Overcoming Emotional Challenges About DEI/Race with Maileen Hamto

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Maylene, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame. I really do appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Absolutely. Kwame. First of all, I want to thank you for being part of the upcoming WTIA Washington Technology Industry Association Diverse, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Summit. I work for the DEI center of Excellence at WTIA and I just want to do a quick plug. The event is tailored for anyone with an interest in operationalizing DEI within their organization and it's particularly helpful and relevant for C suite leaders of startups, small and medium sized companies, as well as human resources and DEI leaders. And as far as myself, I have more than 20 years of experience doing strategic communications and also being an internal DEI resource for large complex organizations in health care nonprofits as well as higher education institutions. It's really a great pleasure to be part of this conversation with you today. Kwame.

Yes, it is a pleasure to have you and thank you for the shout out and bringing me to the conference too. I appreciate it. So listeners, Maylene has a very special place in my heart because we first connected in July when Maylene reached out to talk about the opportunity to do this keynote here. And you were the first person that I ever met who read the book that was not on my team. And so to hear your feedback, it was really encouraging because when you write a book, you're kind of in your cave and you're not exposed to the world. It feels like you're just in solitude, just writing this thing. And then when it's exposed to the world, it's kind of scary because you're wondering, was I right or was I just way up? So it was really reassuring to get that feedback from you. So I appreciate that.

Absolutely. And Kwame, I want to tell you that when I first got the advanced reader copy of your book and I started diving in, everything that you wrote in the book really resonated for me as a longtime DEI leader and having done this work and having loads of conversation with other DEI leaders as well. I think I've mentioned before that the work of Washington Technology industry association in DEI is strengthened by our commitment to the 70 plus companies that signed the Anti Racism and Tech Pact, which is a bold vision for dismantling systemic racism in the technology industry. And so the the DEI center of Excellence exists to support the pact as well as organizations at all stages of their DEI journey. And I want to share with you that all of the points that you made in the book in terms of really highlighting persuasive communication, the importance of conflict resolution, and being aware of those techniques and strategies are important in this work. And so I was just really excited that you accepted the invitation to be part of this keynote because a lot of the attendees of the summit are really looking for practical applications of DEI concepts in their work. And you really bring a different lens to the work because of your expertise in persuasive communications as well as the framework that you developed. Compassionate curiosity.

Oh, this is great. I appreciate this. This is awesome. Well, listeners, for this episode we're doing a bit of a reverse interview. So Maylene is going to ask me questions and I get to have the benefit of sitting back and being led by the host. So Maylene, can you tell them a little bit about the questions you're going to ask, what your goal is, and then we could just jump right in?

Yeah, absolutely. As I mentioned, Kwame, the DEI Summit is really tailored for the and DEI practitioners that are out there looking for strategic and practical applications of the work. And so we're really looking forward to diving in and having you share about your latest book, how to have Difficult Conversations about Practical Tools for Necessary Change in the Workplace and beyond. When I first read the advanced reader copy, as I mentioned, I found most helpful the tactical recommendations for using communications and conflict management techniques to advance DEI conversations in the workplace. I want to share that I agree with your premise that many people, particularly those from the dominant racial culture, avoid conversations about race because of fear. Fear of Discomfort or damaging important relationships, being misunderstood or perhaps even ostracized, especially in the workplace setting. And so what you offer in how to have difficult conversations about race are really practical guides for making these crucial conversations easier and more productive.

Thank you. No, that's great. And you're absolutely right. The fear is real for everybody involved. And I think one of the biggest points to remember is that emotions don't play by our rules, even within ourselves. Sometimes we don't feel justified in the way that we feel, but it doesn't change the fact that we do feel the way that we feel. A lot of times we don't feel other people are justified in feeling the way that they feel, but it doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact, feel the way that they feel. And so regardless, those emotional barriers, either within ourselves or within others, they're going to be real and they're going to have an impact on the conversation. So we have to accept that they're real and come up with a strategy to still have productive and constructive conversations, even though those emotional challenges exist.

Absolutely. And thank you for starting with that. Really making sure that we are aware of the emotions that are in these conversations, that are present in these conversations. But I'm wondering if we can also start from the beginning, beginning the origin story of the book. So you explained in the introduction that after the racial reckoning of 2020, you were at first reluctant to jump into the fray, even though this is your expertise. Right. You help people have difficult conversations about very difficult topics and kind of get them moving in the direction that you intend to. So can you share a little bit about your journey for breathing life into this book?

Yeah. And, Maylene, I feel like reluctant might be a bit of a euphemism. I think I was openly resistant to jumping back in. And so listeners. So let me give you a little bit of historical context. So after I graduated from Ohio State's law school and the Master of Public Policy, I did the dual degree and finished that up. And my first stop was at the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity. So I was doing civil rights type of work. And so I did that for about two or three years. And I was just emotionally burnt out after all of that time working. I had not solved racism, believe it or not. Right. And so it felt like I wasn't having an impact with the work that I was doing. And a lot of times people suffer from advocacy fatigue where you keep on pouring into something so much, so much, so much that you Just burn out, just out of emotional exhaustion. So I said, you know what? I'm going to pivot and I'm going to try to run as far away from this as possible. So I started my practice in business law, started doing more mediations and things like that. And then eventually that turned into the American Negotiation Institute. And now the company is what it is today. But when 2020 came around, I was avoiding this. I was using the ostrich technique. It's been working for me for what, three years or so? So I'm going to say, well, this will just blow over. I'm going to avoid this. And so to let listeners know just how far out of the game I was, I blocked everybody on social media who ever talked about politics or race. And I stopped watching the news completely. And so I was happier than ever, mental health wise. I felt great, but I was very ignorant to what was happening. And one of the people that I blocked on social media, just to show you how far I went, was my wife, Whitney Christian. Our relationship was great. It was fantastic. But I was like, whitney, you're a little bit too woke for me right now. I'm trying to avoid all of this. And so when 2020 rolled around, I was doing the exact same thing, trying to avoid the situation. I didn't want to talk about race. I didn't want to hear about it, nothing. And so then Whitney obviously is. She listens to the podcast too much because now she can negotiate. And so she had a tough conversation with me. She said, kwame, your whole brand is about stepping up and having these difficult conversations and turning conflict into an opportunity. So how does it look for your followers, your fans, the people who look up to you and look to you for information that you are actively avoiding? One of the toughest convers that's happening in America today. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. And so when I was faced with that level of hypocrisy, I had to step up and do something. And I put together this free web, a town hall for everybody. And the post that I made for it went viral, and there was a lot of interest. And from there, a literary agent reached out and said, kwame, this is your second book. And I did not want it to be my second book, but I said, listen, I want to be where the hardest conversations are, and I want to be able to help people in this way, because my assumption is that if I can give people a tool that can make this particular conversation easier, it will make every conversation they're having easier, whether or not it's about race, dei, or anything like that. Just all conversations will be easier if you can absorb the lessons from this book. And so that's really the spirit that I brought into this. I wanted to make it as powerful and practical as possible and really stay in my lane. So I say it in the introduction and throughout the book. My goal isn't to teach people what to think about race. I want to teach people how to talk about race throughout it. And I think we did a pretty solid job of maintaining that focus and that spirit throughout the book.

Yeah, absolutely, Kwame. And as I mentioned earlier, everything that you wrote really resonated because you really provided some very practical and applicable tips that people can use in these everyday conversations, especially in workplace settings, where there's a lot of. There's maybe a little bit more risk for certain people to really bring up grace and also to advance the conversation. Thank you so much for doing that. And I wanted to talk about the specific techniques and strategies that you talked about, particularly with persuasive communication. So, of course, in your work as a mediator, as an attorney, as a trainer for negotiations, this makes total sense. And being able to convince others that have different opinions about your point of view and your arguments is really critical. Can you explain more? And you alluded to this earlier, but can you explain more about why you believe this approach also applies to conversations about race and racial equity, especially in the workplace?

Yeah, definitely. And so when I think about our approach to difficult conversations, our methodology is to approach it first from diffusing the emotional challenge and then connecting and then persuading. That's always our sequence with the American Negotiation Institute. And so, of course, the compassionate curiosity framework fits in nicely to that. And so I think a lot of times in these conversations, we approach this from a position of superiority, either intellectual superiority or moral superiority. And we think the strength of our argument by itself should be enough to win the day. And there is no world where that is the truth. That doesn't work in law, that doesn't work in business negotiations, it doesn't work in mediations, and it doesn't work in these types of conversations. And so here's the thing, the way I see it is that difficult conversations about race and other sensitive topics, because we can broaden this, right? But for the focus of this conversation, difficult. Conversations about race are difficult because of emotions. That is the main thing. There are going to be psychological and emotional barriers that make this particular conversation more challenging. And because of the heightened level of emotionality, there's going to be more barriers subconsciously to this particular conversation. And so it's going to be harder for us to graduate to a rational discussion, the discussion that we want to have, because both parties, for whatever reason, have their emotions. And these types of conversations, especially about sensitive issues, are going to trigger more emotionality because of two reasons. First, it's going to be identity. Then it's going to be morality. So identity answers the question, who am I? And what does it mean to be a person like me? And what does a person like me say or do under these circumstances? And then also morality. What does it mean to be a good or bad person? Those are the two things that really feed into this discussion, that make this discussion much more difficult. There is a very simple solution to dealing with highly emotional conversations. The more emotional the conversations, the more tightly we need to hold onto the core principles of negotiation, persuasion, and conflict resolution. I want to write a book that is just a really tight, strategic and tactical guide for being able to identify the psychological and emotional barriers and then have an actual approach to addressing those psychological, emotional barriers. Because I want ultimately the book to be empowering. I want people to read the book and say, I can do this. I can step up and have this conversation. And I feel like too many books in this genre are a bit too disempowering, where we blame other people for our problems and we blame other people for the conversations going poorly without giving people the practical tools to actually address the situation. So we can read a book and then we could say, you know what? Now I know 10 different reasons why that person is terrible and why they are making every conversation rough. Okay, now what do you do about that? Nothing. They need to go get better. Well, that's disempowering. Then you're giving away your ability to change the situation because we're saying, you know, What? It's their fault. They need. They need to do better. But we have to remember there's a difference between fault and responsibility. It might be their fault for performing poorly because most people just aren't trained on this. But even though it might be their fault, if we want to be an advocate or an ally or change the situation now, it's our responsibility to comport ourselves at a higher level during the conversation to overcome those very predictable emotional and psychological barriers that we'll face in these conversations. So I know that's a long winded answer, but that is why we need to really pay attention to the skills of clarity of conflict resolution, negotiation, and persuasion as it relates to these sensitive topics.

Really do appreciate you writing this book and providing us some of these tactical tools and strategies and how to break down these communication barriers and a different way of approaching these issues. And also your emphasis on the framework of applying compassionate curiosity and how you started with humble inquiry and how it engenders mutual trust and understanding, that you first discussed this framework in the TED talk that went viral, as well as in your first book, Finding Confidence in Conflict. And not to give away too much, but I was struck by how you explained the framework in a very accessible manner. It's such a complex concept, but you made it look so easy. Right. And so the steps that you outlined are really profound. Acknowledge and validate emotions as you have been discussing it, get curious with compassion, and also use joint problem solving. Can you share a little bit more about why compassionate curiosity works in productive conversations about racial equity, especially in the workplace context?

Perfect. Great question. Yeah. And so you're right. It is a simple approach, and it took years to get it that simple, because I really sat there and thought about it and said, what are the things that I do in every single conversation? Like, every single conversation that goes well, what is it that I kind of do naturally? Because I'm obsessed with this type of information? Maylene, right now, besides teaching being a professor at two schools and then doing these trainings all the time, I mean, we're at episode, what, like 660 of the podcast now, and every time I do an episode, I learn something new through doing the episode. So there are things that I've just absorbed and then put into practice kind of organically, but with compassionate curiosity. I wanted to figure out what are those things that I always do. Because when you think about what compassionate curiosity is, if we're trying to label it, it's not a strategy, it's kind of a tactic. But I think it's even more than a tactic. It's more like a mental model that you can put on every conversation. So for me, when I am a lawyer, I'm negotiating with opposing counsel, I'm using compassionate curiosity. If I'm a mediator resolving conflict, I'm using compassionate curiosity. As a father tucking in my son to bed as he's getting out and disobeying me, I'm using compassionate curiosity. And of course with my wife using that too. I want something that's ubiquitous, right? So that's really the power, because every conversation turns into a practice opportunity because it's not a natural response to be empathetic when somebody is really getting under your skin or frustrating you, when somebody says something offensive or you feel as though they're an obstacle to progress or empathy is not the natural response. Right? But if you start to be able to see compassionate curiosity everywhere, you can put it into action. So like you said, it is first, acknowledge and validate emotions. Step two, get curious with compassion. And step three, joint problem solving. But it's also designed to not only resolve the external conflicts with others, but also it can be flipped internally with your self negotiation as a tool for introspection, bias reduction and emotional regulation too. So again, what you're going to do is you're going to acknowledge and validate your own emotions, get curious with self directed compassion, asking questions to figure out the root of the emotionality. And then with joint problem solving internally, we're reconciling the differences between our hearts and minds. What would satisfy me emotionally in this situation and what would actually satisfy me in terms of solving the problem? What should I do in the real world? And by going through this exercise, it helps to calm you down, helps you to make better decisions because you're recognizing what decisions are influenced by bias and what, what, which decisions are influenced by rational thought. And then just, it helps you to understand yourself on a deeper level. So once you do that internal self work, then it makes you a lot more effective in the actual conversation because you can operate at a point of stability and clarity.

Again, I keep saying appreciate because I am just so grateful that again you wrote this book and that you are here in this conversation, in this DEI space. Right. Because as you mentioned earlier, there's a lot of foundational and fundamental concepts that you expressed in the book that to be completely honest, we don't really get in a lot of the DEI practices and policies that we are encountering in the workplace. And so really just starting with, as you mentioned, compassionate curiosity, starting with the self. And I can share that. Having done this work for many years, I've seen the impulse toward acquiring tools and fixing what's wrong in systems and institutions. Right. And of course that's super important, but in the DEI space, we need something more. We get a whole host of learning and development strategies that define what diversity is or what equity is not. So starting with the nomenclature. Right. And we also get a lot of training about the neuroscience of unconscious and implicit biases, tools and tips about DEI strategies, et cetera. And what's missing is what you're talking about. The fundamental foundational focus on the self. Right. Acknowledging the impacts of systemic racism on current inequities and other systemic inequities and oppression, as well, as well as refining and clarifying one's commitment to racial equity. When I read your book, an important aspect of compassionate curiosity is nurturing self awareness strategies, which starts with understanding where one stands on important issues of equity. Can you elaborate more about your thoughts on why self awareness is an important, important first step in bringing others along on the journey toward justice?

Yeah. So when you think about self awareness, let's just use the metaphor of a map. So if I'm trying to tell you where you should go relative to where I am, I need to know where I am on this map too, right? So there's always some kind of journey that we're going on. So let's say it's a situation where I am in a situation where I'm mad or I'm frustrated. This is. That's my current emotional state. And so in my mental roadmap, I'm trying to get to a point where I am not feeling that anymore, where I have higher levels of stability. Okay, great. So if I'm trying to chart that out internally, how do I get there? I need to know where I currently am, right? So we know where we want to go, but we're not always clear on where we currently are. And so that's why self awareness is where we start when it comes to emotional intelligence. That's always the start, starting point. Being able to acknowledge and accept where we currently are, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, whatever it happens to be. And that takes introspection. But a lot of times when people say, okay, use some introspection, think about it, right? There's no framework for it. Well, okay, I get. I thought about it for two seconds. Is that what you mean? Because I did think about it, right? So I wanted to make it a little bit clear. So there's a roadmap so we can identify it, help us to figure out where we are, are and what we want to do. Because the thing is, it's not these. These situations are complex and there are layers to it. And if you don't take the time to go through it, you won't really understand the subtle nuances. So here's a good example. So if you remember in the compassionate curiosity section, kind of walk through how you can do this internally. And I gave the example of Julie Chen. So let's say you're in a conversation and somebody says, hey, hey, I'm thinking about promoting a woman on your team named Julie Chen. What do you think about her? Instant gut reaction is, no, I don't think she's leadership material. I don't think that's a good move. Like that's the thought. And so I say this is an opportunity. Before you let off that thought, let's go through it. Because you might objectively be correct, but we want to make sure. Right. So acknowledge and validate in this case the feelings, the emotions, the beliefs, the thoughts. Right. So what is that acknowledgement? Okay, I don't think Julie Chen is leadership material. Okay, what else are you feeling? Yeah, I don't feel comfortable giving the recommendation in this situation. Anything else? No, that's about it. Okay. We have, we have identified where we currently are. That's where we are. That's acknowledging. Right. And validating it. Okay, I can understand how you got there. Then we take it to the next step. Getting curious with self directed compassion. And the self directed compassion is very important because a lot of times you might not like what you find when you go through this process. And if you're confronted with something about yourself that you might not have known is there, but you might be embarrassed or ashamed of if you don't approach it with self directed compassion, you're going to stop the process short because you don't like what you find. And then you're going to, you're going to move back and say, oh, I'm an evil person. I don't want to think about this anymore. Right. So let's see. Continuing the process. Okay, so you don't think Julie Chen is leadership material. What led you to that conclusion? I'm not quite sure. I don't have a clear answer. Okay. Was there something in particular that she did that was wrong? No. Okay, well, how have her reviews been when she's on a project? How does she do? Well, her projects are always really well done. Has she expressed any hesitation to join? Being a leader or any desire? Actually, no. She mentions that she wants to be a leader and she wants to rise to the ranks. And when she has leadership opportunities, how does she do? Actually, actually does pretty well. Well, okay, so we got curious with self directed compassion. Now we're painting a picture. So now we're at the last step, reconciling the differences between our hearts and minds. So emotionally, what would satisfy me in this instant? And then what should I actually do once I do this calculation? So emotionally I want to be a person who's making good decisions based on objective information. I don't want to be a person who lets my personal biases get in the way. I'm not exactly sure what held me back from making that determination with Julie Chen in this situation, but I know that I don't have the evidence to substantiate my conclusion. And so I want to be a fair minded person. So what should I do in this situation? I should probably give the recommendation. Now this is an example of internally directed compassionate curiosity resolving that internal negotiation. And it might seem cumbersome, but the thing is, if you take the time and practice more and more and more, you'll get a lot more efficient with this process and you'll be able to do it a lot faster. But again, it needs to become a mental habit.

Thank you so much for walking us through that example, Kwame. I think it's, it's an excellent, you know, illustration of how to use compassionate curiosity, particularly the self directed pieces into creating, you know, the opportunity for more, you know, inquiry about certain decisions, et cetera. And all leaders should definitely practice, as you mentioned, I was just wondering, you know, in your experience with kind of bringing up the emotionality that, you know, conversations about race and racism, you know, may engender or may, may bring up, how do you think people should deal with that? Especially in the context of workplace settings that may not have space for, you know, emotions to be acknowledged, et cetera.

So yeah, I think one of the things we have to realize is that sometimes our workplaces, like you said, they're not equipped for these difficult, difficult, difficult conversations. In order for us as an organization, again, we're focusing on the workplace to be able to have these conversations effectively. It needs to have, we need to have the right mindset, the right skill set and the right culture. So mindset. We have to put our minds in the right spot. We have to have the right, the right goals, the right focuses, those type of things. And then in the book we walk through that, you have to have the Right. Skills. So you need to know how to have difficult conversations. Most of us are woefully underprepared, prepared for how to have difficult conversations in general. And then we ask leaders to have conversations about race. And they haven't been equipped for that either. So how well do we expect these things to go? And then lastly, we have to have culture. The organization has to have a culture where people can feel comfortable, safe expressing themselves in these situations. We have to understand when we think about a safe space that doesn't guarantee us or entitle us to comfort, it entitles us to share our feelings and opinions with without reprisal or repercussions. Those type of things you're not going to be punished for expressing yourself. So those are the three things. But what we want to do within our relationships, within our interpersonal relationships with other people as we're having these conversations is think about our relationship as a culture. We want to find a way to make that person feel safe expressing themselves in this conversation. And I think a lot of times when it comes to the concepts of, of listening and the concept of vulnerability, those are reciprocal in nature. If somebody is not listening to you, sometimes you need to listen first in order to make them feel safe enough and comfortable enough to listen to you. If somebody is not being vulnerable with you, it might require you to be a little bit vulnerable first, so then they can see, okay, it's safe to be vulnerable in this situation. So it's not easy to address the emotionality in these conversations, but it is necessary if we want to have higher level dialogue. Because a lot of times what people do is they, they feel those emotions or they can see the emotions on the other, on the other side, and they're not comfortable with the, the emotionality nor do they have the skills to address the emotionality. And so it just festers. The way you address a problem or solve a problem is not by avoiding it. Right. Just pretending the emotions aren't there is not an effective way to address the impact that the emotions are going to have on the conversation. So if you want to be successful, you have to address that emotionality. And so that's why that framework is so important for addressing the emotionality and helping the person feel safe expressing themselves with the conversation they're having with you.

Thank you so much, Kwame, for mentioning that. And you know, in relation to the upcoming summit and really kind of diving deeper into these, these practical tools that you're sharing with us, particularly in the technology field, right, where DEI is still, you know, a fairly new concept, and a lot of organizations are getting into the DEI conversation with such sort of a novice awareness about this work. We really are looking forward to having your expertise there. And those are all the questions that I had. I was wondering if there was anything else that you would like to emphasize for perhaps those leaders in technology organizations that will be joining the summit.

Yeah, I think the big thing is you have to lean in and use the framework. I want to keep it as simple as possible. I keep on saying that because I think it's important, because I think fear is a very crafty emotion and it can mask itself in a lot of different ways. And for intellectuals, for people who are deep thinkers, one of the best ways and most effective ways for fear to operate is through overthinking. And so if I. That's. That's naturally going to be one of people's responses to fear. And so I don't want to make it easy for the fear to overcomplicate things by me overcomplicating things, too. So if there's one thing that I want people to take away, it is, number one, have the conversation. Remember, conflict is an opportunity, and we can turn these interactions and opportunities to learn, learn, grow, strengthen the relationships, solve problems, improve organizations. With the right mindset, the opportunities abound when it comes to these difficult conversations. So have the conversation. And you don't need to spice things up. You don't need to try anything new or anything like that. Just stick to the framework, acknowledge and validate emotions, get curious with compassion, enjoy problem solving. And that's one of my favorite things to do on the stage sometimes is just if somebody brings up a good situation, I say, hey, let's use this as a case study. Study. I want you to become that person that you're afraid of, and I want you to take what they typically give you, ramp it up by, like, tenfold. And I'm going to limit myself to one tool, compassionate curiosity. I'm not going to use another negotiation or conflict resolution tool. I'm just going to use this one and I'll show you how it operates in this situation. And then we go back and forth. The person's like, I'm struggling to stay mad in this situation because it's science at the end of the day, the day. And in the book, I break down all the science, too. But for now, when it comes to the message to the leaders who are listening to this podcast and who would be listening to the summit, just have the conversation and use the framework that's all you need to do.

Much appreciation, Kwame, for this wonderful discussion and we really look forward to your keynote and also the fireside chat with our Chief Diversity Officer, Yolanda Chase.

My pleasure. This will be fun. Thanks for coming on the show. Show congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.