Reverse Interview: Emotional Intelligence in Leadership. A Conversation with Emily Horn

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Emily, thanks for joining us.

Hello. Thanks for having me, Kwame. This is so fun. This is one of the zooms on my schedule that I look forward to today.

Same. This is exciting. So how about we start off by telling the listeners about yourself and what you do.

Yes, I'm Emily Horne. I work for the California association of Realtors. That is the state trade association for realtors in California. And I am the senior vice president of leadership development. And what the heck does any of that mean is what usually the next question is for me when I tell anyone what I do. So my team and I at the California association of Realtors, we support the local associations and the volunteer leaders who are actually just realtors by day leaders who volunteer on the side of the regular day to day day business to better their industry, basically. So my team and I get to support all of those volunteers who are super dedicated to real estate and organized real estate in California. And we give them training and education and communication and just really support their success. And I know that's a really broad stroke summary of that, so please let me know what kind of questions you have about that or that a Normal person that doesn't know anything about this would have. Because it's a little squishy.

Well, yeah, but it's a broad mandate because the work that you do is very, very important. And the different ways that you help your. The members that you serve is very diverse. And I think that's one of the things that makes what you do so special because I think there might be an assumption where you're saying, okay, we're advocating for Realtors, so we're talking about policies, we're talking about giving them skills to get better deals, things like that. And of course that's what you do, but you all do so much more and it broadens your impact in a really powerful way.

Absolutely. And you're spot on. The advocacy in particular and shaping public policy at the state level that affect housing issues is really high on our priority list. And just making sure that the people in leadership positions for our organization are well equipped to do that and speak on behalf of not only Realtors, but also homeowners, future homeowners, and people of California who want to achieve that dream of homeownership. So that is the inspiring part that ultimately this all hopes. Hopefully, you know, our goal is to lead more people to achieve that dream in California, which is getting increasingly more challenging to do with affordability and such. So, yeah, so the work we do, we feel really proud of and we're really passionate about making leaders better and well appointed for those because those important positions.

I love it. And Emily, that provides us with a great segue into what we're going to talk about today. The skills that make leaders more effective. And I think a good way to start off is just kind of setting the stage for how we met each other and then give you an opportunity to spotlight the conference and then we can get straight into the questions.

Awesome. So we met each other because we had the good fortune of hiring you on as a. Our keynote speaker for a recent conference that my team and I put on, which was called Leadership Edge. EDGE is an acronym if anyone out there is in the real estate industry or you know it well, you know, acronyms are our life. We love acronyms. The mls, the car, the nar. There's actually a four page list document of acronyms if you ever want to study it. So EDGE stands for Empower, Develop, Grow and Excel. So this is a brand new conference we brought to the California association of Realtors this year. It was a four day event. It was all about educating, planning, all the things I just said, empowering our leaders in our association to be more effective, more informed, more empowered next year as they head into 2024. So it's four of inspiration. You kicked it off for us. And I was just telling you before we kind of officially logged on that you were our favorite speaker and that was evidenced in the data from our survey. You did all those things that I just said our conference is about. And I still had people come up to me throughout the week. That saying kwame helped my 18 year marriage stay alive. Like there was these epiphany moments that came out of that from the audience based on how you talked about negotiation not just in work, but in life. Because it's all one life that we live, right? Lots of different hats, but one life. So Kwame, you were such a treasure to meet and to have at that conference. And I'm so excited we get to continue this relationship by doing this right. So cool.

Thank you so much. That means a lot to me. It means a lot. Especially considering that I followed that amazing real estate wrap that you all put on. Like that parody wrap. That was so good.

Do you know who that was that did that?

Wasn't it somebody's brother?

Mine. So it's Eric Schwartz. Look him up. He's a really, really talented, funny comedian. He just came out with a new special actually. I'll just give a plug to that called Delivery. Eric Schwartz is. Happens to be my brother and he put on that awesome. That video. It was a kicked off the day and I think it was such a perfect setup for you because it was. You also exude this like very relaxed style, approachable. And that's what we wanted the conference to be. Not like a just we're telling you, wasn't a one way convers. This was an experience we wanted to create, not just an event. So that was a fun start. I'll share that video with you and I'll give you all the links. But you really kicked off our conference in that way where it was just created an experience where they were going to participate. That was the big part, right?

Absolutely. And that's the thing. When you're on stage in front of a few hundred or a few thousand people, it can feel like it's just one way communication. Somebody on stage just talking. But I still wanted to be engaging. So we had polls, we had questions. At the end, we answered, we did Q and A and then. And I was really excited when you all were open to doing the live recording of Negotiate anything on stage with the incoming president. That was really exciting. And again we got to go deeper into the content and then again go deeper into the questions that people had lingering. So again, we made it really practical and real, but still engaging so folks could stay focused and interested.

Absolutely. The two way conversation was key, and I think we really made sure that was throughout the conference. And you kicked that off was really huge. So thank you. Thank you.

No, my pleasure. And so, listeners, we got to a lot of the questions, but we didn't get to all of the questions. And so in this episode, Emily is going to be interviewing me. She's going to be asking me some of the lingering questions, and we're just going to keep the good times rolling.

I love it.

You've got the list, Emily. This is your show today.

I do. You were nice enough to give me the list of things that we didn't have time for, and some of them are making me laugh. How do you handle it? See, tell the serial story. Oh, I think that was. Did that ever happen?

Yes, that was from my PED talk, Emily. So setting the stage here. And maybe listeners haven't heard the TED Talk too. So when I started a. And I, I did a TED Talk, and I was trying to figure out how I should start this off, because you know my style, I'm really conversational. Super chill.

Yeah.

But then I get this vibe like, this is a TED Talk. This is a big deal. You have to be super serious. And that's how people approach this. But I'm like, that's not me. So what a conflict. I know. So I was like, how do I do this? So what I did was I kind of set people up, making it seem like it was really serious. I'm a business lawyer and negotiation consultant. So my professional life centers on effective conflict resolution. So today I'm going to tell you about my most serious conflict. So in order for you to fully wrap your head around the gravity of this situation, there's something you need to know about me. And then I pause, and then I click the slide and it's a picture of cinnamon toast crunch. And I said, I love cinnamon toast crunch.

Oh, my gosh.

And so I tell this whole story about how Whitney was eating my cinnamon toast crunch. And after a long day, that's all I wanted. So I go home and I just want to relax and eat cereal and pretend like there were no problems in the world.

And we all need one of those nights.

Yeah, right. And I come home and Whitney ate all my cereal. It was gone. So instead of having a tough conversation, what I do is I Lash out by eating all of her granola. And I don't even like granola. So that was exactly vengeance. That was my strategy. Not the best strategy. So really I use that as an example to talk about how conflict is a central part of everybody's lives. But a lot of times we don't have the skills necessary or we don't even recognize that there is an opportunity. Opportunity to utilize skills to turn these difficult conversations into opportunities. So I wanted to make sure that I approached this really heavy topic with something light at the beginning so people could say, oh, yeah, I am negotiating all the time. I am having all these tough conversations. And I'm not the only person who struggles with it because this dude should do better. But we all struggle with it. So that's how I open things up.

What I love most about that is, like, you humanize the whole thing. And which always puts everyone at ease, I think even my interactions at work, I think something I really value and I value in others is just that humanness and vulnerability in conversations. Without that piece, we're just having a transactional conversation that doesn't. Feels like the connection is just totally missed. And I find all of my meaningful, even difficult conversations that have gone well have all boiled down to both parties being vulnerable enough to, like, say the real thing, say the hard thing, and be real. Right?

Yes, absolutely. And the thing is, like, we forget that fundamental aspect of communication that we are people talking to people. That's it. And sometimes kind of like that conundrum I was having internally with authenticity with the TED Talk, I need to look and sound professional. This is what a professional sounds like. That's not what a person sounds like. Just be you and connect. And again, it leads to. There's that vulnerability when we think about creating psychological safety so people feel comfortable sharing. But even that vulnerability to be yourself. And I think a lot of times when you are authentic, it gives other people the license to be authentic as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think that's important in leadership in particular. That's something we talk about a lot. Our team or the conversations or the education that we provide to our realtor leaders is that you have to lead by example. Right. You've got to do that and show that vulnerability and authenticity if you want others to have permission to do the same.

Absolutely. Yes. Oh, that's great.

So there's so many good questions here. I'm going to start with one that really speaks to me because I think this is a challenging one. And what the question that someone asked was how do you maintain your ethical standards while negotiating aggressively? And in this case, it's talking about the real estate market, but it could be about a lot of different things. But it's a very competitive real estate market. It's really tight market. In California in particular, there's not a lot of inventory. There's not a lot homes to be sold. So buyers are competitive. So you could relate this to a lot of different things. But how do you maintain those ethical standards while negotiating aggressively? How do you hold both of those things at the same time?

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. It's tough. It's a delicate tension that we all have to keep in mind. And I think a lot of times we struggle with it because we haven't taken the time to evaluate what it really means, especially under duress. So most of the time when we go into difficult conversations, let me just say anybody, if anybody goes into a difficult conversation, most of the time they're not planning on lying. Most of the time they're not planning on being unethical. A lot of times when they blur that line, it is because they are confronted with a stimulus that they were not prepared for. And it's often a fear response. You want to hear a ridiculous example? I saw this last week. Sometimes I like to waste time looking at memes. Dumbest stuff in the world.

Yeah.

So I saw this video of this man in a fast food restaurant line. This man has a gun in his pocket. He shoots himself in the leg by accident. Everybody hears the gunshot because it's loud. And then they look at him, they're like, what was that? And he says, I don't know.

What?

No. I watched this thing so many times. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. What did I miss here? No fear response. I shot myself in the leg. That's super embarrassing. What do I do? I lie about it. And he's probably like, did I just lie about shooting myself in the leg? Yes. Absurd. He was not planning about lying about shooting himself in the leg, Emily. Right. I don't think that was on his list of things to do that day.

Okay, can I just share with you something personal that I lied about in a similar situation? You can unpack this for me. Because after I did it, it was. I lied. And it was about something so silly, way less painful than what you just described. Oh, my goodness. There's so much to say about that. But I was at a conference in Anaheim recently, and I'm not even a Disney person. Let's just get that out of the way. I'm only a Disney person when it relates to, like, I have young children. I know you have. Funny. We've talked about this. And going to Disney with them is quite the joy that I never even thought I would. I never expected as a parent. I was floored at how joyful it was to see your children experiencing the magic of Disneyland for the first, second, third, fourth, whatever time. So, anyway, let's just get that out of the way. Not a Disney person. However, I was there by myself at the conference. I had one day to myself that I just didn't have a lot of things to go to. And I'm like, I'm gonna go to Disneyland by myself and see how that feels. And I went to California Adventure. Cause I felt like that was, like, a little bit more adult because they serve cocktails there. So anyway, so I went to California Adventure by myself, which was very, very out of character for me. And I just felt kind of free and fancy free, like, getting in line by myself, the single rider line, and eating the junk food. And then I ran into people I knew. My identity as a person felt at risk. I don't even know what that means. It just means, like, this is not who I am. I am not a Disney person. I am supposed to be at the conference, first of all. Well, they were too. And I am by myself. And I felt so ridiculous that I was by myself that I lied to them when I ran into them. It was a big group of people. Five people are like, emily, what are you doing here? Are you by yourself? And I'm like, no, I was with some other people, but they went on some other rides. I made up a story because I could not handle the identity of being there by myself in Disneyland. It was just not my identity. And then they kept asking more questions. They're like, well, who are you with? I was like, just tell them. And I was so deep into this life. Tell me what was going on for me right there.

Exactly. So this is it. This is a perfect, perfect example. So we're confronted with a situation you didn't consider, and you don't feel comfortable with the truth in that moment, but you want to respond quickly. And so we're running through a series of bad options, and then we pick one, and then we say, oh, my gosh, I'm stuck. It's an emotional thing. We weren't thinking logically. We feel that fear, and we lie as a fear response. So one thing to do when we're trying to wrestle with these ethical conundrums, first of all, we should do our homework beforehand. It's tough in this situation. You didn't expect this one, Right. But in a negotiation, we want to think through how we could run into these possible tensions. And if somebody is going to ask a sensitive question or could potentially ask a sensitive question, we need to figure out a way that we answer truthfully without hurting ourselves unnecessarily. Right? So that's one thing. The other thing is just simply slowing things down, just recognizing being more mindful of those moments where this is a moment in the interaction where it is more important. I call these inflection points. So great negotiators are able to recognize where these inflection points are. And it's not so much that they know exactly what to do or say in those moments, but they do know that it's time to slow it down and inject some intentional thought. Because sometimes there's a difference between facts and feelings. But in the moment, they can feel the same way. Right? So you can answer emotionally, but you have to recognize that telling yourself. And then I think we have to kind of be creative in finding a way to think through these circumstances in a way that is authentic to you. So, for instance, especially when you think about ethics and those type of things, different people might have different ethics, different values, and things like that. So for me, this is the way that I think about it. So when I'm negotiating, I always envision that my parents, my grandparents, my family, they're watching me. And so I always ask myself, am I carrying myself in a way that would make my family proud?

I love that.

That one helps a lot. I think about every negotiation as if it is an email that could be sent around to everybody. So I'm like, if somebody sends around this email, would they say, yeah, Kwame carried himself well or not? So when I think about negotiation, I think about it bigger picture. So it's not just this interaction My reputation is brought into every single negotiation. And my reputation is one of the most persuasive things I have at my disposal. So if doing something that is ethical and is leading to a good, positive reputation in this moment, if that hurts me in this particular negotiation, then that's a knock I'm going to have to take because I'm playing a bigger game.

Got it. I love that. I think that gives really important accountability to your behavior. Right. When you really broaden it to what if others hurt me? This is more about my reputation than the single interaction. I think it puts more weight on the importance of, like, you behaving in a way that you're proud of and that you would stand behind, as opposed to, like, going down the road that some of us do. We're human. The bad behavior, so to speak, or things that are not productive.

Absolutely. And I think a lot of times when it comes down to emotions, it's not just the stimulus, but it's our perception of the stimulus. So what we need to do is if we shift our perspective, it changes the way that we interact. So, for example, one of the things I love to do is when I'm in the plane, I love looking at everything in the world getting smaller as I'm going up in the plane. And what's interesting is that as the further we get from the world, it changes our perspective of the world because everything looks small. When you think about the astronauts, one thing that all of the astronauts say is that they say every world leader should go up to space so they could see Earth not from their own perspective, but from a space like a galactic perspective. We are all just parts of the same global citizenship. Right. We are just all on this little blue marble. And when we see it from that perspective, we see how similar we all are. And so, bringing it back to this conversation, when I think about it through the lens of a committee or an email, I'm taking it out of my own narrow perspective. I'm saying other third parties looking at me, they don't know what's happening emotionally inside of me. They just see the outcome. They just see what I'm saying. So if I look at it from their perspective, it kind of widens my aperture, so I can not be as emotionally attached to what's happening. And I could make a more objective decision in the moment.

Oh, my gosh. You're hitting on so many things that we all deal with every day, but especially that emotional piece. It's like, how do you hold that taking that emotion out or I don't know if you said it that way, but just really having perspective on the emotional component so that you could walk through that negotiation, that conversation in a more objective or, like, curious way. How do you do that when you also are really passionate about that topic? There's a lot of emotion is really important. Right. Because we advocate for some things that are really important to us, maybe in that conversation. But how do you do that while also listening in a more objective way and hearing that person?

Yeah. So a couple of things. Let's go back a few years to ancient Greece. When we think about, like, the persuasive triad. So when Aristotle was talking about persuasion, we have logos, pathos and ethos. So we have ethics appealing to morals and things like that. We have logos. This is more logical approaches. And then pathos, which is passion. And so they recognize that the best rhetoricians, the people who spoke the best.

Mostly I don't know the word either.

And most persuasively were able to introduce elements of all three at the right time. Time. So what I think about it turning the dial, because I recognize that if I'm just completely sterile and emotionless in the way that I approach this, it's not going to be as persuasive because it doesn't show that I care enough. So I need a little bit of passion, but I need to make sure I'm controlling that. So I'm thinking about what is the right dosage for this situation, how much passion do I need, how much logic do I need, how much do I appeal to our shared values? And what's interesting is that it's completely a matter of degree and it depends on the person in front of us. So we need to shift from egocentric negotiation and egocentric persuasion, where we are saying, I'm going to focus on myself and the things that I would find to be persuasive in the situation. And then I am going to regurgitate an argument that would be persuasive to me, to you. Instead, we need to switch it to empathetic persuasion. So I'm going to listen in order to understand you. I'm going to empathize to understand your perspective. How do you see the situation? How do you think about the situation? How do you feel about the situation? I'm going to download that data. I'm going to listen to that. That from you, because you're the only person who knows how you feel about this, how you think about this, and how you're seeing this. Great. I'm going to get that from you. And then I am going to tailor my arguments for you. You might feel really passionate about this. Great. I am going to give a more passion based argument. You might be very logical and methodical in the way that you're thinking about it. Great. I'm going to tone down the passion and focus on approaching it in that way. And so what we have to do is we need to be able to take a step back and remove our focus on ourselves and what matters to us and instead shine the spotlight on them. And I recognize the more that I focus on the other person, the easier it is for me to manage my own emotions. Because I'm not taking things as personally. I think about it from a lens of curiosity. Hmm, that was kind of disrespectful. I wonder why in this moment they thought that was the best tool to utilize. So I'm not going to take that personally. I'm going to be curious, all right. I'm going to ask questions, I'm going to acknowledge and validate the emotions, try to lower the emotional temperature of the room while at the same time figuring out what. What was the roots of that emotionality so I can speak to that specific thing persuasively.

Wow. So that empathy really allows you. Like you said, when you really let empathy lead, you're seeing how it may feel in those shoes of the other person instead of just staying in your own shoes and just seeing it from your perspective. Because you could create a narrative that's really not productive. Not true. Like you just said, why are you so rude to me and making it about you? If you're curious enough, and I think this is a real growth area for all of us, definitely me. If you stay curious enough to go, hmm, they seem triggered by that. Why would they be? Or just really seeing their point of view instead of. And then it takes you out of the equation, which I think a lot of times gets in the way.

Absolutely. And again, we have to recognize and respect the fact that a lot of times you might understand what they're saying, you might hear what they're saying, and then the problem is we don't really respect it because it doesn't resonate with us. But what we have to do is we have to respect that from their perspective. It makes sense to them. That's all I need to know. So when we're acknowledging, when we're validating what they're saying, when we are empathizing, we're not necessarily agreeing what they're saying, nor are we Endorsing it. We just need to show them the respect to show that we understand them. Listen, I'm going to cite my sources. I'm just going to go deep into the memes. Today I was watching another one and it was this father with a two year old, same age as Dominic. And Whitney, said this to me just to say, hey, Kwame, it's not just you, because the two year old was having a tantrum. So the dad's like, so you want your water? Yes. The dad gives him the bottle of water and the kids know and throws it down. She's like, see, watch. This is what he really wants. He wants his mother to give him the water. But. And so he goes and gives the water to the wife and the mother of the child gives it to the son. No, that's not what he wants. He wants the mother to get up and walk to the table, pick the water up herself and give it to him. So the fact that the husband had any part of this was the problem, Right?

Oh, that's so brutal.

Doesn't make sense. But it's what he wanted in that moment, right? So it's like, okay, cool. In the real estate perspective, immense amounts of disrespect, but respectful. I mean, we could say, all right, cool. I don't, don't agree with you, nor do I endorse this, but at least now I understand it. And now that level, that baseline level of understanding puts me in a position where I can problem solve. And so I think it shifts our perspective from common ground to common understanding. Because with common ground, there's a misperception that I can't advance in this conversation unless we're on the same page moving forward. But when you think about common understanding, now we're saying, all right, my goal right now is to understand you and help you to understand me. Me. We don't need to agree, but we can still build positive momentum in this conversation and this relationship if we at least check that minimal box of understanding. So we can still get deals done even if we don't agree on these particular niche points within the conversation. But if we can start building on understanding, we might not agree on the past, we might not agree on the present, but as long as in this conversation, we can agree on a productive path forward that is. Is workable for both of us, that's good enough in a lot of these situations.

I like that. Common understanding versus common ground, that really speaks to me. So this is one of the questions that we got from our audience that I think is a good one, and it's appropriate to maybe the next step of what we're talking about. When do you know when it's time to walk away from a negotiation?

This is a tough one because it's not just a question of whether or not we can get a deal that works. There are other factors in this too. So, for example, we have to think about, with the information that we gathered during this conversation, is this a person that I even want to work with? Right. Let's take the comical example with the child and bring it to something that's a little bit more serious because there might be some kind of bias or bigotry that might be at play. So this person is the same race as me, the same religion as me, the same background as me. So I want to work with that person and I don't want to work with you. You. Right. So I might get to the point where I understand that that's where you're coming from. I clearly don't agree. And then there might be a way for me to solve that problem, which might be saying, okay, Mr. Client or Mrs. Client, I'm going to reassign you to somebody who matches the background, the racial background, the religious background, the ethnic background. That works for you. But then you have to take a step back as a leader. I do know how to solve this problem. The question is, am I willing to solve this problem because it violates my underlying value values? Right. So when we're thinking about it through that lens, we might recognize, all right, I know how to get this deal done. The question is, should I still get this deal done? So that's another thing. Is the vibe, right? Do I feel safe? Do I feel comfortable? Does this align with my values? There are a number of reasons that are entirely legitimate and maybe not based in business fundamentals that might dictate that a deal should not get done in this circumstance. There's certain circumstances where I know I could get the deal done, where I could see just the positive momentum, the incremental growth in my position and improvement in my position in this negotiation. But I don't have the time in this moment to get the deal done. So I might say to myself, I could be doing a lot of other productive work rather than maximizing the deal value to get to a point where this is workable. So I might let go of a winnable deal simply because of time, because there I have other considerations. So what we have to do is beforehand, we have to prepare and think about what our walk away point is. But a lot of times people struggle because they only put a financial value on that walk away point. So then when they're in confronted with these more values based types of or relationship based types of considerations, they haven't thought about that and it might lead them to stay in a deal that they should have walked away from. So I think in beforehand in our preparations, as we're negotiating with ourselves, we have to think about what is workable for us not just financially but also relationship wise, also values wise. And so that helps us to be a lot more nimble in the middle of a conversation. So we could set up up firm boundaries to say no, this does not work for me. And here's why. So also that time consideration as well, because sometimes I just put a stop clock in my mind. If I can't get this deal done by this time, I'm going to walk away from it. And one rule and different negotiators feel differently about this. But I'm really consistent on this. I don't bluff. I don't bluff. I offer warnings and I make promises, but I don't bluff because in my opinion that hurts my reputation. If I get known as somebody who bluffs and I don't follow through on that, then people say, hey, Pump doesn't stand by his word. He says this is his best and final offer, but if you push him, he'll flip. So if I say I'm walking, I'm walking. So I want to communicate clearly and authentically with people so people know when Kwame says this is his walk away, that's his walk away. So I need to be consistent with that internal negotiation with myself to say I'm going to close this deal, I'm going to commit to this deal with me. And I say if we don't hit these specific numbers by this specific time, I will have this specific action. And that consistency internally is reflected in the confident articulation of my position externally too.

Love that something. I was smiling as you were saying that because it occurred to me that parenting is no different. You know, there's so many times where I don't bluff in work. I'm very similar just described. But I will tell you, when you're working with a toddler, I don't have toddler anymore like you do. But six year old, I'm like, if you don't behave, we're not going to do Hanukkah tonight. I know that that is not true. I know that, that there's nothing about that statement. It is a bluff. So My question to you, call me as a personal one. Do you stay as consistent as a parent?

Not at all. Not at all. I wanted to. And then you get desperate. I remember. You want to hear the worst bluff ever?

Yes.

I said it as a joke, but then it worked. And I'm like, oh, man, I'm sticking to this. I worked this for months. So when. When Kai was. I think it was like three. It's so funny because they're people, but they're learning how to be people. They don't know exactly what's real.

Yeah.

So I said. And I was like, kai, if you do not get in bed right now, I'm gonna turn you into a walrus.

Oh, you went big. You went big.

I went big. And then he's like, wait, what? You could do that? And I said, yeah. What do you think happened to your brother Steve? And he's like, oh, my God, there is. He's like, there is no brother Steve. And then I pretended to cry. I'm like, we don't like talking about Steve. I brought up this picture of a walrus. I showed it to him. I was like, this is Steve. This is Steve. He got in bed, and then I left the room. And I was like, oh, my God. He thought I was serious. Now I'm in deep now. Now we got a walrus son.

Like, remembering his birthdays. A dead walrus son, like, there's a lot going on.

It gets dark. So now we let him know that was a joke. But every once in a while when he's testing me, I'm like, man, I'm going to turn you into a walrus. He's like, there is no brother Steve. Stop talking about Steve. Dad, that.

Oh, my gosh. Did that just come to you in the moment? That's hilarious.

Yes. You can tell with the way that I present, the majority of what I say on stage was not, like, scripted or planned. So it's just how your mind works. Yeah. Sometimes when I see a question, I'm like, man, I want to see what Kwame does with this. This is intriguing.

Oh, my gosh. That's so good. The walrus. I feel like I already missed the boat on that. I have a six year old. They're too smart for you at that point. I really missed that one.

One. Never too late. Give it a try.

Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious. Okay, I have another question for you about tone, the volume of your voice, the way you're talking, how it feels for the other person. What's your thoughts on how to maintain a productive tone that's going to keep the conversation moving and the goal moving forward without letting your emotions get in the way. But you have them. We all do. While we're talking about something we're passionate about.

A great question. So I am going to set the foundation using different identities of Kwame Christian. So I'm going to start off with Kwame, the guy who has a undergrad degree in psychology. Then I want to end it as Kwame the lawyer. So first we have to recognize the psychology of mirror neurons. So these are nerve receptors that reflect back the emotions that we see. So the example I gave during the keynote is if somebody yawns, other people are going to yawn, right? That's just how the brain works. So if you smile, a lot of times, people reciprocate. But if you give negative vibes, negative energy, they reciprocate too. So a lot of times if you bring negative energy, like a tone that seems aggressive, or they think you're yelling or you're being disrespectful, regardless of your intent, it will be perceived negatively and psychologically, they'll give that energy back to you. It turns this conversation into a downward spiral. So that's psychology that we need to keep in mind. Now, Kwame the lawyer, will respond with it depends, because a lot of times that's context dependent. So think about this from the lens of culture. So I live in America. I'm American, but my family's from the Caribbean, so I'm Caribbean American. So the conversations I can have and the way that I have them with my family is very different from the way that I have with my American friends, Because we can have a much higher volume and be seemingly more aggressive within my family, but still be completely okay, because culturally that form of communication is better accepted. But then I don't approach witness, who is a American, the exact same way, because it would be seen as very aggressive. So you have to be able to understand the context to see what would be appreciated from the other person. And when you think about culture, not just through the lens of nationality, geography and ethnicity, but you also think about culture, just broadening your definition to say, just the way that we do things, whoever we happens to be in this situation, then you realize that even within a department, within an organization, we might talk to each other a certain way in the marketing department, and we might talk to each other a certain way in the legal department part, and that's going to be different too. So what we have to do is we need to understand who the person is on the other side. So this is a blend between EQ and cq, which is cultural intelligence. So we have emotional intelligence to understand the other person. Then we have that other layer of cultural intelligence to understand the cultural nuances that would be at play. Because the emotional understanding of the person and the understanding of the culture will dictate what an appropriate tone will be be. So it's not just about managing your tone and trying to lower the emotional resonance of your tone so people don't feel as negative during the conversation. It's also recognizing that perception will change depending on the person, the context, and the culture as well.

Wow. Culture. That culture piece is really important when I don't think we talk about it enough about eq. I'm really glad you brought that up because we do talk about this in a lot of our leadership training and education.

And.

And it's essential, obviously, in especially these human conversations we're having, so that we can really like with all the things you've been saying, understand where that person's coming from and really be able to have that empathy factor. What are your techniques or guidance for leaders, especially trying to build EQ within themselves? And also I want to know, do you think we're born with it to a certain extent? Do we learn it as a combination and how do we build that?

Yes. We have to recognize that people start off with different baselines. So let's use an extreme example. People who might identify as empaths, so they absorb the emotionality of other people. So that's good because they have a high degree of understanding of how somebody is feeling emotionally. But it tips too heavily towards sympathy, where it's not only that they understand what the person is feeling, but they also feel what the person is feeling, which could lead them to make inappropriate concessions at the negotiation table. Right. So I think when it comes to building the emotional intelligence of a leader, it's not just having the ability to empathize and understand what the other person is saying, is also understanding your unique psychological makeup, your personality, to understand how you will interact with the emotions of another person. Because let's say somebody has a situation where growing up, they experience verbal abuse. So that person. I've coached people like this who say, whenever somebody gives me criticism, no matter how it is given, it reminds me of my parents calling me stupid when I was a little kid. So I respond violently, aggressively, verbally to that. So they have to understand how, even though the person might be approaching them in a completely reasonable way, the way that they perceive it because of their personal trauma will be very different. So it's not just being able to understand other people, but also understand yourself because your perception of other people will be filtered through your own lived experience. So that's one thing. I think a lot of leaders often, often tip to the other side where they can be very successful and get to that point of being a leader within their company because they're so focused on the job at hand. I get things done, I get results, and then I'm here. And so they assume other people can do that and kind of push through and bully through their own emotions in order to get things done. So a lot of leaders struggle with empathy because they say, for me, I just push my emotions aside and push through, so the other person should do that too. So. So for those folks, I say that we have to remember that empathy is a skill. Empathy is a skill. So for instance, when I did my strengths finder a few years ago, empathy registered as like the last thing out of 32 strengths. Empathy was last. And so when I sent that to my friends, they were shocked. They were absolutely shocked because what came up, number one, competitive, strategic, like those type of things. So what I told them is that like I had to learn how to be empathetic, I had to practice this, I had to think about it as a skill and focus on taking the perspective of other people. And as I started to do that with more consistency, it became a habit. And now I can do it authentically and automatically. But I didn't get there overnight. I had to practice that skill with intentionality. So it's about not just generally getting the understanding of how to read other people manage their emotions and things like that. It's also having the ability to do a little bit of introspection and have the self awareness to understand how you interact with the emotions of other people. Because it's both of us existing in this interaction. So we have to have a deep understanding of both if we're going to be affected.

Absolutely. I relate to so much of what you're saying. Being a manager now versus when I started my career like 18 years ago. Oh, it's night and day. And I'm so sorry to those who were my guinea pigs in the beginning, who I really didn't under. I thought I had a very linear thought of what management looked like, which was just like if you're the boss, you tell them what to do and they should do it and they kind of like can't really have feelings about it because just what they're supposed to do. I know this sounds so cold and bizarre but that's what I thought and I didn't have the confidence or experience and I was a very young manager at the time and I just didn't know. It was just what I saw from my experience as like being managed by others. And it's a very, I would say old school archaic approach. And fast forward to today. I mean I am so invested in my employees success and their whole self. We know each other well. I sincerely care about their well being not only at work but in their like life. And it is a beautiful relationship that we've created because I realized that whole top down approach. No, it's a two way street. So everything you're saying really resonates especially as I look back on my management career in particular.

Yeah. And I think that's really important for people to recognize like we can grow in this. And just giving yourself the space to grow and acknowledging where we came from and recognizing where we want to go. I think that's the first step because a lot of times people say this is who I am and it doesn't change. It's like okay, well when you think about empowering, developing, growing and excelling, what you need to do is you need to recognize that you can change.

Yeah.

Or you're just going to stay the same and struggle with the same problems over and over again.

And something else you said was I think it's like our natural instinct to like look for others that operate exactly like us and think like us and when they don't, you're like what the heck? Why aren't you doing this the way that I would? You should automatically know that that's how you should do this. I have really evolved from that. Because by the way, surprise, that does not work at all. And you don't want to have just a bunch of views on your team. You actually want a very broad, diverse variety of skills and strengths that contributes to the whole. And that's what makes the magic happen. But it's funny how I think that was the natural instinct was I just need people exactly like me that think like me, that have similar experiences and the result was disastrous.

Yep. Listen, it's true. But we have to recognize that affinity bias, that bias. You are like me, so I like you. And this is just a natural thing that we have to overcome. We're not going to do it in accidentally because we feel that resistance. Like I don't really vibe with that person. Oh yeah. Because they're different.

Right.

We need that intellectual diversity. I tell people all the time, the last thing that we need on this team is another Kwame because nobody would check emails and just be flowing. We need some structure here.

Isn't that true? My team would be no more Emily's. We have enough of that. Yeah, I like that intellectual diversity. And I know we have to close up soon, but I think diversity, I'm hearing people, I think of a very narrow view sometimes of what diversity means about like, yeah, race, religion, color, ethnicity, those kind of like what you'd think gender, typical almost diverse elements. And I think it's so much broader than that and so important to think of it broader because of what you just said. It's like you want diverse thought, you want diverse. The experiences create different outcomes, comes the how those people think, their perspective, their skills, their strengths and all of that. And diversity is so much bigger than what everyone fights about it being.

Absolutely. And I think one thing that's often overlooked is this, because we have California association of Realtors, we have the American Negotiation Institute, we have whatever organization is here. That organization has a specific purpose for me. We, our motto is we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So we want to help as many people as possible to have these difficult conversations at the highest level so they can have their best version of their lives, whatever that happens to be. So I recognize that I think about diversity in terms of a competitive advantage. I want intellectual diversity, I want different thought ways of thinking so we can bring the best ideas to the table. And the best ideas aren't always going to come from me. But a lot of times we think about diversity in this purely surface level thing. And as a result, we might have. Have a surface level diversity where people might look different, we might check those boxes. But at the end of the day, we have people who look different who think all the same way. And then sometimes we do diversity to the detriment of the efficacy of the business. So we have to be really focused on what it is that we're hoping to accomplish and then think about what diversity and inclusion really means. So diversity of thought in a way that advances the business objectives, inclusion to make sure everybody feels as though they are a valued member of the team so we can advance business objectives. And if we're not doing this in a way that advances business objectives, then we're missing the boat in some kind of way. It becomes a lot clearer when we take it away from an ideological perspective and just think about it. At the end of the day, it has to come down to efficacy and treating people the right way in order to make sure that we accomplish our business objectives.

Yes. Awesome. If you haven't noticed, I'm taking notes as you talk because all of this is very helpful to me in my day to day work.

That's great.

Yes.

I love this and this is fun for me because usually I'm here asking the questions, you know, but this is more in line with what a regular keynote and engagement is because I don't think about it as a presentation. It's just a conversation. We just have to flex to make sure that it's conversation that makes sense for the group. And even if it's a big group, we can still go back and forth and we get a lot deeper into the content when we are able to actually ask specific questions on the content that pertain to the real world. Because it's easy for presenters and speakers to kind of hide behind the presentation, just say our piece in peace, out, without facing any kind of potential scrutiny or challenge.

You're kind of describing a lot, maybe the majority of keynotes that I've seen. I've seen a lot of speakers at a lot of conferences over my career and I think a lot of times I find myself walking away from them going, that was good. I can't think of one thing that I'm going to take away that is making me think or even about something differently. It's just like, that was good, but the takeaway is not there. And the actual implementable pieces, and I think that's something you do really uniquely and well, is that you speak to the audience in a way and share information in a way that they actually are engaged in, they're interacting in. I mean, literally because they're asking you their questions, like, as you go, you're answering them and talking to them about it, but just how it can be the real, real life stuff, like the real life examples, not just like theory. Really, really good stuff. I appreciate you and I'm so glad we got connected and we're going to continue this conversation. I know.

Thank you so much and this was a lot of fun. And thank you for accepting the invite and coming on the pod. And before you go, let the listeners know about what's coming down the pike in 2024.

Oh, my gosh. So much for the California association of Realtors. Really challenging market. We're just really focused on making our members as successful as possible. And. And amongst the many challenges, not just the market but the environment, there's some legal battles, talking about commissions, that's been really hard that you probably heard about. And just navigating the noise, I think, and making sure we are a really strong business partner for our members so that they can get more deals done and that homeowners can benefit, obviously, in California and get more people into homes. So I know that's a really broad response, but that's really the overarching goal. And my team in particular is going to double down on our leadership training and make sure we have the right leaders in place place to lead that path, that really difficult one in this market and this environment.

Love it. Well, I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on the show and listeners. We will put links in the description so you can check out what Emily and the California association of Realtors are up to.

Nice. Thanks, Kwame. Appreciate your time.

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