Recognizing Trigger Points in Sales and Negotiations with Scott Harvey-Lewis, PE.

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Scott, thanks for joining us today. Great to be here.

Sunny outside and hurricane approaching, but, you know, all smiles right now.

Amen. That's, that's the vibe we want, you know, the feeling good, even though bad times might come, you're still ready. So I like that, I like that. So before we get into this, how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. So I'm Scott Lewis. I'm the president and owner of Billy Mavens and Billy Mavens is a multi disciplinary engineering firm that focuses on building assessments and especially right now in Florida, there are new laws, milestone inspections and structural integrity inspections that we're really focusing on. So personally, I have over 20 years experience as a structural engineer and right now just focusing on serving the community in this new time.

Very nice, very nice. So listeners, before we jumped on the podcast, Scott and I were talking about, about the things that are really interesting to him. So actually this is a cool behind the scenes. I don't think I've ever mentioned this to the listeners. Like the way that we start, we do these episodes, people will list out what they want to talk about in general, but then once the interview comes up, I say, what are you really feeling? What are you vibing on? And Scott said, trigger points. And I was like, oh, that sounds cool. That sounds cool. So that's what we're going to talk about today. So Scott, when you use the term trigger points in negotiation, what does that mean to you?

So I'm thinking of sitting in a room and you're trying to sell Something, or let's say negotiate price or negotiate service. And you see somebody, maybe their arms are crossed or their legs are crossed, or you say something and maybe there's a noticeable change in their demeanor. And to me, that would be a trigger point that you either have to recognize and address, or it could be the opposite, that they're leaning into you, they're not in their head. And then you don't need to oversell or negotiate now because now you know that they're on the right track. So being able to notice those cues and essentially go with the emotional intelligence of the negotiation, I think is something important to me.

Okay, yeah, let's dig into this. Right. Because this is one of those things where we could get really deep, really fast, which is, hey, I mean, that's how I like it. So let's go in. So let's peel back the layers. I want you to paint a picture of what happens in a sales situation, a negotiation situation in general. When you miss those trigger points, what does that look like?

Well, if you're selling something, or if I'm selling something and, and I'm trying to explain the service or explain why it costs certain amounts and somebody is starting to cross their, their, their, their, their, their arms or their legs and they're becoming closed off and I ignore that, and maybe even ignore their questions that show that they want to know more or need to know more, then they become noticeably more aggravated and sometimes it can get a little heated and then it all goes off the rails at that point.

Yeah, man. It's really interesting too, because when we start thinking about body language, like actual communication similar to words, what's interesting is that essentially, and you correct me if I'm, if I'm mischaracterizing this, if we don't recognize those trigger points, those changes in the body language, if we're not reading the room, even if they are not explicitly sharing information, if we don't recognize that language, there's almost an element of disrespect in the way that they might perceive that. So, for example, so if I explicitly tell you something and then you ignore it, then I can feel disrespected. Right. But essentially, if we're not reading the room, they might be telling us things non verbally, and we completely ignore it. And like you said, it escalates the amount of frustration that they might be feeling in the situation. Right.

Communication. If you're taking communication as the composite of a whole and say the whole is 100% the body language of a person is more than 50% of the communication, whereas, like, words are like 7%. And, like, the tone is another smaller percentage. But the body language itself is most of the communication that we're going to give. So that's probably what we need to be more attuned to. And, like, you're right. If we're ignoring that, then you are really, in a sense, maybe disrespecting the person's feelings if you can actually tell that they're, you know, not liking what you're saying or hearing.

Exactly. It's like, listen, man, I'm trying to show you I am not feeling this. Why are you still selling hard as if I am? Yeah, man, it's interesting. And the thing is, let's say we go through school, things like that. This isn't something that most people go through where it's like, hey, this is how you read people. This is how you read body language. For you, how did you pick it up?

I think I've always naturally been inclined towards sales, and in selling, I naturally want to win. And then in losing a lot, you're like, man, you know, I'm selling something and I'm telling them what it is, and it's factual and I'm losing, so what's going wrong? Right? And then as you start to dig into the skill set of sales and it becomes, okay, it's not so much about the product, it's about establishing that trust. And then trust is, is. Is. You know, you have, like, right now, we have 30 minutes to establish trust, right? And so how do I establish trust really fast that this person can say, okay, I trust this guy. No, I want to listen to them. And like we talked about, there may be some implicit biases or something else that you may have to overcome. And so if you start a meeting and the guy, somebody is like, sitting down like this and closed off, then you want to see if you can get those hands open and maybe to the table and leaned in, and you'll be able to see if it's becoming more closed or more open in what you're saying. And so, you know, you want to be able to read those cues really quickly.

That's good. And one of the things I liked about what you said was the fact that you can see the progress that you're making in the relationship based in the response that you're getting with their body language. Like, they might not change what they're saying, but they're changing the way that they're responding physically. Right. So like you said, if they're closed off, and then they slowly start to have more expansive body language, start to lean in, start to smile more. Then we're saying, okay, now we're getting there. Now what are some of those things that you do to warm somebody up if they're starting off a little bit closed off?

Well, this is a good example of just a general change. So when I was a young engineer and let's say I was a project manager and I would call a client, I'd be right into business. I'd be like, hey, this is Scott with so&so calling about your project. Here's where it's at. Could I get the money? And then come off the phone, think it's a great conversation. And then lo and behold, I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies right. I'm like, what is going on? I, you know, like, I'm just delivering the advice and delivering. And it's good product. And I realized, and I forgot what I heard, but it said, like, all deals that close, like they did some survey of some car dealership or something. And like, all the deals that closed started off with some form of small talk. And whereas other ones that didn't, there was a higher chance it wouldn't close. So at that time, this was years ago to consciously, you know what, when I call people, and not just a small talk, like, hey, how are you doing? Blah, blah, okay, onto business, but really talk to somebody. How are you? Like right now, today you said, hey, my son's name is Kai. So next time I talk to you, I'd be like, how's Kai doing? And like, hey, what about the baby? And blah, blah. We talk about that a little bit, and right away you might be more open. And then I say, well, then we can get into certain things, but the person now knows that I actually care about them and care about what's happening in their life. Not just that I'm calling to make a sale or call in to, like, close a deal.

Yeah, man, that matters. That matters because once the person feels as though you genuinely care about who they are as a person, it increases the level of trust that you have, makes it a lot easier to communicate, makes them more comfortable being vulnerable and sharing information that you can then use to help them to make a good decision, which, of course would be working with you.

Right.

One of the things that you mentioned that I want to go back to is implicit bias. That's a really interesting topic, especially as it relates to negotiation. I feel like not enough people talk about it. As it relates to. Relates to negotiation, sales, those type of things. A lot of times when we hear people talking about bias, they're like, bias is bad and the world sucks. And we're like, okay, so what do I do about this? Right? So here you are as a Jamaican American, as an engineer, trying to create these relationships. And so I'm sure you've run into those instances of bias. Can you describe what that's like and what you've done to overcome that?

That's a deep question. So there's a couple things and this might tie into the next thing about triggers and body language as well, is you don't have to always be the right person for the customer and vice versa. So sometimes when you go to make a sale or you go to get a relationship, you may find out that mutually, it may not be the right relationship, or even that person may want your service, but you don't want it, right? You don't want the business. So I think part of the growth of a professional, where I've reached is I don't. I'm not trying to please everybody to get the business right. And so when I approach in and talk about the service, I'll be very candid about whether I'm the right engineer or not, or whether I can help them or not. And if somebody is showing some implicit bias towards me for some reason. And very recently, I mean, I got into a meeting where I was essentially. I didn't create the proposal for the project, and I essentially inherited it, and I started a new job. So I inherited the proposal. Never talked to these clients before, and I was just going to present. I was going to present, Went into a room, and the guy right off the bat was like, really nasty to me. Never met me before and never. I've never. So. And for somebody. And also, you have to, like, start thinking, okay, I've made hundreds of presentations, met hundreds of people, and this guy was especially nasty for no reason. And so at that point, when he was asking me questions, like, I could. I could stand back to him and be like, listen, I may not be the engineer for you, right? So, like, if I'm picking up on these waves of something, let's call it whatever it is, right? I don't necessarily have to know, say, I need to close you. Like, I know I may not be the person for you. And let's move on with the show. And I think that's. And that might be the extreme case, as opposed to maybe somebody is like, what's this guy gonna say? Oh, he looks young. Or, you know, he's not from here. He has an accent. But then again, when I start talking to them and they start seeing that I'm not there just to make a sale, I'm actually there listening to them and talking them through, and I'm educated, I think at that point they're like, okay, well, this guy might be different. Okay, he's telling us the right things. Let's. And then we might go on the right track. But in either extreme, like I said, I'm not there to please everybody. I'm not the engineer for everybody. And, and if I'm feeling that vibe, whether it be cost basis or like, like you said, a bias base, or just, hey, we don't, we don't like each other from just a minute with each other, like, no harm, no foul, right? There's, There may be somebody else for them and just like, there's another customer for me. So, you know, I think to be able to, like, call those shots really quickly and not try to be all things, all people.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And we will be right back after this. Oh, there's so much I like about this, Scott. There's so much I like about this. So let's think about, like the traditional negotiation parlance here. So we talk about batna, your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. You always want to have essentially a plan B for every conversation. When you think about, like, power dynamics and leverage in negotiation, if you are able to walk away, that gives you a little bit more leverage because it makes you, you feel less need, like the feeling of neediness, right? So that's one of the worst things you can feel because if you feel needy, then you're going to feel obligated to make inappropriate types of concessions. And in cases of bias, that might lead you to. If you don't, if you feel needy, the type of concession you might make might not be substantive. It might not be in terms of the scope of work. It might not be in terms of the money. It might be in terms of your authentic personality, who you are and who you want to be. And there are a lot of things that you should not compromise in a negotiation, but you also should not be compromising who you are, are authentically. And so there's a level of power that comes from that and self respect that's really important with the way that you're handling that. And counterintuitively, that is actually very attractive because if somebody's willing to say, hey, listen, this might not be the right deal, I'm having a conversation to see if it. If it is. And if we don't work together, no harm, no foul, we're good people are like, well, this Scott guy must have something going on if he's cool with walking away from this money here. So I think that's. That's really powerful, man. Really powerful.

Right? Yeah. And like you said, when it comes to if you're on the other side of fence, you should know what something really costs and what the. If you're willing to concede something, you don't want to give away the farm. And I think if I'm making any concessions, it's either going to be related to like, well, maybe all this scope of work is not what you need. Maybe we can focus on these eight things and that may the price comes down or we bite off small chunks at a time and at any point you can say no, and I'll make sure we transition this project. Right. So I think listening again, picking up on the cues, seeing what the roadblocks are, and instead of saying, okay, well, no, it's over. It's like, okay, well how do we make this? No, I guess, right. And just keep moving like that along. And again, it's. I think I'm more naturally geared towards that. Maybe that's why I pick up it pretty quickly on that end. But yeah, I like those nuances of things. How do you become the master of sales that people are not even realizing you're selling to them.

Right, exactly. I think when. When you're at your best, sales, persuasion, negotiation, it should be imperceptible. So you should be so authentic with the way that you're operating that it should not feel as though you're trying to push somebody in one way or another. I feel like once you start to feel as though you're pushing somebody, once people feel like that, it almost automatically triggers Some resistance. It's like, I don't know what Scott's pushing me, but I don't want to go there. You. That's, that's a really important point. Something else that you mentioned that I think was interesting with that example that you gave, going back to the bias, is that you inherited the account from other people. I was doing a training just the other day, and somebody was like, we often find ourselves in a situation where I inherit a train, like a, an account from somebody else who got fired for a specific reason, you know, and now. And now that stain is upon me. And so we have to think about bias. Like, bias is general, like this. This doesn't just apply to race, gender, that type of thing. No, bias is just a subconscious preference towards something or a subconscious prejudice against something. And if you're associated with an account that was poorly managed before, I don't care who you are, there's going to be a bias against you. You got to work through it.

Yeah, exactly. You never know. You never know what you're walking into sometimes. And that's why that's a personable touch, like reading the room. Just, let's talk about just life and how people are doing, and then we'll get into this stuff goes a long way, because that's, in essence, can start breaking down some of that bias to start. And then, then you talk about business.

Absolutely. Okay, so let's, let's, let's run a different scenario. Scott. I always try to. I always try to listen to the voices of the, of the listeners out there, right? And I heard somebody out there say, well, okay, Scott, it sounds nice. We're going to, we're going to have the rapport building and things like that. But sometimes if somebody's closed off, I try to warm them up with a little bit of rapport building, and then they never open up. They just, they're just cold. The whole. So when that happens, what advice do you have for folks?

Yeah, so if they don't open up, going back to personalities like my personality on paper may be one thing that if we right now say, like, hey, let's go party. I'm like, let's go do it right? And we can talk for hours and hours. And where somebody else, they don't want to do it, they want to get down to business. So you won't just start talking in depth about small things and on and on. That person may just need, hey, hello, how are you doing? And they're like, hey. And they may even say, well, let's Talk about the proposal. It's like, okay, well, let's talk about it, right? Like, what do you want to talk about? Some people just want to get down to business, and that's fine, too. The point is, some people may not want to get down to business. And so you don't just jump in. You kind of read the room, see where their mind is at, see what they want to talk about. And they may want to talk about questions they had on the proposal. They may want to talk about questions about the service. So I usually just ask them where they want to start. Right. And they may say, well, you give us the spiel, and then I'll go into the spiel.

I love that. Yeah, because. Because essentially what you're saying is that it's a flexible approach. This is a tool that you have in your back pocket to read the room and say, okay, somebody needs to be warmed up. I'm going to warm them up. Be a bit more personable. Try to establish some rapport beforehand. But as you are reading the room, you might realize, typically, that's what I would do, but for this person, that is not the vibe I'm getting. So I need to adjust. And it's so critical because I think a lot of times people say, okay, I need to build rapport. And I tell you, man, one of the most awkward types of interactions occur when somebody is trying to be friendly and build rapport with somebody who clearly is not interested in that and the other person is just not reading the room at all. So you could fail by trying to be too friendly if you don't make.

The right read and it's a genuine thing. It's like, if you're not a friendly person, then don't try to be too friendly. This is just genuinely like, hey, okay, people care more about the people person they're doing business with. Right. Because I've seen people forgive many mistakes and continue doing business with people they like and fire people that probably are doing good work because they don't like them. So it's more important to now say, like, by just doing whatever they ask, but, like, build that rapport. Like you said, be trustworthy, be respected. And that's built on other things. Not, hey, here's my product. Sign on the dotted line. And so that's the focus. And just a genuine care and genuine belief in your product that it's good for the person, and so you want to know about them, their situation, so you can deliver what they need in a tailored package. And that that has to be A conversation, it can't just be rushed through. And it's not checking a box like, okay, I said hello, I said goodbye. Said please, I said thank you. Like, okay, rapport over. All right, let's talk about it.

Right? Oh, man, that's funny. That so.

Right.

And one of the things that you just mentioned that just cannot be overstated is the fact that when you think about ethical persuasion, you're not trying to force somebody into something that is not good for them. Because something that has been clear with what you've been saying throughout is that you believe in yourself and you believe in your product and your company's ability to help people in these situations. And so you're not pushing somebody in a bad position. This isn't manipulation. This is, hey, we're going to work together. We're going to have a conversation to see if this is a fit. If it is, let's make it happen. If not, we can go our separate ways. Not a big deal.

Yeah, no big deal.

This is great, man. Scott, I appreciate it. This has been really, really helpful. Before you go, there might be some folks out in Florida who need an inspection. Can you remind them about who you are, your company, and how they can get in touch?

Yeah, it's really simple. So it's building mavens. If you want to get in touch with me, it's just scottilding mavens. If you want to get in touch with the company, it's just infoildingmavens. And we do everything to do with existing buildings, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, structural. And especially these inspections that hit Florida, the milestone inspection and the structural integrity reserve study, we're doing those around the community right now, especially in South Florida. So easy to get in touch with me on LinkedIn. You can find me pretty easy on there as well if you want to reach out.

Perfect. Scott, really appreciate it, man. Thanks for coming on the show.

Appreciate it. Good talking with you.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate and Anything team, so welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.