Overcoming Criticism and Self-Doubt in Business with Josh Hall

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Josh, good to see you man.

Man Kwame, what a pleasure. Dude, you came onto my podcast and absolutely rocked the ceiling off. So I hope I can give you something good in return here.

Listen, no doubt, no doubt. I'm pumped for this. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. So yeah, how about we start off by telling the listeners about yourself and what you do.

What I do is interesting now to describe because I think we just talked before we hit record about just online entrepreneurship in general. The reality is we do a lot of different things. So I found one of the hardest things is to just consolidate what we all do pretty succinctly. So now that I've digressed and thought about what I do, I I essentially am a web design business coach. So now I teach web design freelancers how to build a six figure business that gives them the freedom and lifestyle they love. That is what I do now. Previous to that though, I guess it really all stems back to when I was a cabinet maker for a tour bus Customizing shop here in Columbus, Ohio. And a metal drummer and a rock band at the same time. So I was like a weekend warrior during the weekends, playing shows and doing this cabinet job. And then I got laid off from that job. And I'd always had an interest in design. I'm sorry, Kwame, I'm just going right into the background. Is that cool?

Yes. This is great. No, listen, man, Flow, I did not know that background about you, so I'm fascinated too.

This is really cool.

It does provide some context, I think, for entrepreneurship because any background translates to entrepreneurship, I found. But yeah, long story short, I was a cabinet maker and drummer. And. And when I got laid off from that job, I had always had an interest in design. So I got into Photoshop and I just started doing graphic design work for my band. So I was creating T shirt designs and logos and CD artwork. We were playing a festival and the light bulb moment for me was when somebody asked how much I would charge to do their design work. And I was like, wow, I could make money at something I actually enjoy. So that's how I got into first graphic design. Then I kind of naturally made my way into website design. Started doing website design for real clients. Next thing I knew, I had a business and I became a full blown entrepreneur as a web designer. And then I scaled a web design agency for 10 years before selling it in 2020. And now I teach full time.

This is so cool.

First of all, like I said, I didn't know about your background as a cabinet maker and a drummer. I did not know that. That is incredible. And now it makes sense because I see the drumsticks in the back. Yeah, this is great.

Yeah, I don't have any cabinets I made though. I was not the best cabinet, but I was a very, very good drummer. You know what's funny? I've learned more recently there is power in creating a like me in a minute. I put this on my about page recently because when people ask you what you do, if you want to give them the layer back from just a quick answer, there's so much power in condensing the highlights of your story in less than a minute. So I don't know how long I did right there, probably over a minute. But I would, right off the bat, encourage everyone to come up with a me in a minute because you can put it on your about page, you can put it on social media, you can put it in your bio, say it in interviews like this. So I would encourage everyone to do that because I found it to be really handy laying some context into kind of who I am now and where I am now.

Absolutely. And it's almost like thinking about a superhero. You have your origin story. It makes sense how you got to where you are now. Right. It's like, okay, how does somebody go from a cabinet maker and a drummer to scaling a successful agency, selling it, and now teaching? It's an incredible story. But then when you put those things together, it makes everything that you say next become more persuasive because people are more bought into you. They like you more because there's a personal element to it, too. But then you can see that cohesion between the different elements of yourself, and it gives you a lot more trust and credibility.

That's a good point. I've never thought about framing it like an origin story, so that's genius, man. I love that. I'm totally going to take that and run with it.

Nice, man.

I love it. Well, listeners, in this episode, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about the difficult conversations that have to happen on your way to becoming a successful entrepreneur. And some of them will be obvious, and a lot of them will be not that obvious. And I think it's the ones that you don't see coming that can really hold you back. And so, Josh, let's just start in general. When you think about the tough conversations earlier on in your career that shaped your career, what comes to mind?

I was going to say, when I think of tough conversations, I usually think of an argument or a fight. But tough conversations can also be kind of funny and enlightening. The first big, tough conversation I had was in relation to my business card. So as I mentioned, I was a cabinet maker, drummer in a rock band, had no sense of business whatsoever. My family are not business people or entrepreneurs, so I didn't know what the heck I was doing. So when I created my first business card, I put there everything that I did. So I was doing MySpace pages, I was doing flyers, brochures. I was doing all these things in the world of design. And then at the very bottom, I also had drum lessons, because I was doing drum lessons on the side as well. So my first business card was my business name, which was called In Transit Studios, and on the back it said graphic design, website design, with everything I just talked about and drum lessons. And I just thought, these are all the things I'm doing right now, so I'll put it out there. And when I started getting real clients, I got a real construction client. And he was really cool. He was really funny, but he was like, dude, why do you have drum lessons on your business card? And I was like, oh, I'm just doing drum lessons too. So I just kind of viewed myself as like this media conglomerate company. I don't know. But it did make me have a harsh realization and a tough conversation about now, like, how do I solidify my services and start to hone in on what I do? And then, you know, like, I love cutting grass, but just because I can do it doesn't mean I should do it in the context of business. So, yeah, that was kind of my first tough conversation was like, oh, I need to figure out what I put on my car. How do I present myself and not put like drum lessons, which already shouldn't even be on the deliverable list with web design.

So this is a great example for so many reasons. First of which is that in order to be a good entrepreneur, you have to have humility and self awareness because we're going to get a lot of feedback. There's no such thing as a perfect entrepreneur or a perfect business. There are going to be mistakes that we make along the way, and sometimes it's just because we can't see it right, it made sense to you, but then seeing it from somebody else's perspective helped you to see it differently. So first you had that conversation with that person who helps you to see, all right, there's a different way. So you had to be receptive with, listen effectively and make that adjustment. But then internally, you have to have that difficult conversation as well, because it's like, okay, negotiating with myself, because tell me if I'm off on this part. Josh, there was still a part of you where drumming was a major part of your identity. And it almost felt like a betrayal of a part of you not to put that on something as meaningful as a business card.

Every time I talk with you, Kwame, it's like a half therapy session. I totally agree. I feel like if I could look back as to, like, honestly why I put that on there, I do think it was a bit of morph into a new identity. You nailed it. I was 100% a drummer. Like, my identity was a drummer. I was known as Josh the drummer. So when I became a designer and became an entrepreneur, yeah, I really ward with myself leaving that identity. And then, I mean, nobody knows me as a drummer now except for my daughters. Whenever I play my electric drum set downstairs, like now, I'm a very different Persona. But, yeah, I think it was a change of identity through all that. That's really interesting.

Yeah. And again, it's. We're going to have to have these difficult conversations in general, but again, internally, that's going to be one of the biggest ones. And we have to figure out what our ultimate goal is. And the thing is that in reality, you still are a drummer. It's just not the part of your public Persona as much. And so we have to be able to reconcile those differences within ourselves in order to have that clarity.

Yeah. And I do have that business card on my website, by the way, if anyone wants to go to Joshall Co businesscard, you are welcome to see it on print on the web.

That is awesome. I love it.

I love it. What are some other conversations that had an impact on your career?

Yeah, there were some difficult ones in the way of negative, but then there were some really good ones in the way of positive. Like, I remember that construction client. It was his partner who I met with very first time we met at Bob Evans, and we did this meeting. It was one of my first real meetings. So I was really nervous. But after that, I was doing a suite of brochure designs for him. He was like. I think he sent me an email and he said, josh, it seems like you're a great guy and you have a great head on your shoulders, and I feel like you're going to do great things with this. I think he knew I was really early on, and he gave me encouragement that has stuck with me still to this day, 14 years later. So I had some of the conversations that were really good in the way of positivity and encouragement, but at the same time, I had ones that were very negative and got me a little scared. For example, I remember I went to a networking event and there was a guy who I believe was a CPA or something like that. And we were talking, he said, what do you do? And I said, I'm a web designer. And he's like, who do you work for? And I was like, I work for myself. I started my own business. And he was like, wow, that's risky. And that statement of, wow, that's risky has never left me. Now I am somebody who I believe is a natural entrepreneur. Like, it comes natural to me to embrace risk and be an entrepreneur. I've never luckily struggled with that. But for somebody in the corporate world or somebody who is used to a salary or maybe has a different personality type, what doesn't seem to be a problem for me can be very hard and be a big hurdle for somebody else. So that was an interesting one because yes, it affected me. I was like, oh. I mean, I knew it was risky, but then when I came down to it I'm like, wow, should I take this risk? Thankfully I did and kept on going. But yeah, there were quite a few negative thought provoking conversations in the beginning that have definitely stuck with me.

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I love that example selfishly, because I've gone through a lot of those things too. Hearing people who are well intentioned but can kind of inject you with a little bit of their personal anxiety and that can be really challenging.

Yes, and I want to follow that up with a conversation I had with my dear mom. Hopefully she doesn't listen to this, but my mom one time early on she's a bit of a worrier and I'm her baby, so I'm sure it's natural. We're both parents, Kwame. We worry about the kids. I probably wouldn't say this, but when I started my business she was like Josh Are you afraid that websites are just going to end and people aren't going to need websites anymore? What are you going to do? She works at Nationwide Insurance and has a salary job and stuff. Yeah, she came at me with that question early on, which is like, what if people don't need this service anymore? What are you going to do? And I didn't have an answer. I was like, I don't have a plan B. I'm doing this right now. My eyes are set on growing this business. I think at that point I had started making halfway decent money to where I was supporting myself. But what that taught me early on is that all those negative conversations and opinions that people are throwing at me, I had to learn pretty early on to not internalize that. And I also learned that it's cool for people to have opinions. It's fine. Expect that. Expect family members to say stupid stuff and give you terrible business advice if they've never been a business owner. And just expect people to question you. Expect people to think you're crazy for doing something on your own as an entrepreneur. But it doesn't mean that you need to adopt what they're saying or what they're questioning. And I say that now on confidence. But early on, it took me years to realize that, because when I left that meeting with my mom, I'm sure she didn't mean for it to come across like that, but I was very worried after that. And I think that set me back a little bit, because now I'm thinking of plan B's, and now I'm thinking, oh, God, what if. What if this fails? Or, like, do I need to lower my prices? Just stay in business. Like all those things can come into play. Instead of just focusing on what you do, what you do well, what results you get, how you serve the world. One lesson I learned early on in those difficult conversations was to not internalize it and take it personally when it's just random opinions that they've likely not even thought about. It was just like, top of their head, like, oh, what have you failed?

So listen, this is so important because one of the things that I've recognized is that it's good to have people who care about you who offer advice. And at the same time, most of the people who offer advice are offering advice from their perspective and not really in consideration of your perspective. And so the way I think about it now is that these are things that I might want to consider so somebody will be very directive in the way they're saying things. Kwame you should do this, Josh. You should do that. And it's like, wow, that was really assertive. They might know something that I don't know. Confidence by itself can be really, really persuasive, but it takes a lot of self confidence to not be shaken by the perspectives of people who don't have a full understanding of where to go. Because sometimes. And listen, my mom is a warrior, too. I've had those exact same conversations with my mom. Right. And so I have to recognize, all right, I will acknowledge what you say. I'm going to listen, I'm going to be respectful, and then I'm going to think about it for a little bit, but then I'm going to make the decision that's best for me. And oftentimes, just entrepreneurially, it's very different from somebody else because of the reality of risk, like you said.

Yeah. And it's so funny and timely that we're recording this conversation right before Mother's Day. We did not time this out, by the way, but I don't know if our mom's going to hear this. But the family member thing, man, that is where a lot of the difficult conversations come from. It really is because I come from a family that has Italian heritage, and there's a lot of you shoulds in the conversations. It's like, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. I have had to really rein myself in to not do that. And as a coach, I need to be really careful to tell my students and come across in a way that's not like, you should do this. I try to give my insight in what I would do, but not telling somebody exactly what they should do. And yeah, when there's no context in there or there's no legitimacy for somebody who has never run a business, the reality is their opinions don't mean much at all. And that sounds kind of harsh and mean, but, like, is their opinion going to help you in the long run or should you focus your attention and your conversations and what you take to heart from people who are in the industry and maybe who have a better understanding? So I don't know. I hope that's helpful for people in the entrepreneurial world, because the reality is you are just going to get a ton of thoughts, a ton of opinions from people in your family, your friends, people with different money mindsets. That's a big one. They're like, how are you affording this? Or like, they're not going to understand maybe you paying somebody to do laundry or do Yard work because you're running your business kind of thing. I was in a point where I was growing my business in my young twenties when I was still partying, and I got to a place where my friends were going out on, like, Wednesday night at midnight, and I'm like, guys, I can't do this anymore. I got a meeting in the morning. And they didn't understand that. So, yeah, you get to a place as an entrepreneur where you got to be really careful with those tough conversations, what you take in. Because honestly, I would just try to avoid those conversations as much as possible. Or when somebody gives you a stupid opinion, it's like, thank you. Yeah, I'll think about it. Not going to think about it. You know what I mean? Like, I will definitely consider that. Nope, gone. I know you've had those conversations, too, right? Like, I really appreciate. I'll definitely consider that. Yeah, my nose is growing. I just lied. Yeah.

You see, I am dying laughing because I've had these exact same situations.

This is so validating because one of the things that people don't really appreciate with entrepreneurship is that you can be surrounded by people and feel really alone. Because in order to be a successful entrepreneur, you have to think differently. Like, going back to what you were saying about the money mindset. For example, people would say, you're going to pay X thousands of dollars to this person to do this thing that you have the skills to be able to do, save that money and do it. But they don't recognize the concept of investment and delegation. If I pay this person $5,000 to do XYZ, that gives me time and space to make 10,000, $20,000 doing something else. And I've had so many of these conversations with people, I am getting flashbacks to Christmas break. Josh.

I was losing my mind in the basement. I'm like, I need to avoid everybody here because I'm about to lose it.

Because again, you do this work to learn about how to be a successful entrepreneur. And then other people who don't have that background, they come in and they inject you with those opinions, and it runs almost exactly contrary to what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur. So you're right. You can't fully get rid of the relationship, but you can artfully get rid of the conversation by listening, saying, thank you, I'll consider it, and then moving on.

Well said, Kwame. Yeah, because then the worst thing you can do is engage them and be like, actually, I think it's a terrible idea. And here's why. I mean, you're setting yourself up for a lose, lose situation. Well, I know you're all about negotiation here, so it's like, don't set up a situation that is not going to end well for either party. Why were you. I'm curious. Call me. Like, why were you feeling that in the basement at Christmas time? Were you getting business advice and stuff? Or what made you feel.

Man, I just need to hope my family members are not listening to this.

But, yeah, we were talking about the value of time. I was super burnt out at the time, and I was saying, listen, like, there's a pro. There's something that needs to be cleaned or something that needs to be fixed. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm going to pay somebody to get it done. And they're like, why would you do that? Save that money? I'm like, for mental health. And the time I spend doing other things, that's time I'm not spending either resting, which is incredibly valuable, or thinking about business or working upon business. It's like the concept of opportunity cost was lost upon them. So it's like, all right, if I'm doing one thing, that means I'm not doing another thing. If I'm putting my money here, it means I'm not doing it here, Right? So just a simple concept. I'm choosing knowingly to buy my time back by paying somebody else to do this thing, and they want me to do this thing. First of all, it's my money and my time. Why do you care so much? And so I've had the longest and most frustrating conversations. And, Josh, for, like, months, literally months after that, I was revisiting this. I'm like, where did I go wrong in this conversation?

What did.

I should have said this. I should have said that. And then it just hit me. The problem was I was having the conversation. I was engaging in a conversation with somebody who did not know what it took to be a successful entrepreneur, and they didn't have the standing to bring in a legal term to even have an opinion on the issue. And so I was having a conversation with somebody who didn't have, like, the experience or knowledge to even competently speak on the topic.

Oh, this is so great, Kwame. Because as I'm thinking about this and as I'm visualizing this in my life today, I very rarely ever talk about business in person. It's always on my podcast or always in my web design community, or always with fellow entrepreneurs like yourself, who we're on a level playing field. We understand it's not that we're better than other people. They just don't have an understanding of what we do. Just like I would never try to talk levelly with you about being an attorney. I don't know anything about that. So when it comes to those conversations, it is really interesting why so many people have such strong opinions and ideas about business when they've never actually built a business. And when it comes into the money mindset and the time thing, that is a biggie. Because I think the reality is you just have to expect family and friends who are not entrepreneurs to just not understand. So 10 years ago, I would never, ever have guessed or expected that I would have paid $2,500 for a moving company to help my family move. Last year, when we did that, I didn't even have a doubt about that in my mind. I was like, ooh, only 2,500 bucks. Cool, let's go. Because I know how much freaking time it takes to move. And I have three young kids at that time, I had a pregnant wife. All my friends have babies. There's no way in hell I'm moving myself with that much stuff. That's going to take days, probably weeks of time to just be able to recoup from that. So 2,500 bucks for me was a very, very worthwhile investment in order to save me maybe a hundred hours altogether, probably. You know what I mean? Like, when you value your time as an entrepreneur, it's so different than somebody who might be in a salary position or the corporate world who's like, I can't imagine spending that when you could do it yourself. But for them, salary mindset is so different. So, yeah, a lot of those. To bring it back to conversations and difficult conversations. When you're in a place of a different mindset, it's really, really tough. So I was just like you said to say, hey, thanks for the opinion. I appreciate it. So you watch a game this weekend. Just do yourself a favor and save that conversation for the people who used to talk to about it.

Bingo. Exactly. Exactly. Well said, man. And let's talk about more, because you're married. You have a family. Me too. I remember when I started the American Negotiation Institute, Kai was just a few months old and having that conversation with Whitney saying, hey, you know, I'm a lawyer. I know. That's what I went to school for. And I want to stop practicing law and start this consulting company. Tough conversation.

Just had a kid. Perfect timing.

Perfect timing. Kids are free, right?

Not expensive at all. And so when you think back to.

The conversations you had with your spouse about entrepreneurship. What are some of the conversations that come to mind?

I'm very fortunate. My wife Emily is super, super supportive. I think it helps that when I met her, I was a couple years into my business. Now at that time I was only making like 20 grand, so I wasn't making much, but I basically doubled my income every year that we've been together. So the proof was in the pudding. We got to the point basically. And I say that I don't mean to sound speaking modestly here, but the proof was that, like, I'm on a really good trajectory and she trusted me with those decisions because she saw my business grow. So when I said the biggest conversation I think I had in that point was, I mean, there was a lot of little tough conversations. But the biggest one I remember is when I sold my web design business because I started doing core. Essentially. The long and short of that, I know I glossed over earlier, but I started teaching web design and doing tutorials on YouTube while I was building and scaling my web design business. And then I got to the point where I was making way more money selling courses and building my online entrepreneur personal brand than doing service work for my clients. And some of that was intentional because I was just spending more time building my personal brand. But it got to the point where I was like, oh my gosh, if I were to do this full time instead of just limiting to 2015 hours a week, I could 100% 2 or 3x the income I make with my courses. So at that point I told her I think like I have a pool to just stop doing websites for clients and go full time course creator and coach basically. And I was a little worried about how she would react because both of our lives are on the line. She is a stay at home mom. So I'm the sole income and we do not have families with money. So there it was up to me. And she said, I trust you. Sounds like a big decision. But she had seen my brand at joshhull co even grow in a couple short years to where the trust was there because the results were there, I guess is the succinct way to put it. It didn't make it easy to bring it up because we're like, well, this is a big change. This is huge. But luckily she was very, very supportive of that. That was one of the bigger ones. But I don't recall ever having like a tough one necessarily. I've never done anything to where she was like why are you doing this? There have been a couple conversations I remember where she kind of has helped reel me in because I'm very entrepreneurial and have ideas, as we all do as owners of the business. And you do need somebody who I had heard them termed as a balloon popper. I don't want to say she's a balloon popper, but you do need someone to be like, hold on, hold on. You're doing a lot. Like, let's focus on one thing and get this done first. So we've had some of those type of conversations. But yeah, man, having a wife, husband or partner you can trust and who sees the opportunity for you is huge.

That's great.

And it's great that you have that type of relationship that has that trust. And the thing that you kept going back to is that it wasn't just blind trust. She could actually look at the data and see that things were trending in the right direction and things like that. And I think one of the things about it, it sounds like you did a great job of including her in on that journey. So there weren't that many surprises where it wasn't something like, by the way, I sold my company last week. What?

Good point, good point. Well, but here's his is a really interesting point too, Kwame, because you also don't want to bring up a tough conversation. I feel like too early in the thought process because if I were to go to her and say, maybe I'll sell my company, but I have no plans, no ideas, no way to succinctly tell her what the vision is, that would have maybe led to a really tough conversation because then she might view me as maybe a little wishy washy or like, oh, are you, like, burned out? Like, what's going on here? But I had thought about it for a while and then came to her with like a pretty succinct plan of, like, I'm feeling led to do this. I've already made this much with the courses. Imagine if I had more time. I want to do these and these courses. I could expedite how fast I get these done. So there's a lesson there I learned with not presenting an idea in its infancy, because that could lead to a difficult conversation for sure.

Oh, man, I wish I had you as a guest. Like episode one. This is great, because that's something that I do. I'm just like you, entrepreneur. We have ideas all the time. And I'm not sure if this is you too, but the majority of my ideas are really Bad.

Well, here's the thing.

Just not that good.

They should be. But that's. This is a great point, too. It's like, and you'll hear this with like, writers rooms for shows and movies and stuff. They usually have some sort of board and anything goes, all ideas go. And you have to get out the bad before you come to the good. And sometimes a couple bad ideas might actually make a halfway decent idea. So I love that you talked about that, Kwame, because I think it's really important to know that your bad ideas are just fine. Like, have bad ideas, get them out, have a spreadsheet, have a wall of ideas. Whatever you need to do to get it out of your head. And be okay with bad ideas, that's fine. When we take our wives out to eat, I guarantee you don't nail the restaurant on the first try. Right. When your wife says, where should we go tonight? You're like, let's go to whatever. It's like restaurant number eight. That is like, oh. She's like, yes, that's the one. Let's get that. Let's do that one. The first seven terrible ideas, but eight great idea. So it's the same thing. It's the same thing in business.

This is a great example. And I think really what it comes down to, and this is a great way to tie it all back together too, is that we should still be having these conversations and we need to make sure we're having the right conversations with the right people. So if I have an entrepreneurial conversation, talking to you about it is great. If it's like a business idea, talking to like, you, Jay, Matt, like bouncing ideas off of our entrepreneurial friends is great. But I know for me now I realize that me coming home with all of these random ideas for Whitney, she is not interested in hearing them. And then it makes her wonder, like, is this man focused? Because I don't.

He brought up a lot of stuff in the last couple of months, none of it's happened and he's not talking about those things anymore.

And so I think it's like recognizing those people. And then when it comes to, like the advice as well, just recognizing if I need business advice, I'm not going to talk.

I'm not going to talk to my.

In laws over holiday break.

I'm going to talk to my other business friends.

Exactly. And you brought up that concept of like sharing ideas with trusted people. So when I met you last year, I shared with you and a couple of guys we were hanging out with, all entrepreneurs Trusted, proven folks about some book ideas that I have that I had started my book. Essentially, it's on hold right now as I get some of my products and services realigned before I start really doing that and pushing that. But I trusted sharing my ideas about my first book and the title and the concept, because, number one, you're an author and a proven author. And there's these other minds who had really good insight that made me think, like, oh, yeah, I remember what you said about the title, about reframing it to, like, a positive. And I was like, I didn't even think about that. Now, would my neighbor in the court tell me that if I told him I was writing a book? No. I guarantee he'd be like, you know, do you want to get on the New York Times bestseller list? I guarantee it would be something like that. Whereas, like, you guys gave me really good input on that. Yeah, man. What a great point.

Yeah. No, thank you. This is great, man. I love this. And I think for folks listening out there who are entrepreneurs, that this will be really helpful. And just in general, I think, again, the cool thing about difficult conversations is that we can take these general principles and apply it to somebody else.

Right.

And apply it to other aspects of our lives. I think about, for us as parents, there are a lot of people who.

Are not parents who say, you know.

What you should do? You should do this.

It's like, how?

Listen, respectfully, shut the hell up.

Never speak to me again.

Yeah. Isn't that a T shirt? Respectfully, shut the hell up. I'm sure it's a T shirt.

It needs to be. If it's not. And the person.

That's what you need to have under your sweater. Kwame, on like Christmas parties with your families is you just lift your sweater up.

Let's make it happen to me. Don't tempt me, because I would. I would do it. Oh, my gosh.

We'll make that shirt. We'll go 5050 on it. Yeah, let's do it. Can I share another serious, difficult conversation that happened last year? This one really affected me, in all honesty, and it was from somebody in my audience. So when I have a student or somebody I know and I know their business, I will listen to them if they give me insight about something they feel could be better. If it's a course or the way I'm marketing, then I will 100% listen to them when it is somebody who I don't know at all and doesn't have any context with me and just Comes at me a little bit aggressively, then naturally you've talked about this probably in almost every episode. You get defensive when it comes to conflict negotiation. So I got into the world of accessibility last year, which, in short, in the web design world, just means that you want to make sure websites are accessible to everybody. For blind people, disabled people, et cetera. It's like building a building. The quickest way I can sum up accessibility is like building a building and making sure you have a wheelchair ramp so somebody with a wheelchair and can get up there and not just steps. So when it comes to web design, you want to make sure your websites have those practices in place. Well, I had a podcast episode with somebody from a tool called accessibe, which is like a little overlay you can put on your websites. And when I featured them on my podcast, I got ripped by some web developers, and I had somebody who left a comment on the post and emailed me personally and said that they were really disappointed with companies that I was talking to and that I'm starting to, like, get in the door with unreputable companies. And I'm starting to. Basically, the long and short of it was it's clear that I'm like, getting affiliates just to make a buck kind of thing. And it did affect me because I heard a few different comments like that that world of accessibility is really poor, polarized, I found out. But it did kind of catch me off guard, I think, number one, because I don't usually get comments like that too often. My business is 100% helpful across all the content. Like, I'm not a polarizing personality. So it took me off guard. But it did make me realize this person and this is going to sound mean, but this person and their opinion just does not matter at all to me. Like, I don't know them, I don't know their context. They didn't come at me with, like, a nice context and sharing, like, why they think, like, if they were like, hey, Josh, I know you featured this company, but there's actually a lot going on. Here's why I would probably reconsider not doing that. I would have been like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even know that. Thanks, man, I appreciate it, but that's not the case. So I've had to learn as a course creator and an influencer. Now, I guess that audience in their opinions is a lot like family members and friends. You take it for what it is, but it's kind of the same motto, tying it back to the beginning. It's like, oh, thanks, I'll think about it. Nope, but it's. But that's different than a trusted student. And another quick story on that end is I had a student of mine who is a great entrepreneur. I've seen her build her web design business, and she messaged me or emailed me and said, hey, Josh, something you've been saying on your podcast just kind of rubs me the wrong way. And it's just kind of jarring with how sometimes you address women. And it caught me off guard because I was like, oh, shoot. First of all, I feel terrible. What did I say? Second of all, she came at the conversation with, like, a lot of grace and was like. She was like, I was nervous typing this. I hope it doesn't come across wrong. But I just wanted to share this insight. And I didn't even think about this or notice I was doing it. But when some women would come on the show, I would say, welcome to the show, my dear. Didn't even think about it. Didn't think it was condescending. Didn't even know where it came from. Probably sounded like I was from the 50s, whatever. Like, I didn't think anything about it. But as I thought about that, I was like, I could see how this conversation from my student who opened up about this and shared it, made me think, yeah, like, I'm going to listen to that. Because she has a good point. And even though I nothing negative by that, I could totally see how that might make a woman feel uncomfortable. Or it could probably be attributed to, like, being a power move. And of course, I'm not purposely making it a power move, but I've seen that when some people call me buddy. I don't know about you, but I hate when people call me buddy. So that kind of feels like they try to get one step above you. So I was like, maybe it's like that. Maybe when people call me buddy and I'm like, stop freaking call me buddy. Maybe it's like that if I call a gal a deer on my podcast and they're like, stop calling me your deer. I'm not your deer. So, yeah, I thought about that, and it was a difficult conversation because that one I did internalize because it was from a trusted source. So I changed that. I have never said, welcome to the podcast, my dear, since then. So, yeah, a couple different conversations from the perspective of having an audience member versus, like, a customer, a student.

Yeah, this is so insightful. I think a couple of things that we can pick up from this. First of all, Regardless of how entitled you might feel to your perspective and how legitimate it may or may not be, the approach still matters. And if somebody comes at you, if you try to approach somebody in a really aggressive way, then it's going to make it really difficult for them to fully appreciate what it is that you have to say. The content of the message gets lost because we get blinded by emotions. We feel attacked, so we feel the need to defend. But with the other example where your student came that message, first of all, there's a connection. So it's like, I'm going to be more receptive in general, but we say, hey, I'm just going to bring this to your attention. This is how it made me feel. I'm not going to assume malicious intent in what you're doing versus the other person, too. So I think we can learn a lot from that. I've had situations too, Josh, where I'm like, okay, now that we've shifted, because we always see ourselves as individuals. You're Josh, I'm Kwame. We're just people. But it's like, now other people look at us influencers. And then we have people who we don't know, who might see one thing out of context and come at us really aggressively. And that happened. It's really tough. And we have to figure out a way to see if there's any legitimacy in what the person's saying. And then also, if there is, make that adjustment. I remember specifically, you know, we're podcasters. We're obsessed with this reviews. I read every single.

I was just gonna ask you for negative reviews for your books.

Oh, yeah. Oh, I remember every single one of them. And I remember November 2017. I got one where the person said it was star rating. I remember all of them, Josh. The person said, yeah, the content's okay, but it seems like it's a bit of a boys club. It doesn't seem like there are many women who are coming on the show. And then I thought about it, like, the selection bias. Just as a guy, I tend to hang out with more guys. And the show was small. I didn't feel like I had the standing to reach out to people that I didn't know. And so I would be talking to one of my friends. Hey, you want to come on the podcast? Sure. So I would do the same thing with my friends who are women, but there was just fewer of them after that. I said, okay, first of all, two star review.

Harsh.

Second of all, you're right, though.

I'm going to make some changes.

So now we make sure that we keep track of those metrics. Okay, so gender wise, do we have good diversity there? Even racial diversity, too? One of my if for the listeners who don't know and you can't tell from my voice, I am black, but I remember one of my guests who was also black and said, hey, you know what? Interesting thing, I've noticed that in the past few months there hasn't been that much racial diversity. Thought that was interesting. I live in Columbus, Ohio, majority white city. And as a lawyer, majority white profession started to shift in that area just because of the ease of acquisition of guests. And so sometimes people from the outside can have a much more like a different perspective that we can't see ourselves. And it can be really useful. But we also have to be really discerning sometimes because if you start to absorb the opinions of everybody, it will lead to serious problems.

Great point. Yeah, I think you hit the term nail on the head right there, Kwame, which is discernment. And it's a lot easier to take in insight and opinions and thoughts from people who are trusted and like minded versus people who you don't know or in case of like, family members who you do know but you don't trust with their opinions on business, you do have to be very discerning. And going back to like, what my mom said about the plan B thing, there's definitely good reason to have some sort of maybe a fallback plan or have some ideas in the back of your mind. But it was the pressure to prioritize failure that I had to learn to avoid. Like, I'm not going to start a business thinking I'm going to fail and I need a nice plan B because. No, you want to put your emphasis on plan A and go for it. So, yeah, I totally agree. You have to discern. You have to have some discernment on those thoughts on what you take in and in what you internalize, for sure. Ooh. Good stuff, man. Absolutely.

Thank you. I appreciate it. This was really great. And I think, like I said, I think a lot of folks will get a lot out of this. And I know we're coming up on time here, but I want to make sure to give you an opportunity to shout out the courses and some of the communities that you're building and let people know how they can get in touch with you. And about the podcast, make sure you shout out your pod.

Oh, yeah, I was going to say, I think one of the best resources for all podcast listeners would be my show The Web Design Business podcast. And it is just that it's the business side of web design. So I think even if you're not into web design in particular, it's really branching out even more into online marketing and online entrepreneurship. So yeah, a lot of episodes there that I think will be a good fit. And trying to remember Kwame. I'm sure we could link this, but I forget what number you were when you were on my show. Let me look that up real quick because, man, you came on and talked about negotiation in the web design world when it came to like sales. And we did like a bit of a mock up conversation essentially. Like Kwame, you were the web designer, I was the client questioning. And what you said in that little 10 minute segment still gets talked about from my audience. That was episode 231 of the Web Design Business podcast, if anyone's curious. What a great convo. But yeah, you can follow me over there. And then my website is joshhall Co and that's got all the stuff if you want to connect with me or see what I'm up to with courses and everything.

Perfect.

Love it.

Thank you. And we will link to that episode in the description. Josh, really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the show.

I feel like we just got started, man. Shoot. I feel bummed that we're gonna have to end it, but hopefully we can do a round two again. Man, I always love chatting with you, Kwame.

Likewise. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights, giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients. And I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of.

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Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.

Kwame. Hey. Hey.

Well, look at that.

Both in red. It's. I mean, great minds, man. What can we say?

I love it.

I wore my OSU shirt just for you, Kwame.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

That's.

That's really nice. I. It's. It's nice to, you know, talk to somebody else in Buckeye country. Every. Every time I go somewhere else, it's always hostile.

Yeah, well, I'm more of a hockey guy. I'm a big time Blue Jackets fan. But of course, you know, of course my heart says Buckeye as well.

Absolutely. I took Kai to his first Blue Jackets game a couple like. Like a month or so ago, man.

Oh, did you?

Loved it.

What did they win? Was it good? Like, goals and stuff?

They did okay. I know, I know it was a rough season, but they were. Yeah, it was. It was an overtime game.

We won an overtime.

Oh, man, it's so much fun. I. Yeah, I didn't give a crap about hockey until I went to the game the first time they made the playoffs and I was sold, man. That's. I mean, it hooked me right away. Yeah.

Dude, I've been to like, what, like, three games now. You can't have a bad time at that game at those games.

That's true. Even if they lose, like, you're out of the elements. There's like, they do so good with the. The in game entertainment, and kids love it, so. Yeah. Especially for the Littles. And I mean. Yeah, I've. We've gone through different seasons of life now, and it's just awesome. So. Yeah, I'm glad you guys recently checked it out and you got to have some fun.

Yeah, man. How's the family? How's everybody doing?

Doing good, man. My little guy's six months old now, so we're just. I'm doing a lot of managing as much business as I can while managing 305, so. Pretty wild.

Wow.

Oh, my gosh.

You are. You're. You're a stronger man than me, man.

Maybe we can have a talk about how to negotiate with toddlers. That's. That might be what.

That might be what we need to focus on, man.

Dominic's in that no stage, and he says it with such confidence. And I think the thing that is most hurtful about him is that it's not just like, hey, I'm offering you something. No, but with me, like, sometimes I just. I look at him, and I walk over to him, and he just looks at me. He's like, no, no, no. Like, you, Kwame, holistically, as a person, I want to reject you.

Yeah.

Everything about me, I was just coming.

Over to say, yeah, you know. Geez.

Brutal. Brutal, man.

Keeps you humble. Keeps you humble.

That's true.

Yeah. Oh, by the way, I got some cool, really good feedback on the episode I did on your show, so.

Oh, awesome. Yeah, same here, man. That was super cool. Yeah. What? The little mock trial we did, like, all the stuff we talked about, man. Yeah. Went over great. So I was super glad to have you, man. What a blast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anytime. Listen, I. It's fun for me, you know, it's. It's fun to do those things, especially the. Those, like, those mock simulations.

It's probably cool to get out of the industry, too, right? Like, that's one reason I was looking forward to chatting with you today. It's like, I love web design, but if somebody asked me how to start getting web design clients again, I'm gonna be like, all right. It's like, you know, like, once you HEAR A question 900,000 times, it's like, all right, you know, something new, please.

I feel you, man. I feel you.

Yeah, this is good. Also, one of the next times we chat, we have to talk about AI, because you actually are in that world.

Yeah. I used it today to come up with a podcast title Chat GPT.

Nice.

Yeah, I'm. I'm just not. I'm not an early adopter of AI, so I'm like, ah, whatever. It might be kind of cool. And then as soon as I started using it for. For. Yeah, like, titles or descriptions, taglines, stuff like that, I'm like, okay. Yep, I'm in. I'm in.

Yeah. Well, have you seen it code before?

Huge for code like, massive. That's. Actually, as a web designer, that's one of the best things for web design is because instead of going to a forum or trying to find a blog post, you can literally just put your code in there. It'll tell you what's wrong, so. Or give you code. So. Yeah, it's awesome.

That's awesome, man. Yeah. I'm excited to see what happens in the future for it. It's going to affect everything. It's just a question of how.

Yeah. I think my mindset is just to use it as a tool just as an addition in my industry. There's a lot of people who are worried about AI taking over web design completely. I don't think that's going to happen because there's such a human touch that needs to happen in online marketing as a whole. But no doubt there's some changes right now and that are coming. So trying to keep the pulse on it best I could, just like we all are.

Yeah, man, I feel you.