's about changing what we do in that theater of the, of the interview. You know, you're up against somebody that's just being hard headed and so forth. Why are we still sitting here if this ball is not moving in any direction? Stand up, move around the room, change the dynamic to see if that helps to move the ball along.

I love this. And Joe, I have to let you know, you are the first person to quote Ludwig Wittgenstein, Wittgenstein on the podcast. So I appreciate that. My favorite quote from Wittgenstein is, if a lion could speak, you couldn't understand him. And it makes me think about some of the cultural differences that people can have in these difficult conversations and then what we could possibly do to overcome that and create connection and in spite of those differences.

Oh, very different when it comes to culture, you know, and in America, we have cultures within cultures within cultures. You can go from Manhattan to Brooklyn and have, you know, they're using different words, different concepts. You go to the Midwest and the west and so forth. I think this is, you know, and I appreciate this because this is one of the things that's covered in the book, is that we have to listen to the words that are used, that we have to understand those words. That if I, you know, Joe Navarro, who's now almost 70, you know, for me, I grew up using the word. You know, it's a problem. Now people say, well, it's an issue. No, it's a problem. And the fact that you are not receptive to my concept of this, we have to take each other into account and say, where's this? I mean, I have negotiated with people in France, in Romania, in the Middle east, in Latin America and so forth, and we have to have that understanding. And the best thing I have found is, you know, can you explain to me what you mean by this? Because I really want to understand where you're coming from. And just, I love to front my ignorance. I won't hesitate to let you know, just, you know, how clever I can be. But I don't mind fronting my ignorance and saying, gosh, you know, I've, I've never heard of that. What do you, what do you mean? Oh, I see. So. And then you. And what happens is when we, when we get others to explain to us things, they're becoming our cooperators. You're in essence, getting them to cooperate with you. It's kind of like, as you know, I know, you know, like Benjamin Franklin asking his enemies to do him a favor. And then they became best friends. And there's something about the psychology of it where I don't. I don't mind saying, you know, when you talk about equities, what do you. What do you mean? What do you mean by equities? Is it just what you own or the fat. You know, get them to explain things. And I think. I think, yeah, we do. Well, I think we have two responsibilities. One is to really understand what the other person is saying, you know, when they say, I hate this. Let's unpack that. And the second one is that we have to come across at times as very neutral so that we are perceived as someone who is at least reasonable and not obdurate and not contentious. So that's one of our responsibilities also.

This is great. This is really great. And. And one of the things. I want to take this all the way back to the beginning. This was something that you said about the book, be exceptional. And you're trying to figure out what sets people apart. And you settled on. Of all of the things under the sun, you settled on behaviors.

Powerful behaviors. Powerful behaviors that in studying individuals over four decades, because I was in this behavioral program in the FBI, that it all came down to behaviors. These individuals had mastery over their own behaviors. They weren't allowing things to get to them. They weren't blowing up and throwing a fit and so forth. Their behaviors were within that. Within that realm that others could respect. That doesn't mean they don't have a bad day, but that means that overwhelmingly they had mastery over themselves, that they were able to create an apprenticeship program, no matter how much adversity they faced. They created their own apprenticeship program, whether it was going to the library and reading books or calling people up and talking to them. But they created. You know, people talk about, oh, find your bliss. Well, you know, when Joseph Campbell, the great mythologist, talked in the Power of Myth, when he talked about finding your bliss, he wasn't saying, like, sit in a chair and it's going to come to you. He was talking about creating an apprenticeship where you could achieve that. And that takes all the behaviors. Focused dedication, you know, the will and so forth. And then the other behaviors had to do with this other area, which is, you know, negotiations. You're doing this the whole time, which is observing. Observing what are the needs, wants, and desires, but also what are their preferences. Right. You Have a negotiations and you know, all of a sudden you show up, you know, with donuts and coffee and, and you know, they only drink diet, you know, diet foods and tea. I've seen negotiation. You know, people just roll their eyes like, you know, I'm on a diet, buddy. You know, I don't want, I don't want to eat this. I mean, they literally look at you like, is this it? You know, so. And can we observe concerns and fears? You know, I was just interviewed yesterday for a magazine article and they said, you know, now that we're coming back to. A lot of us are coming back to work. I said, watch out. This concept of being able to perceive our preferences. You're going to have people that are going to be uncomfortable standing too close. You're going to have people that are going to be uncomfortable shaking hands too soon. You're going to have people uncomfortable because somebody's wearing a mask and somebody isn't. And we have to take responsibility for that and say, look, if success is measured by our ability to communicate with each other, we've got to create an environment where we have an appreciation for preferences. Because frankly, you know, I don't want somebody standing too close to me, not right now. And we have to be able to perceive that. And that requires observations. And then the one thing that no negotiator will tell you is what they fear. And yet that's in counterintelligence. That's always what we were looking for. What does this person fear? And when you can identify what that fear is, then you can appreciate somebody's final price point. You can appreciate somebody's decision schema and so forth. And you know, the other part of what exceptional people had was this ability to communicate. And, you know, they didn't have to be Churchill and they didn't have to be Lincoln. It was just, you know, do they have the ability to comfort and put an arm around you and show you love? There's a, there's a crossing guard not three blocks from here. And every day those kids go by and give this lady a hug. You're telling me that that isn't more powerful than words? Those kids live for that. And so we have to realize that words can only do so much that we as a species for at least 300 or 400,000 years communicated non verbally. We had to communicate silently because we were surrounded by predators. And so we had to move through the savannas, through the jungles quietly. But we had to do it effectively. And that's why non verbals still dominate. That's why they are so important even in this day and age. Age. And then of course, exceptional people, they act immediately, but also pro socially. And you don't realize the effect of that is. But imagine you go to a business and you got to go through security, then you got to go through receptionist, then you go through the personal assistant, and finally you get into the individual's office you want to see, you want to change things around. Meet the person that's important to you at the curbside. If you're a negotiator and you're waiting for them to arrive, right, what message are you setting? I meet them at the curbside. And now we're putting coins in that bank that says, you know what? But we have an opposite take. We have other, you know, we have responsibilities that may not come together, but I value you. And that's why I'm waiting out here waiting for you. And that changes the negotiations. What are they going to talk about? The break? God, that Joe Navarro, he was waiting for us down here. That's, that's really nice. No, nobody else does that. These small things, you know, believe me, in counterintelligence we use these techniques all the time because you've got no other leverage than to use these little powerful things that your grandmother or maybe a grandfather, you know, threw a ball at you or gave you a piece of candy. And that created this, this next area, which is the final area of the book, which is the power of creating psychological comfort. And when you have psychological comfort, you can achieve anything. Because humans gravitate towards psychological comfort. And whoever provides that is going to win. They're going to win. Because our species dislikes the noise, dislikes the animosity, dislikes the tension. And so we gravitate towards that person that provides it, whether or not we realize it or not. We like that in others and those that provided. And that's what exceptional people taught me, that it's not about how much you earn or anything like that. It's about how you treat others.

Joe, this is fantastic. Like I told you before, I've already pre ordered the book. I'm so excited for this. So before you go, when we think about the people in the audience, they're having these difficult conversations with their friends, their colleagues, their family members, they're negotiating high stakes deal. What is one thing that you would suggest that they do to start becoming exceptional at their craft?

Obviously there's thousands of things that I could say, but if there's one powerful thing, and it's the simple nonverbal is just simply sit next to them, tilt your head, can't your head slightly, which communicates. I may have an agenda, but I'm being receptive to you and query. Do a benign query. Tell me about what you're thinking, what drove you to this? What is behind this? Try to understand without imposing what you have to say. One of the things that I learned in dealing with other nation state actors is that they had reason to hate us. They had reason to not cooperate with us. But when I gave them the opportunity to vent or to let me understand their position and not immediately interpose myself, but to give it time, I found that that was a powerful elixir. And of all the things that I could talk about, I think this is one where, you know, we talk about active listening. Active listening, yeah, that's fine. That's 1980s stuff. I'm talking about benign curiosity. That benign curiosity is infinitely more powerful and it, and it's in its effects are so dramatically more, more demonstrable because benign curiosity is something that we rarely get and we treasure that.

Wow. I've never heard it described as benign curiosity. I think that's, that's, it's brilliant in its simplicity. And for you, when you think about the term benign curiosity, how are you conceptualizing that?

Well, something so simple as I get into a foreign city and you know, I get in a cab or whatever and you know, I may ask the person, you know, what, what is that on the. Oh, that's really cool. I may ask them, you know, I was born overseas. So to me, you know, nobody in Florida was born. This comes from Florida. Everybody in Florida is a, is from somewhere else. So I'm always asking folks, where's your family from? And I always get a positive response. Oh, really? Lebanese. I love Lebanese food. Best candy in the world. Best candy in the world. And you know, and they just, you know, and open up. But in negotiations, benign curiosity is a demonstrable attempt on my part to understand their position, to understand this is how we value it. What most people, where most people make the mistake is they immediately begin to challenge. No, I don't want to challenge. That will come. I want them to voice how they got to this place. And in doing so they may also reveal the weaknesses in their argument. Well, we consulted experts and you know, and we think that this is where it's the value point, where there's a lot to impact there. You know, it's like, well, I mean, that's fantastic. So you've been looking at this for years. Right. And you've been doing. And the more interested you are in their process, what you're building. In psychology, we call this transference and countertransference. We're at a deeper level, we're establishing a connection because I'm not challenging anything they say. I just want to understand as best I can where they're. They're coming from. Now, obviously, some, some people are going to be stoic and they're not going to reveal very much. And sometimes, you know, some negotiations, you know, it's, they're transactional and it's, it's like, okay, you know, the car dealer, he's going to hit me up for twelve hundred dollars because that's what the, this model car, on average, they're going to hit you up for. And that doesn't mean I'm not going to try and negotiate, but I, you know, I want to try to explore as much as I can about them. I want to explore the words that they use. You know, you said that you were troubled by this. What do you, what did you mean by troubled by it? Is it, is it like an external, is it internal? Is it, you know, is it something else? So I use that information to, to dig deeper. And the more they talk, the, the greater the, the connection that there is. As long as, and this is critical, you remain neutral. And it's benign curiosity, and that's different than active listening. Benign curiosity is taxing. I had. Well, you'll appreciate this because I know you read a lot of my stuff. I had a spy case one time where I had been interviewing this guy for hours. And when we got up at the break, my partner looks at my back and she says, did you spill a drink? And I go, why? She says, you have sweat from your belt line all the way to your shoulders. And I said, that's sweat that I earned my money that day. But that's where benign curiosity came in. Because the worst thing I could have done was challenge a suspect. But by being benignly curious, I got him to talk in ever more details and never interrupted him once. I would just. What do you mean? You know, what do you mean by that? And I think it's a very effective tool to use.

This is great, Joe. I love this. I appreciate this. Thank you for the contributions that you've made to the field over the years. And I am excited to promote this book. And hopefully we can chat again soon in the future.

I hope so. I think the work that you do is so great because I know you love knowledge and you share it, and I think that's the most magnificent thing that we can do. So thank you. Thank you for having me.

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