[Part 1] Reverse Interview: The Psychology Behind Successful Negotiations with Kwame Christian and Jannies Burlingame

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. And I am grateful for you and listeners like you for making Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world with over 12 million downloads and listeners in over 180 different countries. And today we have a very special episode. It's actually the first of a special two part series where the tables have been turned. It is going to be a reverse interview. So I'm in the hot seat as our guest as Janice Burlingame dives deep with her incredible questions. Janice is an incredible leader, a CFO, mother of two, board member, and a double PhD student specializing in emotional intelligence and negotiation. In part one, Janice and I explore the psychology of negotiation, the importance of authenticity, and why empathy is a skill you can learn and apply strategically. You'll hear insights from both of us as we uncover what it means to navigate negotiations with empathy and intention. And remember, this is just the beginning. Part two continues in our next episode. Janice, thanks for joining us today.

It's my pleasure. Yes.

And it's our pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Wow. Okay. I am so many things. I am a mother to two beautiful girls that challenge me constantly. Teenagers, you know, but I love them 90% of the time. I am a CFO, so I'm constantly negotiating in that front as well, because business is all about negotiations. I am a wife and I am a board member of a couple nonprofits and two for profits. And I'm a doctoral student, so I'm getting a double PhD from M. Leon in Paris and Durham University in the uk. So I don't do too much.

Wow.

I just thought, really underachiever by your typical standards, for sure. Right? Unreal.

That is very, very, very impressive. And we're really excited to have you here because today this is going to be a reverse interview. Janice is going to be interviewing me for her doctoral program. And so I said, well, why don't we just make it public? Because maybe other people get value out of this. So let me pass the ball over to you, Janice. You could set the stage, tell them about the program you're in, and then go ahead and start launching those questions my way.

Awesome. This is going to be so much fun. So I started a doctoral program which, as you may know, it's a marathon, not a sprint. So the requirements in the UK are slightly higher. Actually, a lot higher by 20% by word count than the US so the requirement is 60,000 words on your chosen topic. I happen to have a passion for my topic, so it makes it so much more interesting because I get to interview amazing people like you and the top experts in negotiation. And I just. That resonates with me. The skill set, the emotional intelligence that you bring into it. At the same time, I'm marrying emotional intelligence with economics, with game theory. And so that's more behavioral, that's economics. But when you marry psychology and economics, it's behavioral economics because game theory assumes that emotions are not involved. You and I both know that humans were creatures of emotion and all decisions have an emotional base. And so that's the hypothesis that I'm setting in my dissertation is the use of empathy in negotiations. And I just to me, like, I've read your books and there are so many themes in your books that tie to this, which is pretty incredible. So, for example, I think you talked about the emotional intelligence component of negotiations. Right. Getting to know the people that you're negotiating with, building rapport, building the relational equity. I think that's the word you've used. And so that's why I'm super excited to interview you. So I appreciate and thank you for this opportunity. So my interview is semi structured and it's going to have about six different sections. We're going to start with professional background and experience and just a couple questions in each section. Semi structure means I have the questions, but I'm happy to go into any areas and expand if you like to pursue further. So that's just have a free flow, fun conversation like we're two friends having coffee.

I love it. That sounds good.

So make it simple. So what's. What would you consider? I know you were attorney, but what's really interesting is you also majored in psychology.

Yes.

And so what is your area of expertise? You know, an attorney, negotiator. How would you describe your area of.

Yeah, I would say that negotiation comes to me from the world of law. So I was a business lawyer. So transactional type of work, drafting contracts, negotiating on behalf of my clients. I also did mediation. So I was a mediator, did hundreds of mediations. And going to one of the points that you made, I think this story kind of encapsulates my methodology too, because I remember one time I was doing a mediation and I'm approaching this empathetically, asking questions, making the people feel comfortable and everything like that. And one of the participants talked to me after the fact he's like, what do you do? What's your background? And I said, I'm a lawyer. And he looked at me skeptically. He's like, what? You don't sound like a lawyer. I said, well, my undergrad's in psychology. He's like, that's it. That's what I'm hearing. And the reality is the. When it comes to negotiation, whatever field you happen to be in, it's all. At the end of the day, it's people talking to people. It's psychology, and we often lose sight of that. And sometimes we focus so heavily on becoming better professionals that in the process, we become worse people. And I think about negotiation, conflict resolution, communication in general, almost in a way similar to a peaceful version of mixed martial arts. So in mixed martial arts, people come, they might have a wrestling base, and then they enter mma, or they might have a boxing base and they enter mma, but they still end up in the same place. And the same thing happens in the negotiation space. Because my entry point was me being a lawyer and a mediator. That's how I find myself here. Some people are in procurement or in sales, and that's how they find themselves here. Some people are in law enforcement and counterintelligence, and then they become negotiation experts. And that's really motivating for me because no matter who you are and what you do, there is a little bit of negotiator inside of you. You just need to figure out how you can utilize your professional base and then build on that in authentic way. So I have that psychology base. That's what I lean the most very, very heavily on. And then I'll sprinkle in a little bit of the law and mediation, mainly to give me a little bit more structure. But then you often have performance gaps because of your background. So here's an example. So for me, as a lawyer, coming into this space, deals find me. I don't really find deals, but for somebody who is coming from sales, they're used to hunting and finding deals. And so for. What's really fascinating for me is that if you're looking for a negotiation expert to maybe to be your coach or maybe to do a training, it's really important to understand their background. So, for instance, I've done sales training before, but I can't teach a salesperson how to hunt. I don't have experience in that. I can help them along the process, overcoming objections, managing emotions, and that type of stuff. I'll lean heavily on the mediation side, but the sales process, that's a distinct skill. I don't have that one. Hunting and finding deals, distinct skill. I don't have that one. So it's really fun to see just how you can lean into your authenticity and be effective. But then also it can trigger some humility to recognize I might be exceptionally good at one thing, but maybe not as good as another thing. So it helps you to understand with specificity where you can fill your performance gaps too.

That's a very good point. I mean, you can't be everything to everyone, right that. Isn't that a Spider man movie saying from grandma? But you're right, because as you're saying, understanding really in depth which area you're good at is exactly what a doctoral student does. When I took the CPA exam, it was a mile wide and an inch deep. But for the PhD, you're going multiple miles deep. And one specific subject to where you're that top expert in the world, that top 5% that knows that area. So it has to be very specific. And so it's interesting that you, while keeping, you know, perspective of the big picture as well, but that I love that you described exactly that, is that there are areas that you really focus on, you know, you're good at and that's what, that's what you do. So how many years of experience would you say you have in this field?

Well, I graduated from law school in 2013, so I graduated with my law degree and master's of public policy in, in 2013. And so I've been practicing in different ways since then. So when I first came out, I was doing public policy work focusing on health equity, so addressing some policy gaps that are leaving certain communities behind, so recognizing not only what needs to be done on the policy side, but also how the policymakers can structure persuasive arguments about it. So for me, that was my unique contribution into that space because a lot of times in that research, when it comes to policy research, people are really focused on what the right answer is. But like you said, when it comes to decision making, we understand that emotions are going to play a role in it. It's not always logical decision making. So I was helping the policy experts craft persuasive arguments in that world, in that realm. So then I started my own practice. Afterwards I started my own legal practice and I was serving small businesses. So mainly working with small to medium sized businesses on their, on their legal needs. And that's when I started doing mediation. And now the whole time though, I wanted to get into this space of negotiation because for me, I was a people pleaser for the majority of my life. And it wasn't until I got to law school where I discovered I could actually improve this. It's a skill, not just a talent. I could get better. So for me, I wanted to be that person who could help other people to have that same aha moment, that same revelation. And everything that I was doing was gearing up to whatever that future would be where I could either join something or create something that would give me the ability to teach people all around the world how to have the conversations. Because like our motto says, we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So we just want to help people to make their lives better, make the world better and their communities better, one difficult conversation at a time.

I think that's so inspirational in that you said you learned that it's a skill that you could continuously improve on because like empathy, you know, a lot of people believe it's nature, not nurture. But I, I do believe it's a little both. And so like negotiation, I think what's hopeful for people to learn is that you can become a better negotiator. It's not something that you're born with and then that's it, you're done. So that, that would be something that I hope everyone that listens to your podcast and millions of people, one of the main things they could take away is that as long as you continuously train like Olympian, you can become better and better.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Absolutely. And Janice, to your point about empathy, that's one thing that people often overlook. When you think about empathy, they think it is a feeling. And I guess you can feel empathetic. But I want to encourage people to look at empathy as a skill. It's just like anything else. You can develop it and improve. And I remember when I did strengths Finder a few years ago, people were really, really really surprised to see what my results were because the very last strength that I had was empathy. It's not, it doesn't come naturally to me. So I am incredibly empathetic now and I worked hard to learn how to do it through the lens of a skill. Because the thing is, if you just say to yourself, yeah, I'm not naturally empathetic, then you're letting yourself off the hook. That's kind of like the fixed mindset. It's a talent. I don't have it. And that' is going to be. But if you think about it as a skill now, your job is to try to improve that skill, recognize what it is that holds you back. Because different people have different triggers. Maybe just in general you're not an empathetic person. That is one, one challenge that people have. Sometimes it might be you're very empathetic with people who are within your tribe or on your team, but the moment it becomes a conflict, you see it as us versus them, me versus you. And I can't empathize with somebody who's on the other side. And so when you start to look at it through a skill and you start to analyze your performance, you'll recognize you can be very empathetic in certain situation. But there's something about certain situations with certain people and certain conversations that hold you back. And then it's really, really empowering to recognize that this core fundamental human skill that is extremely valuable in difficult conversations can be learned. It's incredibly empowering.

It absolutely is. And you must be Nostradamus because I have a whole section on empathy that we will be going into. So I love that you gave us some, a forecast of what's to come. But empathy is critical. It can be learned. Even psychopaths can learn to pretend empathy, right? Yeah, yeah. So it is, it is a skill that I believe is underrated by a lot of people, especially in a business world.

Yeah, for sure. And I think a lot of times they think it's a weakness. But when you utilize it effectively and pair it with skills and it can be a massive strength.

Absolutely. I always described it like a knife.

Right.

A chef could use it to create beautiful food, but a murderer could use it to hurt people. If you over project empathy and try to manipulate. So there, there's a fine, it's an art like how to use it, when to use it and to use it with authenticity and genuine care for the well being of others. And that, that's what I would recommend for. That's I think that's what we should all do. So. So what type of negotiations do you typically engage in? Or is there not a typical negotiation?

Well, for me, I look at negotiation as a life philosophy. So it's not necessarily a skill or a process, even though it clearly is to me, it's a philosophy that I use to navigate the world and all of my interpersonal interactions. So I define negotiation as anytime you're having a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something. So for me, it's just different types of negotiations in different parts of my life. So for me, as a husband and a father of an eight year old and a three year old, constantly negotiating bedtime. What are we eating, we eating with Whitney, who's taking care of the kids, who's driving them, where, those type of things. So those are everyday negotiations that are happening at work now. I have a team that handles the majority of the business negotiations I might swing in when it is like there's something big or special. But my team usually handles the day to day transactional deals, the trainings, the consulting and that type of stuff. If it's a media deal though, because now we're not. We really started off with the mentality that we're going to make the majority of our money off of training and development. So the sales team would handle the trainings and the development, like that type of stuff. But really the majority of our money now is coming through media deals. We are more a media company than anything else because when you think about the podcast, the 47 LinkedIn learning courses, the deals with Audible and things like that, that's where the majority of our exposure comes from. So we're now making revenue from that, and that revenue makes more revenue because people know us from the podcast, know us from LinkedIn, and then they book us for trainings and things like that. So those bigger media deals, that's usually where I'll step in and have those types of negotiations. But those are pretty rare. Just a handful of times every year, the most important negotiations I'm having are day to day negotiations with my team, making sure that everybody is on the same page, we're rowing in the same direction, we are empathizing with people who are going through difficult times, understanding their situation and gathering information and making good decisions without seeming pushy. So for example, we had somebody whose partner had a very serious medical issue, we had somebody who had a recent death and things like that. And for us as a team, we want to be able to understand, empathize, provide support, while at the same Time tending to the everyday business functionality that's required. And we have to have tough conversations about that too. So it's really the everyday conversations for me that are the most impactful negotiations. Because if you're not managing those well, the relationship falls apart, business falls apart, and things get really bad really quickly.

Very true. I mean, humans are also multi dimensional. And so that's another critical part of your daily negotiations as well, I have to say. Well, first of all, congrats on all the media, the momentum you're building. I'm so proud. And that's incredible. As you should be because you're such a top negotiator. So I'm so happy to see that. And also on the front of negotiating with kids, they're definitely some of the toughest negotiations I've had. So I don't know, I don't know if you agree with that, but like I can negotiate a hundred million dollar term sheet and then when it comes negotiating with my kids, it's like, oh my gosh, it's a whole new level.

Yeah. You know why Janice can't get rid of them.

That's true. They're yours.

My, my thing is I have a great relationship with the boys. And I was joking yesterday. I was like, I was saying to myself, you know, there are consequences to being a good parent. There are positive consequences. Obviously the child grows up well adjusted, secure attachment, et cetera, et cetera. But then on the other side too, you have the fact that any spare moment that they see you have, they want that time, they want to spend that time with you. But it's a beautiful thing, but it's really challenging because it is incredibly draining emotionally. And when you think about it through the lens of psychology, you have the phenomenon of ego depletion. As the day goes on, you are using cognitive resources and you have less emotional and mental bandwidth. As the day goes on, every decision you make takes a little bit from that gas tank. And the majority of times we're having tough conversations with family members, whether it's your partner or your kids. It's after you've gone through a day of making high level decisions over and over and over again. So they need you at your best when cognitively and emotionally you're at your worst. So it's really tough. It takes a new level of emotional intelligence and resilience to just stay there and stay present and empathize and listen when everything in your body and mind is telling you to do the opposite.

Truly, ego depletion and decision fatigue, like all together, bundled up as you come home to face yet more negotiations. That's what makes it so much fun to be parents. I mean, yeah, my dad always said when you become a parent, you whatever patience you think you have, you need to double that. And it's still not enough. And I thought, well, not when it comes to me. I'm a perfect child. But, yeah, you know, must be my brother and sisters you're talking about. So how, let's see, have you received formal training? Which, you know, I would think law school itself is a training, but, you know, anything involving that negotiation skills or conflict resolution and maybe real life training as well?

Yeah, well, law school can be good negotiation training. And I think a lot of people who are not in law, they assume that we get trained on how to negotiate effectively in law school because people will just assume a lawyer knows how to negotiate. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Most people graduate from law school never taking a negotiation or dispute resolution class. It's not required, it's not mandated, really. And no, it's a bizarre oversight. And what's interesting is that osu, the Ohio State University, the Moritz College of Law, we have the number one dispute resolution program in the country. So I was trained by some of the brightest minds in negotiation and conflict resolution. And whenever people say, oh, Kwame, you really know your stuff, I think about the schooling that I received from Moritz, and I realized I could not not be really good at this, considering the caliber of teacher and professor and mentor that I had throughout this journey. And then when I was becoming a mediator, I was certified through a multi day mediation program as well and had lots of on hand training. So that was really beneficial. And since then, the majority of the training that I receive is through this podcast. Janice, my. My job, I created this job, and my job now is to wake up every morning and interview the best and brightest in the world in negotiation and figure out what it is that they do in their space to be effective. And what it allows me to do is when I encounter a difficult conversation, I'm thinking about episodes. I'm thinking about a real estate negotiation tactic, a hostage negotiation tactic, and something a therapist told me on the podcast too. And I weave that together and put it into action in a negotiation. And so the, the skill set that I've developed, it, it was developed with a lot of intentionality, first from school, but I think a lot of us just not only in negotiation, but in life in general, we don't recognize the fact that if we're not intentional about continuing our education past formal education. We're just going to be going downhill. We are just going downhill. And when you think about the studies of mastery by Anders Ericsson more than he came up with the 10,000 hours rule.

Yes.

Things people must say with that. They say, oh, 10,000 hours, that's not it. It's 10,000 hours of deliberate practice, intention, intent of getting better. And so when you think about that level, really, most of us are just coasting by on what's called the okay plateau. I am just now at a state of proficiency that is good enough to be functional in my role, and that is it. But when you think about true mastery, there's intent behind it, and it's up to you now as an individual to be the person driving that. But with all of the other business and life responsibilities that we have, it becomes incredibly difficult to do it. So I just had to focus on the podcast learning in that way. I was at the beginning of my career for the first, first probably eight, eight to 10 years, I was trying to hit that goal of reading one book every single week. And that was incredibly helpful in just giving me a good solid foundation, not just in negotiation, but business and other, other areas. So that's that. I drive forward with my continued growth and education.

So school set you up and then. But the critical part is you continue this trajectory of learning and integrating all aspects of what you're learning into this, honing in this, to this art, which, you know how you just said you get to interview the most foremost experts in negotiation. I get to live in your shoes for this moment where I get to interview you. So guess what, principal for a day. This is fun. I can see why you like this. What, what an incredible learning experience. And humbling for me as well, for sure. So this is going to be going into empathy now, which you alluded to earlier. This is all relating to personal traits and values. And would you describe yourself as someone who's naturally empathetic?

Not originally, but through practice, it's become a habit. And I think that's something that I really want to hammer home with people. When you think about what you are, who you are as a person, we are what we do regularly. And I wasn't naturally empathetic, but by engaging in empathy with intentionality for years now, my. I've changed my default state to become naturally empathetic. So it took time, but I'm glad I am where I am. But I also recognize that with these core skills, empathy, listening, those type of things, there's no such thing as perfect. You're always going to be getting better. And you're. As you engage in these conversations wholeheartedly, you're always going to be confronted with your shortcomings as well. And if you have that growth mindset, you can use those opportunities to improve, recognize where you're falling short, and then try to build those skills to make sure that you don't make the same mistake twice.

Yes. What are some of the personal values that guide your approach to negotiations?

I would say it is flexibility. Flexibility would be the value because a lot of times we have a rigid approach to these conversations. It has to be structured in this way. I have to use these kinds of techniques. I'm limited in that type of way. And when you are trying to overly control the process, overly control the responses from other people, making it too scripted and rigid, it usually comes about as a result of some level of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of losing control. But if you can rely on your skills, then you can make the effective read for that moment and then use the right skill to get you where you need to go. And so I would say that adaptability, that flexibility, that's a core value that helps me because at the end of the day, what's the goal of these conversations? It's to be effective. That's it. And so some people will say, do you always do this? Do you always do that? And my response is, I do whatever it takes to be effective in this moment with this person. And so it sounds very different depending on the situation. So when you think about it through the lens of cultural intelligence and code switching in the American business context, I would approach it one way. And I remember one time I had one of my employees, he came with me on a car ride with both of my parents in the car. And he was shocked at what he heard because my family were Caribbean American. And so we have a spicy conversation and he's like, are you all mad at each other? No, no, we're just talking.

It's just passion, lots of passion.

And so recognizing that the goal is efficacy and being willing to adapt and flow in order to be effective, I think that's. That's really my core value.

That sounds very Taoism and Bruce Lee. Be the water that flows. Every container you go, are you a martial artist? Fit into the container.

This is great. Yes. That's what I tell people all the time. I say, negotiation is shaped like water.

Oh, my gosh, look at you. Yeah.

Because when people engage us there, they don't Maybe other people on their team who aren't familiar with our methodology. They don't readily recognize that what they're experiencing is a negotiation or difficult conversation problem. But then when I break it down in this type of way, this. Then they start to understand it. So I quote Bruce Lee regularly.

Wisdom, for certain.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's cool.

Well, you know, my heritage. We. We all know Bruce Lee. We all know kung fu. I'm joking. We don't. It is very much embedded the Taoism into our. Our philosophies.

Yes.

So it's the Asian culture, which. I love that you said that as well, because I just interviewed someone that's been on your podcast, Gary Nosner. He's FBI, like, top hostage negotiator, and he said the same thing. Adaptability, being flexible. Because again, humans were emotional creatures and there's really not this, like, simple linear progression that our mind works, at least not most of the time. But that is why being adaptable enables you to be more effective.

Absolutely. And talk about. Talk about being able to flow and be effective. I think it's important to try to have as many diverse experiences as possible, learn as many different things as possible, because you'll be surprised in what way, in what scenario it will become effective. And so for me, learning about Taoism and Wu Wei and those types of methodologies has really informed my approach. So when I'm teaching Western business people how to negotiate, I won't address it specifically in that type of way, but you understand it. So I can adapt and flow in this conversation and recognize, yeah, it's the art of trying not to try in these conversations. Practicing hard and then letting go and flowing. It's. It's an incredible thing when you can allow yourself to do it. But that's a. That's a little bit of the sprinkle of the Eastern methodology into this heavily westernized type of concept.

That's true. And I'm a hybrid, so I appreciate both. But anyone that challenges that, the concept that flowing with the negotiation, anyone that does not agree with that should go out into the ocean. Ocean waves. You know, I talked about swimming the ocean. You try to fight that wave that comes at you, and then you watch the surfers that beautifully go in and out of waves, they're working with the flow of the waves. And so nature will teach you that. Right.

And it's a great metaphor for emotion management, too, because the. The harder we push back on the emotions that we're feeling and the emotions other people are feeling, the bigger the Wave becomes, you know, you have to have that humility to recognize that there's some forces of nature that cannot be controlled, that best can be managed. And if we can understand it, we can. We can flow with it, too.

Absolutely. And pay attention to the undercurrents, too, because that'll get you. Well. You're a beach person. I. I would think from Caribbean.

Yes. Yeah.

So how comfortable are you expressing your emotions or vulnerabilities, doing negotiations?

This is a great opportunity to be vulnerable, because it depends on the circumstance. So in business, I'm very vulnerable, very open. And I've come to recognize that I am very open and vulnerable in business because business does not necessarily, in most cases, touch a part of my heart that's very sensitive. So these conversations are going to be limited, more or less to the topic at hand. So I'm very free flowing with information, because when I think about it through the lens of strategic vulnerability, the more open and vulnerable I am, vulnerability is reciprocal in nature. It's more likely that the other person reciprocates. And negotiation being an information game, it helps both of us to solve problems and work together to find a mutually beneficial solution. But what I've recognized is that at home, I'm less willing to be vulnerable and share information just because of that closeness. So it's easier for me to be vulnerable in the workplace, but it's harder for me to be vulnerable at home. So I've been even, even up to this year, just working harder on sharing how I'm feeling, sharing what I'm thinking, and recognizing that there was this bias inside of me where I was saying, all right, if I share things at home, it's a sign of weakness. Like, I can't manage my own emotions. I can't solve this problem. No, that's my role, to solve my own problems. And I thought I was protecting Whitney in that way. Just saying, no, this is my problem. You're a doctor. You're busy. You're burnt out. I'm not going to put my needs on you, too. You got two little kids and 1300 patients who are always asking you for things. I'm not going to add to that. But then I recognized that it was actually creating more of an emotional burden on her, seeing me kind of shut down or become a little bit more stoic and not understand why the catastrophizing that would happen in her head when she's saying, what's wrong with Kwame? Is it this is it? That is that. That was far worse and far More damaging than me sharing what was upsetting me at the moment. So that vulnerability at home is something that I'm growing into. And it's constant struggle, but it's been incredibly, incredibly rewarding the more I've opened up.

And it's tough to do, but also very understandable that in the intuitive portion of you want to be strong because you are this strong figure in the house and you don't want to burden other people. And so you probably are being empathetic by putting a stronger exterior out. But in the end, I guess she appreciates that you show your human side as well. Yeah.

And Janice, one of the things too is Whitney. Whitney and I, we've been together for a long time. We got married on graduation day from undergrad. So she. So in, in many ways, we. We grew up together. So she knows me in, in more ways than most. So she can make reads that other people can't. So for other people, they might say Kwame. Not only is Kwame okay, Kwame might be happy. Yeah, they might label Kwame as happy because I can put on this professional front. But Whitney can see through those cracks. She knows those tells. And so the things that I can hide from other people, I can't hide from her, which makes it more challenging.

Same as my husband, almost 20 years. He knows all my weaknesses, but he also sees the blind spots that I may not see. So you're a loving critic, right?

Exactly. Exactly.

So in your experience.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before. But you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights, giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.