Overcoming Fear and Doubt: Getting Comfortable With the Uncomfortable with Victoria Pynchon

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Vicky, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame. I've been looking forward to this for some time.

Same, same.

It's nice to meet you.

Likewise. I have heard great things. We have a lot of mutual friends. And we have a mutual mentee, Minson. I'm sure he'll come up at some point during this interview. So sh. Shout out to Minson here. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Okay, try and make it short. So I spent 25 years as a lawyer litigating complex commercial cases. Some of them involved products. I spent a fair amount of years doing environmental issues insurance coverage work, which is frankly the thing that led me first to mediation because I was sitting around a table with maybe a dozen or more attorneys from the most expensive law firms in town trying to figure out how we were going to answer interrogatories from the oil company that was suing the insurance carriers. And I thought, this is insane. We could take this money and just apply it directly to the wound. It just seemed crazy to me. It was the first time I was involved in that level of couple hundred Million dollar litigation. I represented Lloyds of London. And we were usually not primary carriers, but first level excess. So we tended to lead the cases, lead the defense with primary insurance carriers. So, and that was like, you know, anyway, I ended up in media. I ended up in a mediation course because I just more and more began to think that litigation was 17th century Dispute resolution technology and if doctors were still practicing 17th century medicine, we'd all be in pretty bad shape. So I signed myself up for a 40 hour course and I got very excited. It was a transformative experience for me and we can talk about that later. And I enrolled in a master's degree program in dispute resolution and practice part time, practice law part time, and started my own mediation practice and found that in my market, which is commercial litigation for major corporate plaintiffs and defendants, they didn't really want to hire women. In fact, my husband, who was counsel for the oil companies and the loyal opposition, and we met litigating a case, so he had never hired a woman. Most of the men I knew, the Practice is like 80% male. Still was in 04 when I took my first mediation class. And lawyers still tend to think of kind of mediated or negotiated resolutions as losing and mediators. People who facilitate a negotiation need to be big and tough and male. And you know, I got hired for, you know, personal injury cases where a woman got burned in a beauty salon when they, you know, curled her hair. Not my specialty. So, so, so I started blogging about negotiation in 0405 and women started coming my way. Women wanted to learn how to negotiate. The lawyers weren't that interested. They wanted to win. They knew they were going to settle. But it was losing. It's losing, settling. And I understood that. So anyway, my business partner called me up one day and said, you want to do this for a living? And I said, no. And we gave a course, our first course for women professionals. And they had a transformative experience which was similar to the one I had when I learned how to mediate. And so I said, yeah, let's start a business. And so the two of us together, she had experience as a coach, I did not. I had experience as a wolverine. And together we, we put together. She negotiates. It was a good team. And now she's off doing something else. After 10 years together, she wanted to do more storytelling. And so I took over. She negotiates. So that's what I do now. I help women make more money.

That's great. I love it. So this, this is we. I really appreciate and admire the work that you do, because it's so critical, so important. And one little issue that I take with the, the story that you told, I am a Buckeye from Ohio State. So you can't describe yourself as a wolverine. You could say, you can say honey badger or tiger or shark.

But I can say I was raised by wolves.

There you go. I like that.

I was raised by wolves. There you go.

But this is great. And one of the words that you said multiple times is the word transformative. And for the listeners who know my story, of course, as a recovering people pleaser who learned how to negotiate and advocate for myself, it was a transformative experience. And so, like I mentioned before, our motto is we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And for us, we've recognized that our lives have changed significantly by learning this skill. And so when you think about the term transformative based on your life experience and the people that you've worked with, what does that mean to you?

It means I've found a way to honor the part of me that wants to be of service to other people. Because I do have a kind of lifetime of pro bono and volunteer experience in mostly counseling, frankly, peer counseling, suicide prevention, working with runaways. I've been doing that since I was 19. So that was a part of me that I didn't really get to bring to legal practice that often. So I found a way to honor that and at the same time not to lose the power that I observed my, you know, divorced mother evidence almost all my life that she didn't understand how the world worked and that she didn't cry victim. You know, she was a daughter of the depression, but I just saw her as being kind of helpless. And I vowed to myself that that was not going to happen to me. So I had these kind of, you know, I had an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, and I didn't know how to bring them together. And learning to negotiate and finding out that I was good at it because I was afraid of it. I was less afraid arguing to a jury than I was talking with someone across a table in a way in which I could express my preferences and at the same time serve their interests. And so that mutual benefit negotiation or interest based negotiation, which is what I was taught, that was like a magical moment for me because it allowed me to marry both a kind of hard practicality with a desire to be at peace with people.

That's intriguing. And so to clarify, you're saying that there was a time in your career where you felt more comfortable arguing a case, litigating than actually negotiating? Yeah. Oh, that's fascinating. And so, listeners, I want you all to take solace in this, because if you've ever felt afraid, scared, uncomfortable in a negotiation, it might be a sign that you're doing it the right way, because you have Vicki here, who is an incredible negotiator, well respected globally in this field, and who helps people to negotiate effectively. And this was something that she struggled with. And as you all know, I've been open with that. For me, too, it's something that you can overcome. And so for you, Vicky, in your career and with the people that you've worked with, how have you helped them to overcome that fear?

Most women, no matter how successful they already are, focus on their inadequacies. They are acutely aware of what kind of pushbacks they're going to get if they ask for a raise, if they negotiate, if they negotiate something north of the money that's on the table from a new employer. So, I mean, they are in the head of their negotiation partner, but they're in a negative head of their negotiation partners. So the first thing I do is help them remember that they've always been at 90% on the bell curve. I mean, I just, I cheerlead. And they need that. We all need that, right? We all need to be told we're like, way better than we think we are. We're surrounded by other people who, many of whom are maybe we think superior to us. But if we're functioning at a pretty high level professionally or in business, we need to think better of ourselves. So that's step number one. Step number two is to remind them that everybody feels uncomfortable negotiating. And I often tell my own story in an initial call, which is that I had getting to. Yes, Sitting on my shelf in my law firm for 20 years without reading it because I was afraid that it was going to tell me to one, do something that I couldn't do, or two, tell me that I was really terrible at it. I was really fearful of negotiating. I wasn't raised in a family that resolved things peacefully, so I didn't really have experience in that, but I had experience in arguing for my always just point so that that came easier to me. So I normalize both fear and being on the other side of fear and that it's just a conversation, the purpose of which is to reach agreement. And what do particularly women like more than conversation and agreement? So, you know, so I kind of help them understand that it's what I was taught, how I was taught to negotiate, which is it is an attempt to find a solution that's going to make everybody somewhat happy. I don't believe, like most lawyers say, that a good negotiation means everybody leaves unhappy. That's not my experience. My experience is that we make all kinds of assumptions about what other people want and what they're thinking. And we don't ask nearly enough questions to find out what they need and what they're afraid of. So I often start with, what do you think your negotiation partners greatest challenges and greatest opportunities are? And how do you think you can forward their journey toward those opportunities and their ability to overcome those challenges? And that's a sweet spot for women. If you were a people pleaser, right, you can take that power. That's a superpower, as long as you have control over it. Knowing how to please people is a superpower. And it's not manipulative. I think it's born of a genuine desire to be useful.

Exactly.

To others.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. And I want to speak to that last point you made about manipulation, because when you think about the term manipulation, sometimes that's a question I get, hey, isn't this manipulation? I said, well, it depends because here's the situation. Manipulation is when you're changing people's perspectives and the decisions that they're making and their behavior, thoughts and actions, whatever, for malicious purposes, you're steering them in the wrong direction knowingly. But with persuasion, you have a positive purpose behind it. So it's not whether or not the tools are negative or positive. It's all about intent. And if we're negotiating the right way, we should be trying to solve our problems while at the same time solving other people's problems in the process. And really, what in your response, what you've helped us to recognize is that when it comes to a lot of the reasons why we have a performance gap in Our negotiations, it's going to start internally, it's going to start in our heads. And so we have the mindset and the skill set. So what are the internal blockers that are getting in the way of our success? And then also at the end, we can talk about the skills. But usually it's that mental side too. One of the things that I've recognized in my work and just my experience is that confidence is compartmentalized. And so like you said, the women that you're working with are high achievers, high earners, and so clearly they have an incredibly high level of competence and confidence in what it is that they're doing day to day. However, as it relates to the specific skill of negotiation, they don't have that confidence. And what you help to see, help them to see is that a lot of times it just requires a shift in perspectives. They have the skills they need to negotiate effectively, but they instead choose to focus on their deficiencies rather than their strengths. And so as, as you're helping them to mold and shift their perspectives in this way, what is the transformative result in their lives that extends beyond the negotiation table?

I've had many, I've had many, many of my clients say use the word agency, which surprises me because I frankly got that out of years of therapy. I didn't have enough agency. But it usually comes from a sense of, you know, even if they didn't get what they wanted, right? So they didn't get quite the raise they wanted. They got, maybe they're going to get another review in three or six months, but the promotion is still being held tantalizingly away from them. They tell me, I feel like I got value out of this because I can advocate for myself now and I feel like I have agency and I can use that. And people who I have long term relationships with, like in trainings, online trainings, they come in with stories, they teach their kids how to negotiate. They teach their middle schoolers how to negotiate. Oh, you know that problem that you're having with your English teacher? That was one of the stories that I got. Their husbands say, does she teach men too? Because their husbands see a transformation in their wives ability to advocate without losing that thing that we women hold dear, which is we really are the glue that holds the social world together. I mean, I believe that most women are peacemakers, are natural peacemakers. All you have to do is think about the Thanksgiving table and crazy Uncle Phil. Whichever side of the partisan divide you've got going on at the dinner table, generally it's the women who calm things down, you know, offer an extra piece of pie, sacrifice their own, you know, pie cravings to make sure everybody else has something. And I just say, you get to keep that. In fact, you must keep that. But you can't keep taking it into the work environment, because in that environment, you're going to be taken advantage of if you don't learn how to take both of those skills, the skill that you have, like in my case, arguing to a jury, standing in a courtroom, arguing with a judge, trying to get my way, I can take that skill and at the same time use the superpower of people pleasing to be genuinely curious about what the other. What my negotiation partner wants and needs. And it's that curiosity that women are super good at, right? I used to tell people I've stopped doing it because I'm. I'm getting older, but I used to tell women, it's like picking up a guy in a bar, you know, I mean, just ask him a million questions, he will buy you drinks and more. Just you just ask him question, what do you do for a living? How about those Dodgers? Tell me all about yourself. You have kids, you know, and that's true for everybody, but it works particularly well, I'm afraid to say. I have experience in my pre sober years of picking men up in bars.

That is a story for another podcast episode, Vicki. But you're absolutely right. And something that I appreciate about this is the simplification of this process. One saying that I've started to put at the beginning of my presentations is that simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication. And, and that's what you've demonstrated here, right? Because you have years of litigation experience, you have years of mediation experience, you have years of teaching women and other people how to negotiate effectively. And what you've done is you've provided us with something very, very simple. Overcoming that, those mental hurdles, whatever those might be for us, and then just simply getting curious to figure out what somebody wants and needs and then finding creative ways for. For you to win and for me to win. I think that's pretty simple.

I'm going to tell you one more story. It's short. So I'm mediating a case between two Israeli businessmen and an elegant, incredibly successful Korean businessman. And they're fighting over. They're fighting tooth and nail over like, I don't know, it was $100,000, I think, and which clearly neither side needed, right? And particularly the Korean businessman. And we were just. It was impasse, impasse impasse, you know, all of the good reasons why they should settle fell on deaf ears. And I finally took the Korean businessman outside, and I said, you know, I'm curious, which I often waited too long to get. You know, I'm curious why you're spending money on lawyers over this small amount of money, you know, like, why? And he said, well, I have two sons, and one of them is a great businessman, and the other one was not. But I gave my son, who was not very adept as a businessman, this case, this transaction. And while he was working on it, he died of cancer. And I'm doing this for him. And then we had a conversation, right? And then we had a conversation about the meaning of this thing and the grief that he was still experiencing and channeling through this litigation. And we settled it almost instantaneously. And he said, it's like you're inside my head. How did you know what I was thinking? And I said, because I asked you what you were thinking. You know, I asked. I asked.

Wow.

So. And that was hard. That was the hardest thing for me to. I knew it was the right thing to do, but as a litigator, it was a thing that was. Took the longest for me to start asking more deeply earlier.

Absolutely. Oh, that's great. And that's a great story to end on. Vicky, I really appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom with us. Before you go, can you make sure to let the listeners know how they can reach you and work with you and about where they can get access to your blogs and content, too?

Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find. I'm@shenegotiates.com everything about the packages that I offer and my hourly rate and all of that. I also give scholarships to people who are making less than $50,000 a year. I give two scholarships a month, and that can all be found@shenegotiates.com or Google me. I'm all over the Internet.

Fantastic, Vicki. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

It was great. Thank you for having me on.

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