Renegotiating the Direction of Your Career with Meggie Palmer

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Negotiate Anything is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 3 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made it the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm Kwame Christian, and I'm the director of the American Negotiation Institute. We're growing, and I want to introduce you to our new team members and new trainers. This will give you new and diverse perspectives on negotiation, conflict resolution. And that's why Shane Martin, our head of sales and partnerships, is going to serve as co host of the show from time to time. We're excited to continue to provide you with the best content that will help to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, our team conducts negotiation and conflict resolution trainings in the United States and abroad. Our trainings will give you the practical skills you need to resolve conflict, negotiate, lead, and persuade with confidence. Click the link in the description below to learn more about how we can make your difficult conversations easier. Maggie, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. Such a treat to be here.

Yes, it's a treat for us to have you back again, so thanks for coming. For the listeners who might have missed your first episode, can you tell them a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Of course. So my name is Maggie Palmer, and I'm the founder and CEO of Pep Talk Her. So we're on a mission to close the gender pay gap, and we help Fortune 500 companies work on their leadership pipeline to make sure that we can get towards that 5050 goal that so many companies have today.

Fantastic. Oh, well, that was great. I feel like you've done that before. Awesome. And let them know about the app, too.

Yeah. So we built a free app a couple of years ago, Kwame. So basically, I wanted to build an app that could help people keep track of their successes. Because I don't know about you, but, like, I honestly don't know what I had for dinner, like, on Wednesday last week, let alone what I did at work in January or October last year. And so the premise behind the free Pep Talker app is that you can track your career successes, right? So you download the app on all of the app stores, and then it'll send you a prompt once a week. It'll be like, kwame, what's up? What are you really proud of this week? You know, if your name's Elizabeth and you're using the app, it'll be like, elizabeth, tell me something that happened this week that you want to kind of track so that you then have that data and that record of all of those accomplishments. When it comes to your performance review, when it comes to applying for new jobs, you've then got data and examples there to back up your case, to negotiate, or to advocate for a raise or a new title.

This is fantastic. So simple, but so powerful. So kudos to you and the team for making that, well, perfect. So today we are going to talk about a career success sprint. So a lot of people are excited to know what that is, but essentially what we're doing to talk about is if you're kind of stuck, how you can negotiate yourself out of that and renegotiate the direction of your career. So let's just start off with a definition. When you say career success sprint, what do you mean?

Well, so, you know, sometimes in your career you've either got some stuff happening in your personal life or you've had a bit of a bad run at work. Maybe the circumstances around you just haven't been great and you just feel stuck and you kind of lethargic and you're like, oh, I'm going through the motions. I'm not really energized. Where am I even going? What am I even doing with my career? Right? If anyone's feeling like that, you know, then this is kind of when you need a bit of a kickstart, right? Or you might kind of be like, oh my gosh, like, is it halfway through the year already? Like, how am I? Am I on track? Where am I going? You know, when you have those moments in your career, it's really normal. Firstly, to those of you who are maybe feeling like, yes, that's totally me, I've been there as well. I've been in those ruts back when I was, when I was a foreign correspondent. And so something that we know, and you know a lot about this, Kwame, from a psychology perspective, when you are in a funk, when you are kind of spiraling in a negative direction, you need to snap yourself out of it. Like you've got two options. You can kind of keep spiraling and keep feeling sorry for yourself. And that's cool for a little bit. But if you want to head towards success, if you have a trajectory that you want to kind of get back on track with, at some point you're going to have to do something to jolt yourself out of it. And so that's why we built in conjunction with our in house behavioral psychologist. It's a five day career sprint and it's basically a kickstart for your career. So. So we're going to give you these amazing five minute hacks that will help you get back on track, get focused, and make sure that you end the year in the way that you really want to for your career.

That's great. So. So this is a program that you and the team have created and I want to say kudos too, because I know based on your methodology and all the work that you do, there is a lot behind it. So the ability to synthesize that down into five minute chunks, that's. I know that's hard to do.

Well, I mean, we're all busy, right? Like everyone's busy, you know, and it's like anything in life, if you've got to cook dinner, if you've got to catch up with a friend, it's like time is money. And so we understand that everyone also, when it comes to your career, you're actually doing the work. And so we're asking you to take some time out to think about a little bit more strategically about your career. We get that that's kind of tough from a time perspective. And so we wanted to make it super snackable, super bite sized, but still. And so it has got that science backing. We have got our psychologists in house, as I say, who develop this curriculum for us in conjunction with the data that we have from our app users, with the work that we do in house with our corporate clients. And that's kind of been amalgamated into this free program. Because one of our core values as a business is impact. We want to make an impact on people's lives, on people who use the free app, who do the free career sprint. That's really important to me. It's a big part of why I started the business. So we wanted to give back. We ran this challenge three months ago. We had about 1,000 people around the world go through it, go through the program. And I knew it would be good because it is great content. But honestly, Kwame, like, I didn't realize how significant an impact it would be. So we had people who went through the five day challenge and they got a pay raise. We had someone who went through the challenge and got their student debt reduced because of one of the prompts was around asking and like putting yourself out there and be vulnerable to negotiate and ask. We had people who reached out to recruiters and have since had job offers. So honestly, the impact has been beyond even our wildest dreams. And so we're so excited to be relaunching this again for. Yeah, just to kind of jolt you out of it and kind of get you back on track in terms of the direction you really want to go with your career.

That is fantastic. And before we move on, can you let the listeners know about how they could enroll?

Absolutely. So it's totally free. It runs for five days. We're kicking off in a couple of weeks. So head along to www.peptalkher. h-E R AN I so pep talkher.com ANI and that is a link that will give you free access for everyone who's a listener of your amazing negotiation podcast. The ANI stands for American Negotiation Institute, which I'm sure you're all aware of because of the great work that Kwame and the team do. So, yeah, pep talko.com an just head along to that website on your cell phone or your laptop, sign up and we will be in touch. And we're so excited. And I actually run a free live coaching call as part of the program too. So you are going to get a five minute challenge every day on email. And then you're going to get free access to my free daily live coaching calls so you can ask any questions, kind of talk through anything. And also the other cool thing is you get a community because, you know, I think sometimes when we're striving for our success in our career and, and we've got a mission and we've got a vision for our future, sometimes it feels lonely. Right. Because your best friend maybe doesn't get it, maybe your mom doesn't get it or your partner is kind of on a different path. And that's cool. But it's nice to, it's nice to think about your career with other people who are also aspirational and also desiring like an amazing career future. And so those are kind of the people that you'll be surrounded with, which I think really helps as well.

That's great. So you've had the opportunity to work with a lot of different people. And when you think about how people have been able to use negotiation and difficult conversations to really jump start their career, get their careers back on track, what are some of those things other than salary negotiation? Because that's what we talked about last time.

Yeah. So I think there's two things. I think the first thing is you've got to negotiate with yourself. Right. Because I think sometimes we've been conditioned and maybe your listeners are pivoting careers. Maybe they're more mature in their career and they feel like they've been pigeonholed, and they feel like they're not getting the respects or the opportunities that they love. Maybe they're early in their career and they just feel like people aren't taking them seriously because they're a junior. So sometimes you have to negotiate with yourself, and that's really about understanding your value. And so if I, let's say, for example, if I'm having a bit of a spiral, being like, ugh, as if I should apply for that promotion, like, no one's even going to take me seriously, why would I bother? That is a sign to me that you need to negotiate with yourself quite strictly and be like, do you know what, Maggie? Like, we need to just sit down and have a pep talk. And you've got to pep talk yourself to say, you are worthy, you are valuable, you are contributing, you are absolutely within your rights to go for that promotion, to talk to that recruiter, to look for another job, right? Because if you don't believe that you're worth it, if you don't believe you have that value, everyone else is going to see through you, right? So that's the first thing. You've really got to sit down and have a good long talk to yourself, and you got to stop believing it, right? And you really do have to do that. Right? And so I don't. You know, one of the things that I do is I listen to my favorite Taylor Swift song on my iPhone. If I find myself spiraling, I put on a bit of Taylor and I just give myself a pep talk and I'm like, do you know what? You've actually got this. The music kind of gets in my bones, and I sort of get in a good mood, and it's a really great way. And it's a. Music is very powerful for me anyway in terms of helping me to rewire the way I am thinking about myself. The talk track that you have in your head about yourself and your own value, you listen to that talk track on repeat every single day, right? So whatever you are thinking up here, that is what is being amplified. So we are going to make sure that those messages are really positive and setting you up for success. So the first thing, Kwame, is you've got to negotiate with yourself to understand, appreciate, and know your value. So that's the first thing we're going to do. So we're going to own our own value. And then if we want to get successful, then we're going to have to negotiate and navigate our career path. Because guess what? No one is going to negotiate your career path for you. You've got to do that yourself, right? Just like if you're heading off on a road trip, no one else is driving that car for you. You've got to drive it yourself. It's the same with your career. You got to steer that career car in the direction that you want it to go. And sometimes, maybe our parents were lawyers, maybe our parents wanted us to be an engineer or whatever. And so we go down this path and before we know it, we're down that path. 10 years, 15 years, 30 years. Is that really the path you want to be on? Because if it's not, guess what? You can recalibrate and you can renegotiate that path towards the direction where you would love it to be. And I know that can seem scary and it can seem overwhelming, but it's true. Because there's no magic job fairy who's going to like, appear from the sky and like all of a sudden give you a magic career trajectory path that you should totally be on. I hate to be the one to tell the listeners, Kwame, but you've got to make that path for yourself. You've got to negotiate your own career path. And it sounds overwhelming, but. But honestly, that's a big part of why we built the free 5 day success sprint Challenge is because we give you a framework. It seems overwhelming, but trust me, it's a five day framework. We're going to do five minutes a day and you're just going to follow it step by step by step by step. And it's going to make it clearer, it's going to make it calmer, and it's going to make it easier. And as I said, when you're doing it alongside other people who are also recalibrating, who are also getting back on track, it's just a lot easier to know that you're not the only one who's looking to recalibrate their career. Hi, I'm Katherine Knacky and I'm the Chief Operating Officer here at the American Negotiation Institute. Did you know our company offers completely customizable negotiation workshops? The negotiation and conflict resolution skills that your team will learn from these workshops are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in professional procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. Also, be sure to check out our YouTube, LinkedIn and Instagram accounts to see our daily negotiation content. Thanks for listening.

This is great. And you're right, the framework is powerful because it can feel overwhelming because you think about the studies with the paradox of choice, for example, the more choices and decisions that you have to make, the less likely it is for you to actually make a decision. And in this case, when we're talking about rerouting our career, not making a decision is in fact a decision. And it's a decision to stay on the same path. And that can be challenging. And so now I'm really getting a better understanding of that internal negotiation you have to have with yourself. First, giving yourself the permission and the confidence to ask, and then also getting that clarity for yourself to. As to what you should be asking for. And then the framework helps you to know how to do it. Yeah.

And, you know, I know a lot of the people that listen to your podcast, Kwame. Like, they're professionals, right? Like, they're working in industry and they're doing really well. And when you're doing really well, sometimes the easy option is to be like, well, there's nothing wrong with this path, so I'm going to keep going. And there's probably nothing wrong with a lot of the paths, right? And sometimes that path is awesome and it's like a 7 out of 10. How good is that? But, like, sometimes you might be craving a 9 out of 10, or you might be craving a career path that feels like a 10 out of 10. Like, what could that look like for you? Right? And it is overwhelming. And so what we want to do is kind of give people guardrails to say, here's some guardrails that you can work within, see how it feels, try it out for size in a, you know, a low consequence environment with our challenge. It's free. It doesn't matter. You can think about it. And sometimes it's for people who want to pivot. Sometimes it's for people who just want to, like, jump up. Right. Like, they want that promotion or they want to go to that other department and they just don't know how to get there. Right. And it's, you know, it's not going to happen overnight necessarily. But as I said, we did see some people within five days last time. They had astronomical success, which is kind of wild and amazing. And we're very here for it and we want to see more of it. But it is about creating a safe space where we can just like, start to focus on our career because we Spend so much time focusing on our colleagues, on our family, on our friends and, and sometimes we forget to focus on us. And what do we really want? You know, like we spend so many years of our life in our work. If we don't love it, you know, if it is only a 6 out of 10 or a 7 out of 10, is that enough? And it might be. But if you are craving something more, then I would say I reckon it is a worthwhile investment of five minutes a day for the five days just to kind of try it out for size and see how you feel about it.

That's fantastic because I'm thinking about math here. 5 days, 5 minutes, 25 total minutes. I think we've all spent time watching a 30 minute show that we regretted watching. So I feel like that's a reasonable investment. So I want you to tell the listeners a story about one of the people who went through the program or maybe somebody who did coaching who you think really exemplifies the principles you're talking about today.

Yeah. So I can give you an example. And she speaks very openly. She's actually done some press for us. So she's given me permission to share her story, which is great. So this is a woman called Nikki. She probably has around, I guess, 18 years professional experience. She was in, she was in the media industry for a very long time, very successful. And she felt like she should stay in that industry because she was okay paid, you know, she was doing okay. But she had young kids, she's just, you know, she had like a one year old child and two other, two other little boys. And she sort of felt like she needed that stability so she should stay in that job. But she kind of had this dream and she kind of had this idea that like what if she had her own consulting company and she could choose her hours and she could pick up the kids but still earn really good money. Like what if she could do that? And so she came through the five day challenge and that kind of helped her open her eyes to the fact that it was possible. Right. So that was the first step for her was that it was possible. And what she realized was she thought she should stay in her successful 9 to 5 job because it was stable. Right. But what she realized was what she really wanted, what she really, really wanted was to earn a certain amount of money and to have flexibility. So she figured out those were her non negotiables. It wasn't really about where she worked, it was about having a certain amount of money to cover her Bills. But she really wanted this flexibility and she was never going to get that in that existing role. And so we actually, she and I ended up working together in a one on one coaching capacity. And what she's figured out now is she now works three days a week. Previously she worked five. She now earns about 30% more in her consulting role than she did when she was full time. And guess what? She does sort of like, you know, 10:00am till 2:30pm kind of thing, right? She drops the kids off, picks them up, has some time with her baby during the day. So she's gone from five days a week, quite stressed, nine to five and okay salary to three days a week, a much better salary and a much happier life because she's got this flexibility. And she even says to me, Kwame, you know, she says, honestly, even if I wasn't earning as much money, I'd still be so much happier. Now she's like, it's the cherry on top that we managed to negotiate a higher salary. But she's like, really what I wanted was that flexibility and the ability to say, actually today I'm going to get up really early and get some work done and I'm going to go to the kids school, sports comfortable. That was what she really wanted from her career. And so when we think about this concept, I asked people to reflect on before Kwame, of like, is Your job a 6 out of 10 or a 7 out of 10? Which is pretty cool. It's pretty good. So if you're in that position right now and you're like, it's pretty good. I just challenge you to say, like, what could 8 out of 10, 9 out of 10, 10 out of 10 look like for you? And just dream about it, right? Because it's not necessarily going to happen tomorrow. But it is totally possible. It was possible for Nikki. We've got about 60,000 women in the pep talko community. It's totally possible. It is about taking measured risks and measured steps to get there. So I often say to people, rather than just jumping out of the blue and quitting a job out of the blue, there's some baby steps that you can take that will help you feel a little bit more comfortable before you make that enormous leap, if indeed that's what you want to do. Maybe you just realize you want to change your role slightly. Maybe you want to drop to part time so you can do your art one or two days a week from home, right? So there's so many different ways to find that fulfillment in people's. Career. But, you know, I think a lot of the work that you do, Kwame, around negotiating that path, like, choose your own terms and negotiate it towards where you want it to go, not where your boss wants to go to go, not where the company wants, but where do you truly want it to go? And what could that life look like for you? It's really. It's so exciting for me, you know, Absolutely.

This is great. And I love that example because it really exemplifies how you have to have that internal negotiation to figure out what it is you want and why. And sometimes we always use the term be creative, think outside the box. But the reality is, if you don't even realize that you are, in fact, in a box, you can't think outside the box. And sometimes it takes an objective perspective from somebody from the outside to help you to say, hey, just, you know, let's be a little creative here. Maybe a little crazy. What could that life look like? And then you start to expand your perspective, and now you can actually negotiate for more because you're seeing more opportunities.

Totally. And I think sometimes this is uncomfortable, right? Because often, you know, I was a journalist, Kwame, as you know, for 15 years, and I loved my job, and I traveled the world, and I met, you know, Brad Pitt, and I met Bashar al Assad, and, like, these. These people in history. And it was an amazing job. But, you know, ultimately for me, it was an 8 out of 10. And I had to. I had to do some soul searching and say, well, 8 out of 10 is pretty good. It's better than most people. Like, I should be grateful for that, right? I should be thankful for that. And I was, and I still am. But I wanted to find that 9 out of 10, 10 out of 10, 11 out of 10 pathway. And you've got to ask some hard questions, and sometimes it's uncomfortable. I've got to be honest with you. It's not always easy. And sometimes your friends and family don't like the answers that you come up with. And that's awkward, too, sometimes, right? But I do think from that place of honesty and authenticity and vulnerability, of digging deep as to what do you really want? And is it possible? Thinking creatively to your point, Kwame, like, is it possible? Could I do this? How could I do this? Could I start saving now? Could I do it in five years? Do I have some shares that I could sell so that I can build up enough clients and quit in two years, whatever that looks like for you. But I think from that discomfort of those awkward questions comes amazing growth, amazing opportunities. Certainly I've seen that with the clients that I've worked with and the people that come through the five day success sprint. It's pretty transformational. And as I said, it blows me away every time in a good way.

That's great. And you brought up a really, really good point that people often overlook. And then they run into this problem. They're like, it kind of breaks them down a little bit. And that's the negotiation with the people who are around you because you think you have it all together. Wow. I have this transformational, transformational experience where I now see the world differently. I have a better understanding of myself. I know what I really want. Wow. I had an incredible conversation with my boss and now I have a flexibility or I just, I see this new opportunity, I can make this transition. And then you go and you talk to your significant other and then they're not happy about it. And it's, it's frustrating because the reality is sometimes people see you in a certain way. And as much as your identity needs to shift, your identity in the eyes of other people need to shift too. And your spouse, your significant other, that person is going to have a say in that. So how do you manage that difficult conversation?

Yeah, and it's one of the things, you know, that we, that we talk about in the, in the free course is that we get this support crew, a cheerleader support crew around you. Right? So that actually when you're contemplating these questions, you're not doing it on your own. Firstly, you've got the accountability of the group itself, right. Of the pep talker community. So that's the first thing. But then we say to everyone, you need to go out. And we're going to ask you to connect with two people in your life who know, love and respect you because they will have some ideas for you, too. Or they might say, you think you want to do that. But you and I both know that's actually not what you really want, is it? You know, because you need those people, to your point, Kwame, to be that sounding board for you, right? To kind of say, okay, just write it in. Remember when you did this three years ago and it didn't really work out? Okay, let's unpack that a little further. So getting that buying from people around you, but it takes time, you know, and again, I am a big advocate for baby steps. So if someone comes to me and says, maggie, I'm going to quit my job tomorrow and start this business, I'll normally say to them, whoa, whoa, whoa. Cool. Let's talk about it. Let's just calm down. Let's just take a baby step. What are you throwing away here? What would that look like? What's your Runway? How much savings have you got? Is this even a business idea? Will anyone pay you for this? Let's figure that out first before you take any giant leaps. So, yes, we want to make change. I'm here for that. But I personally like the baby step. And from a psychology perspective, it's kind of the nudges, right? So this idea of nudging yourself in a direction where you want to go that feels comfortable for you also then means that the people around you in your life, they sort of come to terms with where you want to go as well. I had a colleague once say to me, maggie, it takes a long time to turn a big ship. And I think that that's a really interesting metaphor to be like. Sometimes it takes quite a long time to sort of turn yourself and your perspective of where you want to go and also the perspective of those around you. Right? So it's not going to happen overnight. They're not necessarily going to be delighted for you overnight that you want to make this career shift. But if you explain to them the reasons why, if you involve them in the conversation as you go along, which is part of the framework that we work through, then it's not such a surprise for them. Right. Like, another one of our clients, she's a very successful financial banker. She's going back to do teaching. So she's going to go from, I don't know, $200,000 a year probably to 50, $60,000 a year. Right. It's a big change. And so that was something that she needed to talk through with her partner because it's a big change for them as a family. They've got a baby on the way, so there's a lot that they needed to talk through. Now, he understands now that that's actually where she really wants to go. It's her heart, it's her passion. It's where she believes she needs to be working. And so they've decided as a family that that's a great idea. But also she had to go back and study. So it's taken her three years to study. So he's had time to get used to it. They had time to save. So it hasn't happened overnight. But she's so excited and so delighted about this career shift that's finally going to eventuate. For her next year, but she's had time to process it and so has her partner.

That's great. I love that example. I think I can identify with that example, too.

Well. Yeah. Because your family, you know, you made a big change, right, in your life.

Yeah. My mom, my wife, my dad, everybody was just saying, hey, why don't you just stay a lawyer like everybody else and have consistent income? But I had other plans. Thankfully, it worked out. But those initial conversations were tough with Whitney, her finishing up residency. We have a young baby, and I have this idea to make this shift. So it was definitely difficult, but it can be done. And I really have to just thank the fact that I thought about it in terms of a negotiation, like, coaching myself through it, because I talked to a lot of other folks who are negotiation experts, and maybe, Maggie, you could speak to this too. But oftentimes when you have that personal interaction with a significant other, it's like my skills disappear. They just completely disappear, like what happened to me. So I know those conversations can be really tough. Yeah. It's funny.

I was actually having dinner with a friend last night, and she's a physiotherapist, and her husband has done his calf or something, and of course, he won't listen to her advice coming from her. Even though she's a physiotherapist, he won't listen to her. So I think it's that. It's that same thing when you're negotiating with someone you love. It can maybe not be as professional as perhaps what it would be in your working life. Kwame.

Exactly. That's a nice way to put it. I appreciate that.

But let me ask you this, Kami, really quickly. Like, you made a huge shift, right, from a lawyer towards developing this podcast in the American Negotiation Institute, which is. Which is huge now. Any regrets when you reflect on the journey you've taken?

No regrets as far as the professional journey? Definitely not. I think the only regret I have is that I didn't start the podcast sooner and I didn't start planting those seeds with my family sooner. With the latter, I just said, hey, I have this idea. Let's do it. Just assumed everybody would jump on board. And I think that's one of the things where you're somebody who. I guess they would call it technically a visionary. I heard a description that was really interesting. They said, for somebody who is a visionary, it's not that you just have these ideas. It's like, you literally see it. So it's very real. And so sometimes there's a disconnect, honestly. It's really a lack of empathy because I assume that other people see the world the way that I see it. And so when I think about things that are that I plan on accomplishing, the strategy down the road, the vision five years, I don't think about it in terms of that might happen. I think about it in terms of it will happen. But not everybody else sees things that way. And I think that's been a disconnect that I've had in those difficult conversations with family members just empathizing with the fact that they have different concerns. And those concerns are just as valid as mine.

Interesting. And so how do you bring them along in that, in that thought process journey a little sooner, perhaps?

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, we're all going to have our barriers, you know, and yeah, self awareness is the key.

It really is. Well, listen, maybe you and Whitney should also be joining the Success Sprint, Kwame, and we can unpack this together.

I know, I know. You'll be our counselor.

Yeah.

This is fantastic. Well, Maggie, I really appreciate this. And before you go, let the listeners know again about the Success Sprint and all the great work that you're doing at Pep Talk her.

Yeah, look, we would love to have you all join us. I'm such a fan of this podcast and the community that's that's been created as a result. So, yes, join us on the Success Sprint totally free pep talkher.com a NI which stands for the American Negotiation Institute. So, yeah, pep talkher.com and you can jump into the free five day success sprint challenge and then listen. The app's free as well. Pep Talkher. You can download it on Apple and Android. It's totally free. We've got a bunch of free resources. Peptalker.com and listen. I'm on LinkedIn, Maggie Palmer. So if anyone is listening, connect with me. I'd love to hear your story and stay in touch.

Fantastic, Maggie. Thank you again, my friend. Really appreciate it.

Always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

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