Overcoming Codependency: Lindsay Andrews on Building Self-Worth

Wow. I guess that's just my lot in life, right? Like, I guess this is just what I have to deal with. And so it wasn't until I started looking in the mirror and started and like I said, getting into my current role at my company did I fully understand, like, oh, wait a minute, like, what I'm doing is actually being detrimental to the relationships through my personal relationships, through my work relationships. And I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel trying to be somebody that ultimately I can never be happy with being because I didn't have that identity piece.

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Lindsay, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame. It's so good to be here with you.

Yes, it is. Good to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, no. Super excited to share a little bit about what I do. Really? I'm here today to talk about codependency. Codependency, recovery. It's a passion of mine. It is a passion because it's personal to me. So I have. I'm a recovering codependent, and I have been in recovery actively for six years. And so really, that awareness, that observation within myself about making some significant changes in my life has really prompted me to explore talking about it in a more public way and sharing thoughts and ideas about strategies, tools about how to help people who are struggling with codependency, how to kind of get through that. And so I do that through my podcast, Unstuck on youn. I do that through. I'm a speaker as well and a certified integrative trauma coach. And so I've really just been on a personal journey that has really sort of. I would say evolved into something that I'm really excited about sharing with other people who might be also struggling with it as well.

Incredible. And the work that you do, first of all, top notch. So everybody will link to all of Lindsay's work too. So check out the podcast and everything. And it's important not just because of your personal journey, but the profound impact positively you're having on other people who struggle in the same way. And I think another thing, especially for this audience that brings a lot more interest and intrigue into this combination is the fact that in your, the other work that you do, you're constantly having tough conversations day to day as well.

Yeah, I have a full time job, so obviously what I do with the podcast and the speaking engagements that I do, that's just passion that I'm moved into a business now. But at the same time, I still work full time for an architectural firm here in Columbia, Columbus, Ohio. And I do business development and I do marketing. And so my role is really to build relationships with a variety of different institutional clients, understanding what their needs are, putting teams in place in front of these clients so that we can win professional contracts for services. And so, yeah, and really it's kind of fascinating because I have been in this industry for 24 years now, and I have worked for architects and contractors over the years. But it's interesting. It wasn't until I landed at the current place that I'm at, it's a company called Design Group, that I truly felt I was in a really great culture. To see that some of the things that I was bringing from a codependency perspective weren't helpful. I mean, everyone that I was working with, there was a lot of transparency, there was a lot of mutual respect, there was a lot of collaboration going on. And I realized that some of the things that I sort of adopted in childhood, some strategies like people pleasing and lack of setting boundaries, some of those things that sometimes happened a lot of us struggle with, but I was bringing some of those things into this really healthy and amazing work environment. And I was, it was causing me to look at myself about, okay, how can I make some changes here? Because it's me that I need to be looking at and I need to be making some of these changes. So yeah, it was kind of a moment of discovery and self awareness.

Incredible. And as far as this podcast goes, I think a great place for us to start would be with the definition for codependency because I think a lot of times people may not have ever heard of this and then for those of you who have, you might not have a great understanding of it. So what is codependency?

Oh, that's such a great question. I feel like it's a very complex word and it has a lot of layers to it, I would say, distilled down to its essence. Codependency is the abandonment of self. So essentially, codependents seek identity in another person to feel safe or loved. Bottom line, that's basically what it's about. So a lot of times codependency starts in childhood. Almost all times it starts in childhood. And it comes from that child being involved in a variety of different family dynamics. So it could be like there could be someone in the family with a substance abuse problem. There could be someone in the family with a mental illness. And a lot of times when those sort of situations occur in the primary family environment, the family of origin enmeshment can occur. And a lack of role clarity and confusion around what sort of health the family looks like. Yeah, those kinds of dynamics. And I can kind of speak a little bit from my personal journey, but a lot of times maybe a child might be caregiving for an adult where there's maybe that child is maybe growing up a little bit too soon, kind of taking care of somebody else in the family. And so that's kind of where it can start. So when that emerges in childhood, it's like that's where we start learning about people pleasing and not wanting to upset a parent, trying to do good, to like, be in the good graces of parent or a primary caregiver. So. So it's kind of like in that process of sort of caregiving, the child has a hard time sort of getting to understand who they are as an individual and like really developing their own identity. I mean, that's what childhood's all about, right? Exploring, discovering, kind of having time for play and fun. So when that kind of dynamic happens in the family of origin makes it challenging for that child to kind of explore who they really are. And so sort of a lack of identity can happen as a result of it. And so a lack of esteem, lack of confidence, those kinds of things sort of, sort of, I would say, settling in right into that individual.

Wow, that was without a doubt the most thorough explanation I've ever heard.

Fantastic. That makes me happy. I'm glad it's always even for me, who has been in the space for so long. I even feel like it can be challenging to articulate exactly what it means. And sometimes it means, I mean, there's so many different layers of behaviors that can come out from being codependent. So that also makes it challenging to say, well, it could be this and it's this and it's this and this. I mean, you kind of look at the signs, you might come across a list of 20 signs that could make someone codependent.

Yes.

No, I was just kind of doing in my research too. It's like, what's the percentage of people in America who have codependency? And it's like there isn't any, like, hardcore research to really say how many people actually do. But there are experts that say that 90% of Americans have some codependent related behaviors, which I'm not surprised. I mean, you and I have talked about this before. I mean, we all have people pleasing. I mean, the majority of people have some aspect of people pleasing in them. Yeah, right.

For sure. For sure. For different reasons. Yeah. This is interesting because we can see how this can have an impact on us in terms of our personal life and personal relationships. And we also can see how it can have an impact on us in our business life and business relationships.

A hundred percent.

And so let's start just big picture in general with relationships in general. What impacts does codependency have on your relationships?

Well, I mean, I think ultimately there's sort of a core and primary feeling of the codependent needing safety and security. They need to feel safe and secure, to feel love. And so if they're not feeling that, they're going to attempt to do different things in an unhealthy way to sort of get that. A lot of times it can be finding a person, a partner, a spouse, whatever, that might actually be reminiscent of the caregiver themselves. So you're kind of like kind of playing out an old story in that old dynamic. So like, oh, that feels familiar. So that must be love, that must be acceptance. That must mean belonging. But in reality it's not. So it shows up in a lot of different ways. And I think that's, for me, one of the things I struggled with because I knew that my relationships weren't exactly what I wanted them to be. I felt really unsettled in a lot of my relationships. And I felt like I maybe I didn't fully belong to and feel connected to other people because I had this thing about me, right. Like that was just kind of off always. And so, yeah, I would say that the just feeling constantly unsettled about that. And so it wasn't until I started shifting my perspective about, I felt like my circumstances were almost like I was a victim. It was like, oh, this happened to me, right? Or this, I had this experience. Experience, right. And this is how that experience has manifested in my adult life, which it created all of these behaviors in me that are unhealthy. And so essentially I was like, wow, I guess that's just my lot in life, right? Like, I guess this is just what I have to deal with. And so it wasn't until I started looking in the mirror and sort of, and like I said, getting into my current role at my company did I fully understand, like, oh, wait a minute, like what I'm doing is actually being detrimental to the relationship. So through my personal relationships, through my work relationships, and I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel trying to be somebody that ultimately I can never be happy with being because I didn't have that identity piece.

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Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. That's powerful and it's clearly been a long journey and you're moving in the right direction and it's probably going to be a work in progress for everybody who struggles with this to a certain extent. And it's also, and you tell me what you think about this, it seems really both empowering and scary to recognize that you do have some level of control over the outcomes of your life by looking in the mirror, figuring out what you can do differently, and then pushing yourself to do those things. Even though it's tough.

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yep. It's very scary at times. I feel like, I think what I get inspired by is that I have great leaders and mentors in my organization that have helped model that behavior for me to see. Like, oh, like, this is what it means to have radical candor. This is what it means to have mutual respect. This is what it means when people disagree, agree about something, but they're still working towards finding like an overall, like, solution that's going to work for everyone. So I feel like having those mentors, those leaders, those people that are that. I mean, kudos to me too for making decisions to help surround myself with the right people to show me that way. But yeah, it's been really empowering to me and it maybe feels less scary because I know that I have those people that I can reach out to and talk to, just to kind of step into those spaces and to get uncomfortable. Right. So that we can see what the explore the edges of what our lives are supposed to be. So.

And also, you should take a little bit of responsibility or like a little bit of joy and, and pride in the fact that you have been intentional about surrounding yourself with these people. It didn't just happen accidentally. You know, just like flop into a cabbage patch full of great relationships. You intentionally started to connect and surround yourself with people who are uplifting and supportive. So it's. Yes, you have this support system, but that's because of you as well.

Yeah, no, and I've actually done a lot of self talk about that to be like, hey, because I think you talk about this a lot too. It's like we can get inside our heads. We can have imposter syndrome. We can tear ourselves down. Our thoughts are actually designed to keep us safe, even though they're not helpful at times. You know, we have to give them a job and tell them to step aside. And I think that that's probably step number one is understanding and recognizing that the thoughts are just thoughts. They aren't who we are. And so it's a very powerful revelation to kind of step in and understand that very foundational concept, but one that I don't feel like a lot of people get.

Absolutely. Because it takes a lot of deep introspection to figure that out. And a lot of times we need a nudge from somebody else or we need to kind of stumble upon that discovery ourselves. Because think about just how nuanced that is. Our thoughts are not. Our thoughts are not who we are.

Right.

They're just thoughts. Right. And also there's a difference between thoughts and truths. So just because I think it doesn't mean that it's true, but I still might believe something that's untrue and then act on that belief, regardless of its veracity.

Yes.

Right. And so when you start to tease this out, then you start to realize, wait a second. So I go through this world, I navigate the world thinking constantly, and some of those thoughts are completely illegitimate, but I've been navigating this world as if they are. And so now it feels like I need to let go of not just these thoughts that are unproductive, but it feels as though I'm letting go a part of myself. And that's got to be a really scary and difficult transition, because if that's not who I am, then who am I really?

Oh, yeah, I love that question. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the really important pieces to talking about codependency and recovery is having a mental health professional involved. And so you just talked about, well, when I take these thoughts away and now I can only have these. And like, what does this mean for me and who am I? I don't feel like someone who ha. Who suffers from codependency has the ability to see themselves clearly. And so it's really important to have someone that can and help you sort through what is real and what isn't. I know early in sort of my mental health journey, my therapist, it was kind of a joke. I'm like, wait, so I should actually do the opposite of what I'm thinking right now? And it was like. It was almost like it was like, funny. I'm like, wa minute, like I'm doing it wrong. And then I was like, well, what if I try it differently and I do it completely the other way than what I normally would do it? What would that look like? And it was kind of this, like, fun play experience of, like, what would happen if I did that? Totally different. And it's a really an effort in. Let's look at it in a completely different way. Let's look at it from the other side of the coin, other dimension that can really help us see things in a new light. And so that essentially was kind of. It was a joke. It was a fun exercise because I really felt like I knew what I was doing and how I was behaving wasn't helping me. And so I knew I needed to.

Do something different Right now. Let's talk about the difficult conversations that occur here, because I'm assuming that there is a different way that you navigate these conversations now totally compared to the past. What would you say is the biggest difference?

Oh, well, I think one of the things that it's a personal practice of mine, I started it six years ago where I do daily affirmations. And I know a lot of people do a lot of different daily practices. Right. It's kind of like it's a buffet out there in terms. But I think what sometimes is lacking is the consistency. And since the core aspect of my codependency is lack of worthiness. I Write every day, 21 times a day that I am worthy. And by the way, it's my birthday today, and it is. Thank you so much. But I did the math, and I'm going to probably allude to how old I am after this. But since for six years, I've been doing this every day, I have written down I am worthy 46,000 times. Wow. And so I share that because I do approach conversations differently, difficult conversations differently, but I now approach them from a perspective of already I am worthy, and I didn't have that before. And it's really hard to advocate for yourself and speak up for yourself when there's no perceived value or significance in yourself. I mean, how do you navigate difficult conversations? How do you negotiate on behalf of the company? How do you buy a car and, like, try to get a deal at the dealership? It's like, well, I've never done that before. I don't know what I'm doing. And somebody's probably better suited for that. So, yeah, I think that the worthiness piece is a really big deal. And so when I approached difficult conversations, it's kind of like, I still kind of take. And maybe this is just my personality, but I kind of take, like, a nerd approach. I document everything about the situation, and so I write everything down and try to stick to the facts about what kind of conversation do I want to have. Right? And it could be a very difficult one, maybe one where I felt, like, disrespected or something. And I'm like, oh, respect now, for me, is a lot different than it was before.

Before.

And I actually communicate if I've felt disrespected. And so that's an example of, like, okay, I need to go and say something about this, but I don't really want to, but okay. And so I'll just write down all of the facts. And for me and for codependents, it's a struggle because. And as you know, when we have. Or sort of brokered with the idea, broached with the idea of having a difficult conversation, we're so full of all those emotions, right? We're so, like, just lost in that. And so I attempt to remove the emotion as much as possible while I'm sort of doing my research and documenting how I want to approach the situation. And so when I say remove the emotion as much as possible, I still think it's important to bring empathy and humanity to the situation, for sure. I also think that sometimes there are strengths and codependency because codependence can have compassion for other people and can look at the other side of the coin. But the problem becomes when you're kind of looking at the other side too much and giving up yourself. And so you have to balance really getting that control back with yourself a little bit and start considering your own self. And then the last thing that I do is I really get curious. I get curious about why I'm feeling a certain way. Okay, let's say I was disrespected or I felt disrespected. Maybe that person wasn't intending to disrespect me, but I felt and I heard something that felt disrespecting. So I write down, why do I feel like that? Why? What about what was said, like what was activated within me? And so I try to. And I write a lot too. That's kind of the nerding out, because I'm a writer, so I write all this stuff down. And so really just to examine and get curious about what's going on inside that I need to understand about myself before I have this conversation. So those are. Those are a few things that I do to sort of get ready, if you will.

What a masterclass. This is incredible. The first and most important thing to say is, again, happy birthday.

Oh, thanks. It's a great day. I get to spend it with you.

Yes, yes, this is great. I appreciate this. And then secondly, really what we've recognized here is that this is a perfect example of mindset and skill set. That's what it takes to build a great negotiator, because you had to recognize it was the inner game that was lacking. And so now you recognize that the whole was worthiness. I am worthy as I am. Right. And so once you started to believe it, you started to navigate the world very differently. And then when it comes to the actual conversation, you took the time to prepare with intentionality. So you weren't just going into the conversation freestyling, hoping for the best. You're saying, all right, I'm going to think through this. What am I going to say? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? And focusing on the facts and recognizing that there's a difference between facts and feelings, although in the heat of the moment, they might feel the same. So it's important for you to take that time beforehand to prepare to distinguish between the two so you can communicate that with clarity. And I think what's so fascinating about this, and this is what I really want to hammer home to the listeners, is that you became a better negotiator, you became more assertive, and it did not really require you to learn any.

New cool negotiation technique.

Oh, no, Kwame.

That's what I love that this, because it makes it so accessible to everybody. If you can play that inner game and figure out what it is that you can do within yourself to build yourself up, and then you go into the conversation prepared, and then all you need to do is lead with curiosity and compassion. That is more than enough to get you through the conversations. And a lot of times when we overthink it, what we're doing is this is just another sneaky manifestation of fear. We don't want to address what the weird problem is. So I'm going to focus on collecting this bag full of skills that I will never be able to put into use effectively because I'm not solving for the right thing, trying to focus on these different skills. What should I do? What. What should I say? Instead of figuring out what is it inside of me that's holding me back from doing and saying what I need to say.

Well said. I love that summary. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's like, it did not happen overnight. It's a slow. I mean, it. It takes as long as you want it to take. Right. But for me, it was a very methodical, very intentional, focused effort to really unpack these pieces and understand who I am. But having that. That, like, belief about myself and my value now, it's like I'm a different person. And, I mean, there's kind of a righteousness, like a good righteousness about. I feel really powerful and strong and my ideas. And. And so I think that's. I guess, if anything, as I think about today in this conversation and what I want to leave people with, it's like codependency is just. I feel like it's. Again, it's just kind of this, like, it's like a sleeper behavioral pattern. Like, a lot of people are codependent, but it doesn't really get talked about that much. I don't feel like. And so it's like the more we can kind of like, I want to kind of be kind of a way of helping people and kind of realizing, like, hey, if you don't believe in yourself right now, if you do not feel like you have the worthiness to go and have difficult conversations, like, it is entirely possible to be able to do that, and you can build that skill, as you said, kind of build that on your own in a really cool way.

So, yeah, this is great. And Lindsay, I want to ask you just one last question. This is the most important question. Hypothetically, if somebody wanted to listen to a podcast about codependency, which podcast should they listen to?

You are so funny. Yes, I have my own podcast. It is called Unstuck on youn and it is available anywhere you listen to your podcast. So would love to have some new followers you can follow. Do the five star rating, all the things. But yeah, I mean, it's really geared toward bringing therapists, experts, other recovering codependents on the line just to better understand how we can navigate these complex issues so that we can really start building the relationship that our most important relationship with which is with ourselves. Yes.

So powerful. So powerful. Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Kwame, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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I'll catch you.