Salary Negotiation with Ben Cook: Win Your Worth

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Ben, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much. It's great to be here.

Yeah, it's great to have you, man. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Happy to. My name is Ben Cook. I'm CEO of a negotiation startup called Riva hq. What we do is salary negotiations. So basic premise is that 2/3 of people today don't negotiate salary. Main reason why is combination of they don't know how and negotiation is an intimidating, scary process for the majority of people. But the unfortunate fact is by not negotiating, people put themselves on a slower career trajectory. They settle for less today, that impacts their raise tomorrow, and so on and so forth throughout the course of their career. It ends up costing the average individual about $1 million in foregone wages or collectively about $188 billion that gets left on the table by Americans every day. That's what Riva does. We try to solve that problem, try to help end the pay gap through ending what we call a hidden negotiation gap. I came to Riva by way of some research I was doing at Harvard Business School on social media negotiation, how to negotiate in the digital age, how negotiation strategies shift when you move into a digital ecosystem. I brought that work through a bunch of lecturing and publishing at HBS and working with the US Congress to try to work break some of the gridlock that gets in the way of making popular bipartisan deals, thanks to a lot of very vocal, very angry, but in the minority people on social media.

Wow, this is quite impressive. Quite impressive. So I appreciate you joining us because the work that you're doing is very important on a number of different levels. And so listeners Ben and I Were chatting beforehand, and we're trying to figure out what angle do we go, because salary negotiation with Riva would be the obvious one. And then also thinking about, we're coming up on, as always, political season here in the US but elections are coming up, right? So we have to have those negotiations. That's important, too. But what we started to realize is that most people are. They understand the importance of negotiation, that it's an important skill, but still that logical understanding isn't enough to get them to take the step to actually negotiate. Right. And so today we're going to talk about the mindset of a negotiator and what that really means and how we can improve our mindset in a way that will then improve our ability to show up and actually have these negotiations effectively. So, Ben, when you think about mindset and you think about, like, all of the work that you've done in these various industries, what would you say is, like, the best, biggest revelation that you've realized through this process for you?

Such a good question. I think when I was working at hbs, surrounded by other negotiators, talking to people who negotiate all day, every day, I'm a negotiation nerd. I loved it. They all loved it. We were all like, negotiation is the best thing ever. Who wouldn't? It's playing chess. But in the real world, you know, all of the complexities, all the value creation that could come out of it, I'm a fan. It's what I love. It wasn't until I started doing Riva and trying to reach that group, we call them, the negotiation hesitant. And it's exactly what you described, right? These are people who. It's not that they don't know that negotiation is important. I mean, there's been such a cultural mindset shift, particularly as it relates to HAGAP and being able to advocate for yourself effectively. There's been so much cultural chatter about how it's really important to negotiate, but when it comes down to actually getting in that room and having that conversation, two thirds of people don't do it. So that was, I think, a big lesson for me to try and understand what that was, what's driving that. So we've done about 5,000. I've had about 5,000 clients come through Riva now. And I think the biggest thing that I've come to learn is that for most people, negotiation feels like conflict. They have this mental image in their mind of two people sitting on opposite sides of the table and making steely eye contact and firm handshakes. Until one person blinks. And now negotiation over it feels like an argument. People hate arguing. People hate conflict. And the last thing they want to do, particularly when it comes to, like, a job negotiation, either you're going to have to. It's a raise, and you're going to have to do this with your boss, so that sucks, or it's a new job offer and you just got out of weeks spent looking for a new job. You're nervous, you're excited. This is, you know, this whole new chapter in your life, and the last thing you want to do is what feels like put all that in jeopardy by suddenly introducing conflict. So I think most people have that mental image where negotiation is an argument. For me, that literally couldn't be further from the truth. Negotiation is about two people who have a shared goal. We always say this with hiring. At the end of the day, your shared goal is that you want to work together. Whoever you're talking to, they want to retain you. They want you on their team. Everyone's goal at the end of this conversation is for you to be teammates. So that's not a conflict situation. That's two people sitting on the same side of the table jointly. Problem solving, coming up with creative ways to get around the roadblocks that are getting in the way of a really exciting next chapter. A bunch of value creation coming together. So I think that's, for me, the biggest mindset shift is just moving from thinking, oh, negotiation is a big argument, to negotiation is about working together to overcome the barriers that stand in the way of what you both want to do.

Absolutely. Well said. Well said, because you're exactly right. It's a collaborative problem solving endeavor. And I know for me, whenever people say, well, how do you appear in a negotiation? How do you carry yourself in a negotiation? I say, listen to my podcast. I mean, the conversation, like, the tone I'm having with you, like, this is how my negotiations feel. And I think we blow this way out of proportion. And so I think a lot of listeners would say, okay, listen, I like this Ben guy, all right? I understand what he's saying. Logically, again, it makes sense. Now, you've had the opportunity to work with and serve over 5,000 clients with Riva, which is just spectacular. Kudos to you on that. And when you actually get into the minds of your clients, I'm assuming, and I might be wrong on this, Ben, so you correct me if I'm wrong, that there's still a little bit of a block sometimes where you can share that information and say, this should be problem solving. You're working toward the same goal. And they might have an intellectual understanding of what that means, but then there's still a barrier. What is that barrier?

You know, I think there is this. It's the taking the plunge moment, right? People, again, they hear me say that, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this should be problem solving. But it is literally that moment when you press send on the email, when you walk into the room and there you are and, oh, my God, I'm suddenly going to have to go through with this. So this comes up a lot, right? People will tell them, okay, your best way to build leverage is to get your existing employer to want to retain you. Maybe a couple competing offers, create a multi party bidding war. Then it's great because you don't have to be the bad guy saying, pay me more money. You're saying, I don't know, I really want to stay. I really see great opportunities in this new company. Help me make this decision a little bit easier. People get that intellectually. But then there's that moment where, oh, God, I got to actually do the thing. And I think. I think people really build it up as this thing that you either can do or you can't. It's either this, oh, there are people who can negotiate and there are people like me. And that just feels so anathema to the way I live my whole life. I never negotiate. So I think there's two things that get through to people. The first is they say, oh, I never negotiate. You're like, well, listen, are you a parent? If you have a kid, I guarantee you negotiate all the time, constantly, every day. Do you have a partner, a spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend? Guarantee there's some negotiation? Because again, it's two people with the same goal. Live harmoniously together, raise a happy kid, et cetera, et cetera. But they're roadblocks in the way. And so how you navigate around those roadblocks together is negotiation. I mean, okay, maybe it doesn't take place in a boardroom, but it's the exact same skillset. The other thing is this mentality of there are people who can negotiate and there are people who can't. One of the things we tell Reva clients all the time is, I know you're scared, you're nervous, you're intimidated to do this today, but developing this skill set is going to serve you for literally decades to come. This is not the sort of thing where you either are born as a negotiator or you're not. It's a muscle. The more comfortable you get with it, the more you do it, the more you show yourself. You prove actually in your own lived experience that negotiating doesn't backfire. People don't actually yell at you. You don't get kicked out immediately when you go talk to your boss. Actually, most of the time, people respect you more. It leads to more durable relationships. It leads to more trust because it's based on a foundation of openness and honesty and saying, here are the ways. Here are my roadblocks. Right? Here are the things that are getting in the way for me. I want to overcome them. That's the foundation for a really healthy relationship. And when people actually have that felt experience, when they take that first plunge, it gets easier and easier and easier over time. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a muscle. It's not like, you know, born with you. One day, you know, you either are or you aren't.

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Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Exactly. Well said. Well said. And I like what you said. Let me do a little bit of a summary. So the fear actually taking the plunge, right, because we all have that fear. But then there is like an elevated level of fear when it's like, oh, it's do or die right now. This is when you do it. And then people can say yay or nay. And they often say nay at that point. And I think one of the things that's tough is that nothing's really forcing you to do it. It's an option. And especially in the salary negotiation context, it would be much easier for the employ to give you an offer and you just accept it. That just makes their job easier. They save money and save time and effort. So they're not going to say, ben, are you sure you don't want to negotiate with me on this? That's just not how it happens. So we miss out on those opportunities because we don't make that decision. The Other thing is talking about the mindset. Let's go to that great book called Mindset by Carol Dweck where she talks about the differences between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset, where you, it's almost like the distinction between believing in skills versus talents. So somebody who has a fixed mindset, they say it's a talent. Either you have it or you don't. And if you're not a born negotiator, you're not going to become a negotiator. It's done. Determined at birth. But with the growth mindset, you realize, no, this is a skill that I can develop with time. And so for me, I'm a recovering people pleaser. I used to be deathly afraid of difficult conversations. And that's why I built this whole company. Because once I went to law school and discovered negotiation and, and I learned that I could actually get better at it, I became addicted and I just wanted to be able to share it with as many people as possible. Because you can improve. But I think if we stay in that fixed mindset too long, it becomes a rigid identity where it's not like I'm afraid of negotiating, but I can improve my skills and confidence and then be, and then effectively negotiate. They say I never negotiate. And they state it as if it is a stable and like static identity. I am one who does not negotiate. And so when we think about identity, a lot of times we make identity based decisions. What does a person like me do in a situation like this? Well, I'm a guy who doesn't negotiate. What are you going to do? I'm not going to negotiate. And so I think it really holds us back and we don't realize how much we are holding ourselves back in these conversations.

Totally. I, I, I, I love that. And you're totally right. Right. This is, this is textbook Carol Dweck. Right? If you have that growth mindset. Yes. This is not just a core part of my, you know, identity. This is not, there's no gene that correlates, you know, yes, you are a negotiator. No, you're not. But you know, it's really funny and what you just said, right. So you had this experience, you went to law school, you were like, oh, I can negotiate. It's really funny to me how many people, you would think based on their job experience, how many of them still have that hesitancy? We get so many clients who negotiate every day on behalf of their employer, but when it comes to advocating for themselves, oh God, no way. Couldn't do it. It's really funny how people will just put on those sort of identity based hats and then make identity based decisions. It actually brings me to one of the, the things I'm involved with on the side, which is this program to help train Congress how to negotiate more effectively. So we work with congressional members and their staff, on senior staff that are the legislative aides doing most of the work behind the scenes on basic negotiation techniques. And it was when you made that comment about identity based decisions that I think that really stuck out to me because so much of the gridlock there is people making those identity based decisions. They're saying, oh well, I am a Democrat or I am a Republican from this district and based on that identity I'm going to say yes or no categorically to any piece of legislation that looks like this when you get them. So the exercise we do is we'll try to get, we assign little negotiation exercises and we assign Republicans to play Democrat roles and we assign Democrats to play Republican roles. So they are forced to stop thinking about these issues in the way that their identity naturally would lead them to think. And instead they start looking at the negotiation process as, I mean, we make it a game. It's a little fun exercise. It's scored. You get points for winning on this issue versus winning on that issue, making trade offs. When they start thinking that way, they do so much better. They have these huge breakthroughs and everyone ends up way better off because they were able to overcome those roadblocks, work together, accomplish something. I mean, they end up better off, their constituents end up better off, the country ends up better off. But it's getting out of that. Here I am, this is my fixed identity. I'm going to make a decision accordingly and instead think about, I mean a huge part of negotiation is empathy. It's understanding the other person's point of view, what's important to them, understanding what's important to me. Mirror those things together. Hey, there's a lot of overlap. How do we make that happen? So I love that the more you can think holistically about yourself, about the other party, empathize with both, think creatively and not just go, yeah, I'm, I'm X, I'm not a negotiator, I'm a Democrat, I'm a Republican, end of story.

Exactly. And I think I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this because I think it's okay to make identity based decisions if you're using the right identity. But I think a lot of times we use the wrong identity. It's an unnecessarily limiting identity. I'll give an example. I want to make sure what I think about is if I am experiencing weakness in some way, I want to make sure there's some kind of mechanism that helps me to still make the right decision. So I recognize if I'm super emotional, I'm not thinking clearly. And so there has to be something in place that kind of overrides that. So I'll give a kind of a fun example that pulls us out of the negotiation context. So I've been traveling a lot for the next month and a half. There's a trip every single week. And airport food is not healthy. Okay? Not healthy. And I often don't schedule my days very well, where I'm, like, rushing to the airport late and then, like. Like, it's my first time every single time. And now I'm starving in an airport. And so I go past, like, these. These greasy spots, and I'm like, that oil smells delicious. Let me go get me some of that. And so I slow down and I say, think like an athlete. What would an athlete eat? If an athlete were in this situation, what food choice would they make? So, yeah, I went past the fried food, walked 10 extra minutes, got a healthy burrito bowl type of thing, right? And so that. That identity that I wanted to embrace helped me. So when I think about the difficult conversations I have sometimes with my wife, for example, I am. I'm not Kwame the lawyer. Whitney has told me she does not enjoy Kwame the lawyer. What does Kwame the loving husband do? Or when I'm with my kids, what does Kwame the patient father do? Now, in the. In the workplace, what does Kwame the negotiator do? If I see myself as a negotiator, what are the things that a negotiator would do? A negotiator, first of all, would negotiate. Let's just start there. Second of all, the negotiator would empathize because I'm not going to go in here just completely oriented toward myself and my own goals. A negotiator would start off by empathizing and understanding the other side. Right. A negotiator would actually think about how we could potentially make this a win win. Consider your goals and move in that direction. And so I think we have to think about what. Think really critically about our mindset as it relates to our identity. Which minds, which identities are serving us in the moment and which ones are limiting us. And Then how we could flex it as necessary.

I love that, I love that. You know, this I was mentioning. So when I first took over Reva, we, we built this fully automated product and it worked. It was great, right? People would use this sort of chatbot experience and it would devise their negotiating strategy, write up a customized email for them, send it off, send back. Really, really impressive from a technological standpoint. But what it didn't do was meet people where they are, empathize with them. And then I think the biggest thing, so what we moved to was a coaching based product. The biggest thing that the coaches do is they connect your negotiation to your identity, to your personal goals. And so so many people come in and they're every client, right? They're like, I don't want to be greedy. Like, I feel so money grubbing. I'm asking for more money. I'm so uncomfortable doing it. I don't want to be greedy, but it really is, it's really hard. My partner and I are wanting to start a family and we have certain financial goals we need to hit before we get there or my kids are entering high school. I see college tuition coming. I know that's going to be really expensive. I want to provide for them or even some of the cute ones I want to propose, but I got to save up for the ring. You connect it to. Here are these personal goals, Those are not selfish, greedy, money grubbing goals. Wanting to be able to put your kids through college, that is not you being some greedy jerk. This is about you being. And this is what I loved in what you just said, right? You are the father, you are the mother, you are providing for the people you care about. You are providing for the opportunity to get married. Whatever it may be, whatever your personal goal is, when you connect it back to that and then the coach can remind you that that's what you told me in our first session. So don't back down now. This isn't about you. This isn't about, oh, I'm trying to advance my career, do this, get a little bit more cash so I can buy something nice. I mean, that's fine too. But so often when you remind someone of who they are, what their goals are and what that identity is, that's going to serve them in that moment and you can reinforce it. That's when you get people to take the leap. So, yeah, what would an athlete do? Right? What would Kwame, the father do in this situation? He's going to stand up and advocate for himself so that he can put money in the banks, put his kids through school, stuff like that. Honoring that human element of negotiation. That's what really helped Reba go from this great product that worked that we couldn't give away for free, to now 5,000 negotiations and counting all the millions we've put in people's pockets. It's been a really cool process just to watch how meeting people where they are, it's almost a negotiation with the client. Right? It's been a really fun journey to watch.

That's incredible. I think it's a great example, too. Everything that you said and aside, it's just mind blowing that it didn't take off. I think that's just so fascinating. But again, we are negotiation nerds, see the world a little bit differently. I think eventually, 10, 15 years down the line, your time will come with that element of the business. But until then, human to human contact. That's what's working, and that's great to see. And I think when we think about the identity, because you brought up a really good point, and I think a lot of people in the audience could either personally identify with this, or they can at least identify somebody else who could identify with this. They can negotiate really effectively on behalf of others, but not on behalf of themselves. And I remember talking to in a presentation, and I knew the woman from before. She asked the question, and she's like, yeah, I'm not a negotiator talking about the identity, but, yeah, I just don't negotiate for myself. And I said, so you have kids, right? She said, yes. And I said, would you have trouble standing up for your kids if they needed help? Oh, no, I definitely stand up for your kids. I was like, all right, so I want you to pretend like you're negotiating on behalf of your kids. You're not negotiating for you, you're negotiating for them. And I want you to envision them throughout the negotiation. You're doing this on behalf of your children and so triggering that. Just being able to envision, like, somebody tangible that they cared about that they were advocating for. Help them to get over it.

Love that. I might steal that. I'll tell our coaches to do the visualization exercise beforehand. But it really is true. And I think there are lots of those approaches like that that can help people with the mindset. There's commitment devices. I have already gotten the job offer in. I gotta tell someone something here. Either I'm leaving or I'm staying, or I don't know, but, you know, here I am. I gotta do It. This actually comes up a lot. People get a new job and then they're terrified to tell their boss, like, listen, like, your start date is in three weeks. So gonna have to have that conversation. But yeah, even just. Well, yeah, like visualizing what you're doing it for, writing down, like I. This is an exercise we do for anchoring, right. We will get. People use a framework called wish, want, walk away. So what do you wish you would get out of this negotiation? What do you realistically want? I mean, you know, I wish that they would give me a McLaren on the side. Right. But something realistic that you wish for what you realistically think you. You want to get out of it. And where you would genuinely walk away actually physically writing those down. We usually have them, like take an actual pen and paper and write them down. Then when they get into the negotiation and the first number comes out and it's below their walk away, right. They have already gone through that process. They've already done that thing where they've written down, I will walk away if it is less than X. That sticks with them. It really does. It's. You can actually, you know, anchoring is so powerful. You can anchor yourself by writing a number down. And so anyway, I love those little moments where you can use what feel like these little tricks almost, but they actually make a huge difference because again, you're talking people right on the margins. Because people know they should negotiate and just need that little push to say yes, I actually am going to stand up for myself. I am going to walk away if it's less than that number. I'll actually give a slightly tangential example here too. This is because a lot of what we do is trying to help people who for various systematic reasons end up disproportionately unlikely to negotiate. This is women, minority groups, people who look like me, white man, pretty confident, negotiating. I'm used to saying I want this and having the world be like, yes, sir. One of the things we've been really conscious of is not just having that mindset particularly. The example I have in mind is gender in negotiation. It is true that women can be disproportionately subjected to backlash for being seen as too pushy. But there's some great research coming out of the Kennedy School. One of our advisors, Hannah Riley Bowles, has done some phenomenal work looking at things that women can do that counteract that bias. Really simple trick. We advise almost every one of our female clients to do this. You blame negotiating on someone else. Who told you you should because what that does is it frames it as you being such a good team player that you listen to the advice of your mentor, spouse, parent, friend, whoever it may be in your life that you can say, they told me I should ask more, then you could go negotiate as ferociously as you want. But that initial step to say, oh, this was someone else counteracts that bias really, really, really effectively. So it's funny how, particularly in something that's sort of as high stakes as negotiation, where a little difference can result in a big difference in outcome, little difference in the way you prepare, some of those little tricks actually go a really long way to getting people paid fairly.

Absolutely. And Ben, I'm glad you said that. And it's funny, as we talk, I'm seeing like, just a flow chart of all sorts of different podcast episodes this could turn into. Right, because what you're talking about there is negotiating through bias. And I feel like there's not enough research out there that speaks to the fact that, hey, different people are perceived differently. This is scientifically proven. So for me, in my last book, I wanted to encourage people to say, all right, listen, bias is nothing more than another strategic consideration. What are the biases that are going to be at play? And now I can work around it. So a lot of times we look at it in a. We assume a position of powerlessness where we say, ah, I'm black. They're going to be biased, biased against me. I'm a woman. They're going to be biased against me. And then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. But what we can do is we can say, hey, these are the biases that are against me. Roger that. Got it. I have strategies that I can use to overcome that, and it's really powerful. And that example that you gave is a great one, too. And I know there are going to be people out there who are saying, you know what? How about people just be less racist or less sexist? Right? And 100%, we need to have those trainings and whatnot to help people to recognize those biases. However, in the meantime, you are still responsible for taking care of yourself. And we can't just put our hands up and say, oh, the bias got in the way, and I decided not to really put forth my best foot forward. So I think this is really important that you said that. I really appreciate it.

Just to totally echo that. A big part of Reba's mission is to try and help close the pay gap. And it's funny because I'll have lots of conversations with People who totally agree with the mission, but their focus is always, oh, well, we'll change this policy, or we just got to have more awareness and advocacy about this issue. That is really important. Policy changes can have a huge role, but at the same time, those are decades down the road for us to truly achieve those things. And there are people today who. I mean, working with Reva, our average increase is 25k. That is like dollars in the pockets of human beings. They can spend them tomorrow. And for me, that's where I really get excited and get my motivation from is like, okay, let's meet the world where it is right now. And I love that. Right? Yeah. There are things working against me, but I might also be negotiating from a position where I don't have much leverage. It doesn't change the fact that I got to assess that situation realistically, think through my strategy, and then go actually do it. It's a really empowering way to think. It's a really. And this is something that I love is seeing we have clients come out of working with us, and they'll tell us that it really shifted the way they think about themselves, and they'll be like, hey, I can stand up for myself. I can advocate for more. And you sort of set them down this trajectory. We've been doing this just long enough now that we've got clients who are coming back and they're. They'll send us a note and be like, hey, just negotiated a raise for myself. Inflation's high. I deserve it. I love those stories just because I think learning that you can do something that's as intimidating as negotiating is a real proof point for yourself that, yeah, despite everything that might be working against you, meet the world where it is, plot out of strategy and get where you need to go. It's. It's really cool stuff.

Yeah, it's empowering. It reminds me of Atomic Habits by James Clear, where he talks about. When it comes to habits, you. Your identity is built up of just repeatedly doing certain things. You are what you repeatedly do. And every time you do something that reinforces an identity that you want to have, it is a vote of confidence of you as that person. So you're changing lives. It's incredible.

Yeah, I do. Really, you know. Well, yeah, totally. Right. Every. You know, it's you. You vote with your minutes. Right. You vote for the kind of person you want to be with every minute and every decision you make in that moment. But, yeah, I do. You know, I love that. You know, our impact is not measured in Hugs and rainbows. It's millions of dollars in the pockets of people. It's, it's, it's, you know, not in the pockets of, of, you know, behemoth corporations. So I love doing it. It's a lot of fun.

That's awesome.

Just mention one other thing. So. So the way we, we do our coaching is we have. We use recruiters to be the coaches because they just know all the ins and outs of hiring in their different industries. And what's so fun about it is how we've been able to scale up on their coaching side so quickly because every recruiter says, this is the most rewarding thing I've ever done. I've spent the last decade negotiating on behalf of Amazon or Google or Raytheon trying to get more money for us, less money for the people I'm working with. Now I get to switch sides. I get to sit on the other side of the table. This is meaningful. It's fun to just watch people be able to back to that kind of identity. They say, hey, I actually have a skill set that is really useful for other people, not just something I can sell on the open market. That's fun, too.

That's awesome, man. I'm happy for you. I am pumped and I'm glad that we're able to spread this to the world. And just based on the vibe I got from you and how awesome this episode, I can't wait to have you back on again. But remind the listeners again about who you are and what you do and how they can get in touch.

Yeah, absolutely. My name is Ben Cook. I'm CEO of a negotiation startup called Revahq. We're@revahq.com and yeah, we work with everyone from every background, every industry, at every level, all across the country. You only pay if it works. We charge commission only. So we only make money when you make more money. So come check us out. Reeve HQ dot com.

Love it, everybody. There will be links in the description of the episode. Ben, thanks again, man. Really appreciate it.

It's been fantastic chatting with you. I hope to be back. This is a lot of fun, a lot of really interesting things that I think we both, you know, shared mindset between the two of us. So love it.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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I'll catch you later.