Reverse Interview: Negotiation Strategies for Career Advancement - Njsane Courtney, SPHR, SHRM-SCP Interviews Kwame Christian , Esq., M.A.

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Jasani. Welcome back to the podcast, my friend.

Hey, Kwame, glad to be back. Thanks for inviting me back, man.

Yeah, man. We're excited to have you. So for the listeners who didn't hear your first episode, how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Absolutely.

In my main job, in terms of how I pay the bills, I'm a VP of HR at a oil and gas company down here in good old Houston in Texas. With the bipolar weather. No, it's totally bipolar. That's a different podcast, though. But I'm also the host of the My Friend in HR podcast, where we just like you, we give people tools to be successful in life, and we focus on how do we get people to have career fulfillment, how do we get armed people who aren't in HR who don't know those inner workings that don't know what's going on behind the lines? And how do we give them the tools and knowledge to take control of their career and have that fulfilling career or just find their right path to grant them that professional level of peace?

I love it, man. Yes, I'm Biased. But I was excited to see when you're getting into the podcast game because it's so much fun. It is so much fun. And you reach so many people so efficiently too.

Absolutely, absolutely. First of all, just for your listeners to be aware, the only reason why I got into the podcast scene is because of Kwame. This guy, I'm telling you, he has a gift for inspiring people when he doesn't even know it. Right. It's just such a special skill he does without even being aware. But after you and I talked last time, I said, you know what? I need to take his advice and take a look at it. And so fortunately, I did some homework. May, we launched our first episode and you're doing quite well. But again, I'm trying to be like Kwame when I grow up. You know what I mean?

I appreciate it, man. That means a lot. That means a lot. And this is a perfect segue too, into this episode, because this is going to be your opportunity, listeners, to get a sneak peek on what my friend is in HR is like. So this is going to be a reverse interview. Jasani is going to be interviewing me. And so you'll be able to hear this episode not only on the Negotiate Anything feed, but also on his podcast too. So make sure you check out his show. We're going to link to that in the description. So if you could go show him some love, that would be really, really cool.

All right, thanks so much. And so I'm going to start off with one of our most hard hitting episodes, and I want to say it was episode three where we talked about negotiating offers, negotiating offers of employment. I believe you and I talked about this last year on our last episode, but I'm really keen to get your insight. So when we talk about negotiating for an offer of employment, a person's been going through the interview process for a while. They may have a severe financial situation going on where getting this job is just extremely important. And then that HR person calls and they say, hey, Kwame, we'd love you to join our company. And here's the offer. Here's a salary, here's a vacation. A lot of people tell me that they are hesitant to negotiate. They have this fear. In your opinion, And I love. I can't wait. I'm so excited to get your perspective being, you know, coming from outside of hr. Why do you think people are so hesitant to negotiate when it comes to things like a new offer?

I think a lot of times, especially when somebody is unfamiliar with the process of negotiation, In a business context, there's a lot of fear around this because there's a fear of loss. I'm afraid that they're going to pull this offer. I need this job. I want this job. And I don't want to create any potential barrier to getting the job. But the problem is that it is based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of the negotiation process. Because, yeah, if you go and you have you treat the person disrespectfully, then they're going to say, yeah, I don't like this person. They're not going to say, I don't like that this person negotiated. They're going to say, I don't like you. Right. And really, the way I think about it is that negotiation is an opportunity for you to showcase new business skills because at some capacity, you're going to be. Once you join the company, you're going to have to have difficult conversations with your colleagues. You might be representing the company outside of the company walls as well. And so if you can comport yourself in a respectful way and advocate for what you want to need, it often is a signal for the company because it shows that you're more likely to be able to advocate for the company for what's best for its interest as well. So we have to change that premise where we're saying, okay, I am afraid to negotiate because I believe that if I negotiate, I might get the offer pulled. Most of the time, that doesn't happen. Now, let me tell you a story, though, because I was coaching somebody and I was telling them, I was like, hey, I've coached people in salary negotiations for a while. That was a different time when I was doing that type of coaching. But they were saying, oh, I'm afraid if I negotiate, they might pull the offer. And I was like, that has literally never happened in my experience coaching people. And it's very rare that ever happened. So go ahead and negotiate. And so what happened? She goes, she negotiates, and then they pull the offer. No.

Are you serious, kid?

You not? And I was terrified. I was like, oh, my gosh, I ruined it. I ruined it. So now fast forward six months down the line or getting coffee, and she's filling me in. She's like, hey, Kwame, you remember that job I applied for? I was like, yeah. She's like, I am so glad that this did not work out because they have had, like, three people in that same position since I left. And so if somebody responds really poorly to you advocating for your own needs in a respectful manner, that's often a sign of problematic dysfunction within that organization. And if you're going to be penalized for respectful advocacy for yourself, then that's not an organization you ultimately want to work for. Right. So we have to recognize that negotiation isn't just about deal making. Like I always say, it's about deal discovery. That's what the art of negotiation is about. And so as I'm trying to negotiate the best deal possible, I'm also negotiating for information to learn more about the company culture through this process of negotiation. Because I might learn something about the company that might make me realize that I don't want this deal. It's still not the right deal for me. So I think really what we have to do is we have to address the mindset that might be at play and, and the self limiting beliefs that are holding us back.

Absolutely. And you know, I swear to God, it sounds like you listen to my podcast because you said like three or four things that I said. I've been in HR for 21 years and I have never heard of a company pulling back an offer just because someone dared to negotiate better compensation. And your, and your colleague is absolutely right. It does sound like they dodged a bullet because that is a window into the soul of the culture of that company. If you're not even an employee yet and they're already penalizing you for having independent thought. And if that's how they are, you know, it's the dating phase, right. When you're negotiating, when you're having that dance, we're in the dating phase, it doesn't get any, it's not going to get any more positive than that. And so once you become an employee, you're no longer a candidate, you're now staff. And so that unfortunately, there's a bit of a difference in dynamic, but absolutely I agree with everything you said that candidates should never, ever be afraid to negotiate. And the other thing I'll throw in, I'd love to get your perspective as well. The other side of this is there's a business side of this. By the time they call you and they say, kwame, we want you to have, we want you to come join the company, here's to hear the terms of the offer. By the time they get to that stage, they've spent man hours and person hours and recruiting agencies. They spend a lot of resources to get to that point. And for them to pull the offer means that they're going to, they're, they're saying, we're going to restart the process. And so I try to Say that in terms of addressing the fear. And so my second question, Kwame, is addressing the fear part. Whether we're talking about offers or anything else, there's that inner critic, there's that that says, well, how dare you negotiate? How dare you want to do more? What makes you worthy to be a high powered person to negotiate? And so what do you tell individuals who just who are battling that inner critic that may be telling them that they're not worthy to negotiate?

Well, the first negotiation we have to have with ourselves, which is sounds trite because people say that all the time, but let's actually talk about it because I think if we just ignore that voice and like push it down, it doesn't go away. We actually have to wrestle with that. So we're. Okay voice. Tell me about, tell me about this. You think I shouldn't negotiate? Let's go deeper. Well, why. We have to figure out why we have that belief and that's it's going to be different for different people. Because one of the things that I see a lot, and I see this a lot of times with women and people of color, there's a bit of survivorship bias where they say to themselves, or survivorship guilt, let me say survivorship guilt. So it's like, I have this opportunity. I know the statistics for people like me. People like me don't get opportunities like this. And then who am I to get this great opportunity and then ask for more when so many other people who are like me don't get this opportunity? So am I being greedy? And isn't it almost disrespectful for the other people who are not in this position for me to then ask for more? And so I think there's a lot of that, especially for people who are, you might be a first generation college student, for example, is like, okay, I'm the first person to even go to college. This offer right now, this offer that I have is three times more than both of my parents combined. And I'm supposed to negotiate more. That's ridiculous, right? And so we all have to figure out what is leading to the performance gap, what mindsets are leading to the performance gaps. Whenever I kind of use that as a potential point of for explanation for them, for my coach, the people that I'm coaching, and I say, hey, is this something that you're going through? And they say, yes. I say, all right, cool. So here's the way I want you to think about it. You have like an avatar for somebody else who should be doing better and you feel bad about that, Right? Well, cool. Well, how about this? You negotiate for more, and then you donate as much as you.

Absolutely.

Right. That's. That's it. You think somebody else needs some money. You. You want to help other people, fine. Then I trust you to make that decision a little bit more than the big company with deep pockets, right? And so when they change their mindset, they say, oh, I didn't think of it that way. Because if you are struggling because you're thinking about other people who are less fortunate or disadvantaged in some kind of way, you do them. You're doing them a disservice by not putting yourself in a position of power and wealth. Because if you have a position of power and wealth, then you're in a position where you could be a better advocate and help other people. Right? But instead, if. Instead I say, man, if I negotiate for 100k more, that's kind of disrespectful. Okay, well, now that. Now nobody has it, now none of us have it. Okay? You're just helping somebody else, you know? So I think it's when you start to actually engage with that voice, then you can see the flaws more clearly and you can figure out what new beliefs you need to put in place in order to lead to better performance. You read my second book. When I. When I talk about helpful fictions, right? These are beliefs that may or may not be true, but I choose to believe it because it is helpful in this situation, because it elevates my performance. Cool. I don't feel like I deserve this. Well, I'm going to then turn this into a negotiation where I'm advocating for somebody else who I do feel like deserves it, and then I'll do it on their behalf.

You know, for those of you who missed that, right? You really. If you haven't picked up on Kwame's book, listen, you really definitely need to. We're laughing. For those of you who are on video, you look at my. Look behind me next to the bottle of wine, right? That I probably. Some Kind of HR Code is Kwame's most recent book. And I gotta tell you, if you haven't picked it up, and I'm not saying it because I'm on his podcast, it is really, is really great. I picked it up and I probably. I bought it for my entire team, and there it's. It's really a good read. If you hadn't picked up on that.

Thanks, man.

Oh, no problem. Well, it's easy when it's true. You hit on something that's very personal to a lot of us, where you said that for some of us, especially minorities, people of color, people underrepresented groups in many families, we are the first white collar success story in our family. And it doesn't mean that if we had dads or mothers who work blue collar jobs or aren't successful, but that whole corporate America, first year graduate, definitely a lot of times first year advanced degrees and we get these new opportunities. What advice would you give to an individual who is going into a role and they have to be in front of people that they did not grow up around, non minorities. You know, some of our, some other colleagues that, that don't look like them and they have to, they have to negotiate legitimacy. Now they're going to be in a room full of folks that they haven't had to interact with a whole lot in terms of, in a business setting. And then again, we talk about the inner critic, that fear. So if I was one of your clients and I said, you, Kwame, look, I got this opportunity, thank God, I'm blessed. But I'm struggling to figure out how do I negotiate my legitimacy in this room to show that I belong here and not only get to the table, but stay at the table, what advice would you give me as one of your clients?

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yes. So a couple of things, let me zoom out and zoom in because we might have that fear of inadequacy, but then we also might just have that lack of comfort in this situation talking to people who are different. And so I want to zoom out real quickly and introduce the concept of cultural intelligence. And so this is your ability to flow and be fluid and operate in different cultural contexts. And so we're going to define culture broadly, so just the way that we do things in general. So we can say you're a global traveler outside the country all the time.

Right.

So you have more cultural intelligence. You end up in Rio, you end up in Poland. Wherever you happen to be, you can kind of flow. But the reason you can do that is because you have put yourself in those positions, right? And so what you need to do beforehand, and this is for everybody, put yourself in positions where you are introduced to people who are different, who have different backgrounds, different lived experiences. And again, when you think about culture with that new nuanced lens, where you're not just saying, this isn't about geography or nationality or ethnicity, this is just going in, being able to flow in different circumstances, it allows you to develop your skills in new ways. So if I go to Whole Foods, that's a different culture from Aldi's. If I go to a yoga gym, that's a different culture from a powerlifting gym, right? If I go to McDonald's, that's different from the Indian restaurant down the street. And so if you can be mindful about putting yourself in these new circumstances, it'll help you to flow in general. So that's just a more a broader cultural intelligence. Point now to the specific question. I think what we have to do is we have to recognize that in a lot of ways, for some people, I'm saying this because of me. It's like, no matter what I accomplish, I still question myself. I feel like this idea of, like, insecurities is one of life's greatest lies. We just got, when is it going to happen?

Because I feel like I've done a.

Lot and it's still not working. But one thing I did start doing is I have a brag box. So I have, like, a folder of compliments that people have given me over the course of the year. I got this idea from one of my mentors, a legal mentor called. I got this idea also from a friend. Her name is Maggie Palmer. She talks about how you can negotiate for a better compensation. And so her app is called Pep Talk. Her is designed for women, but every time you get a compliment, you put it in the app. So before a difficult conversation or an negotiation, you have a box full of your victories that you can refer to. And so for me, when I think about my compliments journal, it's. I mean, it's extensive. And the really what I say to myself is like, so, Kwame, either you're good at what you do, or there is a bizarre global conspiracy to be nice to you. And so just being able to refer to. To that evidence when I need it, I'm like, okay, I got it. And think about it. Sometimes we forget our win There are times somebody might say, oh, man, Kwame, you helped me with this back. Back in the day. Or just on that. You helped me with this. It really helped me. Right. And we might have completely forgotten about it, because with the negativity bias, we focus on the bad things more so than the good. And so if we start to have that evidence that we can refer to, it helps us to remember I do belong here. I do. I do deserve to be at this table. And then one little negotiation technique you could do, I utilize it sometimes, too. If somebody's kind of tough in a negotiation, we're trying to close a business deal or something. What is it about me that made you reach out? And in the negotiation context here, it's like, clearly, I've made it through these different rounds of interviews. What is it about me that made you want to bring me back? Because now we're starting off the conversation with them validating you, so they're proving their. The value that you have. And so it's a really easy way for them to prove to themselves the fact that you belong. And, you know, if you are in a conversation and you are trying to convince somebody that you're good enough, there's a power dynamic that is a little bit off. If you're there trying to qualify yourself, something. Something's wrong there. Because if I go into a room, pick somebody, pick a famous person. Denzel Washington. Denzel Washington isn't like, oh, hey, I've done.

Oh, we knew who you were when you walked in the room, sir.

Right, we know exactly. We knew this. When you greeted me and said, my man, I was like, I know you, right? So you don't need to prove it. But if you go into a room and you're trying to, like, list off your resume, there's a psychological understanding that the person who feels like they need to prove themselves is the person who has less power. But if you just started off kind of laying back and creating a dynamic where they are saying nice things about you, you don't need to say it about yourself. That gives you a lot more power.

I love it. And, you know, I told a colleague of mine, we went to what you and I would consider a fancy dinner party, and we were one of the few black professionals in that room. And we were getting ready to walk in, and he was like, yeah, dude, okay, here we go. We're going to. People going to confuse us with the help, right? You know, whatever. And, you know, one of the pieces of advice I gave him was just like, step one is act like you belong here, man. Don't act like a visitor. Don't you know, are we like we like to, like we like to say don't act brand new, right? Just come in and own the room just like you would. This was a room in your house. Just come in and own that. One more question. And I mean I'm trying to, I'm trying to because I want to take advantage of having you in front of me to get this non HR insight. So on my Friend in HR podcast, one of the things we're always talking to our listeners about is having a long term perspective when it comes to their careers. Not selling your soul short for another 50 cents a dollar an hour and making sure that you know your story, that your career is like a novel and each job that you hold is like another chapter within that novel. And is this something that a potential employer wants to read? And so having that long term perspective is something. We keep harping on it because far too often we make very short sighted decisions. We say, oh, another 50 cents an hour, that's going to be blah blah, blah, this amount of money. Or we turn down a supervisor job because it's no longer hourly because we don't want to give up overtime. Not realizing that. Remember that overtime is not given. You have to work more than 40 hours and that's less time with your family, with your kids or with your own passions. So again, pretending I'm a client of yours and I come to you and I say, listen, you know, I have these opportunities and I've told you like I want to grow and I want to be this big, fantastic things. But you've noticed that I keep making short sighted decisions or I'm thinking about jumping to another job again for another dollar an hour, 50 cents an hour. How do I negotiate within myself the need to forego instant gratification for that long term career fulfillment perspective that most of us try to achieve.

I love this question. And so one of the things that's really helpful when it comes to just decision making in general is perspective. Right? Let's get deeper in this. Because we're all rooted in our own perspective. That's just how brains work. But we need to find some ways to take ourselves out of this perspective so we can dig into deeper analysis. So one thing I like to do is I don't think about it in terms of the decision I'm making today. As Kwame Christian today I say, all right, when I fast forward 10 years from now, what is the decision that the future version of myself would have wished that I made today. And so right now, decision making is very emotional. And so in this moment, I'm only focused on what it is that is around me in this moment. And those are the things that are going to be weighing more heavily on my emotional disposition in this moment, too. So, for example, if I'm hungry, I'm going to make decisions based on that hunger, more so than anything. So, all right, cool. I'm driving down the street, there's a McDonald's. I'm hungry. I want all of that. 10 piece chicken nuggets, large fries, and a vanilla milkshake. You know, bro, that's a very specific.

Order, by the way.

It's very specific. There's some times where I'm like, man, I'm hungry, but this goes against my fitness goals. But I'm gonna go to McDonald's and that they have, like, they have a salad. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna order a salad. Excuse me, sir, what do you want? 10 piece nuggets. And then I just pull away, shaking my head. I'm like, man, what is wrong with me? Yeah, put myself in a position to fail. But when I talk to Kwame, 10 years older, I, Kwame of 10 years, he doesn't care about getting fried right now. He's dealing with high blood pressure because you've got fries you need to take drive two more minutes and go to Subway or Chipotle or maybe not eat anything, Right? And so when I bring him into this, the discussion, it brings another layer of analysis that is not just beholden to my current emotional state. And so I think that's really important because right now, let's bring it back to the employment decisions that we're making. All right? Yeah. I've been in this job for a year. I jumped really quickly from my last two jobs. And I don't want to create that pattern, but, man, my. My manager is really annoying me. And then Steve from the, from the other department, I told him not to do this same thing. He promised me he wouldn't. And now for the seventh time this month, he's done that, saying, I'm done with these people. I'm done. I don't care where I go. I just need to not be here so then I can talk to the older version of myself and say, well, hey, you know what? Guess what I just went through. I'm struggling to get to where I want to go because you keep on jumping around like a lunatic. So you need to stay put and Figure out a way to make this work within this organization to create a stronger narrative. And so I think when you find these different tools, these mental tools that you can bring into the decision making process, it'll make it more likely for you to have a, make a better decision. And so sometimes you just kind of have to realize that the version of myself that is today, in existence, in this moment, is not best suited to make a good long term decision. So I need to imagine a different version of myself that has different considerations and then that is what can help me to make a better decision under the circumstances.

Wow. You know what I've. What you just said really kind of applies to a conversation I most recently had with an employee that was not contributing to their, to their 401k that was, you know, that whole don't think of it you, of you now think of you in 20, 30, 40 years, that long term perspective. Because that 30, 40, 50, 60 year old self will thank you for the decision that you're making right now. And so, I mean, that's very powerful because you have to think outside. You know, I will tell you we are where we are based on the culmination of the decisions that we made up until now. Whether we're fit and we like what we see in the mirror or maybe we gained a little weight over the years, whether we've finished our degree and that's one of our goals we set for ourselves. We made excuses or whatever the case is. Remember that you are what you have accomplished or not yet accomplished is based on decision that you have made and what you prioritize. And so if you make good choices, future you, future. Kwame will thank you. And I will say about the Steves, you hop around, it's amazing. Steve has relatives, right? Steve has relatives. Because if you leave and if you leave a company to get away from Steve, trust me, every company has a few Steves. You just haven't met them yet. And so don't think you can ever escape Steve. There will always be until you work for yourself or something like that, you will always have a Steve to deal with. So, you know, always when you get ready to jump, look for another opportunity, really have that long term perspective. Is this next jump really going to propel me to where I want to be eventually in my career? That's great. I appreciate all the insight. I've taken some notes here. I'm going to definitely borrow them for my next episode here if you don't mind.

No worries, no worries. I appreciate this. This is fun. And let me put a bow on this by, by finishing the story too, because there's a really, there's a nice little plot twist to my friend who had that bad negotiation experience with that, that company that wasn't in a good position. Now she happily works for the American Negotiation Institute.

No way.

That's great.

That is so awesome.

Could you not. So again, you know, we, we fast forward now, what probably like eight years into the future, here we are. You know, it's. We have to think about the opportunities that we didn't get. A lot of times it sets you up for a better thing down the road.

Absolutely. No. And that's. I think we call it opportunity costs and things like that. You just have to, you have to take that into consideration every aspect of your career. But this has been great for me too. I love being on this side of the podcast table as well, especially when you have a great guest and things like that. But no, I appreciate the opportunity to pick your brain about some of these key aspects when we talk about the path to true career fulfillment.

Yeah, man, my pleasure. And yes, now for the people who are still listening on Negotiate anything, just before you go, man, give them a shout out for the podcast. Let them know where to get in touch.

Absolutely. So our podcast is anywhere where you get your podcast fixed. We're on Spotify, we're on Apple Play, or you can go directly on Buzzsprout and you can also follow us on Instagram. We're under, my friend in underscore hr and check out. We always have some great tidbits. Some daily. Some daily morsels of. Of HR goodness for those folks who are not in hr. But if you're interested in ide and thoughts about career fulfillment, if you're just looking for some ideas or just want to know what goes on behind the lines within hr, my friend in HR can kind of help you out in that area.

Love it. Appreciate it, brother. Thanks again for coming on the show anytime.

Looking forward to the next time.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you. And I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.