Preparation: The Game-Changer in Negotiation with Jodie W. McLean

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership and lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Foreign.

Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name is Jody McLean and I guess I wear the title of CEO of Edens. Edens is a retail real estate owner, operator, developer of a nationally really leading portfolio of 110 places. But truly I feel like I every day get to work and being a community builder.

Listeners, one of the many things I love about Jodi is that she is very, very humble. So I want you to put on your salesperson, CEO hat and help the listeners fully understand the breadth of what you do. Because the kinds of deals that you're doing and you and your team are doing are vast. You have a large organization, multiple cities. You just did a west coast expansion. And so for somebody who is listening, who doesn't understand really what types of commercial real estate deals that you're doing, can you paint a picture of what that would look like in their community?

Sure. So today. Thank you. EDENS is in 13 major markets across the country. We're from Boston, suburban New York, dc, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Houston, Austin, Dallas, Denver, and then up the west coast, San Diego, Louisiana, San Francisco and Seattle. So we own about 15 million square feet of real estate, all open air, retail and mixed use projects. So we have projects in places that are range from probably 150,000 square feet to places that are 2 million. And the largest place that we're involved in will eventually be close to 8 million square feet. Not that Eden zones, all the square footage but we are active typically in land assemblage and putting together entitlements, putting together design, and I think, most importantly, putting together the vision of what this place can be and can look like. I am sitting here, so I'll talk a little bit as I look around where I sit most days when I come to the office. But I'm in a place called Junior Market, which is in Northeast D.C. and our vision here is really, can we design what inclusive development, inclusive community really looks like? And that is a vision that goes well beyond buildings, well beyond curation. It thinks about. It thinks about the activities that happen here, the people we inspire to come here, and I think most importantly, how we think about people engaging in a community from very diverse backgrounds.

That's powerful. That is powerful. I appreciate that context and I think that's going to be really helpful for the listeners too, because it shows that there is a passion and a purpose behind the deals that you are doing. And I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with you and the team hanging out in Scottsdale earlier this year.

That's awesome.

It was so much fun because we, we, we had the presentation in the morning, then I just hang out, hung out with the team all day and night.

You got to come to a costume party.

Okay.

A bit. We're fun clients.

Exactly. Very fun. It was, it was a, it was a blast. And so I think that's one of the things that I thought was so impressive because your, your team, sometimes they're doing deals up to in like hundreds of millions of dollars, but everybody's so cool and fun to spend time with. And that speaks to the culture within Edens that you've created. That's not easy to do. So kudos on that because you can. Being there, I could feel that energy, which is great. But now hearing this story, now it makes sense. That type of culture within an organization doesn't happen by accident. The culture is in the communities that you're cultivating and creating. That doesn't happen by accident. And what you've been able to do is you've created synergy between all of these, these different metrics, diversity and inclusion, the actual rate of return for investors, the. The feelings of positivity and passion and purpose by the people who are in the organization. And so by being very intentional about paying attention to those KPIs and looking at the data and being strategic about how you could get all of those things in alignment, you've been able to outperform the market and do extremely well. For the business. And one of the things that's really important when it comes to all of those things is being prepared. And one of the things I really admired about you and your team when it came to the big negotiations that you did was everybody was mindful about preparing for these deals. And so, based on your experience negotiating real estate deals and all of your years of experience in business, tell us about preparedness and the value that it brings.

I wholeheartedly believe preparedness is a mother of opportunity. What has been so important for me in my career and negotiating is to really, first and foremost understand what it is that I want, that we want at a really high strategic level. Not every detail along the way, but I think if you truly understand the outcome that you want, and then you're prepared to really understand the outcome that the person across the table wants, you can change the dynamic from sitting across the table to scooching your chair around and sitting next to the person that you're negotiating with. And I think that's lost on a lot of people, actually, Kwame, that people always feel like a negotiation is setting up a dynamic against one another, where I've always tried to set up a dynamic that feels more like a partnership without ever losing what it is that my end vision, conclusion is. And then I understand. And if I understand what yours is, there's almost always a way to get there harmoniously. And if there's not, I'd rather know that right up front. And I can say, you know, what, what I need, what I want to get done, and what you want to get done just will never make sense. We'll never be able to get there. So I can waste the next three, four, six months in trying to get there, or I can quickly cut it, and I can walk away. And when I found that, which is something, I think it takes some time to grow into the confidence to be able to do that and the experience. But what I've also found is sometimes very quickly, the person who I'm negotiating with finds a little bit more clarity in what they really wanted to get done than what they were openly sharing up front. And so sometimes, if you are quickly and willing to say, wait a second, this just will never makes sense, and you walk away, you know, wait a week or a few days, and sometimes you get a phone call or an email back that says, you know, I've really been thinking about this, and really, truly, what I need to get done all of a sudden becomes very much more harmonious with what I was trying to accomplish. And you can find ways to get there. And I've also found that I can quickly eliminate a lot of the noise in a transaction if I can really understand what's most important to you and I can understand where I need to get to. There's a lot of noise and wasted energy and things that really don't matter to me but are really important on your side. I'm happy to give those to you. Because the other thing that I've found is that I'm better off to put my energy towards the positive than I am to spend so much energy on the negative, if that makes sense, go.

Deeper on that part.

I sit back and I watch and I watch. There are people who feel this need to be right and to win every little step along the way and they exhaust themselves and the person that they're working with in all of these smaller negotiations. So sometimes what happens is longer deals go on, the more likely they are to fall apart than to be put together, than to execute. So a lot of this energy that could be spent in execution and moving on is spent in negotiating for things that ultimately erode confidence, erode trust. And also in my field in real estate, the one thing we know is that there are cycles and we markets move and sometimes deals move away from you. And so you've expended energy in places that really, when you look back on it, weren't going to make any difference if you won that clause or not won that clause. And it did nothing but erode trust, eroded likelihood of getting your deal done. So I've just learned that, number one, I need to go into any deal, know exactly what it is and I'm trying what I'm, where I want to end up when I'm trying to get done. What are my non negotiables along the way? And we all have some non negotiables, fully understand those, be able to communicate all of this right up front. Listen very closely. What does the other side want to get done? What are their non negotiables? And once I understand they're non negotiables, why do I, if they're, if they're, don't in any way erode my non negotiables, why am I going to waste weeks and months negotiating those away? Why don't I upfront accept those, say, wait a second, is this a span I can, is this a span I can bridge? If so, I'm not going to waste my energy there.

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To learn more and we will be.

Right back after this.

Foreign this is great. And I love the fact that you talked about your willingness to accept acceptable deals and now revolutionary thought. Right now there's some really aggressive negotiator sitting there with their arms crossed saying, well, Jody, if you can get that value, then claim that value, why don't you just try to clean their clocks? So what do you say to that person?

What I say to that person is for me, from my experience, I have found, looking back, that I have created more value by not cleaning their clock and finding, and I don't want to say find compromise, because that's not what I'm saying. I understand my non negotiables and, and I'm not going to compromise on any of those. I will walk away from a deal. I'm not going to compromise on those. I understand the other side is non negotiables, but you know what, we didn't get to if you're so busy cleaning everybody's clock, I think that in the long run you probably get done five deals for every, let's just say 20 deals that I'm going to get done. And I'd rather create value for my communities, for my investors, for this organization. I want to think big and I want to think how do I create the most value overall rather than having to win every single point along the way? You know what? I'll give you a perfect example. In my life, which is in tennis. I grew up as a very competitive tennis player. And I promise you, I wanted to win every single match I ever played. I can promise you that. There, there were moments where I knew you, Kwame. I knew, I knew that we were going to go three sets. I just, I played you enough. I knew we were going to go three sets. It's hot. We're playing it 12 o' clock noon on a sunny day. And you know what? It's not that I'm going to Give up on any point. But when you serve way wide to my backhand, I might let you ace me. And I'm not telling you that I gave up on the point, but the energy expended in getting every one of those. What I realized at the end my tank would be empty and I was going to lose in the third set. What I wanted to know was I was going to win every game in the third set. And so every once in a while, not routinely, but when you hit a great winner, it was great. It was great. I was able to give you that point and I give it to you, but it was great because I wanted to. At the end of the day, my eye was really on the prize to win this match. And I wanted to win this match because I wanted to win the tournament. And at the end of the week I wanted the strongest legs on the court. And that's how I feel a little bit in negotiations is at the end of the day I want to win, which means I don't want to beat you. Winning to me is understanding the vision of exactly where I want to be at the end of the day. Understanding the vision of where you want to be at the end of the day and both of us standing right there, that, that is a true win to me. Now I wanted the big cup and I wanted you to have the runner up trophy. But, but in real life that when I enter a negotiation and so whether it's a, you know, sometimes it's a buy sell, that's easy, sometimes it's a lease and that's easy to understand. Sometimes it's a zoning negotiation with a municipality, somet, sometimes it's a negotiation internally with, with, with peer, with somebody who works here. And at the end of the day, you know, think about most, sometimes it's my husband, for goodness sakes. I don't, you know, I want a win win and I want to understand what's most important to me, what's most important to him. And neither of us want to walk out of that discussion thinking winner or loser. But, but if you understand, I feel that way about municipalities, I'm going to be here. I want to be really great friends with the zoning, with the head of planning, with the, with the council. I want to feel that I'm in partnership with them. But in real estate it's, you're constantly negotiating, whether it's for something like a curb cutter, it's density on your, on your, on your property. But I want to understand what is the community, what is it that they Need? What are they looking for? What is it that I need as an investor in their community? What is it I need as a. As a real estate owner in their community? And at the end of the day, I don't want a win lose situation. I want a win win because I'm in this for the long run with them as partners. But I'm also in this to create the most value, the greatest value for Edens, for our community, for our retail partners, for every neighbor that surrounds us. So I think when it comes to negotiation, what I feel most passionate about is this trite saying of win, win. I know it's trite, but that's really important to me and I think because I have such a perspective of what value looks like and what it looks like long term over time.

So many reasons. I love this response, but the number one reason is I didn't know you were a competitive tennis player because I was too. Yeah.

Really? Oh really?

I played like that was my childhood, playing USDA tournaments, traveling everywhere.

Yeah.

So one of the points I made in my first book is that tennis is one of the few sports where you can win while losing the majority of the points. Right. Because it's. It's not the best way to win.

No, it's not the best way to.

But you think about it, if you're going up against somebody who has a massive serve and they're holding serve easily 40, love, 40, 15. And all of yours are like going to deuce. It's a tougher game, but you win in a tight tiebreaker. They might statistically win more individual points in that set, but you still win the set because you're winning the right points.

You have to know.

Exactly.

And that's the thing, you have to know which points are most important because not all of the points are created equally. And that's how it is in negotiation too. You have to know which points you need to win and then you can get a better deal.

As I get older, what I've learned is I learned more on the athletic field, I think, than maybe I learned in school. If any child's listening to this, please go to school. But I do think sports are co curricular because as a female, one of the things that I think a lot of women have to overcome in the workplace is this fear of failure that I'm not sure I ever truly struggled with as much as most women. It's not something I relate to, but as I think about it, I think growing up in tennis, to your point, you're used to having a little failure. Right. Every match, if you won a tournament, you probably lost a set somewhere along the way. Every match, maybe you lose a set, you probably lost a game, and you definitely lost a few points. And so failure isn't a negative, it's something. Okay, got it. Reset and quickly get back in there. And there's no room for mopadope. I mean, if you're a mopadopa, I just lost a point. You could. You. And I probably watch these tournaments all the time, and you're watching somebody on TV and you're like, oh, there goes the game. Because you see him go mop a dope. And you're just like, oh, my gosh, get back in there. Right?

Yes. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Spot on. And one of the things to that point I've. I learned a lot through the sports, to learn a lot through watching it. And it's like a microcosm of life in many different ways. I was reading Billie Jean King's. Not her biography, but talking about gender equity in tennis, the Dollar Rebellion, and she said that I think it's something like 90% of all women in the C suite were competitive athletes in their youth in some way, because it teaches you. It teaches some level of grit and resilience because you're going to lose, you're going to have to overcome adversity, and you're going to have to do better and find a way to win. And that's what she always says. Champions adapt, and in negotiations, we have to be able to adapt 100%.

100%.

This is great. I had no clue you were a tennis player.

I could talk about that a little bit. The other thing, I think sports, especially for young women, I think society doesn't reward us when we were younger, at least when I was growing up, for being aggressive or competitive. But when you're on a sports field, whether you're on a sports field playing field hockey, on a court, playing tennis, you're in the pool. It was a place as a young woman, I could be as aggressive and competitive, and I found that rewarded instead of penalized. And so it doesn't surprise me. It took me a long time in life to really start to be able to bring those same qualities out in the workplace. They're sort of buried and were reserved only for the competitive fields. And so, yeah, I. That doesn't surprise me at all that a lot of female CEOs have that in their past.

Yeah.

All right. Back to negotiation.

Back to negotiation. Yeah. And I think we can really bring this all back, especially to that preparedness point. Because when, when we're playing sports, we. The goal is to win. Big picture. The goal is to win. Okay. One of the things that I would say in tennis is like, if the, if I lose a point, I would just say, I guess I wasn't meant to win that point, but I'm still meant to win this match. Right. When you talk about go back, go.

Back, I would just ask you to go back because you said something, you said you have to know the points, you have to win, you have to know the points are okay not to win. That's the same thing in negotiation, right. If you can understand what are your non negotiables, what are theirs. But I've also learned that you also fill up your basket a little bit with the throwaway points, so to speak. Because you know, when you go in with some people that they absolutely need to feel like they've won a few things, Right. And so it's no, it's no different than what you just alluded to. Slightly different. But you fill up your basket, you know, you're non negotiables. And you know your negotiables because you. There's also this emotion to it where a lot of people need to feel like, okay, I want a few things. So beyond just their non negotiables, so you also need to go in prepared to know with what are those few things in your basket that you can give on?

Yes. Okay. I like the psychology of this too, because we can talk about it in terms of giving on it. And the other way that you described it is some people need to feel like they won those things. And so going in, you understand what you can give. And when it comes to creativity and negotiation, really it comes down to trading things of unequal value. What are the things that you value highly that I don't value as much? Let's trade those things. And I'm going to try to get something that I value at a high level that you don't value as much. And then if you're going up against somebody who's very competitive, they. It's almost like. And tell me what you think about this, Jody. It's almost like they don't appreciate it unless they have to fight for it. And sometimes you have to make them feel as though they fought for it and it hurts in order for them to feel as though it was like a worthwhile concession that they're willing to trade on.

Yeah. So I always like to spend a little bit of time socially I don't know if socially is really the right word, but spend a little time getting to know the person that I'm going to be negotiating with. Spending a little time understanding their past, how they got to where they are, what has their path been to try to get to know them as a person. Because there's sometimes you can walk in with somebody and you can just be straight up, hey, listen, I don't want to pull out any stops, Kwame. This is exactly what I need. Here's why I need it. And you can quickly understand whether it's going to work or not. And sometimes you. You meet people that, to your point, they, they really have this need to win, to feel like they've pulled a few things out. I don't think that's. To me, it's neither good nor bad. It's just understanding who's sitting across the table, hopefully who's sitting next to you in this moment in time. And it's, it really is for me, nothing more than just understanding their needs. And part of maybe their non negotiables is to feel like they want a few more than they lost. That might be part of their non negotiables. And I'm, I actually am totally cool with that. Like, let me just understand the playing field. And once I can understand the playing field and the rules I'm playing by, I'm happy to engage in any game.

I love it. Oh, Jodi, this has been great. This has been great. I have another podcast coming up, so I have to.

Awesome.

But I really appreciate you coming on the show. And before you go, I want you to let the listeners know again about you and about Edens and if they're interested how they could work with you.

Oh, absolutely. My name is Jodi McLean, CEO of Edens. You can find us hopefully in any one of your community communities and one of. We like to consider ourselves the living room of your community. But you can also find us at our website, which is simply edens.com Jody, this was exceptional.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. Thanks, Kwame.

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