Powerful Lessons From a Negotiation Expert in the Healthcare Sector with Stacey (Boyd) Lee, JD

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main first, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership and and lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Stacy, thanks for joining us today.

Glad to be here.

We are glad to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name is Stacey Lee. I'm a professor at the Johns Hopkins Carey Business School. I also have a joint appointment at the Bloomberg School of Public Health where I teach health law. But most importantly, what I'm most passionate about is negotiations in a healthcare settings.

Yes, this is great. And just looking at the prep, Stacey, you have some really, really interesting perspectives on this. But let's, let's set the stage first before we get into the nitty gritty of this. So when we're talking about negotiations in healthcare, what do those typically look like?

What we're talking about is healthcare to me is really comprised of three main pillars. You've got the delivery of care, the practice of medic, and the business of health. So whether it's organizations that coordinate care with departments within the hospital and external entities, whether it's the people and the hospitals engaged in the diagnosing, treating, promoting and maintaining of care, or whether it's just the business side of health care, there are a series of conversations that exist from the doctor patient level all the way up to government and hospital levels. And, and what I found those conversations are really challenging to do well, definitely.

And what would you say are some of the biggest challenges?

Some of the biggest challenges are that at the end of the day, what you're negotiating over is people's health, their lives. And it's challenging because the go to skills for negotiations in healthcare usually are derived from the business practices that if you've walked into any graduate business school or you've seen any negotiations, associations, book in an airport usually has very business or transaction focused approaches. And I gotta tell you, I was a litigator for 15 years and I was in house and the strategies and approaches that made me pretty successful as a litigator or in a boardroom. What I found was when I entered academia or when I started engaging with healthcare professionals as a baseball player, my batting average hit a slump. I just did not have the tools with the mindset to reap the same doable and durable agreements that I was seeing outside of healthcare. And it was that gap in my skills that made me really think we need a framework here for folks in healthcare to have these very nuanced, very critical conversations.

Well, I agree. It's so important and I really want to home in on that really important point that you made because clearly you're an expert negotiator, 15 years of litigation experience in house. So you're one of those lawyers who has the unique ability to not only negotiate in the legal space, but you have to understand how companies work. You have to understand the nuances of business. So you're already coming into these conversations very skilled. But what we have to recognize is that they, even though there are going to be commonalities just in the way that we interact with humans, we have to recognize that we have to tweak it for different situations. I mean, the example that I'll give is, you know, where I worked really, really hard to become a lawy, just for Whitney to use it as an insult in difficult conversations like, you sound like a lawyer. I'm like, that's what I was trained to do.

I hear you.

And so we have to be flexible. So let's get a little bit more specific. So what are some of those skills that worked really well in the corporate world and the litigation space that did not translate so well in healthcare?

Sure. I took a rather distributive approach to negotiations. The more I get, the happier I am, the happier my client is. And walking out if my bat and was good enough is something I do without blinking an eye. So I really usually talk about before you use any strategy, what are the three questions that I continually ask myself? How important is the outcome? What are my long term goals? And how important is the relationship? Well, Kwame, if I'm not overly concerned with getting a holiday card from you next year, the outcome is going to be the most important. And I'm going to try to extract as much value out of whatever transaction or conversation that we are having in healthcare. It doesn't work that way. When you have to coordinate care among radiology and cardiology, you need to understand what is going on. When you are negotiating your call schedule with your colleague that you're going to work with, the relationship matters. And when a doctor is talking to a patient, just like me and my kids, I could try and force them to eat their vegetables, which, you know, might in the short term get me what I want. But a doctor needs the buy in of the patient to adhere to whatever that prescription is. So a transactional approach there doesn't work. At the end of the day, health care relations negotiations require a relational as opposed to a transactional mindset.

Makes so much sense. And it's, it's really interesting. The three questions that you ask, I really like them. How important is the outcome? What are the long term goals and the relationship goals? And I was smiling very broadly because it's like some of the most fun negotiations are when the going to sound horrible, when the relationship part doesn't really matter that much. It's like, okay, cool, now this is a tug of war. It's very strategically simple. It's like a war of attrition. I don't care if you like me. Okay, cool. But it's completely different in the medical space, you know, and the thing is too, you could, let's say hypothetically, you brought that same mentality into these conversations and you managed to still be effective. The relationship would be damaged because they'll say, yeah, Lacy gets the, Stacy gets the job done, but you know, she doesn't care about human life. You know, it could seem really callous and disconnected. So there's an entire, in addition to a strategic shift, there's a switch in tone that needs to come as well. And as you were starting to make this transition and starting to recognize that you needed to kind of shift your approach, your negotiation strategy, what was the most difficult, difficult aspect of that transition for you?

My personality. I am a litigator and for me at heart, and luckily becoming a mom did help in rounding out some of the more transactional approaches I had to things. But to me, getting the most value or not leaving unclaimed value on the table was important. So for me, watching you trying to ferret out what may be a point of weakness, attacking your batna, making that seem as unattractive as possible was very important to me. What I found in healthcare is that's Very different. And on top of that, the mindset of the folks in health care, I am in awe of them. In the last pandemic, you did not have outside of financial institutions the banner that heroes work here. When the providers were showing up without ppe, when they were working shift after shift, that relationship, the feeling that they felt for people that they hadn't even met yet, that focus on how am I going to interact with you? Was so strong that they showed up day after day as opposed to the business communities and states having negotiations or bidding wars over the availability events or ventilators. So to me, those two mindsets within the same industry during COVID really typified the difference between a business approach and a relational approach.

I love this for a lot of reasons. And let me start off with your self awareness too because we laughed at the fact that you said your personality, but it's true, right? Because essentially your response is genetics made it difficult for me to make this transition. And I think there, there are two ways that we can look at this. I think sometimes people could say I am this way, I'm this type of personality and things like that. And they use that as a self fulfilling prophecy, a limiting belief and they use it to endorse their own rigidity. But what you realize is like, yes, I am a litigator at heart, the distributive style of negotiation might come more naturally to me and still I can transition as necessary. And I think it's really helpful to recognize and probably empowering to recognize that, hey, that I can make this shift. And I've seen it because now I have children and I can't engage in a distributive negotiation with a toddler because I'll lose the negotiation and my mind at the same time.

Very much so.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

And I really like that you mentioned empowerment. Because I did come up with a framework for negotiating in the healthcare space and I call it the here approach. NH just stands for healthcare, but E is for empowerment. Then acknowledge and recast. So because negotiation, one of the beautiful things about is just as you mentioned, Kwame, it is a skill there is necessary, I think pre work you need to go into for these types of negotiations. And one is being a very relational mindset, meaning I need to step outside of the world of me, one that I'm very comfortable with, and focus on not just you, which I think a lot of frameworks talk about, but us. How do we relate to each other? Oftentimes they say step into the shoes of the other party. Yeah, I got that. I can do that. But how are we going to work together? Because once I check in, am I in a position where I can engage with the other side with an open mind? So what's an internal checklist that I can go through so that I can lower my defensiveness? Because if I feel not empowered, I'm going to hold on to my ideas. There's no way you're going to be able to rent space in my brain with your ideas because, dude, I don't want to hear it and I'm just going to verbally vomit all over you about how right I am. So I needed to come up with a checklist. How can I lower my defensiveness? How can I articulate my wants so the other side will want to hear me in a way that will rent space in your brain? And how am I feeling? And you talked about that. Self awareness. Do I feel scared? Do I feel disempowered? Being cognizant of that before I step into the negotiation really goes a long way into what type of conversation we can have.

Stacey, you know what I love about this is that a couple of things. First of all, you didn't go in there with a fluffy idea saying, I need to be more empathetic, I need to be more collaborative. And then I'll go into the conversation and kind of freestyle and hope I figure out what that means in the moment. And maybe this, this is the fact that you're a lawyer. We love frameworks. Step by step. This is great. So you said it's the here approach here. Empower, acknowledge and recast.

Yes. So the internal checklist and then the external. What are the biases that I might have about you? What don't I know about you? And that's just borrowing from the depositions. What questions do I need to Ask. And if I go in thinking any guy who wears a gray turtleneck is way too stylish for his own good, what answers do I need to get from you to let go of some of the assumptions that I've made? So I go through that checklist, and hopefully then I come in empowered. Meaning I'm not looking to you for external validation. I've checked in with how I feel. I have a list of questions that helps me figure out about you. The more empowered I am, the less defensive I am. And if I'm not defensive, then I can move into a. Which is acknowledgement. I can see and I can hear you, because now I'm not clinging or trying to defend my answer. So much so I'm like, hey, Kwame, what's going on? I can. I'm not great at being empathetic, but I can at least listen with an open mind. I can watch your verbal and nonverbal actions. So I have space now to take you in, hear, acknowledge, and understand what you are saying. And hopefully you reciprocate and do the same for me.

Absolutely. And I think this really goes down to what it means to be a conversational leader. So when we're in the conversation, you are at the same time demonstrating how one should negotiate. And so they follow your lead. Oh, Stacy's approaching it this way. She gave me this opportunity to share. She's asking questions. She's listening. I should do the same to her. And then it makes it more likely that they're going to reciprocate. And I love the fact that you brought in biases to this, and your analysis of biases isn't limited to just protected classes of citizens. Race, gender, you know, sexual orientation, those type of things. We're talking very broadly about biases. And now I think this brings a lot of legitimacy into it because you're coming from the legal space, the business world, and then to healthcare, too. You're. There's a strategic lens that's brought into this discussion. And so I think a lot of these conversations about biases can be almost. I rolled away because people say, oh, this is this PC kind of nonsense. No, this. If you want to win, you should consider this. And yes, if you're a good person, you should want to consider it, too. And so can you paint the picture of what is the risk of not considering the biases that are at the table within yourself or within others?

Oh, sure. And in healthcare, it's even higher. But if I come in with the idea that anyone who wears glasses or anyone who's in finance doesn't is very aggressive and offensive. You may make a legitimate offer to me that I don't have the capacity to hear because I'm not open. You've made a legitimate open offer. Well, why don't we do this? And I'm misjudging it or second guessing it, so that's in some way that it staves off creativity. I. We are not open to the possibilities because I think I already know what all your answers are. Well, if I already know what your answers are, then I'm not doing a good job of seeing you and hearing what you're actually saying. Not what I think or I preconceived you to say. So that's a real problem. And in health care it's even worse. And you did mention that there are certain classes that probably experience a bit more bias than others. But in healthcare there are entire genders and races that even within healthcare there's an operating set of biases sometimes when they walk into a healthcare provider's office. So just being aware of that when you are diagnosing people, not minimizing their pain if they happen to be a female, or minimizing the amount of painkillers they should be given because certain races are believed to have a higher pain tolerance, it allows you to create, to treat the person rather than the stereotype in front of you.

Absolutely. And I think if we bring that same lens too, because to negotiations as, let's say, medical professionals, it helps them, the acknowledgment of biases helps them to make more accurate diagnoses. And here as a negotiator, we need to make accurate diagnoses as well. And if we are, if we make improper diagnoses, then we're going to solve the wrong problems or create problems in the process of problem solving. Right. So it's so important. So I'm glad that you were able to paint that picture. It's really, really important.

So hopefully after you've acknowledged me, I've acknowledged you, and I want to be clear about this empowerment piece. This is an iterative process. I can go in feeling very Zen like and then you trigger me as you're want to do, I've got to remind myself, take a step back, take a breath and then re engage with you and not whatever emotion or whatever triggering event that I've had. So this whole process of acknowledgment and empowerment, of lowering your defensiveness, of engaging with the other side will occur throughout the negotiation. So it's not a one and done. So it requires you to be actively mindful and present the entire negotiation.

And Stacy, that's the hard part because anybody can be Zen for 90 seconds and then, you know, most people might be able to behave themselves for 90 seconds, but once you get to that 91st second, they're going to say something that offends you. And then it's like, you know, all that stuff Stacy told me, forget it. Yeah, my biases are taking over. This person's awful. Right. And so it's. I think it's the discipline to maintain this form. And that's one of the things that I, when I think about, you know, I'm a chess nerd. I talk about this all the time. But a lot of times in chess it's not really, especially at like my novice level, we're not talking about like making amazing moves. Usually it's just a game of who can hold their form and their position the longest without making a mistake. And the same holds true in negotiations. I can't really think about amazing zingers that I've said in negotiations that turn the tide of the negotiation. It's no, I've stuck to the form and the framework long enough and good things happen. And that's really it. So I really like the fact that you're talking about it being an iterative process. You could start really Zen and you will. I don't even think we should say we. You could, you will lose it at some point. And it's about the ability to refocus, get back on track and continue performing at a high level with consistency. That's the key.

Yes. And when you engage with me as a person, I engage with you. The level of trust and openness grows throughout the conversation of it being an interaction between two people. And what that does is it gives us, over time, the original idea of the problem that you may have come in with, and I came in with may change and evolve as I begin to understand more of your perspective. We share, we let we become more creative in what is possible. And that's really the recast part in a transactional negotiation. It's one pie and we're divvying it up. Then the literature kind of shifted to interest based negotiations, which is great. However, I still see a thread of transaction in that because you still have your interest, I have mine, and you're a chess player, we may be trading them back and forth, not a chess player. So help me out. If that analogy didn't carry all the way through, but by taking a relational approach, I've invited you to join me, create a third story which may be very different from the perception of the problem that we both walked in with. And that is recasting. And when you get to that part, it is only then that you really begin the negotiation. And you may be negotiating an issue that is wildly different than it was two hours ago when you first sat down in the room.

Oh, I am so intrigued, because now I'm understanding really what you mean with recasting. Because it. Tell me if I'm on the right track. Because when you. When you call it recasting, it's almost like, hey, this is a story, a narrative. We all had our characters and our things that we're playing. Nope. We are recasting the people within this story. You thought you were this, and you thought I was this, but we're actually this. And this is the collaboratively created narrative of us working together to solve the problem.

Yes, and the problem is something that we are mutually defining rather than. My problem is, hey, I want to get as much as I can for as little as I can. And you have your version of the problem. We have now created. An issue that involves us both, is a joint narrative, and we will solve it in a way. And I don't like the idea of winning. We will arrive at a successful resolution. And I don't use winning, because this confession, like, 890. As soon as you say when I want to win more than you, so it just kicks up the competitive juices in me. Success. However, there's expansiveness in that term. What is successful for you and successful for me? There's enough room for it to accommodate all of our needs without it being a tallying up the score. You win at chess when you take my. See, you shouldn't have mentioned that, because I'm trying to make the analogy, and you're like, stace, not your game. When I take your queen close, that.

Means that you pretty much killed me at that point.

All right, well, whenever I take your piece, we'll just leave that analogy. But whenever I win, I have claimed as much value. Successful is a doable and durable agreement that will stand the test of time. And both people walk away feeling empowered, acknowledged. And guess what? Our relationship is stronger now. Not every relationship or every negotiation calls for this. Because when I go down to buy a Hyundai, I'm trying to get it for as cheap as possible. But in the healthcare space, in the practice of medicine, the delivery of care, and the business of health, there Are more opportunities for these types of negotiations than in any other industry?

Absolutely. And the stakes are so high. Yes, they are so high. And now let's. Let me push you on this, Stacy. So let's say we have Stacy, Monday, January 9, negotiating with Stacy, January 9, 2010. Let's say back in the day when we were with you were a buzzsaw. So how do you bring this same methodology into a negotiation with somebody who has that more distributive I want to win mentality?

Okay, well, my first thing is for Stacy of 2010 is, and by this, you know, being a litigator, I've got to ask questions. What do I care about? What's important to me? If Stacy from 2010 is coming at this from we need to improve efficiency. Efficiency is the most important thing. And I'm coming at it from a patient care point of view. We're going to miss each other. I have not framed anything that I want to say in a way that is going to rent space in Stacy 2010's brain. So framing of the issue is incredibly important. What engages her, what is important to her. And when I begin to find that, then I've got to begin to have a dialogue of. She's like, efficiency, efficiency is important because our ROI is higher. And I was like, that's great. And if we can improve patient care, we're going to get more patients, we will get better providers. So I always try to figure out what the other person cares about and I look for value laden words that they're going to mention. I ask them how they define that. So when I care about efficiency, help me out. So what is efficiency look like to you? Because the worst thing that I want to do is us have a negotiation when we're using the same word back and forth and you have your definition of it and I have mine. So by having you define efficiency or quality, that gives me something to work with, to begin to build a relationship with you through words and values that mean something to you.

This is great because what you're doing is you're, you're speaking the same language. And so we might be speaking English, but that does not mean we're speaking the same language. And it's so important. And a couple of things with that little role play, that self role play you did is that you slowed down the pace because people typically who are more distributive in style, I recognize they start, they move pretty quickly and if you're on the other side of that, it's kind of Like a boulder going down a hill, it just generates momentum. It gets harder and harder to stop. And so by asking these questions and slowing down and getting an understanding of what it is that they want, want and why, but also taking the time to define those words. What does this word mean to you? What does that word means to you? Not only are you getting valuable information, but you're slowing down the pace of the conversation, which is really, really important. And I think that calms everybody down, too.

Yes. And what you did was masterful there as well. You know, you match and raise and match and lower in conversations. You want to mirror the other side. You have a very soothing, very tempered voice. And in time, I might start out really fired up, but I'm going to. Eventually, you can match to say, hey, I got the emotion that you're feeling, but then I'm going to follow you as you begin. It's hard for me to stay at the 10th decibel when you're responding to me, not in a patronizing way, but in, I understand. I got you. And you have slowed down the conversation. So negotiating with someone like you would drive me up the wall. No desire to do it. I like to negotiate fast and quick. I'm at my best that way. Negotiating with someone like you, that calm, even tempered, oh, that would drive me up the wall. But it's hard for me to sustain my level of energy. When you're nodding, you're affirming, you're asking questions. I need you off balance. So one of the very effective ways in negotiation is really slowing down through questions, but also in tone and mannerisms or ramping it up, which is what I like to do.

Exactly. And see, this is such a good point, Stacy, because it's so important to recognize this when there are certain paces that people prefer. And if you're up against somebody who has a much faster pace, they're used to people matching that. That's. That's where they're at home. And a lot of times, if you ramp up and you try to sustain, like, that level of pace and energy when you're not used to it, it destabilizes you, and you start to stumble over your words. You start to get. Make mistakes, say the wrong thing at the wrong time and those type of things. So it's really important to understand your pace, too. But like you said, it's really important to at some point match it and then pull it down. Right. And so I think that's almost like a. It's. It's like a sign of respect, seeing what the person wants and giving it to them, but also recognizing what the conversation needs and giving the conversation what it needs to. And so you're right. So if somebody is coming in really hype, I'll match that energy so they know that I recognize that urgency. And then they say something. I'm like, hold on one second. You said something really interesting there. And I want to make sure I get that. And so then it's, it's like, okay, Kwame's slowing me down. And even though it annoys me that he's slowing me down, the reason he's slowing me down is because he cares enough to know what I'm talking about, you know, and so that's, that's one of those things. This is a really expert level point because I don't think people pay enough attention to, like, the pace of the conversation and what that means. What's the appropriate pace? What is their preferred pace? What's your preferred pace? And then what's required for this situation in order to be effective. So I'm really glad you brought that one up. That's.

That's really important and that's beautiful because that goes so much to acknowledgement when you match. Hey, I got you. I understand. So I understand your urgency. And then I'm going to follow it up with a question that shows I want to learn more in terms of valid. I'm like, yeah, can't stand his slow approach. But he got me. I appreciate that. And that is very powerful in negotiations and something that is very important. If a doctor comes in and a patient is really fired up, match the intensity and then bring it down. And I learned this technique not through negotiations, but a book called Caveman in the Crib. And we have twins. And they said before, you know, you have the ability to really master speech when your kid, you have a nine month old in the crib and they're screaming, go in there. Match the intensity, not the volume. But hey, I get that you're really upset. And they're like, yeah, mom, you're right, I am upset. When people know that you match or understand their emotion that grants you that time to then follow up with the Chanel. Tell me more.

Yes. Oh, this is so good. First thing I'm going to do tonight, when Dominic wakes up in the middle of the night, I'm going to go and scream in that baby's face. You like that, Dominic? You like that? No, this is really good. It's so important. And let's think about how the body Responds to motion, too. Because a lot of times our understanding of a situation kind of follows our body's response. So it's really interesting. So imagine if there's like, a house is on fire. Nobody's coming up saying, hey, Stacy, how's it going, by the way? Massive, massive fire. That's not how it works. Everybody's panicked, moving fast, right? And if somebody's talking really fast, if they're talking fast and loud, what often happens, not only is it with the, like, the pace that we have to pay attention to, but what's happening beneath the surface is heart rates are elevating. It's a stressful situation. That's how the body's responding to this situation. And so by turning down, like, the tone and pace and everything like that, what you're doing is you're calming down that stress response that's naturally happening, and that's. It's really important. But like you said, we're matching it first so people can understand that you respect the gravity of the situation. Because if something serious is happening and you come in too chill, sometimes the person's like, I cannot stand this person, because he doesn't not get it. He thinks, you know, he's sitting here on a beach and I'm struggling here, you know, so, like, matching that tone and pulling it down is important. And one of the things that you talked about that I think ties into this, and I'd like to see if there's. If you see this nexus to the empowerment piece, I feel like it's easier for people to feel more comfortable when they feel safer. And you're doing that in this framework?

Yes, absolutely. And again, the defensiveness that I feel is either you're not listening to me. I feel that there's a power imbalance. I feel that there's something operating that has me at a disadvantage. And when I am concerned about that, the ability for me to feel open, for me to feel creative, that is all taking a backseat. All of my energy is more in a protective mode. So when you acknowledge. When I feel empowered, I can breathe. Because brilliant ideas are seldom born out of a screaming match. So if we can be open, if we cannot get at it in a. I've got to protect and hold on to what I have. But, hey, I'm willing to be open. Let's brainstorm together. That's where the creativity comes with. That's where you get agreements that at the end of the day will stand the test of time, because you can get to agreement. But I call them rotten Agreements. If you're having the same conversation over and over again, that's a lousy agreement. If the people haven't changed, the situation hasn't changed, then the agreement should hold.

This is so good. And I love the fact that you're focusing on being open and creative, because somebody might come and say, hey, Kwame, I'm trying to be creative, and I had a creative option, but they just keep on batting it down. Well, did you turn down the emotional temperature in the room? Do they feel safe with you? If you say the right thing at the wrong time, it doesn't work. So we have to recognize that we need to create an environment within this relationship that we have where the person feels safe enough to be open to creativity. And we don't talk. We talk a lot about be creative, come with multiple options, things like that. That's very common in the negotiation space. But in the past, we haven't, as a collective negotiation community, we haven't really talked about what we can do to create the proper psychological environment to maximize openness and creativity. They're not going to be ready if they're feeling triggered.

And brainstorming is tough. If I'm only still brainstorming, what benef fits me, because you are not going to be as open to those ideas. So, again, that openness, by us viewing it as our shared problem and taking a brainstorming approach to that sparks more creativity. I'm open to some of the thoughts and ideas and concerns that you have. And just like this conversation, you can start out with, hey, this is where I think it's going to go. But if you're not focused on getting your agenda out or me getting my agenda out. We both have an interest in negotiation. We both trust and respect each other. Let's see. Where this conversation goes is a very different interaction than, hey, I want to plug me, and you want to plug you.

Absolutely. And again, it goes back to recasting. Everybody comes in with a story, and usually it's like a hero, villain, arc. I'm the hero, you're the villain. But they have their own story, and I might be a villain in their story. Right. So we have to take that time to set the stage. This is really, really important. Oh, this is gold. This is good. Okay, Stacy, so last question. So let's say there's somebody who is sitting there listening to this episode with their, you know, their arms crossed, their eyebrows down. They're like, I like the way I am. I'm very transactional, you know, and it's been working for me and I'm kind of scared to open up. I'm not bought in yet. What is one thing that you would say to that person to get them to try to adopt this new approach?

What would I ask someone to get them to buy into this approach? And especially if you are in the healthcare space. So if you're highly transactional, if you are The Stacy of 2010, why should this approach be be of interest to you? Why give any thought at all to the relational approach? Transactional approaches allows you to only get at the expense of others and the relationship as a whole is not going to grow. And the creativity that you're going to get out of that deal is only the creativity that you've put in in isolation. When you begin to focus on how you interact with the other person, you have created a new vision, you've created a new issue and that you can both brainstorm and react to. And it enhances the odds of future value. Get out of that relationship. I can never go back to the dealer that sent that sold me my Honda. However, if I have a good relationship, I can go back and I get the benefit of your openly exchanged and freely offered knowledge, guidance, ideas, rather than you reacting to what I put on the table.

I love it. And you know, this is one of those situations, Stacy, for me as like a podcast where I have to execute some restraint because I know we're at time and I want to go deeper. So we'll just have to have you back on. Before you go, can you let the listeners know how they can get in touch and share a little bit more of your work? Sure.

You can always find me on LinkedIn at Stacy and Stacy Lee and I have a negotiations website, Stacy B. Lee, you can find me there.

Awesome, Stacy, really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much for having me.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited, excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.